View Full Version : Awful, awful naval battles......
Maleficus
03-11-2009, 02:12
Surely I can't be the only one who thinks naval battles on ETW are atrocious, can I?
When my 5th and 6th rates are being beaten by indiamen and fluyts, there must be something wrong.....
:help:
Maybe it's the fact that virtually every shot i take seems to go straight over the enemy ship, rather than into it. How am I supposed to do any damage with that happening? :furious3:
Of course, that still doesn't explain my boarding parties nearly always losing. In one recent battle, 120 men from my 5th rate were beaten by 67 from the enemy's battered sloop. I not only had the advantage of numbers, but also morale as I'd just killed their admiral. :inquisitive:
Someone tell me how that adds up. :wall:
Well, it obviously doesn't. Which is rather a shame as I was really looking forward to naval battles but, TBH, those on Sid Meier's Pirates are infinitely better, if only because it's actually possible to win them.....
Thoughts?
Naval battles get better once you get serious ships. Galleys are bugged and Fluyt/Galleons are straight up better in combat than 5th rates. It's definitely a drag that you can't play a normal naval engagement until you're at endgame tech levels -- sloops and brigs are basically useless against anything but other sloops and brigs. You would expect a trade raiding fleet to be all smaller vessels, but no, the best trade raiding fleet is ... another trade fleet.
Maleficus
03-11-2009, 02:20
Fluyt/Galleons are straight up better in combat than 5th rates.
Which is just plain wrong: according to Wiki (A reliable source, obviously :beam:) Fluyts typically carried 12-15 cannon. how a dozen guns can beat 40-odd is beyond me.
They should have just copied the Sid Meier's Pirates! system from the remake. Historically inaccurate as all hell, but unlike ETW's naval battles, they were fun :)
Murmandamus
03-11-2009, 02:43
Maybe it's the fact that virtually every shot i take seems to go straight over the enemy ship, rather than into it. How am I supposed to do any damage with that happening? :furious3:
Were you using chain shot by any chance? Chain shot gets fired up into the rigging in order to try and rip it all down. Round shot goes down into the hull, and grape shot gets aimed at deck level.
Of course, that still doesn't explain my boarding parties nearly always losing. In one recent battle, 120 men from my 5th rate were beaten by 67 from the enemy's battered sloop. I not only had the advantage of numbers, but also morale as I'd just killed their admiral. :inquisitive:
How about the fact that the defenders have a strong defensive position? From what I've seen, most of the fighting takes place below decks. Storm a building in a land battle and you also take heavy casualties. A building is a lot more open than in a ship. Once boarded they seem to be pretty much a fight to the death, so morale might not come into play.
Try using more grape shot before attempting a boarding :)
Maleficus
03-11-2009, 02:49
Were you using chain shot by any chance? Chain shot gets fired up into the rigging in order to try and rip it all down. Round shot goes down into the hull, and grape shot gets aimed at deck level.
That problem's with both chain and round.
How about the fact that the defenders have a strong defensive position? From what I've seen, most of the fighting takes place below decks. Storm a building in a land battle and you also take heavy casualties. A building is a lot more open than in a ship. Once boarded they seem to be pretty much a fight to the death, so morale might not come into play.
Try using more grape shot before attempting a boarding :)
Grape shot seems to have almost no effect. Oh, sure, it might kill 4 or 5 each time, but if I sit there pounding away at them with grape shot for ages, they just respond with round shot and sink me.
A Very Super Market
03-11-2009, 02:50
Fluyts have 42 guns for some strange reason.
Maleficus
03-11-2009, 02:55
Fluyts have 42 guns for some strange reason.
I just sent CA an email suggesting they actually do a little research next time. I doubt they'll pay any attention now that they've made their money, but it had to be said.
I think they made Fluyts fairly strong because UP lacks shipyards in the beginning of the game. And given the importance of UP's overseas possessions, this is a big deal.
I agree, naval battles are very strange right now... i hate fighting them until they are fixed in a patch. Last time i played as United Provinces, at least i think it was united provinces, i abandoned all use of any ship whatsoever except for Fluyts, which are simply amazing in battle, AND can dock at trading posts too!
Brigs and sloops get disbanded at the start of every campaign and i never recruit them afterward... what's the point?
In my first campaign as Britain i made several smaller fleets headed by a 4th rate admiral with brigs and sloops, these fleets were for pirate hunting duties. They were all destroyed.
Also, be careful when you're in the Atlantic close to the new world and all the little islands east of it that Spain/France/GB own, there's a mega pirate fleet that sails around there, a full stack of 20 ships, all of them 4th rates and galleons. They will destroy you, no matter what you bring to the battle.
Which is strange, considering that when you capture the pirate ports the only things you can built are brigs, sloops and indiamen... Makes me wonder where they acquired such a beautiful fleet of such quality ships!
Also, be careful when you're in the Atlantic close to the new world and all the little islands east of it that Spain/France/GB own, there's a mega pirate fleet that sails around there, a full stack of 20 ships, all of them 4th rates and galleons. They will destroy you, no matter what you bring to the battle.
Which is strange, considering that when you capture the pirate ports the only things you can built are brigs, sloops and indiamen... Makes me wonder where they acquired such a beautiful fleet of such quality ships!
i know its a minor point but navies are restricted to 14 ships i believe at least in my camp i could never have more than 14 ships in a stack.
Cheers Knoddy
Brigs and sloops get disbanded at the start of every campaign and i never recruit them afterward... what's the point?
It's a damn shame that there is zero incentive to ever build a brig or sloop. They really are worthless until there's some changes to the naval combat.
I took 4 sloops up against a Fluyt and got dominated. I thought I was gonna win. I was raking all over the place, but the fluyt had full green bars on port and starboard at the end of the battle. A trade ship should not be able to take 4 military vessels.
A trade ship should not be able to take 4 military vessels.
