Free Speech - Some people just don't like it [Archive]

Konig Prasatko

04-15-2009, 02:07

SpiritFox

04-15-2009, 02:52

You're free to voice your hatred of the game. We're free to tell you to shut up about it.

Konig Prasatko

04-15-2009, 02:57

I don't hate the game!

1st cult member identified!:dizzy2:

lenin96

04-15-2009, 03:13

This forum is for people who are fans of the Total War series and respect CA for their work.

A Very Super Market

04-15-2009, 03:17

Flaming the game is useless and serves no more purpose than to dishearten CA and piss off supporters. There have been many constructive criticism threads that have been well received.

Veho Nex

04-15-2009, 03:17

This thread makes me lol. But there isn't a cult here that feverishly defends CA and their work, just some people who prefer to look at the glass half full and not half empty

Dayve

04-15-2009, 03:34

It's a forum for fans of Total War who have the right to voice their like or dislike about the game, and i don't think people should be allowed to flame that person for voicing their dislike. Example:

I say: I find it ridiculous that the game shipped with such horrendous bugs as soldiers turning to face the wrong way mid-battle, or entire units not being able to engage in combat because 1 soldier is stuck trying to climb over a fence. These kinds of bugs should never have made it through testing, and make me wonder if the game was even tested at all.

That's a pretty harsh criticism, but a true one and a constructive one. You can do two things. You can build on it or start an argument.

An appropriate response might be: Yes it's true that this game should never have shipped with such horrible bugs, but we have to remember that CA have deadlines to meet and they were forced to rush the game forward before it was entirely polished. However, I'm sure these bugs will be fixed in the future.

You can then build on that even more by suggesting ways to fix whatever bug is being complained about.

Here is an example of an in-appropriate response that will turn the thread into a flame fest which will eventually be locked:

So? Nobody forced you to buy the game, sell it on eBay and stfu.

I would imagine, due to the nature of Total War games, that all members of this forum (not others, this one in particular because it is the most mature and pleasant of all TW forums, even moreso than the official ones) are adults over the age of 20, or if younger then are very intelligent and advanced for their age, so it's quite sickening (perhaps too strong a word) to see some of the things that are said in threads that are complaining about bugs.

Nobody should be free here to voice their hatred of the game, because it can lead nowhere except to arguments, locks or bans, and nobody should be free to tell anybody to shut up about anything, because two wrongs aren't making a right, they're making even more trouble.

There is nothing in the rules to state that somebody who has purchased this game cannot come in here and complain about a list of bugs as long as Andre the Giants arm, as long as it is done in the proper way and isn't likely to create a thick atmosphere and lead to arguments. It's perfectly fine to complain, we bought a product of questionable quality, it is our right to complain.

There are rules AGAINST telling somebody to shut up about it, however. Telling somebody to shut up about it, deal with it, live with it or other such comments are rude and offensive and likely to stir up trouble, which is the definition of trolling, which is against the rules on any respectable forum on the internet.

I'm 20 years old and i'll bet most of you here are twice my age, so it's astounding that somebody as young as me has to say this in the manner of a teacher chastising a naughty schoolchild.

Konig Prasatko

04-15-2009, 04:58

This forum is for people who are fans of the Total War series and respect CA for their work.

Yes comrade, I am also a fan of the TW series and I respect CA for their work.

I also respect the members of this forum and their right to express their opinion good or bad without being shouted down by intolerant people who defend CA like some kind of religion.

I'm not saying we should agree with negative comments just that people shouldn't be attacked for sharing them.

antisocialmunky

04-15-2009, 05:17

There's a difference between valid criticism and some of the complaints that get posted. I think you're the one who should dig up evidence of your claim that TW forumites shut down all criticism since you're making the charge. As of yet, you haven't and just look like some sort of troll.

Most of the threads here are critical and justified, just look:
-The Switzerland Thread
-The (Tons) of Bug Threads
-The Bad AI Threads

Heck, even this thread isn't being shot down yet.

nafod

04-15-2009, 05:31

This forum is for people who are fans of the Total War series and respect CA for their work.

I don't know if respecting CA is necessarily a requirement of being a TW fan. I mean I really can't say I respect CA. As it is a consumer/supplier relationship I really don't feal respect is a necessary qualifier for enjoying their product. I mean I did pay for Rome, M2TW and ETW.

I respect CA no more than I respect Acura, and they made a fine automobile I drive.

I do think some of the critics take an approach that's a bit over the top, but I usually find fans in those threads making some very condescending statements.

