Police bashers let free. [Archive]

pevergreen

03-14-2009, 00:56

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,25184399-7583,00.html

Acquittal leaves police force demoralised

A YOUNG police officer is called to a brawl involving drunken patrons outside a suburban tavern at the end of a hot February day last year. It's run-of-the-mill stuff, nuts and bolts policing as one copper would later describe it.

When Constable Matthew Butcher, 32, arrives with four other officers to find a group swapping punches and wrestling outside Joondalup's Old Baily Tavern, it's about 8pm, still light and chaotic.

Video captured on a mobile phone shows spot-fire punch-ups breaking out all over the road.

Then, out of nowhere, you see Barry McLeod, 29 -- who with his brother Scott, 35, and father Robert, 56, were drinking at the pub when the fracas began -- running full belt at Butcher's back. The officer had just stunned the older McLeod with his Taser gun after he was set upon by the father of the two younger men. Barry McLeod launches himself and headbutts the struggling, unsuspecting officer in the back of the head. Like a falling tree, Constable Butcher goes face first into the concrete, where he remains motionless.

Minutes later and after the video ends, the older McLeod, who has a heart condition, then makes the calamity complete by having a heart attack, no doubt brought on by the fight and Taser stun gun. Other officers, while being abused and threatened by the aggressive, gesticulating brothers, perform CPR on the dying man and save his life. The ambulance called for Constable Butcher leaves the crime scene carrying a revived Robert McLeod. A second later, an ambulance takes the injured officer to hospital, where he fights for his life for weeks. He is now paralysed down the left side of his body, confined to a wheelchair and has serious issues with his sight.

Late on Thursday, a jury acquits the McLeods of all charges except one, saying it was not satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the officers were acting lawfully. In other words, the jury found that the police were overzealous in their actions. So who was on trial here? The police, apparently.

The reaction to the decision has been rabid. Police Commissioner Karl O'Callaghan has appealed for calm among his angry and shocked troops, and admits there have been at least two resignations in the past 24 hours. The police union says it is outraged and the verdict will demoralise the force and kill recruiting.

Others urge the Butcher camp to pursue the McLeods in the civil courts. The McLeods engaged high-priced Melbourne silks at about $8000 a day for a six-week trial. Some suggest their legal bill may nudge $500,000.

Yesterday, Scott McLeod was fined $4000 after being found guilty of threatening to kill bystander Jason Winchip. Winchip took the incriminating video. McLeod told Winchip he would "f..king kill you if you do not delete the f..king video".

His lawyer, Richard Utting, told the court that his client also wished to thank the two officers who saved his father's life. No doubt Constable Butcher and his colleagues will be chuffed by McLeod's kind words.

A second later, an ambulance takes the injured officer to hospital, where he fights for his life for weeks. He is now paralysed down the left side of his body, confined to a wheelchair and has serious issues with his sight.

The tv also said (i guess its just assumed here) that he has suffered pernament brain damage...

This is disgusting.

edit: video here: http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,25181113-948,00.html

Rhyfelwyr

03-14-2009, 00:59

This is disgusting.

What more could be said. :shame:

Alexander the Pretty Good

03-14-2009, 01:30

Then, out of nowhere, you see Barry McLeod, 29 -- who with his brother Scott, 35, and father Robert, 56, were drinking at the pub when the fracas began -- running full belt at Butcher's back. The officer had just stunned the older McLeod with his Taser gun after he was set upon by the father of the two younger men. Barry McLeod launches himself and headbutts the struggling, unsuspecting officer in the back of the head. Like a falling tree, Constable Butcher goes face first into the concrete, where he remains motionless.
This paragraph seems particularly tortuous - was the elder McLeod Tasered before or after his son rushed the copper?

I wonder if the general public become demoralized when the cops beat up someone...

Also, in before Crazed. :D

CountArach

03-14-2009, 02:09

Minutes later and after the video ends, the older McLeod, who has a heart condition, then makes the calamity complete by having a heart attack, no doubt brought on by the fight and Taser stun gun.[...]He is now paralysed down the left side of his body, confined to a wheelchair and has serious issues with his sight.
God damn I hate tasers.

naut

03-14-2009, 02:30

The sensationalism in that article is laughable. Tony Barrass your a journo not a bloody novelist. He's trying to educe pity and quite frankly I have none for Policemen, it's their job too bad, get better health cover next time. And a jury decided what they believed should have been the verdict, should we make them change there verdict just because some people don't like it? No, too bad.

Maybe next time they should just shoot everyone, that'll solve the problem. ~:wacko:

pevergreen

03-14-2009, 02:33

http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,25181113-948,00.html

There is video of it on that link.

naut

03-14-2009, 02:49

I have no pity/empathy. They were doing their job and if they were good at it they would never have got into that situation anyway. Anyone who uses a taser should get what they deserve.

Alexander the Pretty Good

03-14-2009, 03:02

So the cop was tackled after he tasered the guy's dad.

