View Full Version : Horse archers : oh, come on...
Kobal2fr
03-23-2009, 17:26
Horse Archers have always been a smidge overpowered in TW games. OK, make that a HELL OF A LOT overpowered, especially in Rome and M2TW where they could fire on the move, 360°, while zooming around faster than anything else. I thought back then they needed some toning down but this ?! This is going too far.
HAs have been neutered to hell and back.
I was so looking forward to playing with Tatars and Khazaks again in the Russian campaign but, boy, boy are they disappointing. If you don't know, not only do they only fire when the entire unit it at a complete stop, but they have the narrowest field of fire, much narrower that that of infantry.
So... what's their point, then ? Mobility ? Meh. They are quite fast, but by the time they've circled around a unit and more importantly, taken the loooong time to align just so and wait for the one or two stragglers still stuck in a wall or tree, the target unit has already wheeled, or formed a square. Firepower-wise, they're of course laughable compared to a 3-rank line firing by rank. Charging after a few shots in the back isn't an option, since they're even weaker than regular cav. Skirmishing doesn't make sense : they have the same range as infantry, are much more vulnerable to fire, and again, can't fire while moving back.
Carabineers and camel gunners are the same - on paper they look as powerful as ever, but in practice, they're suck on a stick.
I'm unhappy about this.
Mystiqblackcat
03-23-2009, 18:37
I'm currently going through a campaign as the French and I have had to re-adjust my tactics with all types of cavalry, but I like it.
Horse archers bugged me but I found ways to deal with them in MTW2. The Dragoons, Light Dragoons, and their equivalents feel pretty good to me. I keep them in hiding until I see an opportunity to move around to the enemy's rear and either melee their artillery or form up behind their general and let loose a volley or two. Essentially I am using them to set up cross fires which normally causes the enemy army to panic and flee.
I understand that the pathing is aggrevating with walls and trees so I just avoid setting them up on obstacles. You just have to move them a couple yards in one direction or another to get nice even ground to set them up on.
Also keep in mind that muskets are very different from bows. These are highly inaccurate weapons when compared to a bow. They best way to guarantee hits is to fire in volleys as they do. A shooting circle isn't going to cut it with muskets. Additionally most of these units are infantry that were just given horses. So just think of them as smaller units of infantry with increased mobility and a higher charge rating, their abilities define their role.
Marquis of Roland
03-23-2009, 18:47
Remember those Spanish dragoons in Kingdoms? lol
Haxamanis
03-23-2009, 19:45
The worst about the horse-archers I think is the reload-time. It takes them almost twice as long to "load" a new arrow than infantry-man to load their muskets...
I was so looking forward to playing with Tatars and Khazaks again in the Russian campaign but, boy, boy are they disappointing. If you don't know, not only do they only fire when the entire unit it at a complete stop
This may not be HA related, as it's true of (almost?) all other units without certain tech upgrades. I've watched multiple units of dragoons and light infantry get hung up on various bits of terrain and take 30-40 seconds to get one or two men sorted out before they started firing despite the other 118 being in rank.
Does anything operate in the "fire while running" fashion anymore?
HAs were only really well represented in STW/MTW imho. In ETW they are underpowered and that is historically plausible. I personally am most happy about this.
Turbosatan
03-23-2009, 20:27
HAs were only really well represented in STW/MTW imho. In ETW they are underpowered and that is historically plausible. I personally am most happy about this.
Ditto.
Sheogorath
03-23-2009, 20:33
Remember those Spanish dragoons in Kingdoms? lol
I always thought of them as some kind of centaur sniper division, trained from birth to pick off a moving target at a full gallon from 100 yards.
I've noticed this in both my Indian and Ottoman campaigns. Not only do mounted archers and gunners not fire on the move as they should, but also they don't skirmish anymore. So, basically like infantry skirmishers they are just expensive suicide troops and no use to anyone.
Personally, I'm rapidly having to rethink my strategy for units in ETW, simply because the historic army compositon can't be used as it should be. I'm even thinking of abandoning muskets armed infantry now simply because they refuse to react sensibly to local threats. It seems the only safe option is to build masses of swordsmen and zerg the whole battlefield.
