Star Wars: The Old Republic [Archive]

Boohugh

04-04-2009, 09:50

Seeing as there isn't an official thread started about this yet I thought I'd do the honours!

Bioware is developing Star Wars: The Old Republic, an MMORPG set a couple of hundred years after KOTOR2. It seems they are actually fairly far along too, although I'm not sure there will be a release anytime this year.

The official website is http://www.swtor.com/ and actually has some info about the game now, definitely worth taking a look at (the latest updates introduce the first class: the Bounty Hunter). It seems the story-driven aspect is central to the game development which is good news :2thumbsup:. Bioware acknowledge that a well-developed story is often what is missing from current MMO's, so they are putting alot of effort into that part (they see the story as 1 of 4 pillars that should make up an MMORPG, you can read all about it on the site). In terms of the amount of content they are creating, they describe it as KOTOR3-10 put together! :dizzy2:

I know there are quite a few KOTOR fans out there, how do you all feel about it being an MMO, etc? Can't wait myself and Bioware definitely seem to be taking it seriously rather than just a title guaranteed to make money due to the brand.

keravnos

04-04-2009, 15:23

I LOVED KOTOR. One of the best RPG's I have played and I am really mad at myself for not finishing it. RL has a way of getting in the way, what can I say? Anyways, thing is that even if I loved KOTOR, a MMORG is a NO NO if only for the time investment needed. I would absolutely love to play it, but I am not 17 years old.

Anyways thanks for the link. It is deffinitely worth looking into this.

Monk

04-04-2009, 19:10

First let me get this out of the way:

I loved Kotor 1. I loved it. If i could I would package my love and send it to bioware with a pretty pink ribbon with a card that declares "To my heroes". The only thing that kept such fanboyish attitudes in check when kotor 2 came around was just how unfinished the final product was. It hated my ATI card and loved to crash, not to mention the ending was severely rushed and there was more plot holes present than in Phantom Menace. Which is impressive when you think about it. Most impressive.

Now that we've got my own personal feelings for the previous two games out of the way, let's talk about the MMO. It looks interesting but what makes me a bit hesitant is, as previously stated, it's an MMO. While I have nothing against the genre itself the very nature of it lends itself to needing vast swaths of time to be a sound investment. It's a very, very needy thing.

A KOTOR MMO could work, and that is why Bioware is making one. Yet the sad thing is it's just another MMO. How many of those are currently on the market? 08 was a crazy year for the MMO and it seemed like every single month a new game was being released. It's good to see that sort of MMO-arms race has stopped, but one wonders how successful this will be with such a saturated market. I know personally I will not be going anywhere near it for two reasons, one was stated above: the nature of the beast.

The second is simply that Bioware has zero experience with MMOs. None. And anyone who has played them will tell you, no matter how much polish they receive they are almost always buggy at release (Warhammer Online is a great example). One might ask why, well the very genre lends itself to that with how massive it is, it's right in the name afterall!

Sure with time the good ones are cleaned up and are very fun, but is Bioware prepared to commit the huge amount of resources they will need to survive the first year? Like an episode of X-files. I want to believe they can get it done, but I just can't make that leap of faith.

Bioware acknowledge that a well-developed story is often what is missing from current MMO's,

That is not at all fair on Bioware's behalf. Many of the "top dogs" of the MMO scene have amazing depth to their story. Everquest 2 is still going, not as strong as it used to but it still commands a respectable clientbase, and their story you need to buy a huge book just to get all the history of it. Warhammer Online.. well, it's based on the Warhammer franchise from Games Workshop. You can't tell me with a straight face that hasn't got a good story. Then the massive beast that is World of Warcraft, and again.. it's warcraft.

There's a lot of throw-away MMOs on the market true, but to think they are unique in having a central story driven forward by quests is just laughable. Bioware really should take a look around, if they are going into this thing with blinders on they don't have a chance.

Major Robert Dump

04-04-2009, 21:42

frogbeastegg

04-04-2009, 22:15

KOTOR is one of my favourite games and my second most replayed games from the last decade.

KOTOR II would have been awesome if it had been finished. Pity it wasn't.

Bioware have made some of my favourite games ever, full stop and on any platform. Their last effort, Mass Effect, is my most replayed game from the last decade and I love it as much as that implies.

I'm an RPG nut. PC, console, western style, Japanese style, sandbox, dungeon crawler, grand epic, linear, sky high budget, puny budget, earth-shatteringly famous or painfully obscure - I adore them and play stacks of them. There is only one type I do not play: MMORPG.

The KOTOR MMORPG interests me as much as a proposition to have my fingers slowly lasered off without anaesthetic. MMORPGs are the anti-thesis of everything I like in an RPG save one thing: levelling a character up. That I can do in a few thousand other games, without monthly fees and the nuisance of needing to be online and surrounded by people who behave abusively or pretend to be Gandalf.

Not interested, never will be. If there's no singleplayer KOTOR then the series is dead to me.

Major Robert Dump

04-04-2009, 22:28

Looks like companions, aka pets, will be a pretty big part of the game, which seems to play on part-building. May be cool if you can shape and equip these companions as opposed to the cookie cutter ones you got in Diablo 2, for example.

Just watched the video. They said there are class-specific stories, which tells me you will be locked into a class tree from the beginning. This makes me also presume it will be level based. This makes me lose interest. While it may not be good for mass subscriptions, I find the far better MMO model is to allot a set amount of points, enable various class trees with ascending and descending point costs, and let players distribute those points however they wish as long as they meet the profession experience and prerequisites for the trees. It's called dabbling, and it makes for a much more immersive and entertaining game, more so than making all XP generic and locking someone into a set path.

I hate level-based MMOs. Hate them. Furthermore, I hate the idea that people can look at you and tell what class you are, or be able to tell what class you are by the shiny ring that flashed every time you use a particular move.

I also haven't been able to tell if there is space combat. For the games sake, I hope so, because Star Wars without space fights is pretty fruity.

Boohugh

04-04-2009, 23:51

First I'd just like to point out, as a couple of you have brought it up, that KOTOR2 wasn't actually made by Bioware, it was made by Obsidian Entertainment (using Bioware's engine and some technical support from them), which is why it didn't have the normal quality you expect from Bioware games.

Secondly, addressing Monk's point

That is not at all fair on Bioware's behalf. Many of the "top dogs" of the MMO scene have amazing depth to their story. Everquest 2 is still going, not as strong as it used to but it still commands a respectable clientbase, and their story you need to buy a huge book just to get all the history of it. Warhammer Online.. well, it's based on the Warhammer franchise from Games Workshop. You can't tell me with a straight face that hasn't got a good story. Then the massive beast that is World of Warcraft, and again.. it's warcraft.

That is the exact problem. There is this great history and lore in these games but when you actually play through it, the story is just something that ticks along in the background, you don't feel you have any impact on it. I played WoW for a long time and one of my biggest gripes was how the world didn't seem to change due to your actions, it just all got rather stale doing the same quests and not really seeming to achieve anything, this is something I hope will be different with SW:TOR. From what I've read, I think Bioware's point in focusing on the story-driven aspect is that you actually get involved and have some sort of impact on your own characters story, which should significantly add to the immersion (I hope at least, we'll see how it turns out :laugh4:).

It is very true that this is the first MMO Bioware are creating so that is also a point of worry but they do have a reputation for quality, so hopefully they'll make sure it is as bug-free as possible and they'll bring their normal quality to the table. There are always going to be some that sneak through but it seems unavoidable in games development these days, as long as they aren't totally game-breaking *cough* ETW CTD's *cough* then it shouldn't be too much of a problem. The one thing about an MMO is it probably gets better post-release support than almost every other type of game (there are always exceptions, of course, but it's true in general) just because the business model relies on keeping players.

My one area of concern, that I share with Frogbeastegg, about it being an MMO is the fact there will be lots of other people you have to share the world with. The fact there are other people alone isn't the problem, it's that there are always some who just ruin the immersion. To an extent that can be alleviated by playing on an RP server but it would need proper policing of rules for it to work. In a game where being immersed in the story is going to be one of the main selling points, this is perhaps the biggest pitfall Bioware will face and probably the one they can control the least unfortunately.

frogbeastegg

04-05-2009, 00:18

Meneldil

04-05-2009, 01:06

MMOs are businesses. No matter how well they are initially done, they are doomed to degrade to the WOW model and cater to the lowest common denominator for the sake of subscriptions, which ultimately screws the people who played from the beginning. I have a hard time justifying any sort of time investment -- even with AFKing and macros and offline economies -- when all of your in-game assets can we wiped clean or made irrelevant in a single unannounced game revision.

Wait, what? Have you actually played WoW or are you just making that up?

I once again have to stand to defend MMO's, and WoW (even though I've stopped playing MMO's and WoW a while ago), because most opinions here seem to be completely baseless. MMO's are not more time consuming than other games (though they are more likely to create addiction).

You can play WoW 30min to 1h a day and still be a competitive PvP player. You can raid once or twice a week and still enjoy PvE content. You just have to find players who share the same view of the game.
According to the Left4Dead topic (which I enjoy reading because your AARs are fun), I know a lot of WoW players who spend less time on WoW than you do on L4D.
And I don't think WoW cater to the lowest common denominator. I'd say it's probably the most complex game ever created. It does not focus on PvP or PvE exclusively, it allows casual gamers to enjoy the game and get good gear, while the hardcore players get craploads of vanity/uber items.

