EB 1.2: great work on phalanx'es!

[Slaists]

Just wanted to add another bit to the ongoing praise of the EB team. Phalanx balance in my opinion is fantastic! They hold their formation and switch to swords only if flanked or their formation is messed up. I remember, when RTW came out (and MTW2 too), folks used to take phalanx unit swords away to make them keep their formation. Obviously, EB team has managed to achieve that goal without having to take the secondary weapon away.

CA should learn a think or two from you guys... :2thumbsup:

On a different note, I remember from my old RTR days that their team had managed to adjust phalanx unit spaing so that a single line formation would create a solid phalanx line with no gaps between units. I wonder if that's possible also in EB?

[Fluvius Camillus]

Just wanted to add another bit to the ongoing praise of the EB team. Phalanx balance in my opinion is fantastic! They hold their formation and switch to swords only if flanked or their formation is messed up. I remember, when RTW came out (and MTW2 too), folks used to take phalanx unit swords away to make them keep their formation. Obviously, EB team has managed to achieve that goal without having to take the secondary weapon away.

CA should learn a think or two from you guys... :2thumbsup:

On a different note, I remember from my old RTR days that their team had managed to adjust phalanx unit spaing so that a single line formation would create a solid phalanx line with no gaps between units. I wonder if that's possible also in EB?

Oh another one, who rightfully praises the divine work of the EB team.:beam:

You are talking about phalanx gaps? I think the gaps probably come because the group commander and the flag bearer of a group. Or are you talking about unit density?

[Slaists]

Oh another one, who rightfully praises the divine work of the EB team.:beam:

You are talking about phalanx gaps? I think the gaps probably come because the group commander and the flag bearer of a group. Or are you talking about unit density?

Yes, you got me right: I meant the gaps between units (rather than unit internal density which is fine in my opinion). You must be right: the gaps are due to the unit standard-bearer's standing out on a side... in RTR (Rome Total Realism) mod they did not have standard bearers for phalanxes.

[Nachtmeister]

So far I've been fine with KH phalangites, in spite of any gaps. Then again, I consider using more than two units of phalangites per army rather tactically restrictive... If I'd do that, I could just as well just spam a full stack of them and auto-resolve EVERY battle. The only exception from this IMHO are battles between Arche Seleukeia and Ptolemaioi. But even here, the phalanx is not meant to stand up to another phalanx forever - only until the outcome of the battle has been decided on the flanks. Ok, maybe in our fictional forum war of Roma vs Hellas United it could prove to be a disadvantage for the hellenes - but comparing the numbers falling in front of the main phalanx to the numbers penetrating the standard bearers, this is somewhat irrelevant. Are you trying to gain victories against falxmen without casualties or do you just hate to see your standards get dropped on the ground in every single battle? :clown:

[Marcus Ulpius]

Phalanx balancing is yet another thing that EB team did right and was completely messed in vanilla. I remember when a single phalanx could stop the whole army and units died by just touching the sharp end of the sarissa. In EB there's a great balance between making phalanx very effective against those stupid enough to attack it on front (AI always makes this mistake), but on the other hand it can still be broken and destroyed by proper tactics or when overwhelmed.

[Slaists]

So far I've been fine with KH phalangites, in spite of any gaps. Then again, I consider using more than two units of phalangites per army rather tactically restrictive... If I'd do that, I could just as well just spam a full stack of them and auto-resolve EVERY battle. The only exception from this IMHO are battles between Arche Seleukeia and Ptolemaioi. But even here, the phalanx is not meant to stand up to another phalanx forever - only until the outcome of the battle has been decided on the flanks. Ok, maybe in our fictional forum war of Roma vs Hellas United it could prove to be a disadvantage for the hellenes - but comparing the numbers falling in front of the main phalanx to the numbers penetrating the standard bearers, this is somewhat irrelevant. Are you trying to gain victories against falxmen without casualties or do you just hate to see your standards get dropped on the ground in every single battle? :clown:

In RTR, I would just bunch 4 or 6 phalanx units together in a single line formation and either make them hold my center (if defending) or make them 'roll' through the enemy as a single front while all my other units were involved in flanking.

[Nachtmeister]

In RTR, I would just bunch 4 or 6 phalanx units together in a single line formation and either make them hold my center (if defending) or make them 'roll' through the enemy as a single front while all my other units were involved in flanking.