A light galley shouldn't be able to carry a full stack of troops either, but this is a game and not a historical simulation.
i know its a minor point but navies are restricted to 14 ships i believe at least in my camp i could never have more than 14 ships in a stack.
In the beginning you are restricted to 6 ships/stack. I believe the limit increases as naval infrastructure/technology increases, but it could be some other factor as well.
I saw a pirate fleet with every slot filled up, i know i did.
Murmandamus
03-11-2009, 06:21
Which is strange, considering that when you capture the pirate ports the only things you can built are brigs, sloops and indiamen... Makes me wonder where they acquired such a beautiful fleet of such quality ships!
Did pirates ever build their ships, historically? I thought they were all pretty much captured ships
When you saw all slots full, was that on the bar next to the flag or on the unit panel? The bar next to the flag doesn't show all unit slots.
Polemists
03-11-2009, 06:24
Did pirates ever build their ships, historically? I thought they were all pretty much captured ships
I think that's the point, none of us have the technology at start of the game to build those level of ships so who did they capture them from? :laugh4:
A Very Super Market
03-11-2009, 06:29
True, a light galley can't carry that many, but you could say that it was the escort for a group of transport ships with incompetent captains, making sure that they didn't all crash into each other.
The fluyt vs. 4 sloops is actually a game-breaking thing that doesn't contribute to gameplay.
I think they made Fluyts fairly strong because UP lacks shipyards in the beginning of the game. And given the importance of UP's overseas possessions, this is a big deal.
Bingo. Fluyts and Galleons are both behemoths of doom because otherwise they'd have to give Spain and UP 3rd rates or whatever in their starting lineup to allow them to realistically play a trade game. It's an understandable, if infuriating decision; although I think the better answer would have simply been giving them a bunch of special low-upkeep starting units they couldn't build again, named ships of the line from the period or whatever, to enable them to defend the trading fleets they are supposed to need to survive.
Seriously, compare the upkeep cost of a full fleets of fluyts versus their equivalent 3rd rates. Then keep in mind when your fluyts aren't annihilating squadrons of fast-attack sloops, they are making you thousands of doubloons in profit in the south pacific.
IRONxMortlock
03-11-2009, 09:36
Surely I can't be the only one who thinks naval battles on ETW are atrocious, can I?
When my 5th and 6th rates are being beaten by indiamen and fluyts, there must be something wrong.....
:help:
Maybe it's the fact that virtually every shot i take seems to go straight over the enemy ship, rather than into it. How am I supposed to do any damage with that happening? :furious3:
Of course, that still doesn't explain my boarding parties nearly always losing. In one recent battle, 120 men from my 5th rate were beaten by 67 from the enemy's battered sloop. I not only had the advantage of numbers, but also morale as I'd just killed their admiral. :inquisitive:
Someone tell me how that adds up. :wall:
Well, it obviously doesn't. Which is rather a shame as I was really looking forward to naval battles but, TBH, those on Sid Meier's Pirates are infinitely better, if only because it's actually possible to win them.....
Thoughts?
I'm afraid I have to agree; Naval combat is an unpredictable, buggy farce. The crazy formation bugs where moving one ship out of the line causes the rest of the ships to loose their minds and never be able to reform or hold a formation really sucks away the fun.
The unit strengths are stupidly unbalanced. Fighting against two gun, gunboats with a 4th rate, 5th rate, and 4 brigs/sloops results in my whole fleet sunk and gunboats withstanding 22 gun, point-blank broadsides over and over again.
You never know what you'll get. I try to use legitimate tactics (holding the weather gauge etc.) and sometimes win, sometimes loose without really knowing why. Combine that with the loading times and the result is that I'm over naval combat in this game. I auto resolve every time now. :no:
crpcarrot
03-11-2009, 10:37
is it just me or is the .ORG starting to look like the .COM site??
AussieGiant
03-11-2009, 10:44
is it just me or is the .ORG starting to look like the .COM site??
It's heading that way.
ironanvil1
03-11-2009, 10:48
Naval battles are a farce as it stands.
I had three 2nd Rates with a good admiral wiped out by 4 Galleons and 2 Fluyts :wall:
I also seem to have gun crews who always aim over the enemy ship while the AI uses special ship-homing cannonballs.
The only use I've found for sloops and brigs is suicide boardings so they blow up and take an enemy ship with them. Not, I believe, a standard naval tactic of the period.
Maleficus
03-11-2009, 12:48
is it just me or is the .ORG starting to look like the .COM site??
Maybe it wouldn't if CA had got it right........
batemonkey
03-11-2009, 13:19
Well i love them and i've not found controling them too difficult. Although it is a challenge
If you plan it right you can roll the enemy's line right up.
If i'm outnumbered i don't really try and capture untill the odds are better
Brigs and sloops are quite useful for chasing down fleeing ships
It's a damn shame that there is zero incentive to ever build a brig or sloop. They really are worthless until there's some changes to the naval combat.
I wouldn't say that.
I found brigs to be very useful if you need a quick fleet.
They only take one turn to build and if you got multiple shipyards you can build a big fleet up in no time.
Sure it wouldn't be the world's most powerful fleet but enough to keep medium fleets at bay.
is it just me or is the .ORG starting to look like the .COM site??
At least nobody's threatened to sue CA.
Yet.
IRONxMortlock
03-11-2009, 14:02
is it just me or is the .ORG starting to look like the .COM site??
Because being a member of the org requires us to mindlessly ignore and deny all discussion and description about issues with Total War games? :inquisitive:
AussieGiant
03-11-2009, 14:07
No but the level of tolerance and some ability to appreciate the scope of the project would be nice.
You don't generally accomplish too much in life by simply slating people or organisations off.
No but the level of tolerance and some ability to appreciate the scope of the project would be nice.