CountArach

03-14-2009, 03:03

So the cop was tackled after he tasered the guy's dad.
There goes his one defence in my mind.

Alexander the Pretty Good

03-14-2009, 03:06

From what I could tell from the video, the cop should've tasered the son; he was scuffling harder than the father, who seemed more to be trying to hold the cops back from his son.

Ice

03-14-2009, 03:09

I have no pity/empathy. They were doing their job and if they were good at it they would never have got into that situation anyway. Anyone who uses a taser should get what they deserve.

Right... that must make sense somewhere.

Edit:

After watching that video, if I were a friend/family member of the officer who was paralyzed, I would pay this Scott a little visit.

naut

03-14-2009, 03:13

Right... that must make sense somewhere.
In my head. :mad:

Alexander the Pretty Good

03-14-2009, 03:17

Right... that must make sense somewhere.

Edit:

After watching that video, if I were a friend/family member of the officer who was paralyzed, I would pay this Scott a little visit.
With his dad given a heart attack and his family 500k in the hole I think I'd call this even.

Husar

03-14-2009, 03:23

God damn I hate tasers.

Eh, you cut that out nicely because the one who is paralyzed is the officer who was headbutted and not the old man who got tazered....please read that again, the video also shows the officer in a wheelchair.

I also think this is absolutely disgusting, this guy causes serious head damage to a police officer and then walks away free?!?!?!
That's absolutely not just in any way you take it. :no:
I'd have given him about 10 years, and that is considering he was drunk and noone died. :thumbsdown:

CountArach

03-14-2009, 03:25

Eh, you cut that out nicely because the one who is paralyzed is the officer who was headbutted and not the old man who got tazered....please read that again, the video also shows the officer in a wheelchair.
Yeah I just re-read it. Anyway I still think Tasing was what caused this whole problem to escalate to the level that it did.

Husar

03-14-2009, 21:52

Yeah I just re-read it. Anyway I still think Tasing was what caused this whole problem to escalate to the level that it did.

And I still think that drunken idiot would have headbutted the officer anyway, they just tazed the wrong guy.

Vuk

03-14-2009, 22:06

The police officer was defending himself from the psycopathic old guy. What the drunkard scumbag did was total ********. The trash ball should be put to death, and the police department should pay the officer for the first year that he is out of work.

EDIT: Tell you what, police around the world aught to go on strike, then see the cowardly ********* beg for them to come back. People have gone way too far with their mistreatment of the police. They think that just because they wear a uniform they are suddenly less human (when in fact, they should be treated with more respect for their position and the risks they take for the public). The jury who aqquitted that ******* deserve to be horsewhipped.

Rhyfelwyr

03-14-2009, 23:51

Maybe its just because I'm British and I respect any authority figure except politicians, I can't believe the attitude some people here have towards the police. I thought the police were the good guys?

Mooks

03-15-2009, 01:02

I just watched the video, it seemed to me that the son got pissed at the cap because he tasered his dad.

First off, the cop needs some serios wrestling/martial arts lessons. A drunk old guy was going toe to toe with him, no skill whatsoever was involved in that video, none.

2nd, When you whip out a weapon in a street fight -where there was previosly no weapons- then expect crazy stuff happening like a headbutt from behind. The cop took the fight to a whole new level with the taser, and lost.

Maybe its just because I'm British and I respect any authority figure except politicians, I can't believe the attitude some people here have towards the police. I thought the police were the good guys?

The average police officer listens into peoples conversations, breaks into their homes, and steals their stuff then punishes them for it. Im talking of course of marijuana but the other stuff (Like the thread "2 adults beat up a teenager") is just icing on the cake. O, and cops arent exactly pleasant people to be around.

Husar

03-15-2009, 02:02

The average police officer listens into peoples conversations, breaks into their homes, and steals their stuff then punishes them for it. Im talking of course of marijuana but the other stuff (Like the thread "2 adults beat up a teenager") is just icing on the cake.

Rubbish, the cops don't make the laws, they just enforce them because it's their job.
I don't want to ask people whether they have a payback card, yet I do it because it's my job.
There are other ways to stop that then assaulting policemen, like legal ways through changing the laws.

O, and cops arent exactly pleasant people to be around.

My experience is the opposite.
And now what?

We just had a whole thread about bad cops and yes, those exist but in this example what we have are not a bunch of innocent teenage kittens getting gang-raped by police but a bunch of drunken troublemakers who started a fight with police.

On the use of the tazer and escalation, IMO they should have taken the baton and clubbed them to the point where they were unable to move, man those drunkards got off easy there. :thumbsdown:
At least then we wouldn't have any tazer discussions.
Wrestling around with a drunken guy is not the job of the police, maybe next time some guys hold hostages in a bank with knives, the police should only send in knife fighters?

Alexander the Pretty Good

03-15-2009, 02:12

On the use of the tazer and escalation, IMO they should have taken the baton and clubbed them to the point where they were unable to move, man those drunkards got off easy there.
I think you hurt your case when you argue for more police brutality.