And no game revision made anything irrelevant. All the "OMG I'LL STOP MY SUBSCRIPTION IF THAT PATCH IS MADE LIVE" is a bunch of crying by stupid spoiled kids, who will continue to play the game anyway (unfortunately).

As for a Star Wars MMORPG, I can see it failing right away. The licence is too big to be turned into a successful MMO, and all the "Our game will be much better than everything else (ie. WoW)" speech left a bad taste in my mouth after WAR online.

Crandaeolon

04-05-2009, 10:06

MMO's are not more time consuming than other games

The quandary of subscription-based MMO's is this: in order to gain maximum profits, the game company needs to keep people playing. The cheapest and easiest way to do this is to increase repetition of old content. This is a conflict of interest (assuming that most people don't want to grind) and while I'll admit that it doesn't directly translate to MMO's being more time consuming, it's certainly a strong indicator.

You can play WoW 30min to 1h a day and still be a competitive PvP player.

Really? Suppose I'll start playing WoW now, less than one hour a day, completely from scratch; how long would it take me to reach all PvP content and have the best gear, assuming that I could play the game perfectly right off the bat?

AggonyDuck

04-05-2009, 15:04

What I simply do not understand is how Bioware will combine the MMO concept with a immersive story-based gameplay. If you are going to have proper well developed companions, they will be fairly limited in numbers. It would definately suck if other players had the exactly same companions as you have.

I also can't see how you can implement things like consequences for actions and story progression in an MMO. A good example is that if one player character kills a Sith Lord, that Sith Lord should stay dead as well and not be respawned for another player to kill him.

Oh and that brings out the case of respawning player characters? That doesn't really go too well in hand with actions having consequences.

Major Robert Dump

04-05-2009, 15:40

Wait, what? Have you actually played WoW or are you just making that up?

I once again have to stand to defend MMO's, and WoW (even though I've stopped playing MMO's and WoW a while ago), because most opinions here seem to be completely baseless. MMO's are not more time consuming than other games (though they are more likely to create addiction).

You can play WoW 30min to 1h a day and still be a competitive PvP player. You can raid once or twice a week and still enjoy PvE content. You just have to find players who share the same view of the game.
According to the Left4Dead topic (which I enjoy reading because your AARs are fun), I know a lot of WoW players who spend less time on WoW than you do on L4D.
And I don't think WoW cater to the lowest common denominator. I'd say it's probably the most complex game ever created. It does not focus on PvP or PvE exclusively, it allows casual gamers to enjoy the game and get good gear, while the hardcore players get craploads of vanity/uber items.

And no game revision made anything irrelevant. All the "OMG I'LL STOP MY SUBSCRIPTION IF THAT PATCH IS MADE LIVE" is a bunch of crying by stupid spoiled kids, who will continue to play the game anyway (unfortunately).

As for a Star Wars MMORPG, I can see it failing right away. The licence is too big to be turned into a successful MMO, and all the "Our game will be much better than everything else (ie. WoW)" speech left a bad taste in my mouth after WAR online.

I played WOW for a couple of months. And I thought it sucked. Complex you say? You are kidding, right? All the templates are cookie cutter, with some subclass specialties thrown in along the way to make people think they are being original. The economy is a joke, crafting is a joke, and the level based system is a joke. Raids were much ado about nothing, guilds based around raiding was pathetic, and while I must admit the PVP could be fun it just boiled down to the same old pvp crap in every other game where your opponents know what cookie cutter template you are as soon as you use your cookie cutter special with fancy cookie cutter graphics, and the only way to make your cookie cutter template better was with elite cookie cutter equipment which required cookie cutter spawn grinding or cookie cutter raiding over and over and over again.

I've also played COH/COV/ DDO, Eve, and SWG pre and post NGE. DDO may be the worst game I've ever played. I wouldnt even rank WOW with Eve or COH, let alone the released version of SWG, that is, until they nerfed SWG to make it a WOW clone.

MMOs need real crafting, with real, harvestable resources, with real crafting professions, not heraldric cube crafting like every other game seems to use. MMOs need medics and doctors that heal and craft and fight, not medics and doctors that are useless on their own and only offer heals that are reflective, or reactive, I mean how about a point click and heal system, why does it always seem to be some crap like life leech, or reflective heals, or heals that have % chance to heal when hit....i hate all the gay diablo 2 stats that mmos are filled with.

And PVP. Pfft. I want open PVP, not some crap where you have to a special place at a special time and get absolutely nothing for pvping in the pvp zone. I don't expect to be able to go into any town and just murder noobs anytime i want, but a system of temporary enemy flags and declaration of pvp status while in the general public so others can declare too and fight with or against your faction....thats hella lot more fun then PVP "zones." I'm still undecided on penalties for dying, but any way you look at it what worries me most about the bounty hunter profession in this game is that it will be gayed down to prevent peoples feelings from being hurt. If anyone here thinks that players are just going to be able to wontonly place bounties on other players as long as they have the capital well then you are wrong, because people whine when they get PvPd. In fact I would be willing to bet that more than half the bounty hunter content outside the mani story will be tracking NPCs not players.

Meneldil

04-05-2009, 16:20

The quandary of subscription-based MMO's is this: in order to gain maximum profits, the game company needs to keep people playing. The cheapest and easiest way to do this is to increase repetition of old content. This is a conflict of interest (assuming that most people don't want to grind) and while I'll admit that it doesn't directly translate to MMO's being more time consuming, it's certainly a strong indicator.
Agreed. If you're have a weak will and no social life, MMO's can obviously turn into huge timesinks. BUt so can other games or web based entertainement.

Really? Suppose I'll start playing WoW now, less than one hour a day, completely from scratch; how long would it take me to reach all PvP content and have the best gear, assuming that I could play the game perfectly right off the bat?

Wait, wait, did I say "you can play 30min a day a get everything you want"? No, I said "you can play 30min a day and be a competitive PvP player". Competitive means that you can get decent gear, and still reach high PvP-rank. You could probably also get the best gear, if you're really skilled, though the vanity items awarded to the best PvP players would probably be out of reach.
The current PvP system (arena ranking) doesn't require one to play hours and hours. You simply have to play 10 games a week and win most of them to be rewarded.
Pexing to lvl 80 while playing 30min a days would obviously (and hopefully) take a while. WoW setting is quite interesting, the game has thousand of quest, dozens of areas to explore. It would kind of suck if you could go through the leveling phase in 15 hours.

@MRD, your opinion of WoW is wrong on so many point I could write ten walls of text about it. Though I admit some of your criticism had some basis 2 years ago, the game vastly changed with the 2 addons.

To go through it quickly:

- Crafting is indeed a joke. It improved with The Burning Crusade (in that it wasn't completely useless anymore), but it still a small (though required) part of the game. Economy might be a joke, though I don't know of any MMO that offers a better model (except for EVE, but EVE obviously can't be compared to WoW, WAR online or Everquest).

- Templates used to be cookie-cutters, and most classes only had one to use in PvE and one to use in PvP. That's not the case anymore. Things changed with BC (who tried to offer each class an effective damage dealing template), and with Wrath of the Lich King. The devs are explicitely trying to make every template effective both in PvE and PvP. Furthermore, you can now change your template with a single click without even having to pay.

- I don't see how the level system is a joke. Do you mean the leveling phase sucks (I would strongly disagree), or do you mean that leveling the character isn't that interesting (I would agree, I'd like to have more things to do than putting a talent point somewhere)? In any case, the leveling is kind of the introduction to the game, as it's based around end-level content.

- I don't know what you're talking about with your medics rant. I played a healer for 2 years and deeply enjoyed it. The last updates made healers and tanks quite effective as solo-playing and grinding, so meh :confused:
And would you prefer a point and click heal system over a more innovative one? I kind of don't understand here again, as 70% of WoW playing is made through point and click (the 30% remaining being based on more innovative and IMO fun features).

- As for PvP, I simply don't enjoy it (I liked it on Eve, once again because the game is vastly different from other MMO's), but for a traditional RPG, well, I think it sucks. I think WoW arena system sucks, as it attempted to turn the game into some crap-ass E-sport. The instanced battlegrounds are fun for the most part, and BC and WotLK introduced some open-PvP objectives, involving bombardment, vehicules, castles and what not (WotLK even offers a whole PvP based open area).
I still think that mass-PvP is quite a fail so far in MMO. I enjoy having random PvP fights while leveling, but that's about it.

Jolt

04-12-2009, 14:54

Really? Suppose I'll start playing WoW now, less than one hour a day, completely from scratch; how long would it take me to reach all PvP content and have the best gear, assuming that I could play the game perfectly right off the bat?

I know a way you can reach level 80 with a character in a day without even playing the said character. And I mean original Blizzard servers and charcters.

Crandaeolon

04-13-2009, 09:04

I know a way you can reach level 80 with a character in a day without even playing the said character. And I mean original Blizzard servers and charcters.

Does it involve paying for a powerleveling service, purchasing a second-hand account or leeching in a coordinated leveling group?

Competitive means that you can get decent gear, and still reach high PvP-rank. You could probably also get the best gear, if you're really skilled, though the vanity items awarded to the best PvP players would probably be out of reach.

I'm primarily interested in controlled small-teams PvP where each player has exactly the same options, be it levels, skills or gear (IMO a player isn't "competitive" otherwise.) Being limited to a certain class isn't a problem as long as said class is universally viable in competitive play.

