View Full Version : Switzerland
Yes, I know CA has given it's official response as to why Switzerland wasn't included in the game (If I recall correctly, it was something along the lines of "We felt there were more important provinces elsewhere"). However, I think there's some issues that need to be addressed. I'm hoping that we will be able to discuss these like adults, and that the mods don't go Norton on our :daisy:s, and pull a PIFTS.EXE on us (i.e. Deleting everything in sight), therefore turning a minor niggle into an out-of-control-hate-whirlwind.
There are several issues.
One, is the mysterious disappearance of Switzerland from early prototypes of E:TW. Therefore, according to the official explanation, CA must have changed it's mind somewhere along the development process. Why was that?
Proof of early screens:
http://www.kotaku.com.au/empire%20total%20war%20screenshot%2020090301.jpg
http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/924/924199/empire-total-war-20081027025639799.jpg
Two. The name "Switzerland" doesn't even pop up when you hover the cursor over the Alps where Switzerland should be. This is quite strange, especially considering that they are normally detailed enough to locate the "South China Sea" in the East Indies Theatre for example, yet leaving a hole in the middle of Europe totally blank. What's up with that?
Three. There seems to be plenty of room for various factions. If you can include factions like Westphalia, and then have it replaced by Hesse when it rebels, then you certainly have space for Switzerland.
Four. The rumour doing the rounds is that the Swiss government pressured you to do it, due to their strict interpretation of neutrality. Does this have any substance?
Thanks
P.S. Could anyone find the thread where this was originally raised? I couldn't find it.
Alexander the Pretty Good
04-01-2009, 21:43
Maybe one of the dev's exes is Swiss.
And that would be a reason not to include it...how? I'm Irish, and I'm overjoyed at the fact that Ireland is in the game.
NagatsukaShumi
04-01-2009, 22:02
I believe the Swiss neutrality was the official reason wasn't it? Rather than there being more important provinces (which is hardly an excuse to leave one out in the most important theatre, playable factions wise).
Yes, but there are plenty of other countries that are neutral which are in the game e.g. Ireland/Sweden. Also, the Swiss didn't officially become neutral until 1815.
EDIT: And I've never heard that to be the official reason. Any Swiss citizens here that can complain to the gov if this turns out to be true?
Marquis of Roland
04-01-2009, 22:34
Well I guess in the end they had space for 1 province left, and decided that Moose Factory was more important to the game :laugh4:
Lawl. You would have thought that moose, being neutral would have wanted to have been kept out of the game though. :]
Julius_Nepos
04-01-2009, 23:27
I must say what I found most curious was the fact that there isn't even a bit of flavor text when you hover over the void that used to be the Swiss Confederation. Even in the empty stretches of North America you at least get something like "Western Plains" yet it's as though no one even lives in that stretch of land in the Alps. That seems mysterious to me, and inconsistent with how other empty regions were handled. I do wonder just what was going on there, I mean EU3 has Switzerland in it without any apparent problems.
As does Imperial Glory. It makes no sense!
Den of Earth
04-02-2009, 01:45
For Napoleon, Switzerland was critical to his Italian Campaign. He could never of "Crossed the Alps"on this map. I only mention this because Switzerland could of made strategy in this region a lot more interesting and challenging.:book:
Megas Methuselah
04-02-2009, 02:52
Switzerland is already in the game, as the Swiss Confederation. Too bad they weren't included in the campaign map(s), though.
I'll provide some screenies sometime later.
Ignoramus
04-02-2009, 03:02
So the Swiss can emerge as a faction, but their homeland isn't included? Someone tell this can't be true.
Maybe CA baulked at creating a Swiss navy.
Megas Methuselah
04-02-2009, 03:04
So the Swiss can emerge as a faction, but their homeland isn't included? Someone tell this can't be true.
Maybe CA baulked at creating a Swiss navy.
No. They're included in the game as a faction. They just aren't included in the grand campaign.
Ignoramus
04-02-2009, 03:06
So you can fight custom battles with them?
Megas Methuselah
04-02-2009, 03:14
So you can fight custom battles with them?
If you're as wise as the fabled Megas Methuselah is, then perhaps you might be able to pull it off. :snobby:
pevergreen
04-02-2009, 08:43
:laugh4:
I look forward to your 'mods'.