Mooks

03-15-2009, 02:16

Rubbish, the cops don't make the laws, they just enforce them because it's their job.
I don't want to ask people whether they have a payback card, yet I do it because it's my job.
There are other ways to stop that then assaulting policemen, like legal ways through changing the laws.

My experience is the opposite.
And now what?

We just had a whole thread about bad cops and yes, those exist but in this example what we have are not a bunch of innocent teenage kittens getting gang-raped by police but a bunch of drunken troublemakers who started a fight with police.

On the use of the tazer and escalation, IMO they should have taken the baton and clubbed them to the point where they were unable to move, man those drunkards got off easy there. :thumbsdown:
At least then we wouldn't have any tazer discussions.
Wrestling around with a drunken guy is not the job of the police, maybe next time some guys hold hostages in a bank with knives, the police should only send in knife fighters?

So a torturer(extreme example but a easy one) should not be responsible for what he does since its only his job? And I never advocated assaulting policemen.

My experience is the opposite.

Im sure your the minority, as most people have contact with police when they are being questioned or pulled over (Dont ask me to get a statistic for that, thats a educated guess) in their car. Most of those experiances are unpleasant, which may be one of the reasons some people have no respect for cops, something which Rhyfelwyr was shocked by.

On the use of the tazer and escalation, IMO they should have taken the baton and clubbed them to the point where they were unable to move, man those drunkards got off easy there. :thumbsdown:
At least then we wouldn't have any tazer discussions.

I dont know what was before the video. Were the cops trying to arrest them for being drunk in public or what? Some drunken people dont really appreciate trying to get put in handcuffs and turn violent. In this case the old man was just struggling, a 8th grade wrestler couldve took him down in 10 seconds; is that a good excuse to you for beating him completely senseless?

Vuk

03-15-2009, 08:39

I just watched the video, it seemed to me that the son got pissed at the cap because he tasered his dad.
So what? Is that an excuse? Heck, why didn't he just take out a gun and shoot the cop? The cop tasered his dad, what the heck. His dad is a criminal, as is he. That is no justification at all.

First off, the cop needs some serios wrestling/martial arts lessons. A drunk old guy was going toe to toe with him, no skill whatsoever was involved in that video, none.

You are missing the point Mooks. He is a police man, he was trying to pull him away from the other guy he was attacked and stop a brawl. He was trying to beat the guy up. He pulled him away, and then the guy attacked him.

2nd, When you whip out a weapon in a street fight -where there was previosly no weapons- then expect crazy stuff happening like a headbutt from behind. The cop took the fight to a whole new level with the taser, and lost.

I cannot tell you how much respect for you I lost. 1st off, he was not 'street fighting', he was simply trying to calmly pull the scum away and stop a streetfight, then he was attacked and needed to act to defend himself.
2nd of all, he is a police man, and as such is a representative of the people and his country. He deserves the respect that that uniform should give him, and he should not have to worry about a drunken dirtbag coming up from behind and paralyzing him.
3rd of all, the old guy was at his throat, and he needed to defend himself. A taser is not a firearm or a baton, it is a taser. They are given them for just this reason. If the son was worried about his father's heart condition, then maybe he should have questioned why his father was in darned street fight in the first place. That is not what you do when you have a heart condition.
Also, when you attack a police man, expect weapons to be used, and fast. He is darned lucky that it was only a taser.

The average police officer listens into peoples conversations, breaks into their homes, and steals their stuff then punishes them for it. Im talking of course of marijuana but the other stuff (Like the thread "2 adults beat up a teenager") is just icing on the cake. O, and cops arent exactly pleasant people to be around.
Really? If I was to make a bet, I would say the only experience you have with police is getting pulled over for DUI and having your illegal drugs taken away. If that previous statement made me lose respect for you, this takes the cake. My dad was a marksmanship trainer for the local police, and I have been around them since I was a very small child. Cops are just like anyone else, normal people with the same types of families, dreams, etc. In my experience, MOST of the police I have known have been more responsible, better family people, and much more easy going than the average person. They are usually people who feel a strong commitment to justice, and do not want to see the weak abused by criminals. People who believe in making the world a better place for the common person. Sound cheesey? Well, there are people like that out there you know, they are just the ones that people hate. I think people like you don't like the laws, so you hate those who enforce them. If you do not like the laws, take it up with the lawmakers, not the guys who put their lives on the line every day to make your world safe. If police across the world were to go on strike, there would be so much crime, so much violence, so much death and misery that ungrateful and disrespectfull people like you would suddenly be begging for them to come back. I suggest you learn what you are talking about and show some respect for those who put it all on the line to ensure that we can live normal lives.

Rhyfelwyr

03-15-2009, 15:05

O, and cops arent exactly pleasant people to be around.

