The Turks in Lands to Conquer mod

[Empirate]

Hi folks,
I'm playing the Turks in Lusted's much-acclaimed Lands to Conquer mod (H/H), and it's proving quite a challenge! If any of you ever finished a Turk LTC campaign, I'd be grateful for any advice you might have.

Right now I'm in a more-or-less powerful position, with every settlement between Nicaea and Baghdad under my control (that makes 14 in all). Antioch and Nicosia mark the southern border, although I had taken Damascus for a few turns before leaving it to rebel. The problem is holding onto all my lands! I'm lacking quality and quantity in my armies (only my mastery of battle tactics :charge: is keeping me afloat atm), I'm lacking strategic security (a single crusade could topple my house of cards), and overall I'm lacking money. It's the year 1220 now, the Byzantines and Egyptians are harassing me with fleets and quality full stacks, and I find it near impossible to save up any money. It's horribly hard to tech up my settlements, as I simply don't have the money! Six or seven settlements need basic upgrades (walls/castle), which I can't afford, and better military units seem a long way off at this pace. I manage to earn around 4,000 fl. per turn, which are usually spent on economy upgrades and unit retraining. LTC mod really makes it difficult to become rich! I feel a little like this: :tredmil:

Strategy-wise, I tried to expand into all rebel-held provinces at once, quickly taking Tbilisi, Baghdad, Smyrna, and Trebizond, with Adana and Antioch close behind. Aleppo and Edessa were taken at a more leisurely pace (only about 30 turns back). I've been at war with the Byzzies almost from the beginning, as they saw fit to siege freshly taken Smyrna. I beat them off and ran their army all the way back to Nicaea, which I promptly sieged and conquered. After that, they only sent the occasional stack into my lands, and I was able to keep them in check pretty easily. Only their fleet blockades cost me a great deal of money.

The Egyptians are more dangerous, though, and very aggressive. Every four to five turns, they send a complete army against Antioch or Aleppo. I have a field army there, with constant reinforcements coming from Adana, and it sees a lot of action. Their fleets are also troublesome. After a while, I decided to invest three or four turns' earnings in a decent fleet to sink their ships, and while I can keep them off my back most of the time, the upkeep uses up all the trade money my fleet saves me.
So that's the general situation. I can't seem to make any progress on either front. Luckily, the Mongols have gone north to bother the Russians, and crusades have only been called against the Sicilians (who had Rome at one point). But this won't last forever.

Comments and suggestions welcome!

:phonecall:

Anybody there?

[Ramses II CP]

Don't fight a war on two fronts. It's strategically obvious, eh? If you weren't used to MTWII vanilla you wouldn't even consider such a mad course! Make peace, no matter the cost, on one front and proceed with the war on the other. You'll get a decent boost of trade income and the ability to concentrate your forces.

I would recommend peace with the Egyptians. They have other problems, the Byzantines, however, are always going to be back again soon. Give the Eggies some territory if you have to, just get 'em off your back until you get to Constantinople. After you capture Con you'll have a great defensive position in the west and you can refocus.

If you don't find a way to make peace with someone you're going to get gobsmacked when the Mongols arrive.

:egypt:

[Empirate]

The Mongols have arrived. The Russians are having a lot of fun with them right now, as I hear tell from the northern steppes. Which are far away from my borders, incidentally.
Peace with the Egyptians is a nice idea. I was at peace with them twice by agreeing to become their vassal. Peace lasted for one full turn each time :thumbsdown:. I guess, if they're willing to attack their own vassal, there's not much I can do to appease them, right? The Byzzies only recently reopened hostilities, they're much the lesser threat.

Your input is welcome, and under normal circumstances, I'd agree fully. Only this game doesn't behave that normal until now. Crusade problems? Nope. Byzzies, Eggies easy to beat? Nuh-uh. Mongols a serious threat? Not around here. So what's the freaking problem? Money, disrupted trade, and too many settlements that just barely pay their own upkeep. No breathing room to upgrade and have a little peace.

[Kobal2fr]

I've been starting and dropping lots and lots of Turkish LTC campaigns for the reasons you outline. It is very, very hard to get some coin rolling in for some reason, and while to a point this is true of most factions in LTC (as per design), I find the Turks are the ones hit hardest by the increased pop. caps + decreased farming and trading revenue. Add to that their very poor starting roster, and the fact that said roster makes it quite hard for them to take cities (their good units are pretty much stricly HAs, which are useless in siege battles) and you've got one hard faction to play.

My usual strategy is to make peace with the Egyptians ASAP, let them have Antioch (that way I have nothing for them to invade me over) and try to move further west into Turkey and hopefully to Constantinople, but my funds always run out long before I can do that, and the Byzantines basically grind me down with an endless flow of cheap spearmen stacks + god knows how many faction heirs. Even Iconium (which was a major cash cow in the vanilla game) barely makes enough dough to cover the upkeep of half a stack of crappy troops :/

[regor]

Not very helpful now, but consider turning some castles into cities. Anatolia has some castles witch are nigh useless (Aleppo/Adana, Trebizond/Tiblisi come immediately to mind).