:grin2:
Grombeard
04-02-2009, 09:24
I must say what I found most curious was the fact that there isn't even a bit of flavor text when you hover over the void that used to be the Swiss Confederation. Even in the empty stretches of North America you at least get something like "Western Plains" yet it's as though no one even lives in that stretch of land in the Alps. That seems mysterious to me, and inconsistent with how other empty regions were handled. I do wonder just what was going on there, I mean EU3 has Switzerland in it without any apparent problems.
EU3 is lying! So are all the teachers and the world maps you can buy everywhere... Switzerland just doesn't exist! They just want to make you THINK it exists! Have you been there? Do you know for sure that there aren't just a few mountains and deep forest where this so called "Switzerland" should be? Why did "they" always stay neutral, never making it big into history books? Right! They don't exist! It's like the city of Bielefeld in germany... it's a lie! They want to fool us, control us! BEWARE!!!
omg...
they're coming... help me!
~D
Dead Guy
04-02-2009, 10:36
In fact, Switzerland is just something people confuse with Sweden. It is actually the same thing.
Perhaps they didn't put it in because soon there will be a black hole there anyway and it's too hard to model properly.
Mr Frost
04-02-2009, 13:07
Noting the rather obviously dubious nature of the C/As' "official reason" {to begin with , it has beem said there is room in the game engine for 300 factions which is a touch more than are in Empire , and the Swiss government wouln't risk public backlash over something that would make them look that petty and be difficult to enforce anyhow} , I'd say either the faction for some unknown reason involving things man was not meant to know bugged the game out {and somehow cursed the region it was located in} or someone at Sega made them take it out .
Corporate execs do all kinds of petty crap and rarely does it come to light until well after the shareholders have lost money and the you-have-to-pay-me-millions-to-fire-me contract holding prat got their egos' worth .
With the engine supposed to handle 300 factions , the faction clearly existed in earlier builds , the region being not merely empty like wilderness areas but also impassable then it does seem to me that someone in an ivory tower at Sega has a grudge against the Swiss {mabey He/She/It ran afoul of some law there once} .
I think it's a sound theory .
Of course , I could be wrong and it is actually part of a cunning plot by intergalatic space aliens seeking to win a bet or mabey it was magic pixies , but my money says it sure as hell wasn't the faction limit {300 , enough to defend Thermopylae !} nor the Swiss Inquisition {which really would be unexpected} .
Meneldil
04-02-2009, 16:41
I believe the Swiss neutrality was the official reason wasn't it? Rather than there being more important provinces (which is hardly an excuse to leave one out in the most important theatre, playable factions wise).
Don't know where people got this idea, but it is stupid as hell.
Firstly, countries are not copyrighted. You don't need a country's approval to use it in a video game or movie.
Secondly, Switzerland appears in a lot of wargames, turn-based or real time strategy games, and nobody cared. It appears in MTW, in EUII and III, in Victoria, in Hearts of Iron, and the list goes on. If the Swiss government opposed the idea of having the country in a video game, then what about those?
Nonetheless, it would be pretty stupid as Switzerland musts represent what, 1% of CA sales?
Stop spreading that rumor until you have real proof of it, because honestly (and I mean no offense), making such baseless and ludicrous claims is somewhat ridiculous.
And if that's true (which I *highly* doubt), then the Swiss government would be ridiculous, and both Swiss and non Swiss people should make fun of it.
The reason provided by CA (couldn't be harsed to find the quote) is something among the lines of "We didn't want to have to many provinces, especially in Europe, and thus decided to ditch Switzerland".
I am personally of the opinion that the well off and gentlemanly developers at CA are hiding their profits in the tax heavens of the Swiss, therefore they wish to bring as little attention to the country as possible :laugh4:
Come on CA, why hasn't there been an official response to my original four questions?
No. They're included in the game as a faction. They just aren't included in the grand campaign.
http://totalwar.honga.net/empire_units.php?g=all&f=swiss_confederation
Proof.
Megas Methuselah
04-02-2009, 23:41
:inquisitive: I don't need proof. I've played as them plenty of times on MP against some poor blokes who are restricted to the 12 "playable" factions.
