North Korean Missile Launch

[Marshal Murat]

North Korea actually launched a missile this time.

Yahoo (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_nkorea_missile)

SEOUL, South Korea – North Korea defiantly carried out a provocative rocket launch Sunday that the U.S., Japan and other nations suspect was a cover for a test of its long-range missile technology.

Liftoff took place at 11:30 a.m. (0230GMT) Sunday from the coastal Musudan-ri launch pad in northeastern North Korea, the South Korean government said. In Washington, the State Department also confirmed the launch.

Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE53058220090405?sp=true)

SEOUL (Reuters) - North Korea appeared to launch a rocket on Sunday, the Japanese government said, defying calls from world leaders to scrap a plan that has caused international alarm.

Secondary Confirmation (http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-world/nkorea-fires-longrange-rocket-20090405-9szx.html)
North Korea fired a long-range rocket on Sunday, South Korea's presidential office told AFP.

This time the missile launch actually succeeded. So what next? Will the US actually DO something or more talks and talks that end up giving North Korea some rice and sake?

[Xiahou]

This time the missile launch actually succeeded. So what next? Will the US actually DO something or more talks?We'll do nothing. The US and rest of the world is being tested by N.Korea and we'll likely show that we're not capable of anything more than handwringing. :shame:

Let's make John Bolton the chief negotiator over there. :beam:

[Marshal Murat]

That's the worse part about this, is that I'm afraid the US (and China) will realize that they're either going to have to move in a put down NK like a rabid dog or let this rabid dog infect other nations. I don't want this Barbary State-esque blackmail to continue.

[Shaka_Khan]

They say that this rocket could reach Alaska.
This could start an arms race in the Far East.
NK has a lot of potential customers outside of the Far East.
~:eek:

[Samurai Waki]

I'd actually be incredibly relieved if the PLA decided it had taken enough guff and intimidation as well as constantly being embarrassed by it's former wayward lackey and finally cleansed itself of them.

Though somehow, I just don't think that's going to happen. It might be up to RoK/US and possibly some others to give ol' Kim Jong a good kick in the groin.

[Devastatin Dave]

I'm not afraid. Our Dear Leader will protect us from any attack through either harsh teleprompter reading or with his own dazzling chiseled chest and rippling abs.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I'm not afraid. Our Dear Leader will protect us from any attack through either harsh teleprompter reading or with his own dazzling chiseled chest and rippling abs.

Putin has the chest and the sambo. I'm so sorry Dave.

[rasoforos]

Oh my God!!!

N. Korea launched a satellite and the world did not come to an end?!??! :inquisitive:

This cannot be! I had my bunker all ready and stocked up, what will I do with my 3 tons of baked beans now??? :furious3:

Of course, us western nations would never dream of launching satellites because we are the good guys. And if we ever do, we would never ever dream of using missiles, we would just ask a really strong guy to hurl them into the sky. :beam:

Get off the 'double standards' donkey people...

As Jesus said 'Let him who is without satellite launching capabilities cast the first missile interceptor'

[lenin96]

:laugh4:. I agree with the above poster.:yes:

[Fragony]

Get off the 'double standards' donkey people...

So we are really to be compared to North-Korea because we have rockets? Nice opinion, would be a shame if something happened to it.

[Furunculus]

Oh my God!!!

N. Korea launched a satellite and the world did not come to an end?!??! :inquisitive:

This cannot be! I had my bunker all ready and stocked up, what will I do with my 3 tons of baked beans now??? :furious3:

Of course, us western nations would never dream of launching satellites because we are the good guys. And if we ever do, we would never ever dream of using missiles, we would just ask a really strong guy to hurl them into the sky. :beam:

Get off the 'double standards' donkey people...

As Jesus said 'Let him who is without satellite launching capabilities cast the first missile interceptor'

double standards are fine with me.

Satellite broadcasting revolutionary songs about dear ol' Kim:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/5108667/North-Korean-satellite-is-transmitting-revolutionary-songs.html

The man is a joke, his regime is a joke, the whole pustulent edifice survives by donations from koreans in japan and blackmailing S korea into supplying vast ammounts of food aid.

I do not trust them to own ballistic missiles and nuclear weapons, and i am happy to see them leaned on as much as is necessary to see that it doesn't happen, even if that means jumping up and down on the bloody corpse of the regime.

[Fragony]

Oh lollipop FAIL

[naut]

They say that this rocket could reach Alaska.
Which is were all the US's anti-missile defences are. ~:wacko:

[Shaka_Khan]

^ That would be a good chance to test the anti-missile defence if the missile goes near there.