I appreciate and like the game, and still think highly of CA. But some of these issues are facepalmers. I only hope it is the fault of Sega demanding it get out the door, because otherwise I would feel slapped in the face by CA. So I think some level of intolerance is appropriate as well.
So when we're discussing these issues, do we need to include a caveat everytime so that you feel it's more balanced?
"This game is awesome and I love CA, but I beg them to please bless us with a working game. Thank you o mighty CA pleasedonthurtme."
You don't generally accomplish too much in life by simply slating people or organisations off.
Really? Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh don't agree with you. Among many others.
Some people prefer to see the glass half empty, i prefer to see half full.
After years of requesting naval battle for TW we finally get it. Sure the system is flaw but it is a start, hopefully patches and mods will correct the balance.
AussieGiant
03-11-2009, 14:47
@ Dogfish,
Please don't quote Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh as something of a counter point to my comment.
I said you don't accomplish too much, not nothing...but the consequences of their behaviour are clear for most people to see. Because, even if you do agree with a point they raise, their delivery and behaviour can be so ridiculous that it put most neutrals off to a greater degree.
As to the main point:
I certain don't think we should swing to the opposite position that you quote as an example.
"This game is awesome and I love CA, but I beg them to please bless us with a working game. Thank you o mighty CA pleasedonthurtme." That was certainly not my point.
You're quite right, some things are big face slappers, but as long as CA is acknowledging things and is moving in the direction of addressing the issues, then constructive conversation to highlight and provide meaningful assistance seems like a better contribution.
Fisherking
03-11-2009, 14:48
At Ease! Gentlemen,
No personal arguments please!
It gets emotional when things aren’t going well, I know.
Some of us take the problems with the game a bit harder than others.
CA knows there are issues and there is another patch due next week.
There may be some other things in the works on some things….
Stick to the game discussion and no personal attacks or the thread could be threatened.
Try to envision the problem and what reasonably should be done about it, and give it some thought.
Not…Its broke, fix it!
Now take a deep breath and carry on.
NagatsukaShumi
03-11-2009, 15:05
As I have stated before, numerous times, generally CA get stick for things which aren't necessarily CA's fault.
Publishers set deadlines which are expected to be fulfilled, CA have to get a game as playable for that date as is humanly possible, which is probably why so many patches are forthcoming at such short notice.
It is the same on every fansite for every game though in fairness, the publisher normally recieves far less flack than the developer.
@ Dogfish,
Please don't quote Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh as something of a counter point to my comment.
I said you don't accomplish too much, not nothing...but the consequences of their behaviour are clear for most people to see. Because, even if you do agree with a point they raise, their delivery and behaviour can be so ridiculous that it put most neutrals off to a greater degree.
Sorry about that... I just thought they were two really good examples of people whom are considered successful by doing nothing but panning other people and cultures. But that's really irrelevant to this thread or ETW.
As to the main point:
I certain don't think we should swing to the opposite position that you quote as an example.
"This game is awesome and I love CA, but I beg them to please bless us with a working game. Thank you o mighty CA pleasedonthurtme." That was certainly not my point.
You're quite right, some things are big face slappers, but as long as CA is acknowledging things and is moving in the direction of addressing the issues, then constructive conversation to highlight and provide meaningful assistance seems like a better contribution.
I agree, it is more constructive. To some degree, however, threads like this aren't as much about helping CA move in the right direction (they probably will not read or see this thread) as much as a little bit of venting about a game that many feel is unfinished (with other people having similar frustrations), which is at least a small part of what communities like this are about. Sharing joys, sharing pain, sharing stories.
Anyway, hopefully CA will be able to get the naval battles up to ours, and probably their own, expectations. They are but a little zygote at the moment, and need much development before they are ready for battle.
I just thought they were two really good examples
I'd consider them more warnings than examples.
Hosakawa Tito
03-11-2009, 15:54
Do you find that your Admiral picks up negative traits for withdrawing, even from an unfavorable matchup?
AussieGiant
03-11-2009, 16:16
Dogfish,
I agree with you mate. "Stick" (Australian for constructive criticism) needs to be given to CA but at the moment it's tough to read the general level of negativity sometimes.
On occasion I just try to ask for a little more balance as I'm sure CA people do read through these threads. When they do, a good solid level of information and a critique that's well thought out and gets to the meat of the issue will solve "our" issues much better.
Apologies if we got a little side tracked :2thumbsup:
I'm just hoping they get through their stability patches as fast as possible so they can get their resources focused on the naval topic as a whole. It's the first time they've done it so it's clearly an area they need to focus on.
I just hope we are "careful for what we wish for." Because if they get a patch out that solves most of the naval theatre issues at one time we could all have our hands pretty full. :yes:
I can see the following list in my mind from reading all the posts to date:
In-theatre troop distribution
Intra-theatre troop distribution
Trade route issues
Trade region issues
Invasion possibilities
Battle tactics and ship balancing
If all that was handled in one patch we might all wonder if a nuke just hit us.
I can see the following list in my mind from reading all the posts to date:
In-theatre troop distribution
Intra-theatre troop distribution
Trade route issues
Trade region issues
Invasion possibilities
Battle tactics and ship balancing
If all that was handled in one patch we might all wonder if a nuke just hit us.
If all that was in one patch I would probably hurt myself with as many celebratory backflips as I would be attempting. Mind you, I've never done a backflip. But that's just how excited I would be.
Good list summary of the major naval issues.
Maleficus
03-11-2009, 16:43
Dogfish,
On occasion I just try to ask for a little more balance as I'm sure CA people do read through these threads. When they do, a good solid level of information and a critique that's well thought out and gets to the meat of the issue will solve "our" issues much better.
Well, IMO all they need to do with regards to naval issues is:
1. Adjust certain ships to make them more historically accurate in terms of firepower, speed and maneuverability. (trade ships, mostly).