Smellycat

04-15-2009, 06:48

I have been told off by numerous mods/senior members (ooo senior) in private messages or in threads here to show respect to CA Lusted or other members, looking through my posts i see no reason for it in the meantime people have been calling me all sorts of crap. As the OP said it is a small club but also an ever dwindling club I mean all the serious mods apart from EB are at TWC now (and the Org is lot smaller than it was for some unknown reason), the people left here: enjoy swimming in a waterhole that is rapidly drying out in the sun. I am out of here. Thank you OP for putting it into perspective and goodbye.

https://img12.imageshack.us/my.php?image=atpg.jpg

Incongruous

04-15-2009, 09:43

Turbosatan

04-15-2009, 10:20

Gosh this is hilarious.... Every single day I log on here because I enjoy the game (what I can play of it -- however being a reasonably intelligent adult I expected rather less than I got when I bought it) & would like to continue my short-lived tradition of interacting with like-minded fellows to discuss & discover more about an experience I enjoy.

Every single day I am presented with sweeping statements about how it's shattered beyond repair, isn't any fun at all, doesn't work in the slightest, doesn't even turn on, isn't playable in any instance, iteration or form. Every single day. All expressed in the most petulant, cringeworthy, narcissistic tone imaginable, like listening to the complaints of a severely autistic twelve year old whose social worker has popped out for the day. What's best are the comments of those who haven't even played the Goddamn game, chipping in with their tuppeny-penn'worth of bile-flecked "wisdom".

But I've lost a whole month of my life to this game. I've played up to 1792 with Prussia, to 1739 with Russia (lost) & even my bloody girlfriend has started a Swedish campaign & played until 1725. I've played for hours online & been thrashed repeatedly. I've constructed grand armies, raized capitals, ground Poland into the dirt on three separate occasions. Yes, the AI doesn't invade via the water. So I played a landlocked faction. Yes, it can be a bit wooly in its decisions as to how to wage war; so I pretend I am a genuine 18th century commander & act (as in real life) like major engagements are rare & a policy of careful manouevre is key to entice enemy armies away from their jealously guarded storage depots & magazines.

& before anyone starts, I care little for any product per se -- what you own, children, does not define you, if you believe that anything does then you're pretty bloody sad -- my comments & contributions (& I assume those of others doing exactly what the OP is moaning about) are merely trying to add some balance & contribute constructively to a community I (used to) enjoy being a small part of, that I am finding a chore to use simply because some members seem to think that their particular grievances allow them to ignore any kind of etiquette or societal constraint.

I know it's not as bad here as some other forums (cough shogun.yuku cough; cough twcenter.l33t.speakcough-cough) but I'm sure some other guys here are as utterly sick as I am of listening to people whine bitch & moan about either the same things which four thousand other people have already said or (& I'm beginning to get suss about this) a veiled tirade thinly disguising their own ineptitude setting up a PC or (& I'm getting even more suss about this) their unfortunate choices in owning incompatible hardware for this particular game, all delivered in the aforementioned spoiled child voice that is just so endearing.

{breathes deeply, counts to ten}

There.

Now, what was this thread about again?

pevergreen

04-15-2009, 10:22

I am a fan of CA because of the games they have released.

You have your viewpoint, others have theirs.

Mine is that the game is finished, and will be improved to how it should be at 100% in time.

A book I read gave a good point about this, it doesnt directly relate, but I think it still applies.

One group of people dream of the impossible, then try to find a way to make it happen, while others think of what they can actually do, then try to make it pretty. Put them together, and you get a better product.

Andres

04-15-2009, 10:53

I have been watching the threads on this forum for many years and more so with the release of ETW.
As we all know the game shipped with considerable problems that hopefully will be fixed in the coming months.

What I find disturbing is that as people have expressed themselves either with frustration or elation about aspects of the game there seems to be a little group (possibly cult) of members who see it as their duty to shut down any criticism of the product (yes it is a product after all) or those who made it.

If people want to write about a bug or a problem or comment on their frustration with CA or SEGA let them do it! Provide a counter argument if you wish but why do you see the need to complain about them or deride them for expressing themselves.

I can tell after reading the first post of a thread whether it is for or against the game so if the defenders of CA/SEGA hate to see any criticism why do you continue to read negative threads? Why do you have such a low tolerance for opinions other than your own?

If people want to praise or bag this game let them do it without criticising their right to do so!
The way some people have been behaving I'm suprised I haven't seen a "leave Brittany alone" video on youtube just replacing Brittany with CA or Sega!

Well, this is a fansite after all, so it shouldn't be a surprise that members disagree with people who don't like the game or complain about bugs.