Jolt

04-13-2009, 18:06

Nope. Completely free. All it involves is checking your account information, removing a part of it and sending an e-mail to Blizzard troubleshoot. In one day, you are granted by blizzard a 80 level character. Problem is I don't think you have any gear.

a completely inoffensive name

04-17-2009, 01:05

I will try it, but I am severely disappointed they didn't just make KOTOR 3. I went crazy over the first two and i was shattered when they announced it was an MMO. I just hope it can actually make a dent into WoW which I never liked.

Lemur

04-20-2009, 20:33

MMOs = grind. Sorry, but it's true. I tried one back in the infancy of the genre (Dark Age of Camelot) and promptly washed my hands of the whole business. I need to be able to quit at any time. I need to be able to define my gaming hours very strictly. Sure, you could play an MMO that way, but you could never play it well.

I think they are fantastic for people with chronic medical conditions and other house-bound sorts. But for people who have jobs and/or families? No sir, not a good idea.

econ21

09-24-2009, 22:35

I am not sure if this was mentioned at the time, but I just saw the gameplay walkthroughs released late August. I'm impressed - dialogue, atmosphere, combat and graphics all look good to me. I think Bioware might well manage to merge the virtues of Kotor with the MMO format.

There are four walkthroughs, the first is linked to below:

http://uk.pc.ign.com/dor/objects/816935/bioware-mmo-project/videos/gcom09_oldrepublic_spc1_082109.html

Beskar

09-24-2009, 23:07

If I am honest, TOR when I last saw it looked like a Massive Singleplayer Online Role Player.

Oh, if anyone is interested, I got a 25% off code for the game if you buy it from Direct2Drive.com, pm me if you are interested.

econ21

09-25-2009, 12:20

If I am honest, TOR when I last saw it looked like a Massive Singleplayer Online Role Player.

That's exactly what I am looking for. As Lemur said, MMOs are usually about grind. The thing I like about Bioware RPGs is that they are not "kill 20 boars in this area" quests, but much more fun story and character driven questing. So fingers crossed, a Bioware MMO should provide a richer experience for the solo player. The video walkthroughs have me optimistic about this.

I've never been that into PvP and while I like raiding, my personal life means I can't find the time to commit to it.

I'm having some fun with the Lord of the Rings online, which is rather-like WoW, but suits me with more emphasis on solo levelling (and a nice Tolkien-ore atmosphere), less on PvP and raiding. However, it still is a grind. Not only does every map appear to have a "kill 20 boars" quest, some maps even have separate boar-killing quests in sub-areas of the map. The experience pales in comparison to a Bioware single-player game.

Beskar

09-25-2009, 12:40

I hate to see you in a FPS game "This game is a grind! I just walk here and shoot things and then I go there and I shoot things!" :beam:

It's like that point in Total War where you go "you know what? I can't be bothered fighting a 30 minute battle when I can just auto-battle it in a less of a second and I stand a good chance of winning".

The thing I dislike about TOR, if it is a massive-online-single-player-game, I don't think there should be a monthly fee aspect to it, in a sense, it turns into something like guild wars which is pretty much free. The cost just seems too great otherwise.

econ21

09-25-2009, 13:00

I hate to see you in a FPS game "This game is a grind! I just walk here and shoot things and then I go there and I shoot things!" :beam:

Yes - apparently that was my first reaction to playing football as a new entrant to kindergarden. "Mum, you have to kick the ball. Then, you have to kick it AGAIN!"

On FPSs you are right. My son is buying Halo ODST today and I've promised to play the campaign co-operatively with him. But to be honest, it fills me with dread. So boring. Shoot this, shoot that. Snooze.

It's like that point in Total War where you go "you know what? I can't be bothered fighting a 30 minute battle when I can just auto-battle it in a less of a second and I stand a good chance of winning".

I guess the point about grinding is that is doing repetitive things you don't enjoy. I don't like kicking balls, I don't like shooters, I don't like killing boars/rats. I love TW battles. And I love Bioware RPGs. Some of that is personal preference, but it's also to do with the complexity of the task and the effort put into the design. I am 100% sure that a lot more design effort goes into a Bioware quest than a generic "kill 20 boars" quest. Even if it is just a matter of employing good writers, giving a good story motivation to the quest, employing professional voice actors etc, a Bioware quest may still require you to go to place A and kill 10 mobs, but it will be a much more satisfying experience.

The thing I dislike about TOR, if it is a massive-online-single-player-game, I don't think there should be a monthly fee aspect to it, in a sense, it turns into something like guild wars which is pretty much free. The cost just seems too great otherwise.

That also relates to the issue of grind. If it is pay a monthly fee just to kill boars, then I can understand the objection. But if it is paying a monthly fee to enjoy the single player experience of a Bioware RPG, I don't see a problem. When you run out of good content, stop playing the game and paying the fee. There is the question of whether Bioware will add sufficient good quality content to keep people paying that fee for months on end. But I'm reasonably optimistic. Levelling in games like WoW can take a casual player like me around a year. I could conceive of Bioware delivering a similar amount of content but with a higher quality, especially when the MMO funding model should allow them to add areas and stuff over time. There will come a time when you are level capped and so the game will have to rely on something like PvP or raiding to keep you playing, but I don't see myself playing the same game for much over a year anyway (until the inevitable expansion).

Beskar

09-25-2009, 13:41

Yes - apparently that was my first reaction to playing football as a new entrant to kindergarden. "Mum, you have to kick the ball. Then, you have to kick it AGAIN!"

I also dislike football too. However, I can understand how it can be entertaining playing the game. (Whole team-work, having a laugh with friends)

However, watching football? Could be worse though.. cricket.

econ21

06-09-2011, 00:24

Bumping this thread - it's hard to believe it's almost 2 years since the game was discussed here.

I just spotted the latest cinematic trailer:

http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/return

Even if the game bombs, whoever makes these cinematic trailers could still have a future in movies.

a completely inoffensive name

06-09-2011, 04:54

Not buying it on principle of story. They retconned KOTOR 2 and ruined the story of Revan.

Centurion1

06-09-2011, 06:24

ugh..... mmo's. The ony one i have ever played is runescape and i will never play another.

MMO's= wasted time, grinding, MONTHLY fees, sad sad people often.

Its the monthly fees that truly get to me. Especially when i pay for the box and then i get to pay per month...... how much is WOW like 10 a month?

econ21

06-09-2011, 06:41

Not buying it on principle of story. They retconned KOTOR 2 and ruined the story of Revan.

I haven't paid attention to story issues - what have they changed about Revan's story?

Its the monthly fees that truly get to me. Especially when i pay for the box and then i get to pay per month...... how much is WOW like 10 a month?

Well, ultimately you decide if the price is right for you. WOW has had so much content that I feel I got my money's worth. However, right now, I feel I've done as much as I want to (or can), so I've stopped subscribing.

I rather like the "free to play" model of Dungeons and Dragons online and Lord of the Rings online (LOTRO). You can subscribe for a month or whatever to enjoy all the new content, then you can drop by as a free player to do a more limited range of things when you like - perhaps buying a few "quest packs" if you want to continue raiding or whatever.

You can't judge MMOs from Runescape. WOW is an incredibly polished game that puts most single player games to shame in terms of the level of development effort it has received. (Just playing other good RPGs like LOTRO or Dragon Age, you appreciate how well WOW has done various things like facilitating pick-up groups or balancing classes).

Centurion1

06-09-2011, 08:43

no its not runescape i truly dislike them because of the fees and because of the people and negative setreotypes associated with them. the only people irl ive known who play them simply reinforce those stereotypes.

Graphic

06-09-2011, 15:19

I wish they'd make a proper KotOR 3. First two are classics. MMOs don't offer that personal experience that Bioware games (usually) offer.

a completely inoffensive name

06-10-2011, 00:06

Massive spoilers in my post, so don't read if you never played KOTOR 1 or 2

I haven't paid attention to story issues - what have they changed about Revan's story?

Well, in KOTOR 2 you learn from Kreia that Revan never really fell to the dark side. As Revan and Malak chased the Mandalorian Fleet to the furthest reaches of the outer rim they cam across the "True Sith" a collective that was pretty much unexplained by Kreia in KOTOR 2. When Revan came across and discovered the "True Sith", he being the tactical genius that he was realized that the Republic was too fragile and not able to withstand the coming attack by the "True Sith", thus he decided to take his army and his followers and convert them into a massive dark side army, fueled by the Star Forge which he also discovered during his campaigns in the Mandalorian Wars. This he figured would be the only chance for the galazy to survive the new invaders. If he could conquer the galaxy before the true sith invaded, he would be able to repel and destroy the invaders and save the galaxy.

In short, Revan only pretended to be the Dark lord of Sith in order to save the galaxy in the long run. Malak was not nearly as smart or strong willed as Revan was and actually did become consumed by the dark side, turning into the ultra evil villain that he is in KOTOR 1.

In KOTOR 2 it is revealed that after defeating Malak and the star forge, Revan went back into the unknown in order to find the true sith again and confront them in some other way, or otherwise stall them to give the republic enough time to recuperate to defend itself.

It is backed up by numerous statements in KOTOR 2 that Revan did not destroy everythign in his path but merely went out of his way to minimize the amount of damage done to the Republic before having them surrender. He captured military bases and shipyards instead of destroying them whereas Malak decimated entire planets for the heck of it (see Taris).

This is all crossed out according to the new MMO timeline. KOTOR 2 never happened.

