I Didnt know the American Indians fought in rank and file formation!

[ZIM!!]

Hmph isnt that interesting...

I didn’t realize that Native Americans fought in such a disciplined manner they march just like a modern European army and their calvary stay in such tight formation( and they hadnt even invented the stirrup yet?? …wow

Im sorry but does anyone else find that a bit silly just the thought of Jeronimo and all his braves with the war paint, loin cloths and fancy head gear lining up European style with guns it’s too ridiculous I realize that probably for balancing purposes they need to do that but if you need to go that far out to include them in the game why even bother… couldn’t they at least group them randomly like peasants in RTW they’re already unrealistically overpowered. The only time Native Americans could beat European armies was when they hopelessly outnumbered them or ambushed them. Give them recruitment bounuses ore something so they always have huge armies, But the fact is Native Americans were not much above the stone age in the 18th century. They were never a real threat to anybody.

In My next Campaign I will stay out of America

[Subotan]

couldn’t they at least group them randomly like peasants in RTW they’re already unrealistically overpowered. .

They are at the start of the game.

Then you get rank fire. ~D


The only time Native Americans could beat European armies was when they hopelessly outnumbered them or ambushed them.

...That's what they did. And it worked, some of the time. Unfortunately, I don't think the Engine can represent that very well.


BThey were never a real threat to anybody.

LOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Then why did it take 350 years to subdue them? :O

Have you ever thought that the game itself might be unrealistic? Having a magical camera in the sky that can fly around, soldiers who are basically robots who obey (nearly) every command?

[A Very Super Market]

The natives weren't useless, like you describe them. Ambushes are an integral part of their strategy, and very easy to do in Forest covered North America. Besides which, guns are almost liabilities in a forest, since they are far too inaccurate to reliably hit people, and the smoke would make it even harder to see melee infantry.

Course, in-game, the natives fight in line, in broad fields. Absolutely silly that we can't defeat them in that case.

Though they do have less men than you. Most of the time.

[antisocialmunky]

They really should be a combination of light infantry units and melee fighters first and formost depending on geography.

[Sheogorath]

LOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Then why did it take 350 years to subdue them? :O

Have you ever thought that the game itself might be unrealistic? Having a magical camera in the sky that can fly around, soldiers who are basically robots who obey (nearly) every command?

350 years AFTER %90 of the population of the native population was wiped out by disease, mark you.

Just imagine if the Europeans hadn't had smallpox on their side.

[Megas Methuselah]

350 years AFTER %90 of the population of the native population was wiped out by disease, mark you.

Just imagine if the Europeans hadn't had smallpox on their side.

They don't have smallpox on their side anymore. We are now the fastest growing ethnicity in all of Canada, so HA, TAKE THAT YOU TYRANICAL CANADIAN GOVERNMENT!!!

:snobby:

[Sheogorath]

They don't have smallpox on their side anymore. We are now the fastest growing ethnicity in all of Canada, so HA, TAKE THAT YOU TYRANICAL CANADIAN GOVERNMENT!!!

:snobby:

But now they have the mooses on their side. BETTER WATCH OUT.

[Kraxis]

Well the indians were pretty adaptable. The first encounters in NA lead to the Indians getting shredded as they came out in, well not exactly formation, but they came out into the open to settle their stuff like usual. Even they preferred to do stuff mano a mano when disputed had to be settled.

They learned their lessons well and stayed well away from such tactics. The Europeans however took extremely long to learn to use light infantry tactics when the indians no longer wanted to meet them head on. There is a reason the 13 colonies didn't stretch very far inland... The powerful indian conferderacies that gave out black eyes left and right if groups of settlers decided to go too far.

And while the image of the indian warrior is one of the noble savage as the description goes, they were actually very quick to learn to use the musket and rifle, and apply it to light infantry tactics. While being peppered with arrows from unseen enemies was scary, the sound of 20-30 muskets all around would be even more scary to a lonely detachment. It would be even more obvious that they were alone and surrounded.

I do think that the indian factions have a little too many muskets, but at the same time they have no good musket infantry. Give them high accuracy and high reload, but no better range than now to simulate their poorer weapons in general. And all are light infantry with skimishing and light inf tactics. That would make them scary.
Then tone down the lancers.