However, that doesn't mean you are not allowed to voice your opinion if you are not satisfied with the product. In fact, if you encounter a bug or a balance issue or whatnot, it's probably a very good idea to post about it on the Org or one of the other fansites. CA does read our forums, as they do read the official .com fora and the fora over at the TWC and if the complaint is justified, they tend to adress it in a patch.

I agree with you that "fanboyism" is as bad as constantly posting on a fansite about how much one dislikes the game. In fact, seeing the problems and mentioning them will make the game or at least future installments better. Criticism is a good thing.

As long as it stays constructive and civilised, the Org does tolerate criticism.

If you feel that a particular thread got closed without a clear or proper justification, then you are always free to pm one of the local moderators about it. Staff members are more than happy to get some feedback from the membership and are willing to review a decision if there are good reasons to do so. You can also pm the Forum Administrator about it, if you can't come to an agreement with the local moderator team.

If the pm exchange doesn't satisfy you or you have a feeling that the problem is not just one thread but more a general problem, then by all means, feel free to open a thread in the Watchtower (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=26) to discuss the issue.

Welcome at the Org, btw ~:wave:

Daveybaby

04-15-2009, 11:13

@Turbosatan: Spot on assessment. The game has a large number of serious bugs, but that doesnt mean that i want to read a bunch of self-righteous tantrum throwing in every thread.

Daveybaby

04-15-2009, 11:53

If people want to praise or bag this game let them do it without criticising their right to do so!

It's a forum for fans of Total War who have the right to voice their like or dislike about the game

I also respect the members of this forum and their right to express their opinion good or bad without being shouted down by intolerant people who defend CA like some kind of religion.

Which rights are these exactly?

johnhughthom

04-15-2009, 11:59

That's a pretty harsh criticism, but a true one.

Personally it's comments like that I find annoying, people are perfectly free to express their disappointment or annoyance, but it doesn't make your opinion fact.

Dead Guy

04-15-2009, 11:59

Being a fan doesn't stop you from getting disappointed in a game.

I love this series, I have been playing it for years, not even on and off, but all the time. I practically always have a campaign going in one of the games, and though I play other games I play total war several times a week.

Despite that, I have strong critisism about ETW, and M2, and RTW. I have strong critisism because these games are the best battle simulators available to an old warhammer player (or anyone else who likes wargames where tactics matter and not the number of tanks), and I want them to keep being bloody good! The point is, we rant because we love the game and we hate to see it drop in quality. Sometimes it may go too far and out of line, that I won't argue with or defend in the slightest.

How one can argue that reading critisism decreases their gaming or forum experience is frankly beyond me. Don't you come to a discussion board to talk to other people?

Discussing the shortcomings of a game is just as much a discussion among fans as praising it is. Or are you really saying fans don't dislike the bugs or shoddy AI?

Being condescending isn't exactly endearing either.

mmk

04-15-2009, 13:37

I must say that I am utterly sorry if the "...I don´t like to play the game" thread I started did offend people on here. That was not my intention.
I just felt I had to vent my frustration with the new game as I am a longtime fan of TW games and Medieval I + II and Rome are the best games I have played and I was not expecting ETW to turn into something "unplayable".

I did not mean to cause any harm or bad feelings.

I do think, though, that since I have a machine that should (in theory) be perfectly able to handle the game at max. settings and since I have followed all the usual advice and precautions (clear installetion, driver updates etc.) I am in a position where I can rightfully blame the multitude of CTDs etc I am experiencing in gameplay on the game and not on myself or the shortcomings of the technical equipement I am using.

Furthermore I am not expecting to receive a game without faults. That is, I am not too picky and what I would call "minor shortcomings" (soldiers facing the wrong direction etc) would not tempt me to rave about the game on here.
I am very picky, though, when in 1 out of 2 campaign plays I start a CTD crashes the campaign.

One thing I would like to add: I enjoyed reading this forum for years (and I still do) and I always found valuable help and advice on here. For that I am very grateful.

Since I know that there are a lot of experts on here, maybe you could answer one more question from my side. Since I am not an expert, I came to the following conclusion: As I never experience any CTDs when in battle mode (no matter what settings) but all the CTDs happen in campaign mode (in 9 out of 10 cases when it´s the ai´s turn) I suspect that the problem is not graphic card/ driver related, since there isn´t too much going on graphic wise in compaign mode, right? Or wrong?

Andres

04-15-2009, 13:44

Apologising when no apology is needed is truly honorable, mmk :bow:

I'm not an expert either, but my non educated guess would be that the CTD's you're experiencing are not graphic card related.

Did you already post about this in the Apothecary (our tech issues subforum)?

mmk

04-15-2009, 13:52

Did you already post about this in the Apothecary (our tech issues subforum)?