2. Tweak the combat system to make it actually possible to hit the enemy when you shoot at them.
3. Tweak the ships' crews' abilities so that crews of trade ships skills in melee are inferior to naval personell.
There's also some more cosmetic changes that I would like to see, but as long as they make the three I've listed, I'll be a happy bunny.
I hope either by mod or patch that we get the ability to have more realistic naval battles. That's really my biggest hope. No sailing upwind, no anchoring in open ocean, no stopping and turning on a dime. No turning into the wind.
Maybe make the "rotate" functionality control rudder instead, and it sticks at the angle that you leave it at.
Allow the user to set the speed of grouped formations with the sail +/- buttons like you can with individual ships.
Sid Meier's Pirates feels more realistic than ETW at times, especially with the effect of wind.
Good thing I'm on turn 11-12 of my United Provinces game so far. I've been building brigs and now starting some 6th rates after capturing Flanders.
Guess I should just build fluyts since I'm having problems with Spain's galleons. I've been kinda cheesing them so far. What I do is sail all my forces quite a bit away from the galleons. Then I sink the accompanying sloops and brigs since the galleon is so much slower than them. The galleon usually arrives when the Spanish sloops and brigs are almost dead. Then I kinda cheese the galleon as much as I can. I'm running away in front of them, turning to fire, then turning to run away again. Since the galleon is slower, I'm always outside its range. Of course, it takes forever to beat one this way.
As for fluyt spamming, I'm already getting close to where using a fluyt as a trade ship is not worth it. I'm getting diminishing returns now, and the next ones I make are barely worth more than 150.
A Very Super Market
03-12-2009, 00:08
Ignoring the more important arguments here, I want to tell you guys to just stop using manual broadsides.
Honestly, the auto-aiming does a much better job of it, and it takes SO much micromanaging that you'll get carpal tunnel if you keep using it.
Maleficus
03-12-2009, 00:15
I just tried using the auto fire in a battle only to find that it didn't actually fire at all.
A Very Super Market
03-12-2009, 00:27
When the field of fire cone passes onto an enemy ship, they will fire. Or not, if they're reloading.
Ignoring the more important arguments here, I want to tell you guys to just stop using manual broadsides.
Honestly, the auto-aiming does a much better job of it, and it takes SO much micromanaging that you'll get carpal tunnel if you keep using it.
The manual broadsides just seem gimmicky to me. Even the intro video doesn't show ships doing broadsides as they are in-game, it was a linear progression down the ship.
So many times I've raked an enemy line, tried doing the manual broadsides, and just the middle 20% of the shot will hit the ship due to how it fires off in a perfectly spaced line along the full length of my ship, which is obviously longer than the enemy ship is wide. With the auto-aiming they would point inwards focused moreso on the target.
My question with it at this point is if there is some sort of a damage bonus applied if a cannonball hits when fired from a manual broadsides in order to encourage use of that feature. I hope not, but I can't rule it out, either. I'm starting to feel like they made some poor concessions in gameplay in the name of "accessibility", as Empire is one of CA's most "mainstream" releases. Just look at the marketing behind it, those banner ads were everywhere. Design choices based on "accessibility" often turn off the hardcode fanbase to which the success of a series like Total War is founded upon.
Zenicetus
03-12-2009, 01:05
You never know what you'll get. I try to use legitimate tactics (holding the weather gauge etc.) and sometimes win, sometimes loose without really knowing why. Combine that with the loading times and the result is that I'm over naval combat in this game.
There's no point in trying to use the weather gage when wind and sailing are modeled as an arcade game, where ships can sail directly upwind, use 360-degree circling maneuvers, etc.. CA removed the one thing that would have imposed some order on the battle -- the "no go" zone of sailing directly upwind (or even at a modest angle to the wind direction with a square rigger), which would force both the AI and the player to use actual sailing maneuvers instead of steering around like powerboats. It sounds like there are some other glitches happening with respect to gunfire and so on, but that's the main reason the battles are so chaotic and unpredictable.
I auto resolve every time now. :no:
How is that working? Do auto-resolved battles seem reasonable, based on stats comparison of forces? Or is there either a penalty or exploit for the player when sea battles are auto-resolved? I've been waiting to hear about that before buying the game, since I'm not interested in arcade game sea battles, and it's too early to tell if either CA or the modders can improve them.
A Very Super Market
03-12-2009, 01:14
Auto-resolve is surprisingly fair. There is the occasional upset battle (I've only seen one happen, and it just meant that I took slightly more casualties than they did), but it is completely intentional.
Callahan9119
03-12-2009, 02:00
how do you have like 90 posts in less than 10 days
2. Tweak the combat system to make it actually possible to hit the enemy when you shoot at them.
Or at least take the ship-homing cannon balls away from the AI. I find when you sail right next to a ship and fire a fully loaded broadside the accuracy is quite satisfactory, but the damage is extremely lacking, especially when galleys only lose 1 crew member and 2% hull damage from a full point blank 4th rate broadside rake.
The AI doesn't have that problem however, when they give you a full broadside volley from point blank range they savage your ship, even if their ship is inferior in quality to yours, or of the same quality.
Combat from further away, the AI ships definitely have accuracy boosts against you, and more of their cannon balls will hit your ships than your cannon balls theirs, even if your ships have a higher accuracy stat than theirs.
So, the two most important things there i'd say are to balance the ship stats and take away the accuracy and damage bonuses the AI seem to have.
Haha, yeah, the OP is a pretty prolific poster. Most impressive.
I've been posting more since I'm not playing the game for a while. It's almost like the period pre-release, except my hype level is inversed. Actually fired up the game earlier, but quit before I had ended one turn -- holding off till the AI is fixed.
Sir Beane
03-12-2009, 02:55
how do you have like 90 posts in less than 10 days
Pfft. Depending on the day you can easily post upwards of 30 posts if you have enough free time :tongue:.