Maybe it's an issue of personal experience, but I can't help but object to this. At my Primary School, officers used to come in fairly regularly to talk with the pupils, help establish links between the police and the community. And I think it really helped boost relations between the police and society, I remember the kids that were always getting in trouble could talk with the police, there was a kind of mutual respect between them. There's been a lot of good work like this done in my area. The police are well aware of the social problems leading to crime. It helps when the police don't see those they arrest as scummy individuals, and similarly if the arrested party know the police well, and don't see them as in-human fascists come just to spoil their fun.

I also did my work experience with the police force, couldn't have asked to meet nicer people. As Vuk said, it sounds cheesy but they believed in what they were doing, and they did not hate or want to take advantage of whoever they came into confontation with.

Fragony

03-15-2009, 15:57

All the police is interested in is your money. Die, or don't, what's it to me they are useless anyway. When dead they can't steal from you, better dead imho. Bashed, fine as well, screw them. Hope it hurts.

LittleGrizzly

03-15-2009, 16:38

I would like to report overwhelmingly negative experiences with coppers, and thats not including the fact they have taken illegal drugs off me (its annoying but i don't put it as a bad mark against the individual copper)

As a young person they are some of the most arrogant disrespectful people i have met in my life

Little story for you... me and my friends 'hanging around' drinking... so the cops come and confsicate/empty the drink... my friend proceeds to ask why we can't drink they have to take the drink... the coppers response ?

to call him an ugly female genitalia... he response you cheeky female dog... he gets given a fine for drunk and disordely! (he wasn't even drunk!)

The thing that makes cops so bad is you just can't defend yourself against them, if anyone else did this kind of stuff to people they would get it back at them, but as cops are the law you merely have to take thier crap and any you give back will have them come down on your like a ton of bricks...

On the actual story ill get onto that now...

Husar

03-15-2009, 17:18

So a torturer(extreme example but a easy one) should not be responsible for what he does since its only his job?
No, because a torturer is very different from a policeman.
there should be no torturers in a constitutional state and torturers hit people who have been restrained already, my point about clubbing them to the ground was not very serious, I might have wanted to add a smiley. ~:)
But the problem is restraining a drunk person is not very easy as they feel less pain and cannot be reasoned with, the police should be allowed to use force to restrain them and it is not the fault of the police officers that the drunkards are drunkards who cannot behave and hurt other people. The police were called to a brawl so obviously there was already a lot of violence before the police arrived.
Tasers are pretty controversial but when restraining them by hand does seem very dangerous to the policemen then the only other options are baton or a real gun. Surely tasers shouldn't be used lightly but they are effective versus drunkards as well, unlike batons which cause mostly pain that the drunkard cannot feel so you really have to physically hurt them a lot to bring them down...

Or maybe the police should have watched and cheered for one group of drunkards until the brawl was over. :idea2:

Im sure your the minority, as most people have contact with police when they are being questioned or pulled over (Dont ask me to get a statistic for that, thats a educated guess) in their car. Most of those experiances are unpleasant, which may be one of the reasons some people have no respect for cops, something which Rhyfelwyr was shocked by.
Ah, yes, being pulled over for driving to fast, poor people who endanger themselves and others, I really can understand why they hate police. Well, i can tell you the difference, I live in Germany, here police don't put a gun in your face, tell you to get out and then strip-search you just because you were 1km/h too fast. i know that police in the US can be really bad but that doesn't make me spout blanket statements on the net or look down at police here as well.
And being pulled over in cars is easily avoided by using trains, which I advocated here before. :mellow:

I dont know what was before the video. Were the cops trying to arrest them for being drunk in public or what? Some drunken people dont really appreciate trying to get put in handcuffs and turn violent. In this case the old man was just struggling, a 8th grade wrestler couldve took him down in 10 seconds; is that a good excuse to you for beating him completely senseless?
It says they were called to a brawl, so it's not like they showed up to spoil the fun but were called by a concerned person to end the drunkard on drunkard violence. You know, I've never been involved in that, maybe because I stay away from violent drunkards and don't start hurting people when I'm drunk myself, helps a lot when it comes to not being beaten by policemen.
the old man wasn't beaten senseless, like I said that was a bit of half-humour(he still deserves a spanking :whip: ) I inserted without an appropriate smiley, just to be mean myself once in a lifetime.

Crazed Rabbit

03-15-2009, 21:36

The father was pulling his son away from the police officer.

The officer pulled out a semi-lethal weapon and shot the father with it. There was no cause for that, and it almost killed the man.

The other son tackles the cop. He did not mean to paralyze him.

So, I'm not feeling that this verdict is that terrible. The cop used to much force, deadly force, and was tackled from behind. It's refreshing to see the police don't have the protection of the law when they overstep it.

As for cops being bastions of justice, who want to protect people from criminals...
Maybe you people can tell, me of all the crimes reported in this thread (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article5908535.ece), why not a single one was reported by the police? Why all the information had to be dragged from their files?