Oh! BTW - Don't order your men to use their plug bayonets...apparently they don't know how to remove them again so it just converts them into expensive spearmen.
butterfingers158
03-24-2009, 00:10
you aren't supposed to be able to remove plug bayonets, it says so in the description. :/
...and zerg the whole battlefield.
Works for me ;)
except when it doesn't :laugh4:
Suraknar
03-24-2009, 02:43
I find cavalry is not that responsive as in previous games of the series for some reason, maybe it is pathfinding issues.
But they react very slowly, and will not fire if some of the cavalry like 2-3 are still in the move, it seems everyone in the unit must have come in line properly positioned and then only do they fire.
Lets see if things improve next patch.
Kobal2fr
03-24-2009, 09:28
This may not be HA related, as it's true of (almost?) all other units without certain tech upgrades. I've watched multiple units of dragoons and light infantry get hung up on various bits of terrain and take 30-40 seconds to get one or two men sorted out before they started firing despite the other 118 being in rank.
Does anything operate in the "fire while running" fashion anymore?
I realize that, however for me it most often happens to cavalry running around. And it makes sense : if one guy in a marching line battalion gets separated from the pack, he can race and catch up. But a straggler can't run up to an already running unit.
Also, horses really, really have trouble with walls if they don't happen onto them at a perfect 90° angle, and when I'm micro-ing 3 or 4 units of HAs at a time and trying to anticipate the instant the AI unit will volley to move them back just before that, I don't have much time to babysit each...
And Mystiqblackcat, I realize muskets aren't as precise as bows, but I'm not asking for mounted snipers. They can be as inaccurate as blind mice if they want, as long as they fire on the damn move !
I just think if your going to include a unit type in the game, you need to do the research and model the way that unit works on how they actually worked in real life. If you not prepared to do that and make the model unit work the way it should work then you really have no business producing a game based on real history. Go off and make a fantasy game or something, and leave this market to people who care.
antisocialmunky
03-24-2009, 13:03
That's a little harsh isn't it? I rather have ETW than not and getting all bent out of shape over no move shoot on HA is kinda silly. Its understandable if not disappointing that they didn't bother implementing move fire for like 2-3 units.
I think dragoons are quite realistic in many ways. If you don't think so, try reloading your muskets ontop of a horse and getting shot at. It is far more difficult than if you are on foot.
The reason Dragoons went out of favour is exactly that, the line infantry are far superior in terms of firepower and damage and with the advent of the machine gun, they became very expensive cannon fodder.
That's a little harsh isn't it? I rather have ETW than not and getting all bent out of shape over no move shoot on HA is kinda silly. Its understandable if not disappointing that they didn't bother implementing move fire for like 2-3 units.
Perhaps, but it true nevertheless.
There is no requirement on Creative Assembly to produce a game based on real world history. They could just go to town with something like Command and Conquer Red Alert. Instead they chose deliberately to target a market with people like me in it, who have an interest in military history and thus will buy their game simply because its based on actual historical facts.
Having targetted a market that is looking for authenticity, it seems only reasonable to expect that designers bother to do some research and actually produce what they promise. Had ETW featured Orc's and Goblins I might still have bought it, but would really be annoyed if the goblins couldn't fire from the back of their wolves, but the fact is horse archers could and did fire whilst moving. I actually have video footage should how it was done and exactly how accurate it was.
Incidently, just for the record I consider the same rules apply to film makers, and TV producers. Basically, if you can't be bothered to get it right then just don't bother in the first place, would be my message
Originally posted by Didz
Perhaps, but it true nevertheless.
There is no requirement on Creative Assembly to produce a game based on real world history. They could just go to town with something like Command and Conquer Red Alert. Instead they chose deliberately to target a market with people like me in it, who have an interest in military history and thus will buy their game simply because its based on actual historical facts.
Having targetted a market that is looking for authenticity, it seems only reasonable to expect that designers bother to do some research and actually produce what they promise. Had ETW featured Orc's and Goblins I might still have bought it, but would really be annoyed if the goblins couldn't fire from the back of their wolves, but the fact is horse archers could and did fire whilst moving. I actually have video footage should how it was done and exactly how accurate it was.