I added some of my observations to the "Post Your ETW Bugs Here!" thread, if that is what you are referring to, Andres.

lenin96

04-15-2009, 13:54

CA deserves most of the flack they get, ETW is an unfinished or broken product and should not have been released, I personally feel that CA has taken my money in bad faith and I want them to make a general apology for the state of the game. I feel that this is justified by the fact that they did not tell us about seeminbgly obvious broken mechanics within the game, such as naval invasions.

People who defend CA on points like these are not helpfull, the idea is to be a fan of a game not a games company, if CA release bad product they should be had up about it, not defended.

There is a difference between constructive criticism (good/needed), and CA bashing (wrong/unjustified). What I am quoting above is CA bashing. If you bash CA and give such unhelpful criticisms then this is not the right forum for you, this is a fansite. If you want to bash CA then you are ruining the community here. Be thankful that CA makes these games, if you don't like CA's games then why are you here? So you could rant and bash CA? And don't say that you want to tell CA that the game is unfinished or "broken" or "uncomplete" or any other crap because it's not helpful or constructive.

Didz

04-15-2009, 13:58

The only comment I would make is 'whats the point?'. I see these rant threads associated with just about every game I play e.g. WAR, WFRP, TW etc. Does anyone who can do anything ever take any notice?

I just feel its a waste of effort, I still do it but largely as a futile gesture to placate my own dissapointment, but it really doesn't achieve much unless by happy chance you discover your wrong the game actually does work, if you play it right.:laugh4:

Oh! and I agree Lenin96 (above) Constructive Criticism should not cause offence, mindless ranting merely makes the poster look like an idiot.

Andres

04-15-2009, 14:03

I added some of my observations to the "Post Your ETW Bugs Here!" thread, if that is what you are referring to, Andres.

No, I was talking about the Apothecary (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=15).

But if it's really a bug, then there's probably not much they can help you with over there.

mmk

04-15-2009, 14:12

No, I was talking about the Apothecary (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=15).

But if it's really a bug, then there's probably not much they can help you with over there.
Oh, thank you very much!

Yeah, after reading through the topics, it seems that it is the game indeed. *Sigh*

al Roumi

04-15-2009, 14:24

Didz is right -assuming one CAN play the game (i've had a couple of campaigns that i've had to abort due to recurring CTDs & crashes), there is still enough to enjoy. That, I suspect is what keeps people on this forum -as well as the desire to check on whether a patch has been released yet.

If the game were truly un-playable or utterly boring, then people really would just drop it and bugger off (maybe after a little troll spree ok...). However, in my opinion there's enough here to keep me occupied, but unfortunately it's bugged and not up the pre-release expectations that CA fed.

Now, clearly, every developer and publisher big up their product -and maybe with too much artistic license. But also, fans lap it up and get carried away with their expectations. That same expectation and excitment is what is (rather cynicaly) exploited by such marketing tricks as "premium" products -like the Special forces edition.

The juxtaposition of run of the mill release day disapointment, a product rife with bugs (arguably expectable) and a new (IMO rather exploitative) marketing and release strategy (steam, special forces...) is what has caused dissatisfaction.

To expect such things as an apology from CA (before they fix the problems!) is I'm afraid deluded. In all honesty, all I want to know is that the game will be fixed and improved by the promised patches and extra content (I'm not sure I'd pay money for such content yet though, not at this rate anyway!).

That CA are now keeping us informed of progress through their mouth-piece mr Lusted (who I understand was a celebrated modder -poor guy to be on the other end of the stick now!) is encouraging and to be honest, I'm hard pushed to see what else they could feasibly do. I have sincere hope that CA have by now made their mistakes and that we've been through the nadir and things are going to get better.

Incongruous

04-16-2009, 01:04

There is a difference between constructive criticism (good/needed), and CA bashing (wrong/unjustified). What I am quoting above is CA bashing. If you bash CA and give such unhelpful criticisms then this is not the right forum for you, this is a fansite. If you want to bash CA then you are ruining the community here. Be thankful that CA makes these games, if you don't like CA's games then why are you here? So you could rant and bash CA? And don't say that you want to tell CA that the game is unfinished or "broken" or "uncomplete" or any other crap because it's not helpful or constructive.

Well, everyman to his own, but I feel that constant CTD dues to ememry leak and the lack of naval invasions to be fairly major mechanism breaks within the game.
You seem to show a rather poor ability to read posts properly, where did I say I do not like CA's games? I have been around here longer than one whom simply wished to bash a game developer,:inquisitive:

Konig Prasatko

04-16-2009, 01:31

It has been interesting reading the responses to my OP. I think it is true that this is a fan forum. I always thought it was for fans of the TW series not neccesarily the coy that developed it.