As a side note, I hate tazers too. They've become a tool of torture to force compliance. We detest torture in other places, why do we allow people to be tazered if they are nonviolently resisting? How is causing pain to force the citizen to act as you wish any different from torture? They have some small use in confronting a person with a knife, but they've become widely abused as well.

The cops have started to use them whenever people don't listen. I've read multiple cases of cops tazering people passed out from diabetes or the like.

CR

Husar

03-15-2009, 22:34

So if the cops are that bad what cruel sadist called them in the first place? :inquisitive:

Gaius Scribonius Curio

03-17-2009, 00:52

K, this incident occured about a 2 minute drive from where I live. So I can tell you that the pub in question is actually 20m away from the largest police station in the northern suburbs. Starting a fight with some coppers outside the Old Bailey is beyond stupid.

The article as published above is very sensationalistic. Personally I find most Perth-based journalists to be so. Yes it is disgusting that a young police officer is now visually impaired and was severely injured. However the old man had a heart attack which was induced by tasering. The participants were found not guilty as it was self-defence, this I would argue with, but you cannot say that the sons actions were not provoked. (This doesn't mean I agree with them.)

For the record, one of friends works for the Joondalup police force. He is as far as I know a good police officer, and good fun. However he is far from morally pure, as many of my friends have recently commented. My point is that the police are not infallible, and can make the wrong desicion.

Finally I believe it is important to note that a jury, who has been given all the facts and evidence has acquitted the defendent. This isn't an arbitrary desicion made by one person, nor is it a row over sentencing. 12 ordinary people have decided that the man is not guilty, as he was acting in 'self-defence'. This, to my mind indicates that there must be more to the story than what has been reported by sensationalist media networks.

I'll conclude with a statement that me and my friends regularly go to another Joondalup pub, all of 100m away, and we don't see any trouble. Certainly we don't feel unsafe. Either because of this incident or the subsequent acquittal of the perpetrator (or because of the incidents that occurred at Mullaloo last Australia Day, but thats beside the point...).

Strike For The South

03-17-2009, 09:19

The officer was in the right here. Some drunk nancy boy with a heart condition thought it was cool to start something with the cop and his boy struck him in the back.

Nothing but trash these people. Some of you hate tasers? Well I hate drunk-:daisy: who think they are unbreakable. Some people need to get a job.

As soon as the guy came toward him looking for a fight the cop should've tasered him. The cops job is not to go toe to toe with him it's to take a violent man down with as little harm as possible.

The old geezer will remember his failed heart the next time he has a surge of testosterone. What a tool.

EDIT: And for the recored my experinice with the cops has been good maybe its because I look them in the eye and show them respect and not pretend like my rights are being violated every two seconds

Husar

03-17-2009, 15:22

Pretty much, i just watched the video again and it looks like the drunkards all tried to resist their arrest, also not how the guy who gets tasered is beating a policeman beforehand and doesn't want to let go, he isn't a fragile old man, he is a fat drunkard who beats police officers.
The correct way to "save" his son would be to let the policemen do, maybe try to sway them with words only and then use legal means to get his son out of custody if necessary. AFAIK most drunkards just get dropped into a cell until they are sober and then they're released, definitely worth crippling a police officer over. :wall:

Vuk

03-18-2009, 08:39

Ah, yes, being pulled over for driving to fast, poor people who endanger themselves and others, I really can understand why they hate police. Well, i can tell you the difference, I live in Germany, here police don't put a gun in your face, tell you to get out and then strip-search you just because you were 1km/h too fast. i know that police in the US can be really bad but that doesn't make me spout blanket statements on the net or look down at police here as well.And being pulled over in cars is easily avoided by using trains, which I advocated here before. :mellow:

lol, no offense, but that is a very ill-informed statement. I am afraid that you watch too much TV. :P In the US they only pull you over for going 8+ MPH over the speed limit (in most States), and the do not draw a weapon on you because you speed. :P They approach your car, tell you that you were speeding, ask you why, ask for your drivers liscense, go to their car to check your record and issue your fine/warning, then return it to you, explain it, and drive away.
I will not blame you for you misconception, as the media loves to promote such ideas. On the topic of the article though, the policeman was seperating the fat old drunken **** from the others, and he attacked the policeman. The policeman was defending himself and had NO reason to believe that a taser could be fatal to him. After all, if his heart was in that bad of condition, why was he getting drunk and brawling? An innocent young man's life is ruined now, and the guilty party has gotten away scotfree.

Husar

03-18-2009, 09:13

lol, no offense, but that is a very ill-informed statement. I am afraid that you watch too much TV. :P In the US they only pull you over for going 8+ MPH over the speed limit (in most States), and the do not draw a weapon on you because you speed. :P They approach your car, tell you that you were speeding, ask you why, ask for your drivers liscense, go to their car to check your record and issue your fine/warning, then return it to you, explain it, and drive away.

I wasn't 100% serious, I just tried to catch the sprit of many posters here and what they say about the police.
You also raise a good point about having a weak heart, then getting drunk, starting a brawl and then hitting a policeman, that's pretty rich for a weak old fart.