What naval battles need is a properly functioning weather guage that can add a sense of order into the battle. And prevent silly tactics and motorboat-like movement.
Gooseman321
03-12-2009, 06:57
The naval battles are a jumbled mess for sure.
Clicking on enemy ships to attack often sends your own ships crashing into each other.
The broadside system causes too much micro management because you can't queue attacks
for multiple ships at once and it doesn't automatically reload the broadside.
This means (For me at least) that i have to click all the ships over and over again in order
to fire broadsides. This alone is tedious enough for the naval battles to be downright annoying.
The campaign AI is stupid and essentially does nothing but sit there. It seems as though a set script
isn't even worked out for each faction.
IRONxMortlock
03-12-2009, 07:41
How is that working? Do auto-resolved battles seem reasonable, based on stats comparison of forces? Or is there either a penalty or exploit for the player when sea battles are auto-resolved? I've been waiting to hear about that before buying the game, since I'm not interested in arcade game sea battles, and it's too early to tell if either CA or the modders can improve them.
It actually seems quite good. Trade ships (galleons especially) are probably still a bit too powerful in auto-resolve but nothing compared to when you try to fight them yourself in frigates. Basically the naval combat stopped becoming fun so auto-resolve saves me a lot of time and frustration. I recommend it to those who are having a similar experience.
I cancelled my Pirates of the Burning Sea subscription at Empire Total War's release. I love the naval combat here. Pirates of the Burning Sea is all about simulating ship combat but they never simulated structure damage, and instead just used hit point system like a RPG. Here in ETW I get to deal lucky shots that desmast a flag ship even when I'm using ball shots because some idiot gunner aimed too high. I get to blow up a rated ship with a galley because a cannon ball hit the powder room. These things really spice things up. Although I wish the galley/bomb ketch/rocket ship line were reduced in availability.
Although I wish the galley/bomb ketch/rocket ship line were reduced in availability.
galley fair enough, but im halfway through my grand camp, i only just got the tech to build the dock to train bomb ketchs n rocketships and i still havnt researched rockets? and im ahead of everyone in tech, how are they too available O.o
PrimeChaosVC
03-12-2009, 10:31
The naval battle system is the same as the Old Naps game Imperial Glory, it was totally brought over from that game except it has better ai to help minimise micro management, definately better than sids mayers pirates, I think all CA need to do is fine tuning the stats of the ship to make naval battle more playable.
I can see the following list in my mind from reading all the posts to date:
In-theatre troop distribution
Intra-theatre troop distribution
Trade route issues
Trade region issues
Invasion possibilities
Battle tactics and ship balancing
Also boarding/capturing ships is very iffy. 9 times out of 10 they just surrender, but in order to be in the position to board, they already need to be heavily damaged and probably on the brink of surrendering anyway. And if they surrender during the melee, you don't actually capture the ship.
IMO if you board a ship and they give up, you should get the capture. It seems like you have to kill every last man aboard the enemy ship without them surrendering, and that's a little nutty. :thumbsdown:
crpcarrot
03-12-2009, 11:35
edited cos it was supposed to have a quote but cant be arsed to reply to it anymore
Fisherking
03-12-2009, 11:36
Also boarding/capturing ships is very iffy. 9 times out of 10 they just surrender, but in order to be in the position to board, they already need to be heavily damaged and probably on the brink of surrendering anyway. And if they surrender during the melee, you don't actually capture the ship.
IMO if you board a ship and they give up, you should get the capture. It seems like you have to kill every last man aboard the enemy ship without them surrendering, and that's a little nutty. :thumbsdown:
I agree with that.
If the boarding action caused the morale to drop it should be credited as a capture.
However, you as the winner should receive all ships that strike anyway, and that more than credit for the capture is what is important.
If that area in naval combat is flawed, then that is what needs set to rights.
There are ships which seem very over powered, that much is clear. CA has always made some units almost super human. It could be good if it is addressed. Particularly the galleys being unhitable. It does not have to be easy, just possible, especially with their extreme lethality. With the other ships it may be that they have very strong hulls.
The other issue I see is with the formations not working exactly as they should.
When ships are pulled out of line, by any occurrence, the ships should at least try to regain their stations and spacing in line.
When formations are changed the ships should flow smoothly, or as much as possible, into the new formation and not turn in unpredictable directions.
There should also be a turn about function for the ships to, as a formation change course 180°.
As it stands now, ships in the line ahead formation fair best as long as they don’t become entangled with the enemy or other ships. At that point everything goes to pot. Faster ships in the line do not reposition them selves but leave gaps which could be closed up. Ships nose to tale don’t spread out either and if a ship leaves the line it just leaves a hole which can only be fixed by manually repositioning each ship, and some times when you regroup the line you still get an unpredictable result.
None of this is major when considered point for point, but when combined it can render the naval combat too frustrating for some people.
It need improved upon to make it an enjoyable experience for all. Not easy, just enjoyable.
HKDDJulker
03-31-2009, 21:25
I have been having some issues with naval combat as well, not the least of which is a quite healthy ship suddenly sinking. Sometimes, they just sink, sometimes they take 1-2 hits. But its frustrating, because the hull will still be green, then suddenly, Bam, ship is surrendered and sinking. :wall: I don't know if its just against fluyts and galleons, but that is typically what I'm fighting against...
This last time, my mostly fine (green hull) Admiral's 5th rate was chasing down a Fluyt and the dang dutch fired 2 aft guns at me. next thing you know, ship is sinking, admiral is dead. You know, since it was sinking so slowly, couldn't my admiral just hop in a life boat? Hell, i'd settle for allowing one of my ships to pull up next to the sinking ship and rescue some crew.
Fluyts kill 4th rates dead. It seems that I'm losing about 1 ship a battle because somebody used papermache on the hull instead of wood...