I understand people showing respect for CA and what they have produced over the years and I share this respect. I think there is a distinction however between being a fan and a fanatic and my comments in the OP were addressed to what I beleive are a small group of fanatics who cannot tolerate any criticisim of CA or ETW. They show their intolerance by attacking the member expressing their opinion and usually urge them to go away, return the game, stop playing ETW etc all pretty childish stuff. I wonder why they cannot simply stop reading negative posts and just enjoy the other threads on this forum.

From what I have read CA are doing a good job of putting their position forward about the problems encountered with ETW. They themselves don't seem to have taken on the attitude of some of their fans and seem quite reasonable about fixing the faults.

So I think the point has been made. Most members are mature and objective. I don't expect the minority to change but it would be nice if we all played the ball and not the man!

lenin96

04-16-2009, 02:48

You seem to show a rather poor ability to read posts properly, where did I say I do not like CA's games? I have been around here longer than one whom simply wished to bash a game developer,:inquisitive:

I might have gone over the top, but most of what I said was not directed at you but the general people who complain.

Beskar

04-16-2009, 05:13

What people have failed up, you say there is a cult of people feverishing defending it, but you are forgetting why they might tell some people to be quiet. It isn't because they got a critical concern, or any constructive posts, but it is because they make posts like this.

I will not say any names, but there is was member who kept making tons of polls who didn't even own the game, but flooded every topic flaming the game every opportunity they got. There are others as well, they derail topics just flooding it with insulting language at members who might enjoyed an aspect of the game, or CA staff, or anyone who is not flaming the game in their post.

Is it understandable why people told them to shut up? They were just insulting the game in every topic which they never even owned to actually give a valid comment on. There are a few others which have done this and do this too.

One amazing thing is, they all have the default avatar:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/avatars/rtw/m/RTW_100.gif

I have unconscious been trained by the vast replies of idiots with the avatar to just ignore and skip posts with that picture displayed next to it. That isn't a very good sign as unfortunately I just end up skipping the posts of innocents.

Daveybaby

04-16-2009, 09:12

One amazing thing is, they all have the default avatar
LOL, was just thinking the exact same thing.

IMO, what this forum really needs is an ignore function, that completely and utterly hides the posts of people on your ignore list. No more self-obsessed bleating. Bliss!

Andres

04-16-2009, 09:28

LOL, was just thinking the exact same thing.

IMO, what this forum really needs is an ignore function, that completely and utterly hides the posts of people on your ignore list. No more self-obsessed bleating. Bliss!

There is an ignore function.

Just go to the profile of the member you wish to ignore. Right above the box where you can write visitor messages, you'll see:

Send Message User Lists Edit User Profile View My Personal Webpage

Click on the little arrow next to "User Lists" and you'll get a menu. One of the options is "Add to ignore list". Click it et voilà.

Don't try it out with my profile, since you cannot put moderators on your ignore list. Apparently, we are just too interesting to be ignored.

~:joker:

:bow:

caravel

04-16-2009, 14:31

One amazing thing is, they all have the default avatar
Have you not yet heard of the mysterious cult of the default avatar users?

Dayve

04-16-2009, 15:57

We've all seen people get flamed to buggery for making an honest and respectful complaint though, and it IS always the same people defending and flaming those people.

When the CA staff member made that big speech about how the game isn't perfect but IS finished, you have to remember that whoever made that speech was practically a politician in how the speech was made. He avoided almost everything that was actually criticised and sold the reassurance that they are working around the clock to polish the game off.

There hasn't actually been an apology yet for the wealth of misinformation that was spun before release, such as Empire having the best AI yet, the AI having been worked on for 2 years alone by a dedicated team of AI'ers, no warning of most major bugs, etc. etc.

We know all games ship with bugs and i personally knew Empire was going to be a bit of a dump when i clicked on the purchase button, but i knew i'd still enjoy it and i am enjoying it, and i know that it's how game companies work... sell the games good points and don't tell a single soul that there is anything even remotely wrong with it, i know that's how business works and i don't mind that.

But what does bother me are lies, like the AI having been worked on more than any other TW game yet where it clearly, gleemingly has not been worked on any more than in Rome or M2. This is one lie i bought, because i thought they would have learned from the abysmal AI in Rome and M2, but no, the AI is still only as intelligent as a boiled egg.

So, having been deceived like that, i'm going to complain when i feel like it, as i am allowed to do so. I always do it in a respectful and true manner and make no personal attacks, so any responses to those complaints should also be respectful and contain no personal attacks.