Well, that tactic is still very effective with EB - unless you are trying to "roll" through an opposing phalanx, that is. Just hold your advance as soon as you see your phalanx getting "compressed" by the enemy infantry as it will lose formation/cohesion if you do not hold at this point. Let them kill off the enemies "entangled" in the pikes, wait for them to re-form a solid line - and move on. Usually it takes no more than two, sometimes (against non-phalanx elites) three such "pushes" before they rout. An alternative option especially if the enemy has pikes in the battle line is to have one additional pike phalanx on each flank, guarded by two units of hoplites (each). Sandwich the enemy between your main phalanx line and the flank phalanxes swinging around to their rear, use the hoplites to guard their backs (but station the hoplites BEFORE moving the flank phalanxes so these are covered while taking up formation). Hoplites are best suited for the job of such offensive rear-guarding because they are much faster to re-deploy when the enemy adapts to your move but still retain the benefits of a phalanx type unit against anything except pikes (meaning they just don't die).

[antisocialmunky]

The hardcoded missile proofness of phalanx mode is rather annoying. I think they are still a little OP from the front. They work on all terrain except hills and trees and other crappy terrain features don't screw it up as much as they should.

[Βελισάριος]

Well, that tactic is still very effective with EB - unless you are trying to "roll" through an opposing phalanx, that is. Just hold your advance as soon as you see your phalanx getting "compressed" by the enemy infantry as it will lose formation/cohesion if you do not hold at this point. Let them kill off the enemies "entangled" in the pikes, wait for them to re-form a solid line - and move on.

This "pushing" tactic of yours, are you sending the phalanx to take a walk behind enemy lines or having them perform a regular attack?

More often than not I find that ordering a phalanx unit to attack ridiculously disrupts the formation.
What I do sometimes is carefully calculate the distance to have them march and click right in front of the enemy unit I want to attack, this way they maintain formation and do some serious damage at the same time.

The idea of pushing enemy infantry rather than simply standing there and not dying seems more of what a phalanx is supposed to do in my opinion. (Everyone remembers the serious pushing in 300, right? :clown:)

And "lol" @ Nachtmeister for the banners remark. I have to tell you, it kind of pisses me off sometimes... it's always the same... "Pezoi" here and "Pezoi" there.

[Nachtmeister]

This "pushing" tactic of yours, are you sending the phalanx to take a walk behind enemy lines or having them perform a regular attack?

More often than not I find that ordering a phalanx unit to attack ridiculously disrupts the formation.
What I do sometimes is carefully calculate the distance to have them march and click right in front of the enemy unit I want to attack, this way they maintain formation and do some serious damage at the same time.

The idea of pushing enemy infantry rather than simply standing there and not dying seems more of what a phalanx is supposed to do in my opinion. (Everyone remembers the serious pushing in 300, right? :clown:)

And "lol" @ Nachtmeister for the banners remark. I have to tell you, it kind of pisses me off sometimes... it's always the same... "Pezoi" here and "Pezoi" there.


LMAO big time. :laugh4:

Yes, the banners... But then, they *are* "Pezoi", after all... When I did my German "ephebeia", we all had the same symbol indicating battlefield task on our berets - although every platoon had a "Standard" (Spear with a rather small triangular flag attached to it) with the coat of arms of the region where it's batallion was based and a colour-embroidery around the rim different for every individual platoon. But probably CA didn't even think to add subtle differences in a unit's banner - at least not related to it's position in the stack. Recently saw a screenshot of ETW - there they had different banner shapes depending on the type of unit (cav., art., inf.)...

