Question on Ottoman armies

[Fiddling_nero]

Is there a reason why there is such a poor variety of cavalry for the Turkish unit roster?
Did they get soft and ignore their cavalry traditions? Were they forced to change their tactics with a greater emphasis on siege craft/skirmishing? Or is it just an oversight by CA?

The dichotomy between Deli Horsemen and Saphis is staggering.
:charge: :charge: :charge:

[al Roumi]

I'm not aware of there having been great camel regiments in Ottoman armies either, but they seem to be more widely available to recruit than Delhi Horsemen...

I haven't quite got far enough to recruit western style units yet, but I'm guessing it's not possible to recruit African/Indian colonial/native troops in either North Africa or India -as with Christian European factions. Which is maybe odd/unfair.

[anweRU]

It is an oversight on CAs part I'd say. Though the 17th through 19th centuries saw the steady decline of the cavalry and the associated timariot system as musket-wielding infantry and artillery came to dominate the battlefield. The Turkish cavalry had their last hurrah in the Turkish War of Independence, 1919-22, were they succeeded briliantly.

Back to E:TW I would like to have seen musket-wielding mounted cavalry and horse archers in the game for the Turks. It is true that the sipahi gave up firearms shortly after trying them out in the 16th century, but they did make a come back.

[Darth Venom]

Back to E:TW I would like to have seen musket-wielding mounted cavalry and horse archers in the game for the Turks. It is true that the sipahi gave up firearms shortly after trying them out in the 16th century, but they did make a come back.

Iirc Deli Horsemen do have muskets and you can recruit horse archers in some Caucasian provinces...

For my part I don't think the Ottoman Cavalry is lacking. The only thing that is missing is a early, non-ranged, light cavalry, which is alright because this adds to variety and different tactics.

[anweRU]

Oops then. I haven't played the Ottomans yet. I thought they were a form of light cavalry.

Anyway, why call them "Deli Horsemen". Deli = Crazy in Turkish. The names of the Yeni Ceri's are also weird. Cemaat = Community.

[leothtang]

I thought that the Mamluks would be in the game too. They are featured in the unit section of the official web page. They mention them employed by the ottomans. Weirdly, there is no Mamluks in this game....

[Relic]

I thought that the Mamluks would be in the game too. They are featured in the unit section of the official web page. They mention them employed by the ottomans. Weirdly, there is no Mamluks in this game....

I'm pretty sure I've seen them as an Emergant Faction, was it RTI Chapter 3/4?

[Sheogorath]

Oops then. I haven't played the Ottomans yet. I thought they were a form of light cavalry.

Anyway, why call them "Deli Horsemen". Deli = Crazy in Turkish. The names of the Yeni Ceri's are also weird. Cemaat = Community.

I guess by 'cemaat' they were going for something like 'town', perhaps? Trying to imply some kind of...uh...militia Janissary?
Seems rather dumb to me :\

But yeah, there were reports (up until and during the Napoleonic wars) that the Ottomans fielded a variety of cavalry, including what were, essentially, medeivally armored heavy cavalry, with lances and chain mail, or even partial plate in the Eastern style.

While obviously difficult to confirm, as the only reports are from European soldiers and, as we all know, Europeans tend to exaggerate things while overseas, it still seems quite obvious that the Turks would have quite a lot of cavalry and some variety in it.

But then we come back to the lazy unit designer, who probably figured that he'd done enough with the Ottomans by giving them an essentially entirely unique unit roster.

[anweRU]

It is entirely possible that they meant some sort of "militia" Janissary. By 1700 the Janissary had degenerated. With the Devshirme practice ended, the Janissaries began recruiting from local Muslim populations. There were local Janissary units and of course the main force in Istanbul.

I suppose that is what CA was alluding to?

Historical note: The Janissaries were effectively finished as a fighting force with the loss of the slave-soldier status. The Ottomans essentially fought a static front war with the Austrians and later the Russians for well over two centuries, from the early 1600s to the 1800s. So, with the prospect of booty gone, the free men who joined the Janissary regiments would rather stay at home. The musket armed units raised by the Pashas who were the governors of the various districts performed better than most Janissary units at this time.

