why are the roman units so cheap?

[anubis88]

is that for rapresenting their numerical superiority over the other nations? I mean their units are so cheap i never even bother playing with them for a long time, since i always swim in cash

[Tartaros]

because they are levy units.

like pantodapai phalangitai
330mnai / 122 persons = 2,70 mnai per person

hastati
256mnai / 82 persons = 3,12 mnai per person

[/Bean\]

During the Republic the men of the legions supply their own equipment. Thus the upkeep represents the food costs and such, compared to the more elite units of other factions' proffessional armies whose weapons and equipment were supplied by the state.

[antisocialmunky]

I'm not sure what factions were actually 'professional' during this time period. The Roman Legions are cheap to represent the Roman Republic massive manpower reserves.

[/Bean\]

Professional armies, not professional factions. The Romans had professional armies after the Marian reforms, as an example. Beforehand they had a civilian army, like many other city state based empires.

[Prussian to the Iron]

so then the next question i guess is:

what other countries historically had profesional armies, when and how professional?

im especially curious about carthage, because north africa would be hard to have professional armies bbesides maybe seleukia and egypt.

[Apázlinemjó]

Carthage used mercenaries mostly, since they didn't really field professional constant army. The Sacred Band was an exception. :dizzy2:

[Darth Stalin]

Nope.
The fielded quite large contingents of subject people, mostly Lybians and Libo-Poenicians, as well as allied people - Numidians, Siculi etc. People of Libya had to give qute substantial numbers of men-at-arms into Punic army.
Besides the Carthaginian citizens manned warships, which also meant quite a large war effort, given the numbers of ships - and there were always far less carthaginian citizens than Roman citizens.

[antisocialmunky]

Correct me because I'm probably wrong but the Macedonians had a fairly professional army after the reforms of Phillip to the late Hellenistic Period in Macedonia didn't they? Professional as in uniformly trained, cosntantly standing, and state equipped.

[satalexton]

I thought the Pezhetairoi are still technically a citizen troop. They just happened to be rich enough to not have to till their land themselves thanks to their slaves, which they use their free time to attend state-run drilling sessions. I'm pretty sure they still have to provide their own arms though. It's just that they are more than wealthy enough to meet the armament standards thanks to all the state subsidies they recieve.

[chairman]

Professional soldiers are those whose main occupation is the military. While Makedonian soldiery up to the time of the later reforms might not be considered professional, Seleukid klerouchoi were certainly professional in the same way that feudal knights were, that is, landed military families whose original purpose as land-owners was to fund their military expenses.

As to who else in the time period could be considered professional: Spartans, any mercanaries like Rhodian and Balearic Slingers, Kretans, etc, Liby-Phoenician solders, the Silver Shields, etc.

Chairman

[Atilius]

Correct me because I'm probably wrong but the Macedonians had a fairly professional army after the reforms of Phillip to the late Hellenistic Period in Macedonia didn't they? Professional as in uniformly trained, cosntantly standing, and state equipped.The Macedonian army led by Antigonos against Kleomenes in the campaign which concluded at Sellasia (222 BC) was not a standing army. Polybios writes (2.54-5):


By this time winter was approaching, and Antigonus travelled to Aegium to attend the assembly of the Achaean League. He dismissed his Macedonian troops to allow them to winter at home, but himself remained in the Peloponnese, to discuss the present situation with the Achaeans and concert plans for the future.

At the same time Cleomenes had noted that Antigonus had dismissed his Macedonian troops, and kept only his mercenaries under arms while he spent his time at Aegium,...

It makes no sense to dismiss professional troops from a battle zone (a situation which Kleomenes took advantage of) so we must conclude that Antigonos' "Macedonians" (in contrast to his "mercenaries") were not professionals, and needed to return home to bring in the harvest.

[Prussian to the Iron]

Correct me because I'm probably wrong but the Macedonians had a fairly professional army after the reforms of Phillip to the late Hellenistic Period in Macedonia didn't they? Professional as in uniformly trained, cosntantly standing, and state equipped.

haha, thats actually the next quetion i had. :laugh4:

[Macilrille]

Though officially a citizen militia the Roman Army was close to professional. Service time averaged six years all during the Republic, six years away from farms essentially ruined many farmers. This is a well-known part of the reason for the fall of the Res Publica Romana that I have outlined elsewhere and though it was most obvious in the late republic it was a continuing and developing trend through all the Republic's history. Consider the case of Cincinnatus who hurried to win the war and get back to his farm, ostensibly because otherwise his family would starve. Roman citizens could be away for war for six years at a time because Rome developed into a slave economy from the many POWs, but this also spelled the doom of the middle class Roman peasantry that made up 95% of the army. This is all well known, if not, read Brunt. But six years in arms and loss of farms = professional soldiers.

Check Brunt, "Social Conflict in The Republic of Rome" is the short version, or the long "Italian Manpower" both 1971 (800+ pages).

[piratehooker]

like pantodapai phalangitai
330mnai / 122 persons = 2,70 mnai per person


are you sure?? the same guys in my game are worth over a thousand mnai!

[Rilder]

330 Mnai = Upkeep not recruitment costs.

[O'ETAIPOS]

Correct me because I'm probably wrong but the Macedonians had a fairly professional army after the reforms of Phillip to the late Hellenistic Period in Macedonia didn't they? Professional as in uniformly trained, cosntantly standing, and state equipped.

This is not fully true. In the hellenistic age I would compare Macedonian system to the system used by modern states that use draft. Macedonian draft age was from 15 till 55, though usually only those over 20 were drafted. From 15 till 20-25 they had to take part in training organised in the cites where at first they trained physically and later also formation fighting. At some point they were given weapons, but it is not sure if they were given everything or just sarissa and shield. Those weapons were stored in armouries in major cities that served as points were drafted men gathered. It seems that there were four such cities and that either 1/4 or 3/4 of the total was drafted each year. If enemy threatened lands of Kingdom full draft was sometimes ordered, like before Kynoskefalai.

It seems that in this period macedonian infantry lacked "full army" training that made Philip II and Alexander's army such a formindable force. This made phalanx vulnerable to fractures like in the battle at Pydna where various speirai advanced and retreated separately, thus opening gaps used by Romans. For example Agema pushed so deep into roman formation that they become completely separated and surrounded.

[piratehooker]

oh thanks sorry :embarassed:

[antisocialmunky]

This is not fully true. In the hellenistic age I would compare Macedonian system to the system used by modern states that use draft. Macedonian draft age was from 15 till 55, though usually only those over 20 were drafted. From 15 till 20-25 they had to take part in training organised in the cites where at first they trained physically and later also formation fighting. At some point they were given weapons, but it is not sure if they were given everything or just sarissa and shield. Those weapons were stored in armouries in major cities that served as points were drafted men gathered. It seems that there were four such cities and that either 1/4 or 3/4 of the total was drafted each year. If enemy threatened lands of Kingdom full draft was sometimes ordered, like before Kynoskefalai.

It seems that in this period macedonian infantry lacked "full army" training that made Philip II and Alexander's army such a formindable force. This made phalanx vulnerable to fractures like in the battle at Pydna where various speirai advanced and retreated separately, thus opening gaps used by Romans. For example Agema pushed so deep into roman formation that they become completely separated and surrounded.

Good information, thanks. Love being wrong on this forum. :)