I meant "taking a walk behind the enemy lines" but stopping before the phalanx gets squeezed badly out of shape - as it would have realistically been done.
Let me illustrate this with a bit more colour:


You don't tell infantry soldiers to "advance to PRECISELY THIS position" or to "advance PRECISELY until THIS degree of INTERSECTION with the enemy line is reached". You roar "FORwaaaARD-MARCH!!!" and then eventually "Front rank, HAAAALT!!!"; otherwise you will get very random results. I mean, most of them are where they are for the loot and because they are big and strong, but not exactly because they enjoyed a detailed military-tactical education; simply put: Your basic "grunt" will be incapable of comprehending what is really going on around him - he is content to prong the guy opposite to him on his spear, then brawl some more and maybe cut someone up good with the xiphos, should the chance arise - something that will gain him some merit and respect in the unit because it requires courage to do more than just defend with the shield and thrust that pike, instead killing an enemy in close combat while fully aware that he can hamstring you just as easily and NOT crapping your pteryges in the process... Point being, those guys don't think a lot about tactics; they are preoccupied with fighting and with any unit maintaining a particular formation rigidly, you can only give marching orders like on modern military parades anyway (guess where that tradition originally came from...?). If you do not give orders in this way, they will never manage to ALL take the first step at the same time - watch drill instruction 101 with fresh recruits somewhere - they don't even get it WITH the command for a while... And there you can also watch what consequently happens to the formation if everyone of them walks in his own pace. Then imagine that happening while there's other guys up ahead wanting to grind some bone... *OUCH* :skull:


Wow, a true bookworm-post. But I think this is a solid argumentation for pike-pushes being very realistic. :bullseye:

[machinor]

Well, yeah... but then again, they ARE all pezoi. :beam:


EDIT:
Awww crappola! Nachtmeister was faster.

[Βελισάριος]

You don't tell infantry soldiers to "advance to PRECISELY THIS position" or to "advance PRECISELY until THIS degree of INTERSECTION with the enemy line is reached". You roar "FORwaaaARD-MARCH!!!" and then eventually "Front rank, HAAAALT!!!"; otherwise you will get very random results. I mean, most of them are where they are for the loot and because they are big and strong, but not exactly because they enjoyed a detailed military-tactical education; simply put: Your basic "grunt" will be incapable of comprehending what is really going on around him - he is content to prong the guy opposite to him on his spear, then brawl some more and maybe cut someone up good with the xiphos, should the chance arise - something that will gain him some merit and respect in the unit because it requires courage to do more than just defend with the shield and thrust that pike, instead killing an enemy in close combat while fully aware that he can hamstring you just as easily and NOT crapping your pteryges in the process... Point being, those guys don't think a lot about tactics; they are preoccupied with fighting and with any unit maintaining a particular formation rigidly, you can only give marching orders like on modern military parades anyway (guess where that tradition originally came from...?). If you do not give orders in this way, they will never manage to ALL take the first step at the same time - watch drill instruction 101 with fresh recruits somewhere - they don't even get it WITH the command for a while... And there you can also watch what consequently happens to the formation if everyone of them walks in his own pace. Then imagine that happening while there's other guys up ahead wanting to grind some bone... *OUCH* :skull:


Wow, a true bookworm-post. But I think this is a solid argumentation for pike-pushes being very realistic. :bullseye:

ROFL!

Now that was good!
I vote we put this in a library of sorts... hells, I'm putting it in the Legion vs. Phalanx sub-forum when we get it.

[Slaists]

This "pushing" tactic of yours, are you sending the phalanx to take a walk behind enemy lines or having them perform a regular attack?

More often than not I find that ordering a phalanx unit to attack ridiculously disrupts the formation.
What I do sometimes is carefully calculate the distance to have them march and click right in front of the enemy unit I want to attack, this way they maintain formation and do some serious damage at the same time.

The idea of pushing enemy infantry rather than simply standing there and not dying seems more of what a phalanx is supposed to do in my opinion. (Everyone remembers the serious pushing in 300, right? :clown:)

And "lol" @ Nachtmeister for the banners remark. I have to tell you, it kind of pisses me off sometimes... it's always the same... "Pezoi" here and "Pezoi" there.

in my case it goes in the following fashion:

1. group a bunch of phalangites in single line formation;
2. after orienting them the way you want, un group and regroup again: that seems to force them to keep the formation
3. click BEHIND the enemy line
4. follow the phalanx with a line of 'cleanup' units. if the phalanxes encounter enemy they will fight and stop the advance until their 'obstacle' is liquidated. the followup line (and flankers) can help in that.
5. as long as i have not issued any other commands to phalangites, they will resume advance after the obstacle is killed and reform in the original formation at the designated rendevouz point.
6. sometimes they will not resume advance, LOL. i guess, they encounter a stone or something in those cases.

oh yes, when I say 'click behind the enemy' i mean 'right alt click'.