Now Revan and Malak met the "true sith" which are actually regular sith that fled from the Great Hyperspace War to an uncharted outer rim world and rebuilt themselves into another Sith empire by the time of the MMO. Revan and Malak met the emperor of the sith and fell to the dark side and became typical bad guys. The emperor told them to capture the star forge for the this unknown sith empire in order to advance the plans for invasion by a few hundred years. Revan and Malak got greedy though and tried to use the star forge to take over the galaxy for themselves.

Then Revan was captured, became good, saved the galaxy, blew up the star forge and the MMO timeline does not elaborate on what he did after KOTOR 1. There is a book coming out in a few months dedicated to telling the full story of Revan, which will give the definitive timeline and actions of what Revan did before and after KOTOR 1. I hope it is not an epic failure.

But yeah, basically they turned Revan from a very nuanced and unique character that defied the polarization of good vs evil that star wars loves to throw in our faces, into yet another example of the polarization of good vs evil with no realness to any of it.

The "true sith" which could have been an exciting new villain/force in the Star Wars universe become yet another rehash of the Empire, except now with KOTOR art design.

And the only reason why all this butchering of a great story happened in the first place is because Galaxies was mismanaged to death with crappy game changing patches that no one liked. And of course in order to have a great MMO you need to two sides that are fighting each other because there is absolutely no way you could have an MMO without some sort of war going on as a background. That would take imagination.

Star Wars has the crappiest extend universe out of any sci-fi I.P. All it is one war after another. Not even Luke Skywalker bringing balance to the force does anything to stop the cycle because Legacy has decided that only 140 years after the battle of Yavin, there is another Empire in control of the galaxy.

I ******* hate it all so much. And I hate LucasArts. And I hate whoever wrote the plot for this terrible MMO.

johnhughthom

06-10-2011, 00:30

Not even Luke Skywalker bringing balance to the force does anything to stop the cycle.

Wasn't it Anakin Skywalker? But yes, Star Wars extended universe is a blight on the originals' legacy. Apart from two forum based mafia games...

Jolt

06-10-2011, 02:25

Not buying it on principle of story. They retconned KOTOR 2 and ruined the story of Revan.

Not knowing anything of the game besides KOTOR 1, the narrator looked like Bastila, and the Sith fellows originally looked exactly like Revan and Malak.

I was disapoint.

But HOLY :daisy: what an epic trailer!

jirisys

06-10-2011, 03:39

Samurai Waki

06-10-2011, 04:41

I used to never write off games... but I'm just so tired of crap. Goodbye MMOs I hardly knew ye'.

Motep

06-10-2011, 04:45

This just ruined a long standing vague anticipation.

Graphic

06-10-2011, 07:23

KOTOR=somewhat bad characters but good finished gameplay.
KOTOR2=great characters but unfinished and rushed gameplay. However I loved all the concepts and complications of the plot.

I still liked it a lot, but KotOR 2 is such a missed opportunity. If everything that got cut was included, I think it would have easily been better than the first one.

Does anyone know if any of the restoration mods are actually done?

Monk

06-10-2011, 08:02

I still liked it a lot, but KotOR 2 is such a missed opportunity. If everything that got cut was included, I think it would have easily been better than the first one.

Does anyone know if any of the restoration mods are actually done?

The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod was released a while ago.

http://deadlystream.com/forum/forum/4-tslrcm/

Download link: http://deadlystream.com/forum/files/file/13-tslrcm/

Go forth and download, because it was a long time coming - and worth every moment of the wait.

Sarmatian

06-10-2011, 12:45

Massive spoilers in my post, so don't read if you never played KOTOR 1 or 2

Well, in KOTOR 2 you learn from Kreia that Revan never really fell to the dark side. As Revan and Malak chased the Mandalorian Fleet to the furthest reaches of the outer rim they cam across the "True Sith" a collective that was pretty much unexplained by Kreia in KOTOR 2. When Revan came across and discovered the "True Sith", he being the tactical genius that he was realized that the Republic was too fragile and not able to withstand the coming attack by the "True Sith", thus he decided to take his army and his followers and convert them into a massive dark side army, fueled by the Star Forge which he also discovered during his campaigns in the Mandalorian Wars. This he figured would be the only chance for the galazy to survive the new invaders. If he could conquer the galaxy before the true sith invaded, he would be able to repel and destroy the invaders and save the galaxy.

In short, Revan only pretended to be the Dark lord of Sith in order to save the galaxy in the long run. Malak was not nearly as smart or strong willed as Revan was and actually did become consumed by the dark side, turning into the ultra evil villain that he is in KOTOR 1.

Also spoiler for those who haven't played KOTOR 1 and 2

I don't think that's true. Revan didn't pretend he fell to the dark side, so that he could unite the galaxy. He fell to the dark side truly, even though his desire was to do good ultimately. In order to defeat the Mandalorians, he became like them, ruthless, efficient, calculating, despising weakness. He encountered "True Sith" which may as well have been an idea, and thought that in order to protect the galaxy, galaxy must be united under strong leadership. Even though his intention was noble originally, he became corrupted somewhere in the way, like that Nietzche quote, He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.

The biggest problem I have with changing lore is that "True Sith" suddenly became a political entity, bent on destruction and domination. When playing Kotor 2, I was more under an impression that True Sith were an abstract notion, the realization that the Republic is weak, corrupt, dependent on bureacrats and that when a serious threat appears, republic will perish unless united under strong leadership. Kreia's words that the Republic foolishy believes they have destroyed the Sith because Sith can not be destroyed as it is an idea, a belief, seems to reinforce this position.

a completely inoffensive name

06-10-2011, 12:56

Wasn't it Anakin Skywalker? But yes, Star Wars extended universe is a blight on the originals' legacy. Apart from two forum based mafia games...

The whole prophecy is practically garbage now. Yes, technically it is Anakin Skywalker bringing balance to the force, but if they are going to go and break the prophecy in the EU by having more sith bad guys conquer the galaxy, let us just call what Return of the Jedi really is, Luke Skywalker bringing his dad back to the light who promptly did the last piece of work that needed to be done. Luke pulled all the weight.

a completely inoffensive name

06-10-2011, 13:21

Also spoiler for those who haven't played KOTOR 1 and 2

I don't think that's true. Revan didn't pretend he fell to the dark side, so that he could unite the galaxy. He fell to the dark side truly, even though his desire was to do good ultimately. In order to defeat the Mandalorians, he became like them, ruthless, efficient, calculating, despising weakness. He encountered "True Sith" which may as well have been an idea, and thought that in order to protect the galaxy, galaxy must be united under strong leadership. Even though his intention was noble originally, he became corrupted somewhere in the way, like that Nietzche quote, He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.

The biggest problem I have with changing lore is that "True Sith" suddenly became a political entity, bent on destruction and domination. When playing Kotor 2, I was more under an impression that True Sith were an abstract notion, the realization that the Republic is weak, corrupt, dependent on bureacrats and that when a serious threat appears, republic will perish unless united under strong leadership. Kreia's words that the Republic foolishy believes they have destroyed the Sith because Sith can not be destroyed as it is an idea, a belief, seems to reinforce this position.

More spoilers

What you are saying is possible, but I think the dialogue from 1 and 2 lean more towards my interpretation. Tomorrow when I get home from uni I will start looking up some dialogue from the games that I recall. I distinctly remember there being a line talking about how Revan did not annihilate everything like your typical fallen jedi/ Sith master. He spared some regions that would be deemed critical when defending against an invasion coming to destroy the galaxy, and only destroyed that which would allow him to press forward to a Republic surrender, not a complete destruction of it. Really, a Sith master doesn't care about lives and would charge in if he knew he would win and kill everyone and everything, which is what Malak eventually did. Will gather more info and post here again soon.

In KOTOR 2, the "true sith" very much abstract and not explained at all. The idea of what Sith is, is very much unexplained and open to interpretation. I feel that when Kreia talks about what Sith is, she means in the basic sense of what distinguishes a Sith from anything else. A Sith is death. It is not power or "the dark side", it is pure death. The cold hand coming down upon you that cannot be stopped, is from the hands of a powerful Sith, no one else. Between Sion and Nihilus, Nihilus is the real Sith. Sion is simply an angry man who wants power and when you finally get him to stop being angry and let go, he dies. Nihilius needs death, he craves it. That is all he wants and all he strives for. This is what I feel the "true sith" should have been. This is when the Yuuzhan Vong should have came into play in the Star Wars EU.

Canderous talks about coming across a Yuuzhan Vong ship during his early years in the Mandalorian Fleet.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong#Pre-invasion

The "true sith" as I envisioned it, is a threat that is truly more evil than your most evil Sith master. The Yuuzhan Vong are not from the Star Wars galaxy and are not connected to the lifespans in it through the force, they don't know of the force. The Sith conquer in order to gain power over everything else and use killing as a way to attain it. The Yuuzhan Vong really don't want power, they have no need for life because the force is nothing to them, they only want death, they only want the galaxy to themselves. So in that sense I feel like they could have been the "true sith" that kreia talked about.

This would make quite an epic story imo. One of Kreia's main objectives was the destruction of the force because she felt that the destruction caused by endless Sith vs Jedi conflicts would never end and allow everyone to die due to the true sith coming about and wiping the floor out of a weakened galaxy/republic. What amazing story writing would it have been if Kreia succeeded in destroying the Jedi and Sith orders completely and KOTOR 3 connected the first two by signalling the Yuuzhan Vong coming in, and the galaxy now needs the users of the force to gain the upper hand in pushing back this truly alien threat, thus bringing back an eventual rehash of the Sith vs Jedi endless conflicts once the Vong had been pushed back and defeated.