Incidently, just for the record I consider the same rules apply to film makers, and TV producers. Basically, if you can't be bothered to get it right then just don't bother in the first place, would be my message
From the point of view of the history *buff*, you are exactly right. But its not a secret that TW games arent hardcore games in any of the fields they touch. They are not hardcore wargames, not hardcore historical simulations and not fully mainstream pc games although they are partly all of those. From the point of view of CA its hardly worth it to fully satisfy a part of the fanbase at the cost of not satisfying the others and i dont think that anyone has a right to blame them for their approach. On the other hand fans of one or the other element will always bother to post blaming them, which in a way goes to show how much they are addicted to the game.
From the point of view of the history *buff*, you are exactly right. But its not a secret that TW games arent hardcore games in any of the fields they touch. They are not hardcore wargames, not hardcore historical simulations and not fully mainstream pc games although they are partly all of those. From the point of view of CA its hardly worth it to fully satisfy a part of the fanbase at the cost of not satisfying the others and i dont think that anyone has a right to blame them for their approach. On the other hand fans of one or the other element will always bother to post blaming them, which in a way goes to show how much they are addicted to the game.
True and I still watch 'Sharpe' even though its a load of rubbish. But if you are going to produce something deliberately for sale to people with an interest in history, you better expect to get criticsed when you get it wrong.
One could argue that the role and effectiveness of horse archers is about right even if the implementation is inaccurate - i.e. horse archers by this point have been rendered obsolete by gunpowder weapons. It would be far worse if the game were filled with horse archers wheeling around in circles with line infantry unable to hit them, rendering them overpowered.
It's a little unfair to argue horse archers being unable to fire when moving is down to a lack of research on CA's part, since they have had this ability in previous games; I suspect it has more to do with not wanting to spend too much time making essentially cosmetic changes to what is at best a niche unit and at worst an obsolete curiosity by this stage.
Originally posted by Didz
But if you are going to produce something deliberately for sale to people with an interest in history, you better expect to get criticsed when you get it wrong.
I am sure that counting the sales money of ETW prepares one well for criticism.
al Roumi
03-24-2009, 16:43
One could argue that the role and effectiveness of horse archers is about right even if the implementation is inaccurate - i.e. horse archers by this point have been rendered obsolete by gunpowder weapons. It would be far worse if the game were filled with horse archers wheeling around in circles with line infantry unable to hit them, rendering them overpowered.
It's a little unfair to argue horse archers being unable to fire when moving is down to a lack of research on CA's part, since they have had this ability in previous games; I suspect it has more to do with not wanting to spend too much time making essentially cosmetic changes to what is at best a niche unit and at worst an obsolete curiosity by this stage.
Maybe, but it begs the question as to why bother putting them in the first place?
It feels like the balance and implementation of units in ETW is worse than it was in MTW2. Now obviously I'm talking about MTW2:Kingdoms with a multitude of patches, but ETW just doesn't feel anywhere near as polished.
I hope that the vaunted series of planned updates will address the many niggles and annoyances currently experienced. I can't even list the number of work arounds I've had to come up with to deal with buggy AI and unit "features".
Pain in the ass. I'll not even mention the North American Indian armies.
Playing as Martha, those Camel gunners are quite nice units... except they won't reload unless there's an enemy in range. Rather defeats the whole purpose of shoot and scoot, which is all they can do. They are plain useless most of the time, except that their range sometimes allows them to shoot out garrisoned troops.
Kobal2fr
03-24-2009, 19:23
Playing as Martha, those Camel gunners are quite nice units... except they won't reload unless there's an enemy in range. Rather defeats the whole purpose of shoot and scoot, which is all they can do.
That's also a problem with artillery. They'll only reload if they're in shooting mode. If you have them shoot, then stop for half an hour, then shoot again, they'll only start reloading when you give them the second shooting order. Lazy bums.
That's also a problem with artillery. They'll only reload if they're in shooting mode. If you have them shoot, then stop for half an hour, then shoot again, they'll only start reloading when you give them the second shooting order. Lazy bums.
sounds right to me. How can they anticipate how much powder they will need for the order you're going to give them in half and hour?