Vuk

03-18-2009, 09:45

I wasn't 100% serious, I just tried to catch the sprit of many posters here and what they say about the police.
You also raise a good point about having a weak heart, then getting drunk, starting a brawl and then hitting a policeman, that's pretty rich for a weak old fart.

lol, sorry that I misunderstood you then. It is just very frustrating for me over here in Europe for the first time, to hear what people think of America (I think rather as it would be for a Frenchman coming to America). People have actually asked me if I have ever been in a gun fight! Why? Because I am American and they think that America is a mix between some John Wayne cowboy movie and Gangs of New York City. :P Some of the awefull things people think about America and Americans is not just so wrong, it is very offending. :P The media here in Hungary for instance says some of the most wild and inaccurate things. And the media in Germany! lol, please don't hold it against me when I get defensive, because the entire world has such a warped and inaccurate image of America that it is some times hard not to. :P

Anyway, about the weak heart, my dad died of a heart attack, because he had heart condition for several years. He used to drive 4 screwdrivers a day, smoke, and live a less than healthy lifestyle (visiting the bar a lot). When he learned he had a heart condition, he stopped eating salty food, stopped drinking completely, stopped smoking completely, stopped going to bar rooms, and lived a very cautious and much slower life. He was on the way to recovery when an unfortunate event worsened conditions and resulted in a heart attack that killed him. Point is though, if you have heart problems, you do not go drinking like a fish and getting in brawls. Who would think that a drunk brawler like him would have heart conditions? It makes no sense.

LittleGrizzly

03-18-2009, 12:03

pevergreen

03-18-2009, 13:51

Vuk

03-18-2009, 17:47

I can see the logic behind the criticisms of the older guy... he probably shouldn't be drinking and fighting in his health state....

That being said someone should be free to carry on drinking regardless of thier health... the fact is he went out with his sons and trouble started... from the sounds of it he wasn't really the troublemaker and was trying to defend his children, which is admirable regardless of who is attacking them and why...

The police officer couldn't have known of his condition.... well i think that should be at the front of the police's minds every time they decide to use devices such as tasers and the like. With a result like the one from this case im sure it will help police think twice before they act excessively...

At the front of his mind? How is he supposed to know? Should he ask him? "Excuse me, could you please let go of my throat so that I can ask you about your heart before I tase you?" A taser is not exactly excessive force. It was selfdefense, and the guy is lucky that it was ONLY a taser. The law keeps peace and safeguards people's personal freedom and rights. As such, respecting them is respecting the rights, freedoms, and safety of all individuals. On the other side of that coin, when you attack them, you attack the rights, freedoms, and safety of all individuals, and there are and should be serious consquences for that. The policeman did NOT use excessive force in that instance, and what the younger drunked ***** did was malicious and should have been heavily punished.
Personally, I hope the whole trio of them get drunk and drive right off a cliff. It will make this world a better place.

LittleGrizzly

03-18-2009, 18:46

Vuk

03-18-2009, 18:51

At the front of his mind? How is he supposed to know? Should he ask him? "Excuse me, could you please let go of my throat so that I can ask you about your heart before I tase you?" A taser is not exactly excessive force.

That is exactly my point... you cannot now the state of the persons health so you should be extremly cautious to use a taser... especially on someone who's a little older... personally i hope to god none of my friends are ever tasered near me.... unless they had a very good reason i woul defend my friend....

So how are you cautious then? When someone attacks a cop, it is something they know will happen to them (if they are not shot outright). The police have to defend themselves, and they have to 'win' if they are to protect the freedoms of others. It was the drunkard's responsibility to know this and act accordingly.
As to what you said about attacking police, no offense, but if something like this happens and you attack a police officer, I hope you are dealt with quickly and decisively. :bow: As I said in my above post, an attack on a police officer acting within the law is an attack on the rights, freedoms, and safety of everyone.

Husar

03-18-2009, 18:56

... from the sounds of it he wasn't really the troublemaker and was trying to defend his children, which is admirable regardless of who is attacking them and why...

Excuse me, the police officers were just restraining his drunken sons who were involved in a brawl (to me brawl includes beating people but then I'm not a native english speaker) and he beat a police officer in the stomach, what exactly is heroic about that?

Do you think family feuds are heroic as well? :inquisitive:

Gaius Scribonius Curio

03-19-2009, 00:40

They are moving away from capsicum spray, to tasers, as many cases recently have seen capsicum spray useless. I think they've had to kill a few people because they sprayed him, had many guns on him, but he still charged them with a weapon intending to kill.

Tasers are being introduced in QLD at least, as proper equipment, I'm not sure about WA, where this took place.

Tasers are part of their proper equipment, at least that is what my friend said. He also said that before they were allowed to use them, they had to be tasered, so they would know exactly what they were doing to someone.