In short I feel that when Kreia is talking about the Republic foolishly thinking they destroyed the Sith, she is stating that you cannot kill the Sith because to be Sith is the idea that everything must die. I think the "true sith", whatever they might be, is the epitome of death in the sense that there really is no other motivation behind this group or idea where as the Sith philosophy only uses death as a stepping stone to gaining power.

a completely inoffensive name

06-10-2011, 13:50

Ahh, as I was looking up quotes about Revan's military tactics, it seems that the question of where Revan's loyalties lie has been a question tackled many times already with no definitive answer until this crap MMO came out.

http://swforums.bioware.com/viewtopic.html?topic=642828&forum=76
http://swforums.bioware.com/viewtopic.html?topic=709824&forum=76

lars573

06-10-2011, 18:33

a completely inoffensive name

06-12-2011, 11:30

Kreia literally says that Korriban and Malachor V are the fringes of the true Sith's influence, and are actually the newest of the Sith's buildings.

a completely inoffensive name

06-26-2011, 11:48

Question: If this game fails massively, will LucasArts or EA declare bankruptcy?

White_eyes:D

06-26-2011, 12:04

More likely they well get rid of Bioware....:book:

econ21

06-26-2011, 12:06

Question: If this game fails massively, will LucasArts or EA declare bankruptcy?

I had assumed it would be Bioware that was bearing the risk and LucasArts merely licensing the source material, not sure where EA stands. It would be awful if Bioware did go bankrupt, although the people there seem so talented, I suspect they would find work elsewhere - rather how some Black Isle folk turned up in Obsidian. However, one should not be over-confident about re-employment - I was sad to read that the lead person on Dragon Age quit the industry.

I am fairly optimistic they will succeed. There's not that much competition right now. Warcraft is starting to look old. Guild Wars 2 could compete for time, but not subscriptions (it won't have them). There's not much else on the MMO market that stands out. I think Bioware will do a good job, given their track record.

a completely inoffensive name

06-26-2011, 12:18

I am 99% certain that it is either LucasArts or EA putting up the money. Bioware does not have 80 million dollars to spend while doing Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age 3.

a completely inoffensive name

06-26-2011, 12:23

Looks like it is EA putting up the money. http://www.industrygamers.com/news/star-wars-mmo-costs-an-estimated-80-million-to-develop/

So I should redo my question. If TOR fails massively, how will EA handle which games it will push in the aftermath?

Voigtkampf

06-26-2011, 15:55

The schedule of EA shouldn't be affected by any possible massive failure of SW:TOR. Which is a very probable outcome.

KotOR would not work as MMO; hence, the whole deal with miles and miles of dialogue lines is a pre-programmed FAIL. Who even reads the damn quest text for the N-th time? Who reads it the first time around!? It is always the same old "Kill Ten Rats" rubbish, anyway.

Star Wars title that has space flight included as an afterthought is a botched concept from the get go, like SW Galaxies, and like SW Galaxies, the space flight has very, very little meaning to the entire game. In SWTOR the space fight portions remind me of old arcade days, flying ahead in the invisible tunnel and shooting rows and rows of enemy fliers. That is half the EPIC FAIL right there.

Whereas the graphics are not that stunning to begin with, my personal biggest beef are the animations. Most figures run around and act as if they had a stick up their rear. Stiff as a board and lovin' every minute of it!!! In SW fights, there is little to no grace, especially if we look at the Jedi/Sith combat.

If this game adopts sandbox elements, then it might add up to something, but as it is, I don't think we'll have a quality gameplay and no decent player driven economy.

Also, as for the subscription fee; next to WoW, there is hardly a game that can still afford itself to persist on the old model, everyone and their dogs are switching to some hybrid form of free-to-play. And they are all doing better afterwards, so the math works. D&D, LOTRO, APB, Champions Online, now Fallen Earth, with Star Trek Online to surely follow at some point. People are slow with giving hard earned cash for more than one sub these days. And with GW2 as being sub-free and rivaling the SWTOR; things are getting even nastier.

To sum it up, for over 300 million dollars developing costs, I am certain right now that SWTOR will prove to be a bubble of even bigger proportions than Age of Conan was. But they will reel in at least half their costs at the very start, then the item shops will come, I guess they will pull even eventually. Also, have in mind that EA is loaded. Like, imagine Ron White's voice - looooaaaadeeeeed! They won't be hurt no matter which way the whole story goes.

Personally, I would wish nothing more than me be proved wrong, that I will enjoy the game with millions of others, and that it will be the greatest thing since sliced bread. However, many years of gaming experience and good familiarity with the industry itself are telling me that SWTOR will be underachiever; the scope of it remains to be determined.

Krusader

06-26-2011, 18:13

I'm not so optimistic either with the game, however from what I've gathered it seems quests are handled differently in SWTOR than WoW and other MMOs. Also, each class seem to have their own storyline and thus good number of class-only quests quests.

Two links that might be interesting:
Gabe from Penny Arcade's SWTOR First Impressions (http://www.penny-arcade.com/2011/6/22/)

Sith Warrior Betaleak page (http://betacake.blogspot.com/2011/06/star-wars-old-republic-sith-warrior_23.html)

a completely inoffensive name

06-27-2011, 04:05

The schedule of EA shouldn't be affected by any possible massive failure of SW:TOR. Which is a very probable outcome.

To sum it up, for over 300 million dollars developing costs, I am certain right now that SWTOR will prove to be a bubble of even bigger proportions than Age of Conan was. But they will reel in at least half their costs at the very start, then the item shops will come, I guess they will pull even eventually. Also, have in mind that EA is loaded. Like, imagine Ron White's voice - looooaaaadeeeeed! They won't be hurt no matter which way the whole story goes.

So if they only make half the money back, they are still out 150 million dollars. That is big cash there for EA. I don't think you could say that EA won't be even more penny pinching with their developers if they lose their TOR investment.

Voigtkampf

06-27-2011, 06:45

So if they only make half the money back, they are still out 150 million dollars. That is big cash there for EA. I don't think you could say that EA won't be even more penny pinching with their developers if they lose their TOR investment.

I think you missed the part where I sad "at the very start". First of all, it will be a great grand mega opening sale, with special editions and whatnot, three months subscriptions and so forth. I would hate to start playing with math, but I am almost definitely certain that, in comparison to other MMO's, SW:TOR will manage to hit 2-3 milion sold copies within the first month or two. The sales might flatten off, and the game itself (being the Star Wars IP after all) will definitely run for 2-3 more years, and lets assume that it drops down to appalling 500.000 subs - that will be, with 15$ a month, some 90m a year. So, even in the worst case scenario, I think they could come even in 3 years (one must have in mind that not all the money from sales goes to the EA and/or Bioware directly, one must consider the sellers between them and end-customer as some other cost factors).

Now, 150m is lunch money for great publishers like EA or Activision, nothing that will bring them down, maybe just a sharp sting in the ribs.

Also, at the end, we must ask ourselves - what does "massive failure" mean? In my humble opinion, there are two criteria; one set be those that produce the game and sell it, and they ask "how much money we've made?". The other is set by the players themselves, and people ask "is this game good/worth p(l)aying for me?". A neat comparison is Age of Conan; very much hyped, I fell for it (one of the rare games I failed to accurately determine whether it will be a success or not) and believed it would be the end of WoW (for me at least). Bought the damn Special Edition with a leather map, "daisy" that thing! However, in a record time, the game proved to be, well, crap. IIRC, It fell from a million starting subs to under 300.000 subs after the first three months. The players had a lot, a LOT to moan and complain about, and they voted with their feet and simply left. Only after a year and a half fresh wind came to AoC and things started improving, soon AoC is going F2P, but the initial damage was sone.

Now, AoC is, as far as most of players are concerned, a failure. However, the game has brought in a substantial load of cash, and Funcom is considering it a success. As Einstein said, the damn thing is all relative.

a completely inoffensive name

06-27-2011, 07:21

I think you missed the part where I sad "at the very start". First of all, it will be a great grand mega opening sale, with special editions and whatnot, three months subscriptions and so forth. I would hate to start playing with math, but I am almost definitely certain that, in comparison to other MMO's, SW:TOR will manage to hit 2-3 milion sold copies within the first month or two. The sales might flatten off, and the game itself (being the Star Wars IP after all) will definitely run for 2-3 more years, and lets assume that it drops down to appalling 500.000 subs - that will be, with 15$ a month, some 90m a year. So, even in the worst case scenario, I think they could come even in 3 years (one must have in mind that not all the money from sales goes to the EA and/or Bioware directly, one must consider the sellers between them and end-customer as some other cost factors).
I am a bit more pessimistic about the # of first month sales but yes, overall your math does work out. However, it doesn't take more than a month before customers leave in flock as you put it below about AoC. I don't have the actual numbers before me, but didn't Galaxies have a very large (like 60-75% or more) portion of their subscribers quickly leave after the NGE patch? I heard Galaxies was hitting a low of 12,000 subs logged in at various points.

Now, 150m is lunch money for great publishers like EA or Activision, nothing that will bring them down, maybe just a sharp sting in the ribs.
Well, quick glance at wikipedia says that although their revenue is $3.6 billion, their net income is only $677 million. So it seems more than lunch money, maybe I am missing something.