On the subject of mounted gunners, i think they should be able to fire one pre-loaded shot in any direction while on the move, but need to stop again to reload. I just don't see how it would be possible to measure powder and load a musket on the move, and of course horse archers should be able to fire constantly even while on the move and in all directions. I haven't used them myself but what's been explained sound pretty silly.
Had ETW featured Orc's and Goblins I might still have bought it, but would really be annoyed if the goblins couldn't fire from the back of their wolves, but the fact is horse archers could and did fire whilst moving. I actually have video footage should how it was done and exactly how accurate it was.
I have it on good authority that, historically, Goblins didnt really ride wolves but preferred bad tempered poodles instead. With video footage as well.
That's also a problem with artillery. They'll only reload if they're in shooting mode. If you have them shoot, then stop for half an hour, then shoot again, they'll only start reloading when you give them the second shooting order. Lazy bums.
My artillery don't seem to suffer from this problem. They will happily reload at any time. Hit enemies? "No, senior, we cannot do that but we reload just fine." :2thumbsup:
I've changed my tactics completely. In RTW and MTW2, I just loved missile cavalry and would go for the factions with good missile cavalry. I'd use them to weaken the enemy so my infantry and melee cavalry would have an easy time mopping them up, if there's still any left.
It's the opposite with Empire. I'm playing as the Dutch and have barely built any cavalry. I haven't built a single one except maybe a couple of dragoons and some light dragoons. I'm just spamming line infantry and bringing 2-4 pieces of artillery to the larger fights. That and a couple of grenadiers as well.
I'm not even bothering with that at the minute, massed sword weilding mobs is the way to go for me.
Just form them in big columns and gank everything that moves.
antisocialmunky
03-26-2009, 05:09
Explosive cannon shell in the face or burning turpentine wad of sheets in the face.
quadalpha
03-26-2009, 06:44
Instead they chose deliberately to target a market with people like me in it
That was their first mistake. :beam:
Most of the time my ranged cavalry are set to skirmish and do a nice job of luring one wing of the enemy to the other edge of the map (where they get slaughtered unless I remember to move them).
I'm not even bothering with that at the minute, massed sword weilding mobs is the way to go for me.
Just form them in big columns and gank everything that moves.
European armies don't have those. =/
I guess line infantry with socket bayonets could do, however.
Mystiqblackcat
03-26-2009, 20:38
I realize that, however for me it most often happens to cavalry running around. And it makes sense : if one guy in a marching line battalion gets separated from the pack, he can race and catch up. But a straggler can't run up to an already running unit.
Also, horses really, really have trouble with walls if they don't happen onto them at a perfect 90° angle, and when I'm micro-ing 3 or 4 units of HAs at a time and trying to anticipate the instant the AI unit will volley to move them back just before that, I don't have much time to babysit each...
And Mystiqblackcat, I realize muskets aren't as precise as bows, but I'm not asking for mounted snipers. They can be as inaccurate as blind mice if they want, as long as they fire on the damn move !
I want to apologize ahead of time if I sound condescending, I do not mean to if I am. A buddy of mine said I was coming off that way and I really just trying to be helpful.
I understand your frustrations, I really do. I am just a very patient person so I over look the pathing problems. I am still looking for new ways to use them effectively. Recently I fought a large action as post revolution France against the Dutch I believe. In any case I used two squads of Carabineers to ride around to the side of the Dutch line who outnumbered me ~1000 to ~750 after battle was joined and had them let loose a couple volleys on their left which helped it to rout allowing me to roll up my right and subsequently helped me win the engagement. The Dutch did send a reserve regiment of foot toward my Light Dragoons but they easily outpaced them and drew them away from the main battle.
Try using them purely as flankers. They aren't good skirmishers because they reload slow and don't have alot of range like light infantry. Use them to attack from unsuspecting angles or to harass lone enemy units. They are great for killing enemy Generals, just ride around to the rear, form up and let loose a few volleys until the bodygaurd starts to move, then retreat and try again after they have reloaded.