Perhaps on VH battle difficulty, the enemy has a higher chance of a crazy kill shot? If that is what i'm dealing with, then :thumbsdown:
Warhammer3025
03-31-2009, 22:30
Yea, i know i suck at naval battles but when my 3rd rates are unable to tear apart galleys after 2 raking passes then it gets rather old and annoying.
Also once you tech up to naval hospitals and build up a sizable battle fleet there isnt a point to fighting anymore since you'll be facing mostly crap brigs and sloops with the occasional trader so its autocalc all the way.
In the early game when everyone only has the initial starting ships it really does get quite annoying that my guys cant seem to do damage despite raking em multiple times whereas on a single fleeting pass the enemy is able to knock my ass down to the yellow. Does playing on H really give them that MUCH of a bonus :furious3:
Marquis of Roland
03-31-2009, 22:51
Fluyts kill 4th rates dead. It seems that I'm losing about 1 ship a battle because somebody used papermache on the hull instead of wood...
Perhaps on VH battle difficulty, the enemy has a higher chance of a crazy kill shot? If that is what i'm dealing with, then :thumbsdown:
Yea on high difficulties you pretty much have to get in 3 or 4 broadsides for every one the AI gets in. Experience makes your reload time faster. I also notice they get higher percentage of "critical" hits (i.e. below the waterline, gunpowder magazine, etc.). Thus maneuverability is a bigger factor at H or VH. Even if you're ahead by 10 guns or so you still can't afford to go toe to toe with an equivalent class ship.
Fluyts do have an unusually strong hull. They're not very fast though so with a 5th or 6th rate you can outmaneuver it (or even a 4th rate). I once sunk a 4th rate in a 6th rate by outbroadsiding the AI 5 to 1 (I wanted to recreate HMS Lydia vs. the Trinidad lol).
BTW when you autocalc against weaker ships sometimes you'll still end up losing 20-30 men on a few of your ships (even ships of the line). If you play it out you might lose 4 or 5 men in your entire fleet, but it does get old lol.
I would just like to know why enemy surrendered ships (with masts) are not captured after the end of the battle. The post battle stuff, along with boarding seems really pathetic.
I have also made the mistake of taking on on a Fluyt with a Brig and getting my arse handed to me.
Mind you I realised I was in trouble right from the start. This so called Fluyt, had 42 guns on two guns decks and was manned by pirates. It actually looked like a 3rd Rate not a merchantman, and I sure as hell was not planning to try and board it.
I've actually fought against pirates in the service of Morrocco during my Ottoman camapign and their melee ability is amazing.
antisocialmunky
04-01-2009, 03:41
Fluyts are scary. Also, I would formally like to request a pirate mod where you get to play as the pirates. :)
I wonder if the odd AI homing cannonballs are an effect of VH difficulty. I did not have this trouble with M/M (my test game) and H/H (my current game). I heard VH is giving AI units a large unit stat bonus, so I steered away from it.
I really hope they can make the AI better in hard games without giving unit stat bonuses (maybe some small morale boost could be ok).
CavalryCmdr
04-01-2009, 08:22
The AI arty (both land and sea) get some serious accuracy bonuses on hard and just plain silly on VH.
I've found manual broadsides to be much better at long range then close up, I've even had some luck with Sloops, bring them just within range of a manual broadside then skedaddle. Unfortunately mess up once and let the AI shoot back and it's pretty much over, and it takes forever for their pathetic fire-power to cause any notable damage.
The mechanics of sea battles is ok, IMO, but it almost seems as though once they got them working the way they wanted they never went back and "polished" it (including, most notable, unit balancing.) That being the case it would seem to indicate they just plain ran out of time.
1) just to point out to all the people frustrated that they don't capture surrendered ships - the workaround is that if you continue the battle, you'll get them.
2) i am not very good at naval battles (play on H/H) but the key point in starting to enjoy them was not to bother with manual broadsides, or with brigs/sloops at all until i feel more confident in the combat system.
3) two groups of line astern seems manageable. the wind IS important enough to influence deployment and pre-engagement maneuvering, but i haven't worked out a quick way to reverse the line.
4) my first pass with the first group is always round shot - and depending on damage/guns left/enemy ship type i'll switch to chain and keep hammering with that until they have little maneuverability. only then switch to grape and board if you want. my last couple of battles was the first time i've successfully boarded whilst a battle was still going.
5) if outclassed, only use round shot.
there was a decent thread at twc (!) on naval tactics, but probably impossible to find now amongst all the rage and bluster, i have found it's been quite fun feeling my way through learning this stuff (no knowledge of naval battles at all)
I don't know what all the fuss is about - is it me or are most of you who are whinging about you never being able to hit ships and the like ..... simply doing it wrong?
I never have those kind of problems :inquisitive:
Don't use broadsides unless you're very close and going broadside to a ship (d'uh) and if you really must go broadside to a ship - do it to a smaller ship. (I'd recommend just DON'T)
Always keep out of the enemy's arc of fire. Sounds obvious but you guys are whinging about the enemy having homing cannon balls. For one, they're not stupid enough to use broadsides at range and secondly - why the hell are you letting the enemy fire on you? :idea2:
Don't click attack on enemy ships - they get confused and surely it's much better to do the manouvring yourself?
Use ALT-click to concentrate fire
Use chainshot - have you tried demasting an entire fleet? It's easier than you might think and then makes mopping them up a doddle.
All you have to do is position your ships where the enemy is in range and your gunners will take care of the rest. How hard can it be?
Honestly, I can't remember the last naval battle I lots, and I'm including taking on 4-5 galleons with a single Fluyt here. Tactics, tactics, tactics. I do get tired of people crying "brokend game" when in reality they're just no good at it.
Just my two cents :idea2:
Grumfoss
04-01-2009, 11:48
Just to add another point, if you are trying to make a double line to increase your fire power.