Also, at the end, we must ask ourselves - what does "massive failure" mean? In my humble opinion, there are two criteria; one set be those that produce the game and sell it, and they ask "how much money we've made?". The other is set by the players themselves, and people ask "is this game good/worth p(l)aying for me?". A neat comparison is Age of Conan; very much hyped, I fell for it (one of the rare games I failed to accurately determine whether it will be a success or not) and believed it would be the end of WoW (for me at least). Bought the damn Special Edition with a leather map, "daisy" that thing! However, in a record time, the game proved to be, well, crap. IIRC, It fell from a million starting subs to under 300.000 subs after the first three months. The players had a lot, a LOT to moan and complain about, and they voted with their feet and simply left. Only after a year and a half fresh wind came to AoC and things started improving, soon AoC is going F2P, but the initial damage was sone.

Now, AoC is, as far as most of players are concerned, a failure. However, the game has brought in a substantial load of cash, and Funcom is considering it a success. As Einstein said, the damn thing is all relative.

Is LucasArts and EA really going to happy if it fails with subscribers but still made them a bit of money? It seems to me that their motivation here is to get close to the constant money cash cow that is WoW. The only reason they are making this MMO is because Galaxies failed in the first place, so if success just means it made some money even if it lost its base, they could have done all this a lot differently than hiring BioWare, an MMO that has 10,000+ hours of voice acting and 300+ million investment. I 100% agree with you that "failure" is greatly different from the perspective of a consumer and publisher though.

Voigtkampf

06-27-2011, 11:26

I am a bit more pessimistic about the # of first month sales but yes, overall your math does work out. However, it doesn't take more than a month before customers leave in flock as you put it below about AoC. I don't have the actual numbers before me, but didn't Galaxies have a very large (like 60-75% or more) portion of their subscribers quickly leave after the NGE patch? I heard Galaxies was hitting a low of 12,000 subs logged in at various points.

It is indeed possible to swing either way; depending on how good the EA spins the promotion wheel, SW:TOR could be more or less successful. But in regards how other MMO's are doing recently, including RIFT, I think couple of million sold copies in the first month or two are still very reasonable assumption. After all, it is Star Wars. As for the strict numbers on when and how many players left, I can't tell, since I only observed the game for a short while. Indeed it seemed quite successful at the start, selling over one million copies; mind you, that was 2005, the year when WoW only just started, and MMO's were still a matter of obscurity. However, the quality of the game was so low, so much of it was unfinished that it was a fair statement that a game came out a year too early. It eventually turned really bad, as you said, with cca 10k people logged in at the same time. Btw, they have recently announced that they are shutting down Star Wars: Galaxies in December 2011.

Well, quick glance at wikipedia says that although their revenue is $3.6 billion, their net income is only $677 million. So it seems more than lunch money, maybe I am missing something.

Yeah, it seems so, but I can't really admit that I can figure out all the numbers, but for the several last quarters the Net Income was 201m, 322m and 151m that was from 09/2010 until 03/2011. 150m is basically the corrected net income for a bad quarter. Maybe not exactly lunch money, but still no neck-breaking number.

Is LucasArts and EA really going to happy if it fails with subscribers but still made them a bit of money? It seems to me that their motivation here is to get close to the constant money cash cow that is WoW. The only reason they are making this MMO is because Galaxies failed in the first place, so if success just means it made some money even if it lost its base, they could have done all this a lot differently than hiring BioWare, an MMO that has 10,000+ hours of voice acting and 300+ million investment. I 100% agree with you that "failure" is greatly different from the perspective of a consumer and publisher though.

To make a cash cow that gets close to WoW may have been their initial dream indeed, but honestly, it is downright impossible to reproduce that. Blizzard is the king of the hill, they got the king Midas golden touch, and nobody else can compare to them at this given moment. Not even BioWare, and not by a long shot. I reckon they will settle for money and a mediocre success of most MMO's that have been launched recently. Also, other than BioWare, I don't really know who Lucas could have gotten to make them game half as good as BioWare guaranteed by its RPG reputation alone. Sadly, you need to insert that RPG successfully into an MMO and make a good MMORPG.

I don't care much about EA's millions. I am just worried that i won't live to see a decent Star Wars or Star Trek MMO made.

a completely inoffensive name

06-28-2011, 07:20

It is indeed possible to swing either way; depending on how good the EA spins the promotion wheel, SW:TOR could be more or less successful. But in regards how other MMO's are doing recently, including RIFT, I think couple of million sold copies in the first month or two are still very reasonable assumption. After all, it is Star Wars. As for the strict numbers on when and how many players left, I can't tell, since I only observed the game for a short while. Indeed it seemed quite successful at the start, selling over one million copies; mind you, that was 2005, the year when WoW only just started, and MMO's were still a matter of obscurity. However, the quality of the game was so low, so much of it was unfinished that it was a fair statement that a game came out a year too early. It eventually turned really bad, as you said, with cca 10k people logged in at the same time. Btw, they have recently announced that they are shutting down Star Wars: Galaxies in December 2011.
I had heard differently about Galaxies. There a crap ton of old Star Wars Galaxies players on Reddit.com in the r/gaming forum and they all said that Galaxies was intensive and complex but incredibly rewarding and fun with a great community. After WoW came out, they simplified the hell out of it into a Star Wars WoW clone (classes before were fluid and could be mixed together but then suddenly became rigid and unchangeable), essentially changing the entire game in the process and causing the huge flock. Before that, it was supposedly an amazing Star Wars MMO.

Yeah, it seems so, but I can't really admit that I can figure out all the numbers, but for the several last quarters the Net Income was 201m, 322m and 151m that was from 09/2010 until 03/2011. 150m is basically the corrected net income for a bad quarter. Maybe not exactly lunch money, but still no neck-breaking number. Agreed.

To make a cash cow that gets close to WoW may have been their initial dream indeed, but honestly, it is downright impossible to reproduce that. Blizzard is the king of the hill, they got the king Midas golden touch, and nobody else can compare to them at this given moment. Not even BioWare, and not by a long shot. I reckon they will settle for money and a mediocre success of most MMO's that have been launched recently. Also, other than BioWare, I don't really know who Lucas could have gotten to make them game half as good as BioWare guaranteed by its RPG reputation alone. Sadly, you need to insert that RPG successfully into an MMO and make a good MMORPG.
It is downright impossible to take down WoW at this point, you are right, but while us gamers recognize that, does EA or LucasArts recognize that? This is a time when publishers such as EA and Activision have actively killed dozens of companies and franchises in a pursuit to get profits that were unattainable. All the gamers knew that the fake band market was over saturated, but Activision didn't and continued to push Guitar Hero so much that they eventually killed the franchise entirely. Remember how great Maxis was? SimAnt, SimCity, Alpha Centauri, and yes, the original The Sims. Now what is Maxis pushing? A rehash of a rehash of a once great game in order to continue to milk gamers of money for each $20 Sims "expansion" consisting of additional couches to buy in game. Oh and Spore, which could be one of the most disappointing games of the past decade, directly because of meddling in the design process (they purposely made everything look childish and ridiculously silly looking in order to capture a wider audience, because scary stuff would drive away customers).

It seems the two main publishers don't really grasp what is and isn't possible in the gaming market. They feel as if they can make a "product" as fast and possible and as many times as possible and advertise/hype it to the top spot just like any other market, but it doesn't work that way. So I would not be surprised if EA and LucasArts really do have their heads in the clouds and think as if they can take down WoW because they think they finally have some sort of secret weapon that will make their MMO completely different and better than the 8 year old WoW.

I don't care much about EA's millions. I am just worried that i won't live to see a decent Star Wars or Star Trek MMO made.
From what I have heard, Galaxies was an amazing Star Wars MMO with a great experience due to a friendly community (everyone was a hardcore Star Wars fan). So it looks like there was one made, but it came and went, killed by a quest for money that wasn't there, which might be the case yet again imo, with TOR.

EDIT: I just want to say, that if LucasArts truly was looking to make a bunch of money, then all this MMO business was completely unneccessary. There are already enough great Star Wars franchises that could have continued that if made properly would have been a big money stream for a decade or more.

Instead of taking on TOR, this is what they could have been pushing:

1. A new Jedi Knight game. (last one was 2003)
2. A new Rouge Squadron game. (last one was 2003)
3. They could have made KOTOR 3, and that would have been huge.
4. A new Battlefront (last one was 2005)
5. A sequel to Republic Commando (that came out in 2005)
6. A new Empire at War. (I felt it was a very unique series that could have have been improved upon a great deal. that came out in 2006-2007).

There you go. 6 games that imo, would be guaranteed profitable, blockbuster games if they were allowed to made correctly and not rushed like KOTOR 2.

Instead they go down this MMO path, a much more risky choice and push the crap that is The Force Unleashed, a mediocre game that is solely based around the novelty of the "cool" physics and material engines they made for it.

The only rational reason I can see for abandoning all these guaranteed games for TOR is that they must have their eyes on the big prize of taking down WoW, I can't see any other reason why.

Voigtkampf

06-28-2011, 11:53

I had heard differently about Galaxies. There a crap ton of old Star Wars Galaxies players on Reddit.com in the r/gaming forum and they all said that Galaxies was intensive and complex but incredibly rewarding and fun with a great community. After WoW came out, they simplified the hell out of it into a Star Wars WoW clone (classes before were fluid and could be mixed together but then suddenly became rigid and unchangeable), essentially changing the entire game in the process and causing the huge flock. Before that, it was supposedly an amazing Star Wars MMO.