Firing a musket while riding a horse would seem to be pretty difficult, and reloading would be impossible. To be fair, I've never fired a musket but I have used a modern black powder rifle which would be easier to fire and reload than an 18th century musket on a moving horse and it still seems like an impossible task. Plus accuracy would greatly suffer if firing on the move, so much so that all you would get for your trouble was alot of noise and smoke but nothing terribly dangerous.
They are great for killing enemy Generals, just ride around to the rear, form up and let loose a few volleys until the bodygaurd starts to move, then retreat and try again after they have reloaded.
There's the rub. I can't get Light Dragoons, Camel Gunners, and the like to reload on horseback for love or money. They absolutely refuse to reload unless there is an enemy in range and they are either ordered to shoot at them or have fire at will turned on.
European armies don't have those. =/
I guess line infantry with socket bayonets could do, however.
One of the things that has impressed me as I've been playing my Ottoman Campaign is the way the technolgy advances affect the face of battle.
My original tactic of massed Jannissary columns has allowed me to dominate the battlefield for about the first 10 years of the campaign. The only thing the Russian's could do to counter them was field more and more cavalry and even that didn't have much effect even though I couldn't form square.
However, a year or so ago a sneaky Russian scholar stole my knowledge of the socket bayonet, and that has actually begun to turn the tables. My Jannissaries still come out top in most fights, but the level of casualties is mounting, and its not unusual now to find Jannisary regiments reduced to 20/120 by the end of a battle.
At the same time my infantry now have socket bayonets too, so they can hold up better themselves in a melee, plus they now have the ability to form square against the Russian horse which the Janissaries can't do.
So, I'm beginning to see that I need to evolve my tactic's now, especially with Jannissary musketeers appearing in the resource pool. Plus....at last....I'm beginning to get some decent cavalry so the old massed swordsmen days are now in decline and Jannissary swordmen regiments are not being replaced if they are lost.
The next big innovation will probably be explosive shells as I'm assuming that high trajectory artillery like mortars might be more useful and less suicidal that cannon as their missiles ought to miss most of the intervening troops even if they do decide to fire.
Kobal2fr
03-27-2009, 07:39
Try using them purely as flankers. They aren't good skirmishers because they reload slow and don't have alot of range like light infantry. Use them to attack from unsuspecting angles or to harass lone enemy units. They are great for killing enemy Generals, just ride around to the rear, form up and let loose a few volleys until the bodygaurd starts to move, then retreat and try again after they have reloaded.
Yeah, that's what I've started doing, and it does work better than using them like in the previous games, as a sort of pre-battle skirmish. This time around, this tactic doesn't work and you really have to wait until the battle proper has begun and both lines are merrily shooting each other at point blank to send the HAs around. Pity. Not sure they're pulling their weight in upkeep that way, but then again as the Russians your line infantry has the properties of a vacuum, so they need all the help they can get :laugh4:
Plus accuracy would greatly suffer if firing on the move, so much so that all you would get for your trouble was alot of noise and smoke but nothing terribly dangerous.
Which is all I'd ask for, really. Unless you use a whole lot of them (something I simply can't do, I get overwhelmed trying to get all of them out of harm's way), HAs aren't killers, but their mere presence round the back and the woosh woosh of arrows (or, as the case may be, bullets) coming from the back does wonders on enemy morale.
What I hoped for (and was used to) was a quick run up to them, volley, then split up and move to the flanks in a Y, running like hell at the first sign of serious trouble or, god forbid, if archers stop moving. That way, their foot troops entered the fray with lower morale and maybe even tired already if they foolishly tried to run after the horsemen.
This doesn't work in Empire. At all.
Mystiqblackcat
03-27-2009, 15:43
There's the rub. I can't get Light Dragoons, Camel Gunners, and the like to reload on horseback for love or money. They absolutely refuse to reload unless there is an enemy in range and they are either ordered to shoot at them or have fire at will turned on.
I haven't tested it out to check it but that is an annoying bug. I understand not reloading when on the move, but they definitely should reload if they are standing around idly.