A cash/food starved North Korea will be very tempted to sell their missiles/rockets. There are plenty of dangerous customers out there.
But countries who were against the launch will just penalize and then go back to normal. North Korea launched a satellite, which is legal. The US, South Korea, and Japan have no diplomatic relations with NK.

- China will protect NK because NK is China's important ally and a buffer zone against the US.

- The US is too busy and bogged down in Afghanistan and Iraq. Their Korean and Japanese allies are not too eager to kill NK civilians and fight a war right at their doorstep.

- In the case of the South Koreans, the war could take place in their own country. Also, the South is already in the range of NK artilleries and various missiles. Today's rocket launch doesn't change South Korea's situation much.

- Most Japanese don't want to go back to the imperial era. Plus, they don't wan't to provoke China into an arms race.

- North Korea will continue to blackmail because of their terrible economy. They need cash. The launch of their long-range missile raised their leverage in negotiations. North Korea won't open up while Kim's regime is in control. Kim is afraid that opening up will encourage the NKs to overthrow him. Unlike China, the North has a powerful and wealthy neighbor of the same language. NKs will gladly switch sides once they find out the reality of the world.

Eventually, North will get to a point where the other countries can't avoid the situation. NK might even launch a nuke to test in the Pacific.

[FactionHeir]

Epic fail:
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5341FP20090405

[Fragony]

Epic fail:
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5341FP20090405

See? I am always right, now how did I know


Oh lollipop FAIL

[tibilicus]

I know I'm an object of criticism in the world but if I am being talked about, I must be doing the right things.


Kim Jong-il


:inquisitive:

[Dutch_guy]

Nice timing though, just as most people are considering their leader dead (when was the last time we saw an actual picture of the guy - let alone an appearence?), they try to launch a rocket.

Nk is just trying to get out attention again, we should keep on ignoring it and let it destroy itself. It has shown quite the talent for this the past 50 years.

:balloon2:

[Aemilius Paulus]

I'm not afraid. Our Dear Leader will protect us from any attack through either harsh teleprompter reading or with his own dazzling chiseled chest and rippling abs.
I am a Backroom n00b I suppose. Seems like other people know what DD is speaking of. Who is the person DD mentioned?

But yes, Putin is a judo and sambo black belt-er. And he does have an amazingly ripped body considering he is 56 years old:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/picture.php?albumid=107&pictureid=608

[Ice]

Epic fail:
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5341FP20090405

North Korean Technology is prone to failure? No way....

:clown:

[Furunculus]

I am a Backroom n00b I suppose. Seems like other people know what DD is speaking of. Who is the person DD mentioned?



i believe he is referring to saint obama.

[Devastatin Dave]

I am a Backroom n00b I suppose. Seems like other people know what DD is speaking of. Who is the person DD mentioned?


https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/picture.php?albumid=107&pictureid=608

He goes by many name; The One, The Messiah, TOTUS, He is the Change, He is the Hope, He is the one that make us say "Yes we can" (stolen from Bob the Builder), when He speaks He makes the legs tingle and the capitalists despair.

[Gregoshi]

He is the one that make us say "Yes we can" (stolen from Bob the Builder)...
Which was pretty much stolen from the Little Engine That Could.

[Pannonian]

He goes by many name; The One, The Messiah, TOTUS, He is the Change, He is the Hope, He is the one that make us say "Yes we can" (stolen from Bob the Builder), when He speaks He makes the legs tingle and the capitalists despair.
You'll enjoy this (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/03/g20-barack-obama-nick-robinson-question).

[KarlXII]

To rasoforos:

World politics isn't about equality and what's fair, it's about one nation having an advantage over another nation for it's own interests. Naturally, this missle luanch was completely against US interests, regardless of our own missle testing.

Oh, and yeah, Kim Jong Fail forgot about the last missle they launched which.....fell into the sea....

[Samurai Waki]

I'm beginning to believe that NK's missile technology is designed more on the physics of a shotgun shell, and less on the physics of a bullet.

"Well if we fire a million of these things, at least one of em' has to hit something."

[Shaka_Khan]

Epic fail:
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5341FP20090405
Carry on.