Yes, I'd say there is a fair combination of both the game being not all too finished at the beginning (as are all MMO's, let us be honest, but those at the early days had something new ones do not have; healthy gameplay constructions upon which one could build upon) and then SOE coming in and basically ruining the game. As I said, I gathered as much from the community feedback, I was exploring Azeroth at the time and had little thoughts about SWG

It is downright impossible to take down WoW at this point, you are right, but while us gamers recognize that, does EA or LucasArts recognize that? This is a time when publishers such as EA and Activision have actively killed dozens of companies and franchises in a pursuit to get profits that were unattainable. All the gamers knew that the fake band market was over saturated, but Activision didn't and continued to push Guitar Hero so much that they eventually killed the franchise entirely. Remember how great Maxis was? SimAnt, SimCity, Alpha Centauri, and yes, the original The Sims. Now what is Maxis pushing? A rehash of a rehash of a once great game in order to continue to milk gamers of money for each $20 Sims "expansion" consisting of additional couches to buy in game. Oh and Spore, which could be one of the most disappointing games of the past decade, directly because of meddling in the design process (they purposely made everything look childish and ridiculously silly looking in order to capture a wider audience, because scary stuff would drive away customers).

Agreed.

It seems the two main publishers don't really grasp what is and isn't possible in the gaming market. They feel as if they can make a "product" as fast and possible and as many times as possible and advertise/hype it to the top spot just like any other market, but it doesn't work that way. So I would not be surprised if EA and LucasArts really do have their heads in the clouds and think as if they can take down WoW because they think they finally have some sort of secret weapon that will make their MMO completely different and better than the 8 year old WoW.

It is easy for them to lose touch with reality; they start thinking they can dictate not only what kind of games should be made but also that they can dictate that the public should love those games. Awakening comes very slowly for them, because there is no instant cause/effect relationship between their actions and reactions of the market. Mostly, though, they are completely incompetent and only thing the big companies manage to do today is excelling in alienating gamers with their actions and comments.

Instead of taking on TOR, this is what they could have been pushing:

1. A new Jedi Knight game. (last one was 2003)
2. A new Rouge Squadron game. (last one was 2003)
3. They could have made KOTOR 3, and that would have been huge.
4. A new Battlefront (last one was 2005)
5. A sequel to Republic Commando (that came out in 2005)
6. A new Empire at War. (I felt it was a very unique series that could have have been improved upon a great deal. that came out in 2006-2007).

There you go. 6 games that imo, would be guaranteed profitable, blockbuster games if they were allowed to made correctly and not rushed like KOTOR 2.

Instead they go down this MMO path, a much more risky choice and push the crap that is The Force Unleashed, a mediocre game that is solely based around the novelty of the "cool" physics and material engines they made for it.

The only rational reason I can see for abandoning all these guaranteed games for TOR is that they must have their eyes on the big prize of taking down WoW, I can't see any other reason why.

All wonderful games, yes, but I reckon in meanwhile Lucas Arts has as much insight into what is good concerning games as they have insight into what makes up for a good movie.
To this list, I would like to add X-Wing or the ultimate fun that was TIE Fighter with expansions. How come they don't make something like that!? Or an upgraded version of rather underestimated Star Wars: Rebellion, a strategy that I would love to play again.

The problem is not going down the MMO path. Problem is they suck righteous donkey while doing so. I stare at them in utter disbelief; they have an amazing universe that million people adore. Does it seem so hard to make a half decent MMO and wedge it in there, so people would be enchanted? Seems so. Goes for Star Trek as well. Here is a suggestion for an MMO, off the top of my head, and be assured, everyone would love the damn game.

Make an MMO based on Star Wars starships; a section of galaxy held by Alliance, the other by Empire, greatest part of it though should be conquerable space. Allow players to be on either side, or to create their own space corporations (EVE style), control planets, mine them for minerals, gases. Let them produce their own ships, sell them on the market, let them fly X-Wings, TIE Fighters, Star destroyers or freight ships, all by their own choice. Enable huge fleet battles, where every ship, from a small fighter to a super class destroyer has its role. Make fighters fly like it's a flight simulation. Create a game where there will be place for ship builders, smugglers, mercenaries and wrap it in Star Wars clothing. You don't even have to be very inventive, a simple combination of EVE Online, X-Wing vs TIE Fighter and Elite (only the oldies will know of this, I guess) would turn everything upside down.

Could anyone honestly say they think this would be a fail?

Vladimir

06-30-2011, 18:07

Make an MMO based on Star Wars starships; a section of galaxy held by Alliance, the other by Empire, greatest part of it though should be conquerable space. Allow players to be on either side, or to create their own space corporations (EVE style), control planets, mine them for minerals, gases. Let them produce their own ships, sell them on the market, let them fly X-Wings, TIE Fighters, Star destroyers or freight ships, all by their own choice. Enable huge fleet battles, where every ship, from a small fighter to a super class destroyer has its role. Make fighters fly like it's a flight simulation. Create a game where there will be place for ship builders, smugglers, mercenaries and wrap it in Star Wars clothing. You don't even have to be very inventive, a simple combination of EVE Online, X-Wing vs TIE Fighter and Elite (only the oldies will know of this, I guess) would turn everything upside down.

Could anyone honestly say they think this would be a fail?

I think that would be the prefect SW MMO. As you listed, all the games, ideas, and etc are there. They just need to be updated and merged. You can have an Old Republic version, a classic Star Wars version, and a fan fiction/post episode VI setting. It could blow everything away.

Montmorency

07-03-2011, 01:28

Instead of taking on TOR, this is what they could have been pushing:

1. A new Jedi Knight game. (last one was 2003)
2. A new Rouge Squadron game. (last one was 2003)
3. They could have made KOTOR 3, and that would have been huge.
4. A new Battlefront (last one was 2005)
5. A sequel to Republic Commando (that came out in 2005)
6. A new Empire at War. (I felt it was a very unique series that could have have been improved upon a great deal. that came out in 2006-2007).

5. I still want to know what happened to Sev.
6. EU-style with SOTS battles. That would be nice.

Also, why the avatar change?

a completely inoffensive name

07-03-2011, 02:01

Also, why the avatar change?

Because I like E:TW avatar's better. My name is so long I figured people will still easily recognize me. Do I know you?

Centurion1

07-03-2011, 04:24

1. A new Jedi Knight game. (last one was 2003)
2. A new Rouge Squadron game. (last one was 2003)
3. They could have made KOTOR 3, and that would have been huge.
4. A new Battlefront (last one was 2005)
5. A sequel to Republic Commando (that came out in 2005)
6. A new Empire at War. (I felt it was a very unique series that could have have been improved upon a great deal. that came out in 2006-2007).

1. never played or dont remember
2. remember playing this on demo at like target and stuff, adored it and always wanted it
3. i loved that game
4. adored that game it was ridiculously enjoyable
5. THIS IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE GAMES OF ALL TIME
6. never played always wanted too. who wasnt excited by the thought of sw strategy franchises.

jirisys

07-03-2011, 04:46

Where is FoCom in that list? It was an awesome game with awesome soundtrack. I don't particularly like techno, but that remix of the SW songs is just amazing. I love it. I love Rogue Squadron 1 and X-Wing alliance. Though they could have merged them into a better game. Rebellion I also played (Dear scott I'm old.), though it was more like EU (no battles, lots of managment) than any RTS, like the first game I played. Age of Empires (I'm ancient).

I moved on to SWBF. Beautiful, I cried because I couldn't run it until 2 years later, a year before SWBF2. I played both. I didn't like the AI or Multi in SWBF, but it was enjoyable.

SWRC was even better. Then came SW:EaW. Awesome, that's why I like Sins of a Solar Empire.

Then... KOTOR.

Boy! Was it awful to fight with. But I enjoyed it really.

Then KOTOR2, no big deal, I didn't pay much attention until recently.

Wow.

Now recently I saw the opening movie of TOR. I almost cried because of the sheer stupidity, and idiocy of it all. IT just felt George Lucas developped the story. 2005 George, not 1977 George.

