Questions about how ancient republics worked

[Jarardo]

Hello! I know there's a lot of people on here who would know this stuff, I would appreciate any info on how some of this stuff worked.

1. How did ancient republics raise armies? I understand that there may have been many different procedures in different time frames. From what I understand, in a feudal system, lords would raise soldiers from their respective fiefs. Any different methods that were used for either Rome/Carthage would be great.

2. What role did the Patrician family's play? Did they own land they were responsible for protecting/paying taxes on? I understand the feudal system a little better, and I'm interested in the differences.

3. Were non patricians allowed to own land? If so on what scale?

Thanks for any info, feel free to endow me with any other interesting knowledge about how these governments functioned.

[machinor]

1. I'm not sure if I remember the procedure correctly, but there were special magistrates (the censors) who gathered information on citizens. How much land and/or money they owned etc. According to that, they were registrated and according to that, they got told in which part of the army they had to serve (Accensi, Hastati, Principes, etc.) since in the Pre-Marian army, the soldiers had to pay for their own equipment. So it would have been impossible for a small farmer to serve as Princeps since that gear was quite expensive (shield, mail, weapons). The Patricians were nobility whose wealth was based on owning land. I'm not sure but I think they're were not allowed to participate in commerce. The Equestrians were the bourgeoisie so to speak. They were not nobility but quite wealthy since their wealth comes from commerce. Especially in the Late Roman Republic they were becoming increasingly filthily rich, against some of those people today's super-rich would be mere beggars. The Equestrians had to serve as cavalry since they could afford horses. This is quite different from feudal systems where usually the nobility provides the cavalry. But Roman cavalry never really was something prestigious.
The citizen army of the Republic was organised like a militia. Citizens would participate in regular exercise and in the event of a war, they would be levied.

2. The Patricians were the landowning nobility. The were not responsible for protecting their land specifically. I'm not sure about the taxing. For some offices it was necessary to be a patrician in order to be able to assume it (like the consulate, if I'm not mistaken).

3. Yes, non-patricians were allowed to own land. In fact the bulk of the (citizen) population were free farmers. Being a farmer was a very prestigious profession. The crisis of the Late Roman Republic has to do with farmers being unable to take care of their land because constant wars kept them away from their land. A great many of them impoverished and had to sell their land cheap to wealthy patricians who accumulated enormous estates making them even richer. The farmers who sold their land would then lease it from the patricians. Thus the foundation of the army deteriorated and there was a lot of social tension. There have been many attempts to introduce new laws limiting the amount of land one person could own but they were all foiled by the short-sighted patrician opposition (some quite violently... the attempts of the Gracchi for example).

[Macilrille]

I have some small knowledge of this, enough that I will not answer the question as it would basically take hours, which I do not have ATM.

When you installed EB you agreed to read more history, I suggest Brunt's "Social Conflicts in The Roman Republic" as it is a good and short analysis, if you are up to more, check his "Italian manpower", both are from 1971, but are excellent analysis of the matter that has still to be contradicted or superceeded.

For the other republics, like the Polis of the Hellenes, I do not know.

BTW, "Feudalism" was somewhat more complicated than that as well. This subject I have much more knowledge of, or rather on the Middle Age, I would suggest Susan Reynolds' groundbreaking, but boring, work "Fiefs and Vassals".

And this is where I shut my gob before I start being tedious.

[penguinking]

For your first question, I know little about Carthage or Rome, but I can give some information on how the Athens conscripted soldiers.

When Athens became aware of Philip's invasion in 339 BC, they levied a defense force by using fire signals and trumpets, and the next dawn Greek men from Athens and the surrounding areas would meet in a designated area with their equipment. This method was fast, but tended to result in men getting left behind, or simply not showing up, and was reserved for emergencies.

In the 5th century, generals would raise smaller forces by simply posting the names of men in the marketplace. Failure to show up was desertion. This method insured that generals could pick the best men, but it resulted in the same men being picked over and over for military services, and of course the general's personal friendships could also play a role. The Athenians saw this as very unfair.