To ease micromanagement, place your ships in the the correct positions and then select the whole fleet and create a single group. As long as you don't try to do really tight turns the dfleet will stay together quite well. This works better than having two individual groups.
Happy sailing ~:)
crpcarrot
04-01-2009, 14:43
I don't know what all the fuss is about - is it me or are most of you who are whinging about you never being able to hit ships and the like ..... simply doing it wrong?
I never have those kind of problems :inquisitive:
Don't use broadsides unless you're very close and going broadside to a ship (d'uh) and if you really must go broadside to a ship - do it to a smaller ship. (I'd recommend just DON'T)
Always keep out of the enemy's arc of fire. Sounds obvious but you guys are whinging about the enemy having homing cannon balls. For one, they're not stupid enough to use broadsides at range and secondly - why the hell are you letting the enemy fire on you? :idea2:
Don't click attack on enemy ships - they get confused and surely it's much better to do the manouvring yourself?
Use ALT-click to concentrate fire
Use chainshot - have you tried demasting an entire fleet? It's easier than you might think and then makes mopping them up a doddle.
All you have to do is position your ships where the enemy is in range and your gunners will take care of the rest. How hard can it be?
Honestly, I can't remember the last naval battle I lots, and I'm including taking on 4-5 galleons with a single Fluyt here. Tactics, tactics, tactics. I do get tired of people crying "brokend game" when in reality they're just no good at it.
Just my two cents :idea2:
hehehe i so agree with your last comment. it seeme people would rather waste time typing a rant instead of trying to lear how things work. i'm not saying this game is perfect but maybe all if arnt just bugs. any everything is hard until how you learn how to do it.
back on topic i am no expert in naval battles but i do win most of the time but i dont expect to win with no casualties just cos my ship has x amount of guns more than the enemy.
what does Alt + click do?
Anyone who read C.S. Forester or Alexander Kent, will know that the best place to fire a broadside is into the enemies stern. Not only is it the weakest part of the ship, it also happenes to be where most of the officers stand and where the steering gear is located.
Of course being able to do that requires considerable seamenship and tactical awareness, but crossing an enemy stern and firing a boradside into it does work in ETW. And if the enemy ship is disabled then just sitting off their stern and firing boradside after broadside will eventually defeat any ship regardless of its relative size.
On a more expliotative note, I've noticed that in ship to ship actions the AI rarely thinks of changing tack in order to bring its other broadside to bear. Which means that if your clever enough you can almost double the weight of shot you fire at him simply by changing tack immediatley after unloading one broadside and reloading whilst you fire the other one.
Grumfoss
04-01-2009, 19:46
what does Alt + click do?
Pressing ALt+Right Click on an enemy ship makes the ship a priority target and all ships that have a firing arc on it will fire at it.
killing it off quicker ~:)
Warhammer3025
04-01-2009, 22:58
I need to watch some vids of the better naval commanders here. I mean for the life of me i just cant seem to win battles i should win or take casualties on cakewalks. I mean too many battles i've knocked enemy ships to the red zone on the hull and they still keep sailing confidence steady as can be (and sometimes i knock a hull ALL off and they're STILL AFLOAT returning accurate fire) while my pansies start surrendering or sinking the second they take a coupla cannonballs oftentimes when both sides hull are still GREEN. And no, i'm not gettign raked left and right, i cross the T on the AI plenty of times to little effect and when they get a hits on me and my guys are wavering on the brink of retreat or surrender.
I feel like i'm playing Rome naval battles again. Run away unless the odds are SERIOUSLY in my favor for a autocalc.
HKDDJulker
05-22-2009, 15:40
GAHHH
I Just played a naval battle during turn 1 or 2 of british grand campaign H/H. An allied dutch fleet attacks some pirates, and I decide to join the battle. This means the my ships (5th rate admiral, 6th rate, brig and 2 sloops) enter as reinforcements. My ships enter the map, and I immediately notice that each of my sloops, although they have never been in combat are down to 17/18 cannons, and 32/35 crew. Unfortunately, my admiral decided to enter the battle at the very bottom edge of the map, completely downwind, and so my ships aren't even halfway to the fight before its over. Whats more, as i'm watching my fleet sail ever so slowly towards the battle, I watch a sloop drop from 17 to 16 guns. ?!?!:wall:
End results: A Pirate Fluyt is running away, and their sloop has surrendered, while the dutch 5th rate is chasing the fluyt. I decided to click "continue the battle" to see if my sloops could possibly catch up with and then capture the fluyt before it escaped. A minute or two on 4x speed showed me that they would never catch the fluyt before it was gone, so I ended the battle manually. Post battle results show both of my sloops at 8/18 cannons, and almost no hull left. This is infuriating.
Turn 2, no combat, down 2 half ships. i'd love an explanation, but I'd prefer never have to deal with this silliness again.
I know others have experienced the same thing, this is my second time seeing it.
Turbosatan
05-22-2009, 16:58
A minute or two on 4x speed showed me that they would never catch the fluyt before it was gone, so I ended the battle manually. Post battle results show both of my sloops at 8/18 cannons, and almost no hull left. This is infuriating.
Turn 2, no combat, down 2 half ships. i'd love an explanation, but I'd prefer never have to deal with this silliness again.
I know others have experienced the same thing, this is my second time seeing it.
If I am reading you correctly, I can only echo what hundreds of others have said:
"Quitting the battle does incur penalties." Harsh but fair IMO. The way to prevent this -- if you cannot finish off the fleeing foe -- is to let the clock run down.
If you "continue the battle" then quit it (rather than letting the clock run down) you will incur penalties. I take it this is to stop people exploiting the game system somehow, or that CA just forgot to turn off the "penalty for quitting the battle" option for those encounters that the player has already won.
But again: you quit the battle before it ended & therefore incurred penalties. Why oh why would you assume that you would not incur a penalty?