~Jirisys ()

Centurion1

07-03-2011, 06:39

lol i played the original age of empires after aoe2. its what fostered a love for histroy tbh

a completely inoffensive name

07-22-2011, 05:08

Absolutely disgusting. Another reason why I will not be buying this game. Don't buy this game if you have principles.

https://i.imgur.com/O6KhZ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/uaU81.png

a completely inoffensive name

07-22-2011, 05:17

Even better.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-hxyOdo8Nwmo/TijblQdAg1I/AAAAAAAAAhw/FQQq7_gNfm0/s800/swtor.jpg (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-hxyOdo8Nwmo/TijblQdAg1I/AAAAAAAAAhw/FQQq7_gNfm0/s800/swtor.jpg)
http://en.wiktionary.org/favicon.ico (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=https%3A%2F%2Flh6.googleusercontent.com%2F-hxyOdo8Nwmo%2FTijblQdAg1I%2FAAAAAAAAAhw%2FFQQq7_gNfm0%2Fs800%2Fswtor.jpg&go=Define)https://www.google.com/favicon.ico (http://www.google.com/search?q=https%3A%2F%2Flh6.googleusercontent.com%2F-hxyOdo8Nwmo%2FTijblQdAg1I%2FAAAAAAAAAhw%2FFQQq7_gNfm0%2Fs800%2Fswtor.jpg)https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABQAAAATCAYAAACQjC21AAAAAXNSR0IArs4c6QAAAAZiS0dEAP8A/wD/oL2nkwAAAAlwSFlzAAAIpwAACKcBMsYCAwAAAAd0SU1FB9kFEwgQLXKnj9oAAAPsSURBVDiNdVRZSGRXEH1Joz8icSIMJsEQEvKv ov4ICoOYIAp+KKISkLiAgij5UGOMjgoug6CiKC64i/sSpVHcl7jv7W6722pcWmyNoqBW6hRpyYSZC8W7975bdU+dOrcUIlL+axYWFq+SkpLybWxsYo17VlZWX/H6DebOzs4/ent7/+Lu7v7z/31h7y8U5fvV1VWNra3tIObGvZqamtaHh4fHxMTExb29vcejoyMKCwt7jIqKWuD/bz4Y0MXF5e319bU2JyfngA99x/YJ22empqZuERERKwcHB9Td3U37+/u0srJCc3NzNDIyQk1NTVcqleonPvv6JSCPL87OznQ8p+TkZC2vv2GzcnNz+83a2joqLy9vCQFnZ2dpfX2dlpaWqLe3lzo7O+WStL S0ORMTE7+XgCkpKTX07/Dz86PIyEhDVlaWISMjgxISEmRfp9PRzs4O7e7uEtMi6EZHRyVweHg4gp6bm5tbKK958PlbODES+ZmZmQmkxjsE2d3dHWm1WsrOzq a6ujoaGhqigYEBGh4epvT0dCovLyd7e3sfhR3fGR0vLy9fULa0tMj8/PycNBoNcVGIi0NxcXHU09NDY2Nj1N/fL2mXlZXJJV5eXkXK9va2DojggIDPz8/iuLGxQcvLy8IXEN7c3JBer5f14uKiIOzr66P29naqqqqiiooK8vf3n1aYbP3ExIQcZkkIKgcHBwJ/BoNB1ltbW8IbF466urrk3OTkpFhDQ4MEZA7Jx8fnSGEJ6I2pHh4eyvf2ViglVBbBwBMQb25u0sLCgnAXExMjVLS1tVFJSYmkHRoa +pfCmydwPjk5EYf7+3txwBoVRTFmZmZetFdcXEyBgYGUm5srVa6traWioiIqKCig4ODgVYVJnUE6LGpBhLQQDMjAHeaQzPT0tASG 7iorK0U2kAwC4hIE9PT0HFZYvB7j4+NPQHlxcSGFOD4+Fvnw8xKOUGnwxAWkqakpqSz7CJ/V1dXEmiV+/+To6Pi7CJvFq356ehIHaA2ogPjq6krSRlVbW1ulqoODgyIbyMfX15dKS0spNjYWAf+2tLT8UgLyJAIPHinPz89LFcEXJIJUcdHa2 ppIBAjVajWlpqYSNwcqLCwUdEFBQX9+ysP4llXcSf7gFO6A8PT0lJqbm4UXvB6kBc6QKgz/sAfu8Ers7OzecYxv3+s2PD53dXX9FVUFCiCqr6+njo4OSRMBwSN3FylKfn4+MQgKCAhAC1N9rB+aODk5vWUU5+ARUoHu8CpQ0cbG RjFcxA3kkjtRAft8/dEGazRuRabcZH8ICQkpjo6OVjNHmvj4+GXuiyMeHh453ATCzMzMXn3I9x8oCiuuorpqawAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== (http://api3.smarterfox.com/wikisearch/search?q=https%3A%2F%2Flh6.googleusercontent.com%2F-hxyOdo8Nwmo%2FTijblQdAg1I%2FAAAAAAAAAhw%2FFQQq7_gNfm0%2Fs800%2Fswtor.jpg&locale=en-US)https://www.youtube.com/favicon.ico (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=https%3A%2F%2Flh6.googleusercontent.com%2F-hxyOdo8Nwmo%2FTijblQdAg1I%2FAAAAAAAAAhw%2FFQQq7_gNfm0%2Fs800%2Fswtor.jpg)

Husar

07-22-2011, 09:51

Well, if it's a momorpeger I could see them wanting to limit the amount of initially available copies in order to not exceed their server capacities when the game launches.
Might as well increase the capacities you'd think, but then if a lot of people drop the game after a week or two, they wasted a huge amount of money.
Not sure on this of course but I'd expect a calculation like that, given that EA apparently likes to keep server capacities low and shuts down online services for older games.

johnhughthom

07-22-2011, 09:54

Pre order charge? :inquisitive:

Major Robert Dump

07-22-2011, 10:43

OF the 3 people I know in beta(two online friends one RL friend) all 3 say that they will not play this game.

Star Wars Galaxies it is not, not unless you want to compare it to SWGs later WOW clonage. The story is extremely linear. There is far less sandbox feel than one would imagine. My RL friend, with whom I have dabbled in a dozen MMOs with and whose opinion I trust greatly, says the whole thing really reminds him of the way Daiblo2 was set up online. It's less interaction between people whose actions affect each other, and moreless a bunch of people running simeltaneous quests and missions and other players just happen to be around.

Hardly worth a subscription. I think the last generation of kids to get hooked on SW were introduced and encouraged by their parents because the story inflicted people over a 30 year time period, and capitalized on partent-child bonding. I doubt our current 20 year olds will be doing the same with their kids, because the Star Wars universe has been milked to death, and it has been exposed as an A**.

Major Robert Dump

08-14-2011, 05:54

I didn't see these in the thread yet, but there are very 3 sexy trailers.

CG Acting is so much better than the garbage Lucas produced, I can't imagine why they even use actors anymore. Anyway, these are better than any of the movies: enjoy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMLDCF9B47g&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH-8ggzxNPo&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfNhs6sh3_Q&feature=related

Vladimir

08-15-2011, 17:25

Stopped watching the first one; so much cheese it started to clog my colon.

Major Robert Dump

08-16-2011, 06:10

I just said they were sexy.......The third is probably the best, even though it is full of "star wars-isms" like the cowboy smuggler with the fastest ship ever and the jedi who "senses a great darkness" lol.

The class system in this game looks terrible.

Also, if I can't make my avatar overweight I will not play the game.

Beskar

08-16-2011, 07:07

I watched a trailer which had this "instance/dungeon" and talked about group members randomly choosing decisions, etc.

I can sum it up as "Flaccid Combat" and the party-random choice as "I would never PuG in this game."

Beskar

08-16-2011, 07:17

Oh and Spore, which could be one of the most disappointing games of the past decade, directly because of meddling in the design process (they purposely made everything look childish and ridiculously silly looking in order to capture a wider audience, because scary stuff would drive away customers).

That wasn't what killed Spore, what killed Spore is that they directly meddled to significantly dumb down the game. Gamey/Cartoon style graphics work fine, look at Borderlands or World of Warcraft, not really known for their cutting edge. What killed Spore is they turned a really great game in concept then flushed it in a dirty toliet bowl for a couple of years and thus we got the creation that ended up on our shelves.

Also, the complete lack of autosave really killed the game when it first came up since it randomly crashed every computer within a hour or 2 of play and no one saves every 5 minutes.

econ21

08-16-2011, 14:23

The class system in this game looks terrible.

In what way terrible? I'm disappointed that many of the Sith/Republic classes are mirrors of each other. (A Sith force user should feel different from a Jedi one, as it did in the kotors). But otherwise, it seems wholly conventional MMO fare. I think they need dual specs tho - so healers/tanks can go dps and vice versa.

I watched a trailer which had this "instance/dungeon" and talked about group members randomly choosing decisions, etc.

I can sum it up as "Flaccid Combat" and the party-random choice as "I would never PuG in this game."

I heard that you get light side/dark side points for your decision, even if the high roller makes the opposite decision, so I am not worried about PuGing because of them.

Major Robert Dump

08-17-2011, 11:12

In what way terrible? I'm disappointed that many of the Sith/Republic classes are mirrors of each other. (A Sith force user should feel different from a Jedi one, as it did in the kotors). But otherwise, it seems wholly conventional MMO fare. I think they need dual specs tho - so healers/tanks can go dps and vice versa.

I heard that you get light side/dark side points for your decision, even if the high roller makes the opposite decision, so I am not worried about PuGing because of them.

A Bounty Hunter being the mirror of the Trooper? A Spy being the mirror of a Smuggler?

4 classes, with 2 sub classes per, with specializations within those subclasses. While There appears to be lots of possibilites within the subclasses and specializations, I have a strong feeling that there will be levels, pre-requisites and limitations on said skills. For example, if I wanted to make a pure melee bounty hunter, would I be able to level up only the melee skills or will there be other things attached?

I'm also not a fan of the synergy concept in the way that it is used....for example, you pick a subset skill that reduces the recharge of skills x y and z, i saw a lot of that in the videos, and when games do tht they are just setting you up for future nerfs

There are also a lot of cinematics and cinematic voice acting, which I think MMO players are notorious for not wanting if it is a grind/level based game.

My people in the beta are not impressed. They said they may buy the game eventually, but it's not something they would be serious about or spend money on preorder. That being said, if its not something to seriously play, will it be worth the subscription fee?

I want to like the game I really do. I desperately need to project my dissatisfaction with my personal life by re-taking my throne as a PvP Griefer and was hoping this game would give me such a stage. I was going to make Star Trek Online that stage and it was working well, but then I had to run off to war. When I am done with my adventures, maybe Star Wars will be worthy...