Or we could all just stop complaining altogether, then CA will think we're happy to lay down and be walked all over and the next game will be just as poor quality when that is released too.

Daveybaby

04-16-2009, 16:25

The problem is, Dayve, that you think that this:

But what does bother me are lies, like the AI having been worked on more than any other TW game yet where it clearly, gleemingly has not been worked on any more than in Rome or M2. This is one lie i bought, because i thought they would have learned from the abysmal AI in Rome and M2, but no, the AI is still only as intelligent as a boiled egg.
is 'respectful and true'. Calling someone a liar (especially since i'm guessing you have no idea of the complexities involved in getting an AI to work right) because the game is buggy is in no way respectful. It's also not true - because as is common practice around here lately youre confusing your opinion with fact.

And you think that this:

I find it ridiculous that the game shipped with such horrendous bugs as soldiers turning to face the wrong way mid-battle, or entire units not being able to engage in combat because 1 soldier is stuck trying to climb over a fence. These kinds of bugs should never have made it through testing, and make me wonder if the game was even tested at all.
is 'a pretty harsh criticism, but a true one and a constructive one'. It's not constructive in any way, it's just moaning. In what way is repeating your complaints over and over at every opportunity (without offering any kind of solution) constructive?

I'm not singling you out here, it's just that youve handed me a perfect example of the difference between what some people think is 'reasonable' criticism and others just think is pointless whining and slagging.

Nobody here (nobody sane, anyway) thinks that the game is finished and perfect. That doesnt mean we want every thread derailed with the same complaints every time. We know youre not happy, we heard you the first time. And even if we didnt hear you the first time it's still there - that's one of the benefits of internet forums over telephone conversations.

@Andres: Thanks :grin:

Fisherking

04-16-2009, 17:27

I am not going to defend anyone. But I do think that some of the criticism is a bit overblown.

Everyone has an opinion and a point of view they are coming from and they are all a little different.

I see improvement in the AI over past games, but it doesn’t mean that it is all great.

I suspect that there is a lot it is supposed to be doing that it is not, for one reason or another. I have seen it do clever things a time or two and then not do much except attack straight ahead at other times.

Anyone thinking the game has no problems is not looking very deep but I don’t know that we were lied to.

Code changes and new builds can affect the way the AI works and not all the features seem exactly flawless. The building browser for instance seems almost useless. You cant click on anything there and go to it. It is just a list. Some times a particular item works one was if there are several entries and differently if there is only one. The Native American Factions all seem a bit too belligerent and my go from friendly to war in only a couple of turns. Understanding why a very friendly faction won’t trade is puzzling.

I suspect there are things not working as intended that we have hardly noticed…and I hope that doesn’t mean they won’t get fixed. Some examples might be; why do the Barbary Pirates never seem to leave the Mediterranean? Why does Russia seem to think it needs a huge navy but usually only builds galleys? Why don’t AI factions ever make peace with each other?

The game mechanics are not perfect and some are still having difficulties with crashes or features not working.

On the other hand some of the things that get criticized are like I said, a bit over stated. The features work, or are improvements but it is a matter of degrees. Flat statements which say that nothing works, or something is nonexistent are just over done and don’t really tell you anything.

People who are experiencing no problems may feel insulted a bit by posts like that, just as those who are experiencing difficulties feel angered when others say the game is just fine.

It hasn’t lived up to what I had hoped for, but it seems a decent enough game once the kinks are worked out…when ever that might be. I do see where it was a massive undertaking with almost everything changed.

I think a lot of what they have proposed to do is good, but I am skeptical of other parts.

The stability issues still have not been completely addressed and that needs to happen first.

Then we can see what they can make of the game.

Still, in the end there are those who love it and others who hate it. It was the same with Rome and maybe a bit more so with M2. It is nothing new.

I have taken lumps for post on either side of an issue and I don’t expect that to change.

Dayve

04-16-2009, 19:59

A lot of it is overblown, way overblown. If you listened to some people they'd have you believing the game doesn't even start up and that you can't go a single turn without having at least 30 CTD's, but not all of it, and yeah people keep complaining because their complaints are never acknowledged, only complained about.

Somebody complains, somebody complains about the complaining, nobody acknowledges anything. The only thing i see being acknowledged is that "The game isn't perfect". We know, nothing is perfect in the world, that doesn't ease anybody's frustrations though, when all CA ever say is "We're working on it" And "The game isn't perfect, we know".