Unless you're backing me up?
Mr Frost
04-02-2009, 23:50
:inquisitive: I don't need proof.
You can't handle the proof !:clown:
Unless you're backing me up?
Yes.
Megas Methuselah
04-03-2009, 01:27
I don't need your help, peasant. :clown:
I suppose the reason was that the production of 13 different set of uniforms for the Old Swiss Confederation would have bound too many ressources. :joke:
If you want to mod, see:*
Petitmermet, Roland - Rousselot, Lucien, Schweizer Uniformen 1700 - 1850. Die Uniformen der Truppen der eidgenössischen Orte und zugewandten von 1700 bis 1798 und der kantonalen Milizen von 1803 bis 1850, Bern 1976.
*Not easy to get outside of Switzerland.
From the web
Dragoons 1712 (Berne or Zurich):
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Belagerung_von_Wil_1712.jpg&filetimestamp=20090326075146
Territorial Infantry 1798 (Berne):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/GrauholzWalthard.jpg
- The unforms should be a dark green, the bicornes and tricornes dark grey close to black, afaik (back side on the right).
- The NC with the tricorne hat and the oldfashioned foot-gear in the middle of the picture is probably landstorm (the levy of the older men).
- The landfolk on the left are irregular levy.
Remarks:
1. Bicorne hats come up around 1770. I don't know when the Bicorne replaced the Tricorne in the Bernese Territorial Infantry regiments but I suppose between 1780 and 1790. Earlier the Tricorne was common. Another type of headgear is not known to me during the period.
2. Unform colors: I think dark green is late (after 1770), earlier is blue, sometimes red (Geneva). I have seen a painting with Lucerne militia men from mid 18th century. They had blue jackets and blue pantalons (afaik).
3. Uniforms and standartized equipment were introduced in the Old Swiss Confederation around 1712.
4. There was a major reform of the organization of the military in Berne following the prussian model of levy-classes 1770 or 1773 (I am not sure about the exacte date).
Three theories are considered in the scientific society:
1. Matrix theory
The Confederation in the 18th c. was in reality occupied by aliens who blocked all borders. Therefore no real information exists over the country and her poor inhabitants. The reason for the black hole on the campaign map. What you see in the books and internet is only fake spread by the aliens.
2. World domination theory
ETW needs balanced factions. The army of the united kantons of the Confederation, if depicted correctly, would have been so strong that no player would have had a chance against it. Huge problems for MP also.
3. Hollow way theory
A nearly deadly struggle among the CA devs about the Swiss special unit. The game director desired special commando crossbow and rope armed mountain troops (Tell Devils) but to avoid mutiny of the crew the whole Confederation was abandoned instead. The ropes and hooks idea however remained; they were given to all infantry for sieges.
When I have some money left, I'll buy the mentioned book and can give more informations to modders.
Three theories are considered in the scientific society:
1. Matrix theory
The Confederation in the 18th c. was in reality occupied by aliens who blocked all borders. Therefore no real information exists over the country and her poor inhabitants. The reason for the black hole on the campaign map. What you see in the books and internet is only fake spread by the aliens.
Obviously, mind control is achieved through the cuckoo clocks :O
Seriously though, why? Come on CA, I doubt you've not seen this thread now.
If I have some money left, I'll buy the mentioned book and can give more informations to modders.
Awesome. How much is it?
Awesome. How much is it?
80 Swiss Franks (~ 72 $ before taxes etc.), if you order from the Army's Museum Shop. I'll try to fetch one in Mai or June.
It contains (I guess) a lot of colored prints. That makes it expensive and it is hardcover, afaik.
Nice. It would be cool if we could play as Switzerland, right CA?
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
04-03-2009, 23:08
I'm mad at CA for not having the Swiss in here. I still like a answer why they didn't stick them in here :clown:.
SwissBarbar
04-03-2009, 23:51
Yes, but there are plenty of other countries that are neutral which are in the game e.g. Ireland/Sweden. Also, the Swiss didn't officially become neutral until 1815.
EDIT: And I've never heard that to be the official reason. Any Swiss citizens here that can complain to the gov if this turns out to be true?