[Xiahou]

Epic fail:
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5341FP20090405
That's really the best possible outcome. Had it been a success, we would have done nothing and the DPRK would have black market buyers lining up for their missile technology.
A failure might at least put off the inevitable a few more years. We'll still probably do nothing, but at least we save a little face since the missile didn't work right. :sweatdrop:

Edit:
Oh look! (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090406/wl_nm/us_korea_north)
The United Nations failed to agree on a response to North Korea's long-range rocket launch despite pressure from Washington and its allies for action, while regional powers weighed the extent of the new security threat.To quote one of my favorite ambassadors: "The Secretariat Building in New York has 38 stories. If you lost ten stories today, it wouldn't make a bit of difference." :yes:

[Beefy187]

Treating poor people equally is humane thing

But North Korea isn't just a poor country but they are an country ran by a mad dictator.

Not only they have kidnapped people from various countries like Japan, Korea and even America, they were also responsible for blowing up airplanes, and blackmailing like 'hey Japan. If you shoot this "satelite" we will have to attack you"

They also tried to make Nukes.

If USA doesn't make a move, then Asia will be left with South Korea, Taiwan and Japan (who doesn't even have a significant force) against North Korea and China along with maybe bit of Russia.

North Korea has to go ASAP.

If not, we'll just have to keep our fingers crossed that they don't do anything stupid in the next few years and the next heir is someone decent.

[Kralizec]

This may sound terrible to some, but I sincerely hope that North Korea completely collapses after Kim Jong Ill bites the dust. Every other country in the region would be better off.

[Prince Cobra]

As long as China supports North Korea, negotiations and conpromise is the only possible solution.

[Vuk]

I honestly think that if we tried to really take action now, it would mean WWIII. At the same time, I think that if we don't, WWIII will come soon anyway, and we will be in a much worse position. As horrible as it may sound, better now than later... A war would fix the economy at least. If it comes in 4 years we will be in much worse position to fight it.

[Prince Cobra]

I honestly think that if we tried to really take action now, it would mean WWIII. At the same time, I think that if we don't, WWIII will come soon anyway, and we will be in a much worse position. As horrible as it may sound, better now than later... A war would fix the economy at least. If it comes in 4 years we will be in much worse position to fight it.

First, this war is not to fix anything but destroy the world + don't underestimate the Chinese politicians. They will never allow North Korea to grow too strong and this only few miles from their capital. :bow:

[Vuk]

That is fine, but war is inevitable. As JC Denton said "Conflicts are the results of differences of opinion. Some times the biggest differences in opinion can only be settled by the larges conflicts." (or something along those lines)
There is a hatefull and agressive ideology with a violent and motivated government in China and Russia. They will do whatever it takes to make their ideology win, but they will do it on their own terms and when we are weakest. Of course if we attacked them, then we would be the bad guys ourselves and lose our innocents, so I am not saying it is a good idea. I am just saying that it is inevitable, and there will be a war between Japan, US, some of Europe; and Russia, China, and NK. As Benjiman Franklin said, "A historian is a Prophet in reverse." If history is to be relied on (and it has nto failed yet), then there will be a WWIII, and it will be soon. If you have two powerful, unrelenting sides, it is bound to happen. Neither side will give in, so the only thing that can happen is one will conquer the other. I am not saying that I agree with it (I think that an ideal world would have no war what so ever), but I am afraid that that is the way it is, and that it will happen soon.

[Mooks]

What reason does China have in supporting NK?

[Furunculus]

its a useful geo-political lever to be used in strategic negotiations with the US.

[Vuk]

What reason does China have in supporting NK?

Are you serious? NK is just a pawn and creation of China.

[Vladimir]

What reason does China have in supporting NK?

Even if they don't have a reason they do have influence which is itself a reason.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Are you serious? NK is just a pawn and creation of China.

No, it was a creation of Soviet Russia following their 1945 invasion of the region. The PRC and the Soviet Union were buddy-buddy during the early years and the Korean conflict of 1950-1953, so China also played a role and exerted influence, but CCCp influence predominated early on. However, the PRC took a million casualties in that conflict with little gain to show for it. It is hard to say what their feelings are towards the regime in the North.

Given the eventual dissolution of the USSR, its obvious that the PRC retains more influence in NK than anyone else, howver the extent of that influence and China's goals in the region are harder to determine.

[Vuk]

No, it was a creation of Soviet Russia following their 1945 invasion of the region. The PRC and the Soviet Union were buddy-buddy during the early years and the Korean conflict of 1950-1953, so China also played a role and exerted influence, but CCCp influence predominated early on. However, the PRC took a million casualties in that conflict with little gain to show for it. It is hard to say what their feelings are towards the regime in the North.