[seienchin]

I find the EB phalangitai rather anoying, cause they have far more men than other heavy infantry and most of them have good morale, which in combination with a good general can make them nearly undefeatable, esspecialy when used by a human player.

[Slaists]

I find the EB phalangitai rather anoying, cause they have far more men than other heavy infantry and most of them have good morale, which in combination with a good general can make them nearly undefeatable, esspecialy when used by a human player.

I have no problem with the phalanx units being 50% larger (at large unit size 80 + 50% * 80 = 120) than the regular sword units. You kill them by other means than frontal assault (unless that frontal assault is done by a better phalanx). I find that the real problem in EB is the insane armor ratings some phalangites have. Historically phalanxes were notoriously easy pray for missile units, but that does not hold for the EB ones.

On a different note, what I miss is a CA designed option to merge several units to act as one on the battlefield. I find that would more accurately reflect 'holding the line' than the current 'form a single line' option.

[vartan]

How can you merge units ON the battlefield? is that possible, cause that does sound very interesting.

[Slaists]

How can you merge units ON the battlefield? is that possible, cause that does sound very interesting.

No, it's not possible as of ETW (all previous versions included): it was just my wishful thinking :)

[Drewski]

Just wanted to add another bit to the ongoing praise of the EB team. They hold their formation and switch to swords only if flanked or their formation is messed up. I remember, when RTW came out (and MTW2 too), folks used to take phalanx unit swords away to make them keep their formation. Obviously, EB team has managed to achieve that goal without having to take the secondary weapon away.


While I agree with this bit completely, I couldn't disagree with this bit more
Phalanx balance in my opinion is fantastic!

Phalanxes are utter killing machines, and they really don't seem to have the complete vulnerability from behind that they should. Add to that the total missile (including pilae and thrown javelin types) invulnerability, and personally I'd say they couldn't be more imbalanced.

How many times have you completely surrounded a phalanx on all sides, and found that you are still taking casualties faster than they are ?! Add to that the fact (and sorry to start flogging a horse from another thread), they have an artificial +4 to attack, which makes them by far the best non mounted killing unit :thumbsdown: there is. Forget recruiting expensive Elite "Shock" troops, just buy some cheap native Phalanxes, they'll do the job better.

Head on, into the porcupine, yes they should be as hard as nails. But they were never the killing machines that they are in EB.

Here's a basic "levy type" Phalanx


;163
type hellenistic infantry machimoi phalangitai
dictionary hellenistic_infantry_machimoi_phalangitai ; Machimoi Phalangitai
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Medium_1
soldier hellenistic_infantry_pantodapoi_machimoi_taxeisphalangitai, 60, 0, 1.35
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
mount_effect elephant -1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy
formation 1.1, 1, 2.2, 2, 6, square, phalanx
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 16, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.17
stat_pri_attr long_pike, light_spear
stat_sec 5, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, axe, 0 ,0.165
stat_sec_attr ap
stat_pri_armour 7, 4, 5, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 1
stat_ground 0, 0, -5, -3
stat_mental 9, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1318, 330, 40, 60, 1318
ownership numidia, slave


That's 16 attack and .17 lethality, cost 1318, 330 upkeep, virtually immune to missiles

Here's some Elite Infantry


;48
type celtic infantry kluddargos
dictionary celtic_infantry_kluddargos ; Kluddargos
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type General_1
soldier celtic_infantry_kluddargos_hundaskapiz_lugian, 30, 0, 1.2
officer ebofficer_celtic_standardbearer
mount_effect elephant -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, command
formation 1.8, 1.6, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 13, 10, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.285
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 0 ,0.1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 11, 13, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, -2, -2
stat_mental 16, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 3109, 777, 60, 90, 3109
ownership britons, slave, gauls, scythia

That's 13 attack .285 lethality, cost 3108, 777 upkeep, no superman cape.

Balanced???

[SwissBarbar]

No, it's not possible as of ETW (all previous versions included): it was just my wishful thinking :)

how do you mean merge? you can group units so they stay composed as they are if you move the formation...

[Teleklos Archelaou]

How can you merge units ON the battlefield? is that possible, cause that does sound very interesting.

vartan, those signature banners are reserved for EB team members.
There are some for fans here:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/downloads_artwork.html

Enjoy!