You only need one castle per front; while one army (say, half a stack - 10 units) is fighting, the other is retraining. So you need two full stacks of troops and four generals - all else is free city upkeeep.
Make them all HA stacks, and retreat once the arrows run out - the rest can be dealt with by your militia defending the towns.

Consider taking Cyprus and Rhodes - they will boost you economy, since LTC places a premium on trade, and being at war with the Bizzies loses you those trade partners. Consider also taking the Crimea, probably from the rebels(?).

If all else fails, you can always sneak attack the enemy in the rear and sack his rich, but always poorly defended cities for easy florints.

[Vladimir]

Consider raids and Jihad. You don't need to hold Greek cities but good use of spies and cavalry will allow you to take a city, do what you will with it, then leave. This nearly eliminates the threat. You are in a good position because you don't need to worry about reputation. Put them all to the sword and reduce their cities.

[Empirate]

Thanks for the input. I converted Aleppo, Tbilisi, and Caesarea to cities. I also took Cyprus and converted Nicosia into another city. This left me with four fortresses (Trebizond, Mosul, Smyrna, Adana), and all of these except Trebizond have proved very useful.
I don't like the sack&retreat tactic, it feels cheap somehow. I'd use it against a human player, but the AI will be hopelessly diminished this way, making the game less fun. I have taken to sacking rich cities I want to keep, though, although I hate the long population buildup this makes necessary.

All in all, my situation has quite improved. I was able to take Damascus from the Egyptians and Constantinople from the Byzantines, making my life much easier on both fronts. The Byzantines have been largely unable to field any large armies after Constantinople was gone. As Rhodes has been taken by the Venetians and Cyprus by me, they're left with only three provinces. The Egyptians lost a full stack plus their Sultan at sea, and I took Damascus the next year. Ever since, they've been more or less quiet, though they keep blockading my ports.
Money has become less tight, and I'm actually building some troop training facilities now. Wow, I'm already up to Turkish Archers in Adana and Saracen Militia in Antioch... :embarassed:
So things are looking up, or were, until a crusade was declared on Antioch (with three nations joining in immediately), and the Mongols are coming at Tbilisi from the northern steppes. Looks like it might be one hell of a game!

[Unhinged_Loon]

You'll be fine with Turkish Archers and Saracen Militia. They are a solid backbone for your armies for a long while.

I think your main problem was initially not targetting the richest provinces. I've completed 4 Turkish LTC campaigns and think they are the most fun around. There is little profit in going north, the towns between the Turks and the Russians are no use to anyone. However, both the Egyptians and Byzantians have rich cities.

1. Egypt are the more dangerous long term if allowed to live in peace. I always agressively expand against them early. You should set your sites on Acre and Damascus as your early southern border...keeps them away from Antioch, which can be a hugely profitable city. I don't think there is any real answer to their fleets except build you own. Fleets get experience quickly with a few wins and then can safely keep the Eggies in port. If you've started late you have a bit of a hill to climb as the Eggies might have an experienced fleet. I find the Byzzie ships easier meat so you could try targeting them first.
Once battered back beyond...say Gaza, the Eggies can be comfortably left to their own devices. Even if they get jumpy, they'll probably bash their heads against Gaza...which is fine.

2. Byzantium are a paper tiger. As you have found, take Constantinople and they fade to mere annoyances. I've often tried to limit myself to Anatolia, leaving the Byzzies a strong base in Greece as a buffer against the Catholic nations...but they simply won't have it. Even if you don't want it long term, take the city and then give it back. It puts them more in the mood to talk peace. Or, take this gem of a city, fortify it heavily. Place a fleet at both ends of the Bosphorous and build a merchant's guild there. Your money worries are over. Plus, of course, you can block the crusade route with a few spare ships and force them through Russian lands.

Don't forget to use Jihads...especially against the damned Byzzies. The Ghazi infantry are excellent for taking walls (there won't be many left though!) and stops you having to camp your horses outside while they starve.



On a down note...it sounds like you may have left it too late on this campaign. The Mongols may have gone North (they NEVER do that with me!) but the fancy Elephant riders will not.

[Yesugey]

Uhm, Turkish are one of the hardest faction to play, because of limited income issues.

But Horse Archers are most devastating units in the game, and my advice is disturb the enemy stacks every turn with them. If you face with long range archers, charge them, but stop before hitting, that will distrubt their position, so they will stop firing. Also, you can chase down any routing units.

That way, even you lose the battle, enemy will suffer casualties but you will not. And sieging with Horse archers can be good, courage the enemy to sally and crush them with encircling them.