With regards to what actually happened I'm about 90% sure it went something like this:

The elderly man and his sons were inside the Old Bailey having a drink. Some native Australians (did I mention they were recent immigrants from Britain?) had a go at their country. They took offence to this, and had a verbal go back, whereupon the typical Australian response of 'well :daisy: off back where you come from and stop ruining our country...' was proffered.
A fight then broke out inside the pub, spilled out onto the streets and some coppers who were around got involved (well it was right outside a police station, what were they expecting?)...

The rest of the story you know.

Interesting sidenote; the lawyer that got them off was in a cafe I frequent, in the city, yesterday afternoon (my friend's mum owns it... I get free stuff... Woot!). The aforementioned owner was very unhappy, but lets put it this way, he didn't have horns and a tail that I can see, and while there are plenty of jokes about lawyers being scum of the earth etc. etc. you have to realise at the end of the day, the guy was acquitted by a jury of 12 ordinary people. Ergo, twelve ordinary people thought he was innocent and when asked as such after hearing all the evidence said so.

Husar

03-19-2009, 09:11

If those 12 people were as friendly towards police as some posters here I can see why they let him off... :sweatdrop:

Meneldil

03-19-2009, 17:13

lol, sorry that I misunderstood you then. It is just very frustrating for me over here in Europe for the first time, to hear what people think of America (I think rather as it would be for a Frenchman coming to America).

You don't have to go to Europe to hear that. Just visit Canada. Most people here think that Americans are uneducated barbarians. I think they pretty much hate the US more than any European does.
And going to the US as a French is fine, as long as you stay in civilized places ;)

As for the topic, well, I don't have any experience with policemen outside of my country, and I have to say that I have mixed feelings about them. Sometimes they're quite nice, sometimes they're freaking horrible and arrogants.
I think that in any case, nobody deserves to be as badly injured as that guy is. If I were a friend of him, I would be pretty much pissed off, even though the conditions in which it happened are less than clearcut.

Vuk

03-19-2009, 17:43

You don't have to go to Europe to hear that. Just visit Canada. Most people here think that Americans are uneducated barbarians. I think they pretty much hate the US more than any European does.
And going to the US as a French is fine, as long as you stay in civilized places ;)

As for the topic, well, I don't have any experience with policemen outside of my country, and I have to say that I have mixed feelings about them. Sometimes they're quite nice, sometimes they're freaking horrible and arrogants.
I think that in any case, nobody deserves to be as badly injured as that guy is. If I were a friend of him, I would be pretty much pissed off, even though the conditions in which it happened are less than clearcut.

lol, that was a joke BTW. Americans do have lots of stereotypes about the French, but 99% of Americans are courteous people who will treat you kindly no matter where you come from. Every foriegner I have met who came to the US (including 2 Frenchmen) were extremely impressed by how friendly people were (with the exception of the French lady who went to NYC. Here is some advice, stay out of Chicago and NYC, it does not get much worse. :P). Even she said though that she got a much more favorable impression of America.

(Oh yeah, I even met a Dutch guy who came here and loved America. Can you imagine that? A Dutchman who does not hate America anymore! Doesn't get weirder than that...)
:wiseguy:

Mooks

03-19-2009, 20:23

lol, that was a joke BTW. Americans do have lots of stereotypes about the French, but 99% of Americans are courteous people who will treat you kindly no matter where you come from. Every foriegner I have met who came to the US (including 2 Frenchmen) were extremely impressed by how friendly people were (with the exception of the French lady who went to NYC. Here is some advice, stay out of Chicago and NYC, it does not get much worse. :P). Even she said though that she got a much more favorable impression of America.

(Oh yeah, I even met a Dutch guy who came here and loved America. Can you imagine that? A Dutchman who does not hate America anymore! Doesn't get weirder than that...)
:wiseguy:

Matters where you go. If you go for the southern/midwestern then what you said is true. If you go new england then its a entirely different matter.

Vuk

03-19-2009, 21:30

Matters where you go. If you go for the southern/midwestern then what you said is true. If you go new england then its a entirely different matter.

As a guy who originated from that area and lived there for some time, I can honestly say that North East Coast United States is home to some of the most arrogant, snobbish, and down-right corrupt people on the face of the earth. It does not matter who you are, foriegn or not, you will be treated like crap there. The only place I have ever been where it is worse is Chicago, but that is another bad apple on the tree. Not meaning to offend anyone who lives there, but that has been my honest experience in those places.

Meneldil

03-19-2009, 21:48

I think we're somewhat oot here, but most people I met in Boston were quite nice. I actually loved New England, it felt like Europe, with this touching out of time feeling when you'd leave the big towns and visit the countryside. And being European there instantly grants you coolness points.

Just to go back to the topic, I also found most cops in NYC to be quite nice and helpful. Probably because they're used to deal with stupid tourists.

LittleGrizzly

03-20-2009, 19:45

Excuse me, the police officers were just restraining his drunken sons who were involved in a brawl (to me brawl includes beating people but then I'm not a native english speaker) and he beat a police officer in the stomach, what exactly is heroic about that?