:laugh4::laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: really never heard of something more funny than that. I'll write a letter
Why did "they" always stay neutral, never making it big into history books?
PHA! Of course you mean besides slaughtering Habsburgs, defeating the number 1 military juggernaut in Europe, the Burgundians, getting independent from the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation, defeating the Swabians, invading Italy, mass slaughtering French, having a reputation of being unbeatable for 200 years, convincing the pope not to let himself being protected by anyone else than Swiss mercenaries, making kings of that age consider it impossible to win a battle without Swiss mercenaries, and when finally being closely defeated by a force superior in numbers and canons, still performing the first ordered retreat since antiquity... :smash:
PHA! Of course you mean besides slaughtering Habsburgs, defeating the number 1 military juggernaut in Europe, the Burgundians, getting independent from the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation, defeating the Swabians, invading Italy, mass slaughtering French, having a reputation of being unbeatable for 200 years, convincing the pope not to let himself being protected by anyone else than Swiss mercenaries, making kings of that age consider it impossible to win a battle without Swiss mercenaries, and when finally being closely defeated by a force superior in numbers and canons, still performing the first ordered retreat since antiquity... :smash:
The delicate position of the Old Swiss Confederation in the 18th century consisted in being financially dependant from the House of Bourbon on one side and on the other side not to be able to come to help their treaty partners in the Franche Compté, Alsac and Strassbourg when they were occupied by the French. The period of the Ancien Regime (18th century) was rich of cultural prosperity (enlightment) but politically they did not develop the necessary institution to real-time with the rising powers in their neighborhood and when they did it was too late because the institutions that had worked well through the Renaissance and during the Barock suddenly failed in 1798.
I would not reproach CA with not having the Swiss in a wargame focusing on the period of the Ancien Régime because it was beside the war of 1712 a peaceful and good period for them. - It's a chance for modders, to improve the range of topics of the game. I look forward and will support their efforts within the limits I have set to myself.
SwissBarbar
04-04-2009, 00:14
The delicate position of the Old Swiss Confederation in the 18th century consisted in being financially dependant from the House of Bourbon on one side and on the other side not to be able to come to help their treaty partners in the France Compte, Alsac and Strassbourg when they were occupied by the French. The period of the Ancien Regime (18th century) was rich of cultural prosperity (enlightment) but politically they did not develop the necessary institution to real-time with the rising powers in their neighborhood and when they did it was too late because the institutions that had worked well through the Renaissance and during the Barock suddenly failed in 1798.
I would not reproach CA with not having the Swiss in a wargame focusing on the period of the Ancien Régime because it was beside the war of 1712 a peaceful and good period for them. - It's a chance for modders, though.
Which doesn't mean that they never made it into the history books :book:
Which doesn't mean that they never made it into the history books :book:
Sure. 1798 brought also liberty to those who had no equal rights before and created within the following half of a century the Modern Swiss Confederation (1848). Besides, swiss regiments fought for the French in the Seven Years War, they fought for the Dutch and the British Crown in India and they were among the last to run away from the fields of the Beresina in Winter 1812. Still, Rousseau, Voltaire and Pestalozzi are far more important (only to mention a few).
AussieGiant
04-04-2009, 01:48
Well, it does seem slightly surprising because at the time they were still very well regarded as mercenaries.
Ah well, the conspiracies have been been funny to read.
It all seems like a storm in a tea cup.
It all seems like a storm in a tea cup.
Yeah, but a very irritaiting teacup at that :laugh4:
I would not reproach CA with not having the Swiss in a wargame focusing on the period of the Ancien Régime because it was beside the war of 1712 a peaceful and good period for them.
So, because they didn't fight much, they shouldn't be included in the game :inquisitive:
antisocialmunky
04-05-2009, 01:32
I dunno, atleast the Swiss fans can't complain about CA horribly butchering the Swiss. :-p
So, because they didn't fight much, they shouldn't be included in the game :inquisitive:
There are a limited amount of slots for factions and they also wanted to release the game in time. Then the designers had to decide which were the relevant factions for the GC.