Later, the Athenians switched to a system more like the Spartan system, where men were divided into groups based on age, starting at age 18, and the Athenians would simply call up any number of age groups, depending on what the situation required.

Soldiers would be expected to supply their own equipment and also bring provisions; however, a soldier only really needed a spear and shield to serve as a hoplite- body armor was not required- so the cost was generally not prohibitive, even for the working class. The price has been estimated at around 25 drachmas, approximately a month's pay for a skilled worker. The Greeks generally regarded extensive weapons training as unnecessary, although some Greeks practiced this in private, and focused instead on training to improve fitness. Under these circumstances, it was difficult for a unit to do much formation drill.

For more detail consult Greek Warfare: Myths and Realities by Hans van Wees.

[Rilder]

In the 5th century, generals would raise smaller forces by simply posting the names of men in the marketplace. Failure to show up was desertion.


"Man I don't feel like going to the market, lets just stay home and relax today"

*Next day*

"Your under Arrest for desertion, you are to be executed at dawn"


:laugh4:

[A Very Super Market]

Oh yes, people who don't visit me are known to be executed by our great king.... uh.....

(AVSM, hanged for his failure of knowing thine king's name)

[penguinking]

"Man I don't feel like going to the market, lets just stay home and relax today"

*Next day*

"Your under Arrest for desertion, you are to be executed at dawn"


:laugh4:

:laugh4:

Actually, the Athenian penalty for desertion (actually, I guess this would technically be draft dodging, but the penalty was the same) was loss of citizenship, and possibly a fine and/or confiscation of property.

[Cyclops]

Hello! I know there's a lot of people on here who would know this stuff, I would appreciate any info on how some of this stuff worked.

1. How did ancient republics raise armies? I understand that there may have been many different procedures in different time frames. From what I understand, in a feudal system, lords would raise soldiers from their respective fiefs. Any different methods that were used for either Rome/Carthage would be great.

Typically early Republican Rome raised armies by holding an annual rally of military "classes" based on wealth. Show up with you weapons, have a practise and maybe vote about going to war that year. Everyone knew when the annual get together was, and it could also be used to vote on politcal as well as military issues.

There were also "private armies" fielded by wealthy family consisting of their clients (a somewhat feudal feature) in the very early republic (pre EB). I imagine there was a similar practical procedure (get together, practise, the boss says go home or march out to war).

Carthage used mecernaries a lot, but apparently they adipted some Greek ideas from that Spartan chap (Xanthippus?) who makes an appearance in EB.


2. What role did the Patrician family's play? Did they own land they were responsible for protecting/paying taxes on? I understand the feudal system a little better, and I'm interested in the differences.

I beleive the Patricians were the old elite who had the right to hold priesthoods and public offcies like Praetor (the generals in the very early republic). I think initially all senators were Patrician? Anyway they had a strong hold on public offices under the Kings and early republic. A lot of their wealth was from land but they were not the only landholders, just the big ones. Over time some lost their wealth and some of the lower classes gained, which put pressure on the "status quo".

This led to their control being loosened by plebian agitation and "new rich" men looking for a role in the Republic. Eventually the roman class system became more open to money than blood. The "conflct of the orders " is pretty obscure as it was done and dusted in the 4th century, before the EB timeframe and almost all surviving histories so we get the rosy version "after a few frank discussions everyone agreed to some reasonable reforms, and that thing with the bloodshed was just a misunderstanding".


3. Were non patricians allowed to own land? If so on what scale?

Thanks for any info, feel free to endow me with any other interesting knowledge about how these governments functioned.

AFAIK any Roman citizen could hold land and the amount determined his level of military service and (along with his birth) his eligibility for public office including command. This goes on until the Principate, although military service became less inevitable.

Maybe the patricians are a bit like the "Ivy League" in the USA, you don't have to be one to make President/governor etc but boy it helps. They have advantages like wealth and sort of "unofficial" privileges (although patricians had exclusive access to some priesthoods that conferred political advantage and prestige: shades of Pontifex Skull and Bonesus).

[Publio Cornelio Escipión Africano Mayor]

Read: A companion to the roman army Paul Erdkamp.
All your doubts will be clarified.

Cheers.