I know others have experienced the same thing, this is my second time seeing it.
Can't say I've ever noticed this myself, though I haven't really been looking for it either.
Its difficult to see what justification there would be for cannons being destroyed before your ships had even been fired at. Storm damage might affect the sails or even the hull but not a cannon.
Other possibilities that spring to mind....(totally non-serious)
a) The crew threw it overboard to try and lighten the ship in the hope of catching that elusive flying fluyt.
b) The crew removed it from the broadside and levered it round to supplement the bow chasers in the hope the extra firepower might come in handy during a stern chase.
HKDDJulker
05-22-2009, 18:35
I guess I assumed that the penalties would make some sort of sense. Where is the logic in severely damaging 2 ships that had no hope of reaching combat?
Why would the penalty be anything else than not capturing the ship?
ugh. its only 2 sloops but damned if i can figure out why the player should be punished for not sitting on their thumbs for another 10 minutes while everyone flees upwind.
Marquis of Roland
05-22-2009, 21:00
That's why I never click continue no matter what lol
Fisherking
05-22-2009, 21:46
I always click continue! Never have a problem…I just know that it doesn’t end until the enemy is off the map and I am not quitting the battle early.
The continue is where you get most of the prize ships.
Marquis of Roland
05-22-2009, 22:36
Most times I'm lucky to find a teacup left floating in the water after a battle, let alone an actual ship...
Probably should lay off on the roundshot :laugh4:
I've been having quite good luck collecting free trade ships off the Dutch in my Spanish Campaign.
Obviously, not something to try in an evenly match fire fight. But if victory is more or less certain anyway I find using dismantling shot to the dismast the enemy ship and then switching to round shot and basically sailing back and forth across the bow or stern of the enemy ships until they strike will bag me the majority of their fleet as prizes.
I did try using grapeshot in the hope of limiting the damage I did to my prizes, but I found that the Dutch were quite happy to die as long as I didn't damage the paintwork, so I gave up using the grape and just resorted to blowing holes in them until they struck.
The trick I've found is to start the battle to windward of the enemy fleet and run down on them so that you can choose your angle of approach and make sure you cross their 'T' as you close. This inflicts maximum sail damage on their lead ships and your can then take down the others as they struggle to close the distance against the wind.
Once most of their masts are down slipping down to leeward will allow you the flexibility to choose the distance you want to engage them and you can easily wear-ship to sail back and forth across their bows as they try and close the range using handkerchiefs and bowspits.
If your clever and patient they rarely manage to get a shot off at you once their masts are down.
Fisherking
05-23-2009, 13:11
I do not often use British tactics of get close and hammer it out.
I like to take out sails.
I have even had some great victories just using a couple of sloops and perhaps a 6th rate. I find brigs weak and worthless. Sloops do a better job with fewer but stronger guns.
It usually goes better when the enemy has the wind and full sails. And I do place my ships in the corners and angle across. It works well.
When the follow the fast little ships, you can usually turn and get off a shot, then run a little and turn again.
They may try to get a shot at you but if you watch close you can usually escape without damage.
I have not gone against the Indiamen lately with just sloops and I think they may have beefed them up.
Before they were more like gnats and easily picked off by a frog on a log with a slingshot…
Hosakawa Tito
05-23-2009, 13:38
What I would like to see fixed is being able to give ship groups sail commands *full sail, half sail, etc..* instead of having to click on each individual ship in my line formation to make these changes. When I have the weather gage I want to slow my formation down when in position and firing range. The default setting for sails in the group is always full sail and can't be changed as a group. Makes larger naval battles a real click fest, and an eventual fur ball.
What I would like to see fixed is being able to give ship groups sail commands *full sail, half sail, etc..* instead of having to click on each individual ship in my line formation to make these changes.
I agree that needs to be sorted. But just for the record doesn;t it work if you just slow down the lead ship?
I would have thought that if the formation of the group is fixed then slowing the lead ship ought to cause all the others to slow down so as to maintain station on her. It seems to work that way for naturally faster ships in the formation, you can actually see them spilling wind to avoid losing station.
Hosakawa Tito
05-23-2009, 19:35
I agree that needs to be sorted. But just for the record doesn;t it work if you just slow down the lead ship?
I would have thought that if the formation of the group is fixed then slowing the lead ship ought to cause all the others to slow down so as to maintain station on her. It seems to work that way for naturally faster ships in the formation, you can actually see them spilling wind to avoid losing station.
I'm not sure about that, but it may work that way. However, it's not very intuitive. Group commands for speed, shot selection, etc... would be so much better. I generally try to group a mixed fleet with my ships of the line separate from 6th rates, brigs, and sloops. I'll use the heavy hitters to directly engage with roundshot and the others to cross the T astern, if possible, with chain shot to damage masts & sails and slow my opponent's ships of the line. Group commands that actually work would make the operation a whole lot smoother.
I'm not sure about that, but it may work that way. However, it's not very intuitive.
Agreed, it was one of the first things I noticed, and its annoying when you have the enemy fleet right where you want them but your fleet just keeps sailing past instead of slowing down and pwning them.
Marquis of Roland
05-26-2009, 18:03
Yea I don't understand why there's only 2 speeds for groups: full sail or full stop lol. Right now I just overcome it by micromanaging; full sail 3 sec., full stop 2 sec., repeat ::laugh4:
MrWhipple
05-28-2009, 19:49
I wouldn't say that.
I found brigs to be very useful if you need a quick fleet.
They only take one turn to build and if you got multiple shipyards you can build a big fleet up in no time.
Sure it wouldn't be the world's most powerful fleet but enough to keep medium fleets at bay.
I have also found sloops and brigs useful in the same way that they were used in period, as communication ships. I use them on the strategic board to ferry gentlemen, rakes, priests and troops around where there are no bad guys about.
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