[Forward Observer]

Another omission it that the developers didn't bother to make any of the various tribes look different. They all look like Mohawks from the eastern woodlands--even the plains and the Southwestern tribes.

It would have been kind of neat if when one finally gets to the plains Indian region capital they would be surprised with lots of braided hair warbonnet wearing horsemen like the Sioux, Cree, Crow, Arapaho, or Cheyenne.

[CavalryCmdr]

I'm not even going to bother pointing out all the errors in the OP, what I will say is ZIM!! should get more history from, well, history and less history from Hollywood.

I will agree that most native american units should not be set up in nice neat rows like European armies.

[Megas Methuselah]

Another omission it that the developers didn't bother to make any of the various tribes look different. They all look like Mohawks from the eastern woodlands--even the plains and the Southwestern tribes.

It would have been kind of neat if when one finally gets to the plains Indian region capital they would be surprised with lots of braided hair warbonnet wearing horsemen like the Sioux, Cree, Crow, Arapaho, or Cheyenne.

You know, I honestly expected those mentioned tribes and much more to be included in the game as seperate factions, along with their respective and unique culture and fighting styles. In that way, European colonial warefare wouldn't alone dominate the continent, but tribal warefares would play a significant role as well.

Instead, CA gave us an empty continent with a couple inaccurate native factions and some random "Inuit," as they call them, village.

[Sheogorath]

You know, I honestly expected those mentioned tribes and much more to be included in the game as seperate factions, along with their respective and unique culture and fighting styles. In that way, European colonial warefare wouldn't alone dominate the continent, but tribal warefares would play a significant role as well.

Instead, CA gave us an empty continent with a couple inaccurate native factions and some random "Inuit," as they call them, village.

*Coughgeorgianlineinfantrycough*

As I've said so many times before...the European factions are all identical. You expect CA to put more effort into the natives?

[NimitsTexan]

The Indians pretty quickly abandoned bows and arrows for muskets and then rifles . . . the rifle, especially, they considered much more effective than the bow . . . which is sort of funny, considering how CA made the Indian bowmen more effective in ranged combat than most European infantry.

[Megas Methuselah]

CA had, what, 3 years? I thought the European factions would have been long perfected. But at least the Georgians were included at all. North America is an empty continent. Asia and Africa aren't even in the game!

[rajpoot]

This is what happens when one has a lot time on ones hands.
They ought to have simply released it an year back, and by now fixed all the awful bugs and CTD. :wall:

[Megas Methuselah]

They probably spent a year just making the water look "perfect." Ugh.

[BeeSting]

Historical simulation or not, there are a lot of things I didn't know till I played ETW.... even Hollywood could not have strayed so far from the truth.

[KozaK13]

At least they dont have eurpean armies and wigged rulers like dagestan.....


Some one needs to put more amerindians in the game....and make the inuit less strong....

[antisocialmunky]

They probably spent a year just making the water look "perfect." Ugh.

It is very sexy water, would have liked to seen sharks though.

[Mr Frost]

...
I do think that the indian factions have a little too many muskets, but at the same time they have no good musket infantry. Give them high accuracy and high reload, but no better range than now to simulate their poorer weapons in general. And all are light infantry with skimishing and light inf tactics...

Not merely that , but many would have been the best warriors of the tribe having proved formidable enough to have taken such a weapon in battle {even those whom traded or otherwise earned it , probably earned the currency through service as mercenaries and the remaining ones likely simply stole them , which still takes skill and daring} thus their melee capabilities should be quite good .

Mind you , the same could be said for Ranges etc {their defense is woefully and wrongfully poor} .

[Megas Methuselah]

even those whom traded or otherwise earned it , probably earned the currency through service as mercenaries and the remaining ones likely simply stole them , which still takes skill and daring

Many European traders traded muskets in exchange for beaver pelts. That's largely how the Chippewa rise to prominence, through early-bird trading with Europeans and using their new weapons to achieve dominence over enemy tribes.

[Callahan9119]

Just imagine if the Europeans hadn't had smallpox on their side.

Don't forget liquor!
Its how they kept us Irish under control, too drunk to fight!

[Mr Frost]

... through early-bird trading with Europeans ...

I suppose you can point to an explosion in the local worm population to support that thesis then ?:holmes:








~:)

[Sheogorath]

Don't forget liquor!
Its how they kept us Irish under control, too drunk to fight!