Given the eventual dissolution of the USSR, its obvious that the PRC retains more influence in NK than anyone else, howver the extent of that influence and China's goals in the region are harder to determine.

I am aware of the history concerning NK's origins, but I was referring to its current political ideology and direction as a creation of China. Sorry if I was not clear. :bow:

[Prince Cobra]

I simply think this is the China backyard. It is too close to Bei-jing, the Chinese capital and two Koreans are better than one. The ideology is only part of this aspect.

[seireikhaan]

This may sound terrible to some, but I sincerely hope that North Korea completely collapses after Kim Jong Ill bites the dust. Every other country in the region would be better off.
I fail to see how this would be terrible. The North Korean government is starving its people on grassfeed, while maintaining autocratic rule through a military machine. There is only gain to be had by *nearly* everyone if the NK regime fell apart. Even if the conflict became bloody, it would be better than the alternative in the long run.

[rasoforos]

Shinseikhaan the truth has two sides sometimes.

Let's all wonder why NK needs to divert so many funds to maintaining such a large army...

...perhaps if we convince our governments to stop screaming rape every time NK does something then we can achieve mutual understanding and demilitarisation. 'They' are not honest with us but 'we' also are not honest with them at the moment, trying to criminalise their every activity.

A bloody outcome will not solve problems. In Iraq Shadham was removed and what did we get? A thousand little battle hardened 'warlords' waiting to take his place the moment the US soldiers go home.

[Marshal Murat]

Let's all wonder why NK needs to divert so many funds to maintaining such a large army...

...perhaps if we convince our governments to stop screaming rape every time NK does something then we can achieve mutual understanding and demilitarisation. 'They' are not honest with us but 'we' also are not honest with them at the moment, trying to criminalise their every activity.


See, I thought North Korea diverted so many funds to it's military so that it could suppress any revolts and prevent South Korea from replacing the corrupt and destructive North Korean government with one that actually cares about it's people and giving them food, water, and basic care.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Let's all wonder why NK needs to divert so many funds to maintaining such a large army...

...perhaps if we convince our governments to stop screaming rape every time NK does something then we can achieve mutual understanding and demilitarisation. 'They' are not honest with us but 'we' also are not honest with them at the moment, trying to criminalise their every activity.

A bloody outcome will not solve problems. In Iraq Shadham was removed and what did we get? A thousand little battle hardened 'warlords' waiting to take his place the moment the US soldiers go home.

Unbelievable...

[a completely inoffensive name]

Unbelievable...

I know right...what kind of wimp actually thinks talking honestly and treating them with respect will bring progress? If someone is angry at us, we need to bomb them into the stone age so that the anger doesn't spread like a disease.

[Marshal Murat]

I know right...what kind of wimp actually thinks talking honestly and treating them with respect will bring progress? If someone is angry at us, we need to bomb them into the stone age so that the anger doesn't spread like a disease.
I thought the North Koreans were angry because they failed to take South Korea, can't take South Korea, and were imprisoned within their own country because they belligerently invaded South Korea rather than sitting down for talks.

[Vuk]

NK is the product of violent and inhumane warfare, hardly a peaceful place. They are the spawn of violence and they are thouroughly bent on violence. Here is a novel idea, in the name of peace and fairness, why don't they give back the land they stole? Why don't they stop being oppresive dictators and free their people? If they did, then you would have peace.

[Megas Methuselah]

Shinseikhaan the truth has two sides sometimes.

Let's all wonder why NK needs to divert so many funds to maintaining such a large army...

...perhaps if we convince our governments to stop screaming rape every time NK does something then we can achieve mutual understanding and demilitarisation. 'They' are not honest with us but 'we' also are not honest with them at the moment, trying to criminalise their every activity.

A bloody outcome will not solve problems. In Iraq Shadham was removed and what did we get? A thousand little battle hardened 'warlords' waiting to take his place the moment the US soldiers go home.

... Ugh. This is Kim Jong-Il we're talking about, a modern Caligula of sorts. We can hope things get better when he dies, but if we're talking about military action here, it better be done before that madman gets his hands on reliable nuclear weapons.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I know right...what kind of wimp actually thinks talking honestly and treating them with respect will bring progress? If someone is angry at us, we need to bomb them into the stone age so that the anger doesn't spread like a disease.