We were told since news of the game was released that the AI was revolutionary and better than ever and had been worked on by a dedicated team, unlike previous games where the AI wasn't worked on in such an intense manner. I don't believe this, i think it's a lie, and when you look at how bad the AI is, it's not difficult to come to that conclusion. It's as intelligent as a boiled egg.

I can't offer anything constructive on how to improve that AI because i don't dedicate my life to working as a coding expert for AI in video games, but it was a barefaced lie. I still would have bought the game even if they'd told the truth and said that the AI was really no better than Rome or M2 because i love these games regardless of the AI, but i don't like being lied to.

nafod

04-17-2009, 04:36

Somebody complains, somebody complains about the complaining, nobody acknowledges anything. The only thing i see being acknowledged is that "The game isn't perfect". We know, nothing is perfect in the world, that doesn't ease anybody's frustrations though, when all CA ever say is "We're working on it" And "The game isn't perfect, we know".

1. I agree with Dayve on this point.

If one thinks the complainers are doing CA a disservice, telling them to go away and questioning why they even bought the game isn't exactly in CA's best interest either.

Truth is I didn't find the ORG until well after RTW was on the shelf never to be played again. And guess what? I had no porblem with how it functioned out of the box. I hear people say ETW's release is better than RTW and M2TW respective releases, but I had no porblems with either of these titles.

In fact of all the hours logged playing RTW the only things I disliked were that naval invasions seemed to be only scripted, Mediterranean fleet spam, and squalor leading one to not want to build farms.

M2TW seemed pretty good to me until I caught on to things that weren't working correctly via posts here at the org. In fact the only bitterness that remains for me about M2TW is that they got things right with Kingdoms, but didn't address the Grand Campaign.

I've learned alot from the bughunters here, and hope they continue to bring these things to light.

Besides what entertainment would a bunch of threads about how great and fun this game is provide?

Fisherking

04-17-2009, 08:13

Believe me, if they said the AI was like M2 I don’t think I would have spent the money.

But it does seem better. It isn’t Alexander the Great but it doesn’t have to be to be better than M2.

They don’t stand there until they are all dead getting shot to pieces. I had at least one effective ambush pulled on me with two stacks hitting me back and front before I could deploy.

Granted most of the few battles I have lost, I was out numbered three to one but in M2 those were good odds unless there was an elephant in the crowd.

Most aspects of the game are better than M2TW.

The battle AI does not seem to be playing at the level they said it would but that doesn’t mean it is not better than that of the past games.

Focusing so much on one part glosses over most of the more serious problems.

This game for sure has had more serious stability issues then the last two and it still dose.

I believe they will get them fixed, and soon I hope. Not to fix them would likely mean the end for the franchise, as most of the problems seem to be on rigs that are well above minimum standards.

nafod

04-18-2009, 04:47

You also have to love how whenever someone posts a CTD issue every fan immediately swings into defence of CA and feels the need to educate every poster on the ABC's of owning a computer.

To an extent this seems helpful, but given any retort the ensuing discussion results in a flamefest.

To be fair my comp probably doesn't even meet minimum specs but I can run everything flawlessly on High. This doesn't mean those with problems have hardware or configuration errors. Especially when the error arises from activating a certain unit.

pevergreen

04-18-2009, 11:58

Have you not yet heard of the mysterious cult of the default avatar users?

Wait. you're back to Caravel? :laugh4:

Don't do that to me! I look at that avatar, and I think "tribesy".

You're throwing me off! :laugh4:

Tsavong

04-18-2009, 12:49

What I find disturbing is that as people have expressed themselves either with frustration or elation about aspects of the game there seems to be a little group (possibly cult) of members who see it as their duty to shut down any criticism of the product (yes it is a product after all) or those who made it.
What I find annoying is people who derail topics discussing the game to go on a self serving rant about how they don't like the game and how CA infringed there rights etc. Wall they are in titled to say that I just wish they would not go around spamming threads about other things when there are many threads where they can rant away.

Free Speech - Some people just don't like it
Well apparently you are one of the 'cult' anti free speech as you don't seem to want people to put a counter argument to people complaining. :clown:

Perhaps you should start a back room topic about Free Speech.

Didz

04-18-2009, 13:17

Turbosatan

04-18-2009, 14:38

There is no doubt that some people are having problems playing this game, what would be more constructive is to try and work out why. Or more to the point 'Why them and not us'.

Wise words in general there Didz, but that last paragaph is the clincher for me.

Is it some built-in compatibility issue with the game? Motherboard drivers? The colour of the case? There's so many variables when it comes to PCs (both soft- & hardware). Then there's the setup of the rig in question...

It boggles my mind that the thing works on anything.