This plan cannot fail :gring:

[antisocialmunky]

I thought the Irish got a powerlevel of over 9000 when they got drunk.

[Callahan9119]

Only for the fists, there is a 50% penalty to your gravity.

[Megas Methuselah]

And to your gravitas.

*sniggers*

[Oleander Ardens]

They learned their lessons well and stayed well away from such tactics. The Europeans however took extremely long to learn to use light infantry tactics when the indians no longer wanted to meet them head on. There is a reason the 13 colonies didn't stretch very far inland... The powerful indian conferderacies that gave out black eyes left and right if groups of settlers decided to go too far.

I wouldn't say: extremely long to learn to use light infantry tactics. A good book on the subject is here. Certainly the Europeans beat the Natives surprisingly quite often on their own game in warfare, just take the "savage" raids against indian villages with mostly woman and children.



I do think that the indian factions have a little too many muskets, but at the same time they have no good musket infantry. Give them high accuracy and high reload, but no better range than now to simulate their poorer weapons in general. And all are light infantry with skimishing and light inf tactics. That would make them scary.

I'm not sure about the fast reloading part, but accurate musket/rifle fire, skirmishing and light infantry tactics should be a must for them. Rapid movement on and off the battlefield and a certain chance to detect ambushes would also make sense.

[Kraxis]

The point about long to learn was that it took the Europeans hundreds of years moving out of ither little 'strip' of land. When I say it took them long it was about the actual combat, not warfare. There they always had the upper hand due to numbers and basically being more ruthless and not to good to actually go back on agreements in a big way. They were used to big scale warfare from hundreds of years of practice in Europe. But actual fighting group vs group here and there, it took time. Yes certain units were created like the Rangers, but they were rather few. Now one could technically argue that there wasn't a need for more since numbers carried such a weight that the light infantry tactics couldn't stop them, only annoy and cause casualties. But eventually they would get there most of the time. And they did as far as I have understood.

[al Roumi]

Is anyone aware of North American indians ever using field artillery?

For me, it stands out as one of the greatest of CA's fantasies in ETW.

(maybe mostly becasue they are owning my Ottoman 24lb foot artillery)

[Megas Methuselah]

Yeah, that was a strange move on CA's part. Not as bad as Roman Ninjas, but still strange nonetheless. At least they're only fixed with a mere range of 400.

[al Roumi]

Despite being on the same elevation, they were still out-ranging me somehow.

[IvarrWolfsong]

This is not a very popular opinion lately, but..

I think people are fooling themselves if they think the only reason that Europeans defeated Native Americans was because of disease.

I will agree that it had a huge effect and is responsible for some of the Europeans rapid destruction of these peoples. However, even if the Native Americans were innoculated by medical space aliens from the future (mspaftf for short =P), they were still over a thousand years behind in war materials and techniques.

[Subotan]

Horses.

There was a battle when 50 Spanish Conquistadors beat an Inca army of over 10,000, due solely to the fact that the Spanish were on horses.

[NimitsTexan]

The American Indians were technologically backward. While Indians, generally disinclined towards open battle anyway, quickly abandoned head on confrontations with European armies after a general pattern of early defeats, their equally quick adoption of the mustket and, as soon as possible, the rifle, over the bow and melee weapons demonstrates that they intuitively recognized their inability to compete against modern firearms with ancient-era weapons. It was noted by some commentators of the colonial period that certain Indian tribes had come to regard bows more as toys for children than as serious weapons.

Adoption of European weapons, of course, did not meant adoption of European tactics. The Indians remained more akin to European light infantry/light cavalry/guerillas throughout their wars with Europeans and Americans, and generally avoided pitched battle unless ensured of overwhelming tactical or numerical superiority. What successes the Indians enjoyed against Euro/American armies were due to a combination of Indian adaptation of European technology to wilderness warfare and, in most cases, siginificant tactical blundering the part of western forces. A Euro/American force not overwhelmingly outnumbered and able to deploy was almost never in any signifcant danger from any American Indian army.

The Indians in this game should be mostly represented by small, mostly rifled-armed, skirmisher and light infantry. Massed bows and lancer cavalry, were rare or unheard of, particularly for the northern tribes.