Here is your answer:


NK is the product of violent and inhumane warfare, hardly a peaceful place. They are the spawn of violence and they are thouroughly bent on violence. Here is a novel idea, in the name of peace and fairness, why don't they give back the land they stole? Why don't they stop being oppresive dictators and free their people? If they did, then you would have peace.


Why should we treat North Korea with any kind of respect? It is quite possibly the most despicable regime on the planet at this point in time. The fact that individuals here in the West look at North Korea and say "oh, they must be angry because we slighted them somehow" completely astounds me. How ingrained does your self-hatred/anti-Americanism/anti-Westernism/whatever have to be to do that?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Here is your answer:




Why should we treat North Korea with any kind of respect? It is quite possibly the most despicable regime on the planet at this point in time. The fact that individuals here in the West look at North Korea and say "oh, they must be angry because we slighted them somehow" completely astounds me. How ingrained does your self-hatred/anti-Americanism/anti-Westernism/whatever have to be to do that?

Funny some of the biggest conservatives are the first to go: HOW DARE YOU QUESTION AMERICAS POLICY! THEY ARE EVIL AND YOU HATE AMERICA IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT US!

Just face it, America has long acted as the world's police, and now we have a stubborn teenager and your solution is to beat the hell out of him. I love America, I don't love American policy. Learn the difference or you have no place to talk about anything.

America's strength always from the very beginning was to be the shining example that all others wanted to copy not the one to bring democracy and peace at the barrel of a gun.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Funny some of the biggest conservatives are the first to go: HOW DARE YOU QUESTION AMERICAS POLICY! THEY ARE EVIL AND YOU HATE AMERICA IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT US!

How this relates, I have no idea.


Just face it, America has long acted as the world's police, and now we have a stubborn teenager and your solution is to beat the hell out of him.

So we'll just let Kim continue oppressing his people! OK. Continuing your analogy, let's say you're the parent. You have a teenager who owns a puppy, who he continually abuses. Do you remove the teenager from the position of authority over the puppy, or get a puppy yourself and treat it nicely and hope the teenager copies you?

Removing the puppy seems like the wisest choice.


I love America, I don't love American policy. Learn the difference or you have no place to talk about anything.

The difference between being critical of America and being critical of American policy is that anti-Americans will criticize regardless of what the policy is.

[a completely inoffensive name]

...

[Megas Methuselah]

So how should Kim Jong-Il be dealt with, then? If we leave him be, he'll probably blow up Seoul and invade the rest of South Korea...

[LittleGrizzly]

It depends on just how crazy Kim is...

One view could be that hes not completely insane and he realises an invasion of south korea would be suicidal to his regime and that is why he hasn't carried it out yet...

Another view could be that he's waiting until he develops some big weapons before he launches the invasion...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

How this relates, I have no idea.

Your quote doesn't really help much...


Here's the problem though, people in North Korea are possibly brainwashed to believe Kim is a god from when they are children. Do you honestly think, sending troops in there, blowing :daisy: up and destroying their government will have the possibly brainwashed citizens happy with us?

Not immediately, but they will come to realize it eventually. Really, I think the ones that are starving or being abused by their government will probably not put up much of a resistance to western forces.


It is not our job to do anything.

Left cares about human rights. Left refuses to intervene where human rights need to be defended.

~;)


If the citizens want help, then we can help them otherwise we are no better then Kim, just richer and more powerful.

It would be hard to be no better than Kim. Going there and fighting a war to free the North Koreans and to eliminate a rogue power in the region makes us no better than the man who oppresses his people? I beg that you reconsider your choice of words.


The thing is though, is that policy has not changed one bit for decades now.

A topic for another thread. :bow:

[Sarmatian]

It depends on just how crazy Kim is...

One view could be that hes not completely insane and he realises an invasion of south korea would be suicidal to his regime and that is why he hasn't carried it out yet...

Another view could be that he's waiting until he develops some big weapons before he launches the invasion...

Whatever big weapons he acquire, he couldn't possibly defend from reprisal attack. I don't think he's crazy enough to commit suicide and destroy his country, just because he wants to invade South Korea...

How to deal with him? Like with any dictator and dictatorship - diplomacy and pressure, stick and carrot. Unless North Korea starts attacking around, there's no authority to go there guns blazing. If it's about bringing down dictatorship, well, then North Korea is just one on a decent sized list...

[Jolt]

Many people talk about "When Kim dies, things will improve". Is he ever gonna even die? Probably the day Obama dies of old age, Dear Leader continues healthy, up and running, and still in control of North Korea.