Its a big jump from admirable to heroic, giving to charity or helping your nieghbour with a chore are admirable things... but far from heroic...

It was admirable that he intervened to stop his son's getting hurt regardless of risk to himself, i suppose that doesn't nessecarily make it right... but i wouldn't let anyone beat up my children no matter the justificition

Do you think family feuds are heroic as well?

Only when somebody jumps on a grenade....

So how are you cautious then?

Im constantly paranoid about hitting someone the wrong way... just the slightest hit on the head can cause so much damage... you have to be damn careful...

When someone attacks a cop, it is something they know will happen to them (if they are not shot outright).

If your child is being attacked by the cops, it must be very hard to restrain yourself...

As to what you said about attacking police, no offense, but if something like this happens and you attack a police officer, I hope you are dealt with quickly and decisively. :bow: As I said in my above post, an attack on a police officer acting within the law is an attack on the rights, freedoms, and safety of everyone.

Well as i calrified in my statement
unless they had a very good reason i woul defend my friend....

So you would like the police to taser my friend without a good reason and get away with it ?!

Husar

03-20-2009, 21:53

It was admirable that he intervened to stop his son's getting hurt regardless of risk to himself, i suppose that doesn't nessecarily make it right... but i wouldn't let anyone beat up my children no matter the justificition
the video doesn't show the police beating up anyone, they were more like wrestling trying to bring them into a position to apply handcuffs.

Only when somebody jumps on a grenade....
:laugh4:

If your child is being attacked by the cops, it must be very hard to restrain yourself...

Well, I was attacked by a group of people when I was younger, they formed a cicle around me and threw a leather football at me, it hurt not only my skin but also my pride so i picked someone and attacked him, he ran away and I chased him. At the end of a path he fell onto the sidewalk, few meters away from my parents' house. I kicked him hard while he was lying on the ground, my dad saw it and sent me into my room. Nowadays I'm grateful he did that.
So according to your stance my dad should probably have come and supported his son by kicking on the guy on the ground as well?

My point is his son was in the wrong, a good dad does not support his son when he is wrong, instead he shows him the right thing to do, sometimes via punishment.

His son was drunk and was beating people, his dad should have stopped him but he even took part in the brawl, then police comes and tries to do what the dad should have done in the first place and daddy starts beating policemen, that isn't admirable, it's a total failure of a dad. :thumbsdown:

Vuk

03-21-2009, 09:29

So how are you cautious then?

Im constantly paranoid about hitting someone the wrong way... just the slightest hit on the head can cause so much damage... you have to be damn careful...
We are not talking about hitting people though, we are talking about a taser. How was he supposed to be cautious in that situation?

When someone attacks a cop, it is something they know will happen to them (if they are not shot outright).

If your child is being attacked by the cops, it must be very hard to restrain yourself...

That is a fairly pathetic excuse. First of all, his child was NOT being attacked by cops, which makes it completely unrelated. Second of all, he is a grown adult and a citizen of his country, maybe he should show some self control. When I was a little kid, there was a girl I really liked. We were out playing baseball with kids from the school, and one of them threw a piece of watermelon on her dress and she started crying. Instead of doing the right thing and just making sure it didn't escalate, I attacked the kid. I beat the snot out of him, and two of his friends. When I got home I had two big cuts on my face, a massive bruise, and severely cut lip. My dad asked me what happened, and being the tough little boy I was, I started bragging about what I did. He smacked me right across my cut face, helped me clean up, and took me over to the other kids houses to apologize. I couldn't look anyone in the face for weeks after that, but I learned a good lesson, don't fight. Some may think my dad was a little course (and perhaps he was), but he was responsible, and he did the right thing. He set a good example for his children, so that they would do the right thing as well.
If your child breaks the law and is being handcuffed for it, you do not attack a policeman. That is absolutely no excuse at all. No wonder his sons turned out to be the scum that they are. The guy is an irresponsible, violent, drunk...not a parent.

As to what you said about attacking police, no offense, but if something like this happens and you attack a police officer, I hope you are dealt with quickly and decisively. :bow: As I said in my above post, an attack on a police officer acting within the law is an attack on the rights, freedoms, and safety of everyone.

Well as i calrified in my statement
unless they had a very good reason i woul defend my friend....

So you would like the police to taser my friend without a good reason and get away with it ?!
I said "if something like this happens", and I do not consider this an example of the police not having good reason. I said it, because you seem to. You see, it is our opinions on what constitutes a good reason that is causing the confusion.
And to tackle your question, no, I do not think that they should get away with it, but I also think that attacking them makes you just as guilty. They are not shooting your friend, they are tasing them. Big difference. You take them to court if you thought that they did not have good reason, you do not attack them. You cannot attack everyone who you disagree with. I can see if you are protecting your friend's well being or life (like if they are continually tasing him (ei torturing him), or beating the snot out of him without a good reason), but otherwise, you bring it before the people and let justice work.

Vuk