I'll have to test the mounted reload thing, however, I know for a fact that my Ottoman infantry skirmishers reload when idle because I used that trait to good effect to massacre a whole Cossack regiment using 'shoot and scoot' tactic's. A lot of micro-management that should have been done automatically by the skirmish button but nevertheless it did work.
I'll have to test the mounted reload thing, however, I know for a fact that my Ottoman infantry skirmishers reload when idle because I used that trait to good effect to massacre a whole Cossack regiment using 'shoot and scoot' tactic's. A lot of micro-management that should have been done automatically by the skirmish button but nevertheless it did work.
I have no issues with foot skirmishers. It's just mounted troops with muskets. It's especially frustrating with units like Camel Gunners, who have a reload skill of FIVE. Unless the enemy sits still, they are basically one shot ponies... errr, camels.
antisocialmunky
03-27-2009, 19:26
Does anyone else think the mounted reloading animation looks funny for carbineless units because more often than not they are rubbing their guns quite vigorously?
"A man gets... lonely out in the desert..."
One of the things that has impressed me as I've been playing my Ottoman Campaign is the way the technolgy advances affect the face of battle.
My original tactic of massed Jannissary columns has allowed me to dominate the battlefield for about the first 10 years of the campaign. The only thing the Russian's could do to counter them was field more and more cavalry and even that didn't have much effect even though I couldn't form square.
However, a year or so ago a sneaky Russian scholar stole my knowledge of the socket bayonet, and that has actually begun to turn the tables. My Jannissaries still come out top in most fights, but the level of casualties is mounting, and its not unusual now to find Jannisary regiments reduced to 20/120 by the end of a battle.
At the same time my infantry now have socket bayonets too, so they can hold up better themselves in a melee, plus they now have the ability to form square against the Russian horse which the Janissaries can't do.
So, I'm beginning to see that I need to evolve my tactic's now, especially with Jannissary musketeers appearing in the resource pool. Plus....at last....I'm beginning to get some decent cavalry so the old massed swordsmen days are now in decline and Jannissary swordmen regiments are not being replaced if they are lost.
The next big innovation will probably be explosive shells as I'm assuming that high trajectory artillery like mortars might be more useful and less suicidal that cannon as their missiles ought to miss most of the intervening troops even if they do decide to fire.
Yes, that's what I like about ETW. Unfortunately, I played UP and didn't get a second college until almost 30 years in.
Honestly, artillery sucks until you get the upgrades at the bottom. Howitzers are definitely a step up against troops since you can put them in the back and better protect them. Explosive shells don't do it for me since they explode too early too often. Carcass shot wasn't lethal enough, either. Quicklime is pretty decent when you're hitting a mass of enemy troops but even then, the killing power really isn't there. Shrapnel shot is ok but only the more vulnerable cannons can use them and they get easily blocked by things such as sandbags. Horse artillery isn't that great as limbering/unlimbering is too clunky and the AI's cavalry kamikaze tactic is too effective against artillery in general. Even if you manage to repel them, too many are dead, and the horses have all ran off the battlefield, making limbering not an option anymore. I still have 2 upgrades left, I think, so those might change my opinion.
Same with the firing tech advances. Fire by rank is better at causing morale drops, not sure if it improves rate of fire or killing power compared to the normal one. I think it does, but can't be sure. It seems kinda buggy, however. I've had problems firing from cover ever since getting fire by rank. It seems if the entire rank can't fire, they won't bother firing from cover at all. I don't have much experience with platoon firing yet. It does seem to improve rate of fire but UP is limited to grenadiers (too small to really be effective) and guards (only 6 guards available at any time).
I didn't bother researching improved carbines until late because I've been underwhelmed by them. I guess using them as flankers would work better, but it takes too much micromanagement. Dismounting them after flanking would probably be better. I haven't used cavalry much. Then again, the Dutch roster is pretty crappy.
About the explosive shot, wait until you get the percussion caps I think it is. Last or second to last on the artillery tech tree. No more exploding in mid air. With 3 large mortars I can normally get 3 or 4 enemy units to rout before they come in range. And even when they are shooting it out with my line the fact they fire over the top means no friendly casualties, or a lot less.
You gotta problem with horse archers, son?
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