Indeed, some of the neighbors of the Old Swiss Confederation were certainly more in the history of events during the 18th century. Take the Duchy of Wurttemberg which was the main battleground between France and the Emperor, or Bavaria which was an ally of France during the Spanish Successor War and focus of the Bavarian Successor War, or take Piemont, Savoy smaller but still active participants in the political and military history of the period being important for the French and Austrians because they controlled the entrence to Italy.
CA has made a design-decision good for their GC scenario that's all. A civilwar like the one of 1712 in Switzerland is on a level of detail not in the focus of the game and the French invasion of 1798 is already close to the end of the GC as well as the battles of the Second War of Coalition (1789–1802) that were fought on the territory of the Helvetic Republic.
Megas Methuselah
04-05-2009, 11:25
It sounds more probable that CA was pressured into exempting the Swiss from the game.
SwissBarbar
04-05-2009, 13:45
It sounds more probable that CA was pressured into exempting the Swiss from the game.
by who? :inquisitive:
There are a limited amount of slots for factions and they also wanted to release the game in time. Then the designers had to decide which were the relevant factions for the GC.
Indeed, some of the neighbors of the Old Swiss Confederation were certainly more in the history of events during the 18th century. Take the Duchy of Wurttemberg which was the main battleground between France and the Emperor, or Bavaria which was an ally of France during the Spanish Successor War and focus of the Bavarian Successor War, or take Piemont, Savoy smaller but still active participants in the political and military history of the period being important for the French and Austrians because they controlled the entrence to Italy.
CA has made a design-decision good for their GC scenario that's all. A civilwar like the one of 1712 in Switzerland is on a level of detail not in the focus of the game and the French invasion of 1798 is already close to the end of the GC as well as the battles of the Second War of Coalition (1789–1802) that were fought on the territory of the Helvetic Republic.
There's 300 faction slots, and you can actually play them inb custom battles (They have a flag and everything)
by who? :inquisitive:
That's what we're trying to find out, but CA isn't co-operating...
KaLiMeRo168
04-05-2009, 22:43
Switzerland is not in the game coz the Large Hadron Collider(LHC) is there, yes i know the biggest part is in France but only the Swiss part gone boom in my future!!!! & CA foresight that Switzerland will become a black hole! So there was no point to put a province/nation/whatever in the game that will go boom in my future^^.
Kalimero has spoken. :clown:
Excellent, truly excellent observation. Balloon for you.
:balloon2:
For those who are interested in modding a swiss faction, I have put some datas and simple analysis together about the forces of the Old République de Berne in 1721 and after 1770 til 1798. It's the last post in my thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2216159#post2216159
Thank you for your attention
Megas Methuselah
04-20-2009, 23:31
For those who are interested in modding a swiss faction, I have but some datas and simple analysis together about the forces of the Old République de Berne in 1721 and after 1770 til 1798. It's the last post in my thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2216159#post2216159
Thank you for your attention
There already is a Swiss faction. All you have to do is give them a territory.
Discoman
04-20-2009, 23:53
Maybe the unlocking of Switzerland will be a stand alone expansion pack or downloadable content.
I can see it now, "ETW: Swiss Invasion". Feeling gipped that Switzerland has been cutting corners and delivering cheese that's full of holes, the nations of Europe have now set their sights on the mountainous and luxurious regions- I mean region of Switzerland.
Game features include :
-Battles will come alive with sounds of cannons, bagpipes (or not), trumpets, drums (when they choose to work), and cuckoo clocks.
-Realistic diplomacy that doesn't allow Switzerland to declare war and can only sit around while all the other factions have fun.
-All new graphics. Now added are the alps, mountains.... uh did I already mention the alps? Who the hell knows, maybe we'll add some cows for scenery.
All for the price of 40 dollars! :clown:
Pre-order today and you'll get Swiss pikemen, only useful in the first 10 turns of the game. :laugh4:
There already is a Swiss faction. All you have to do is give them a territory.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...59#post2216159
The purpose of my thread here in the Org is to support those who are interested in questions of the composition of regiments and those who look to alter db files to get more realistic number sizes for infantry batallions. I plan to provide in the future also datas to uniforms for those factions where you can't easily find information on the web, e.g. Swiss, Italien and smaller German factions. I myself do not plan to make a mod by my own because that takes too much time.
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