[Sheogorath]

They may not have been an effective fighting force, but my impression is that they were still pretty picky about how they were employed. Not to mention they apparently compelled every new Sultan to give them a pay raise, meaning that by this time they were all quite rich.

Sort of like European 'gentlemen soldier', I dont think a Janissary would even come close to associating himself with a 'militia'.

The Siphai's were the true loyal soldiers of the Ottoman Empire. I always get a giggle when I hear the phrase, 'Cavalry don't mutiny.'

[anweRU]

Actually, the Sipahi mutinied many times. Probably as often as the Janissaries.

When the Janissaries mutinied, they would overturn their regimental couldron. Hence the idiom "kazan kaldirmak", "to overturn the couldron", in Turkish, which means to mutiny.

When the Sipahi mutinied (on campaign), they could cut the ropes of the commander's (sultan's/ vezir's/ pasha's) tent, and let it fly into the wind.

[Sheogorath]

That's why that phrase makes me giggle :P

Still, the Sipahi took the 'right' side when the Sultan disbanded the Janissary Corps, so they got the whole aura of loyalty and goodness :gring:

I guess that's the good part about having two arms of the military that hate each other. Probably why the US hasn't experienced a coup yet.

[Fondor_Yards]

I haven't quite got far enough to recruit western style units yet, but I'm guessing it's not possible to recruit African/Indian colonial/native troops in either North Africa or India -as with Christian European factions. Which is maybe odd/unfair.

They get the Native American Auxillia, but no Indian or African special units. Which makes sense for Africa since many Ottoman troops where African.

[sandrue]

hey guys. my first post here. been lurking here for a while. thought i'd give my two cents about the cemaat yeniceri question. here's from wikipedia:


The corps was divided into three sub-corps:

* the cemaat (frontier troops; also spelled jemaat), with 101 ortas
* the beyliks or beuluks (the Sultan's own bodyguard), with 61 ortas
* the sekban or seirnen, with 34 ortas

In addition there were also 34 ortas of the ajemi (cadets).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary (first post, no link allowed, copy-paste people:))

the thing about cemaat is that it does not refer to any community, it refers to an islamic group of people. (as in a group of people gathered in a mosque for namaz is called cemaat) the jenissaries were part of the bektashi order, the term cemaat probably has to do with that. or possibly the word meant something else in ottoman turkish that has been lost in modern turkish.

about deli; "delil" means "evidence" in modern turkish but in old usage it also meant "scout" which the deli troops were. they were famous for being the most daredevil troops in the ottoman army, it is said that they had a fatalistic outlook, and weren't afraid of death. so the folks started calling them "deli" as in "mad".

anyways, have fun guys:)

[anweRU]

They get the Native American Auxillia, but no Indian or African special units. Which makes sense for Africa since many Ottoman troops where African.

?

The Ottoman Turks relied heavily on troops recruited from the Balkans and Anatolia, and to a lesser extent the Middle Eastern provinces. The Barbary States were nominally part of the Empire, but their Beys / Deys (however you want to call them) acted on their own. Though their contribution to the Ottoman navy was significant (the best Ottoman admirals were recruited from the Barbary states), I am not aware of their contributing any land troops ever. The campaign season would have been over before any troops reached the front.

The only time I know of for certain that Ottomans used African troops is the 1911 war with Italy, when the Italians invaded Libya. And those probably would have been Bedouin.

[Fondor_Yards]

They do still have full control over Egypt. And I don't think that Ottoman troops recruited from Africa would be very different from troops recruit in Turkey or Syria.

[anweRU]

They do still have full control over Egypt. And I don't think that Ottoman troops recruited from Africa would be very different from troops recruit in Turkey or Syria.

Egyptian troops would be mostly Arab, and considered Middle Eastern.

African troops is a term that usually refers to sub-Saharan colonial troops.

[Didz]

Yep! I'm well down the tech tree in my Ottoman Campaign and still no decent cavalry. In fact the best I've found so far are actually camels.:no:

[Marquis of Roland]

Their cavalry might suck but those guys with the grenade launchers are insane. They fire those things faster than I can fire bullets lol.

[Major Robert Dump]

On VH/VH all my excursions with the grenade launchers have ended in a ball of fiery friendly fire and explosions, except for when i started using them as meat shields like i do the peasants. That worked.

I'll stick to grenadiers