Fisherking

04-18-2009, 15:14

Wise words in general there Didz, but that last paragaph is the clincher for me.

Is it some built-in compatibility issue with the game? Motherboard drivers? The colour of the case? There's so many variables when it comes to PCs (both soft- & hardware). Then there's the setup of the rig in question...

It boggles my mind that the thing works on anything.

LOL!

Had Apple licensed their OS we wouldn’t have this problem!

But we are stuck with the IBM and Microsoft legacy.

It was apparent even in the days of DOS that running a new game was always going to be a headache.

Every one was a new exercise in patience as you tried to revamp the config.sys to get it to run. Now we can’t even do that.

Most problems are system problems. But publishers have to address them and it does take time.

Beskar

04-18-2009, 18:58

Have you not yet heard of the mysterious cult of the default avatar users?
Hah, the funniest thing about it, it looks like they are wearing a fetish mask. So the joke is always on them.

Dutch_guy

04-18-2009, 19:18

This game for sure has had more serious stability issues then the last two and it still dose.

I disagree. In my opinion, having played all the games with the exception of Shogun and having been here reading these boards for years now, this game is an improvement over Rome and M2.

The stability seems to vary from player to player. As for me, I haven't had a single CTD yet.

ETW also doesn't have the truly game breaking memory leak (M2) and save game bug (Rome) previous games have had which truly warrant the reactions some people on these boards have reserved for ETW.

Vanilla ETW is surprisingly finished for a released Total War game. It has its issues, numerous issues, but it is unquestionably in a better state at release than M2 and Rome. Not to mention it simply being a better game than both with regards to gameplay, depth and even AI.

:balloon2:

Greyblades

04-18-2009, 19:56

Hah, the funniest thing about it, it looks like they are wearing a fetish mask. So the joke is always on them.

And have you seen the ears? They look like mutated versions of Peter jacksons elves.

Konig Prasatko

04-20-2009, 00:13

What I find annoying is people who derail topics discussing the game to go on a self serving rant about how they don't like the game and how CA infringed there rights etc. Wall they are in titled to say that I just wish they would not go around spamming threads about other things when there are many threads where they can rant away.

Well apparently you are one of the 'cult' anti free speech as you don't seem to want people to put a counter argument to people complaining. :clown:

Perhaps you should start a back room topic about Free Speech.

Zerg, you have not understood what I though was clearly stated. I am not against people putting up a counter argument but rather I'm against flamming anyone who expresses their view positive or negative. There are general principals that govern a forum such as avoiding taking a thread off topic, swearing etc I'm sure the owners/moderators of this forum support the principal that people should be allowed an opinion and that nobody should be attacked for that opinion.

If you want to be padantic or absolute about free speech then to be free we can all swear, abuse, be racist or talk about molesting children. So in that respect their is no free speech in western societies or this forum.

Zerg most members appreciate and agree with my OP and if you object to the words free speech you can replace them with 'Forum principals' if that helps you grasp what I'm on about.

Beskar

04-21-2009, 23:03

Had Apple licensed their OS we wouldn’t have this problem!

We would. Apple OS is only so stable because Apple themselves produce the machines for it to run on and there is no variation at all between the computers hardly. The fact is, if Apple OS licensed it, their work load would instantly skyrocket and they would actually lose business as people would realise that is the whole "stability" argument is a bad one.

Mac advertise a lot of things, to say they are superior to Windows, it is actually amusing. In the adverts "We don't get many viruses, it is because we are better." the answer isn't that, the real answer is "We don't get many viruses as less than 4% of Computer users actually use a Mac OS." If you was writing a virus, to scam people, would you target 96% of the population or 4%? It is common sense.

As a note, I used to be a Mac user, so I know from experience they are extremely overrated. I used to love the old adverts where they said their processers were 5 times superior to Intel's processor, often comparing the two for years upon years in their adverts, the they launched the Intel Mac saying "They are better than ever."

Nebuchadnezzar

04-22-2009, 02:23

One has to be very careful anyway when talking about 'Free Speech'. In practice, no society or community can afford to allow its members to say literally anything they like. Thats why we have laws for 'slander' and 'libel', and why with the new invented political excuse of 'Threat of Terrorism' we are no longer allowed to talk freely about a lot of things our governments don't like us discussing.

There is no doubt that some of the posts on ETW have crossed the line beyond the bounds of what is socially acceptable under the banner of 'Free Speech', and unfortunately people in general who try to play the 'Free Speech' card are often arguing for the right to immunity from social obligation.

And yet companies continue to exercise their right of 'Free Speech' to use trickery, lies and deception to sell their products! Oh yes, I know that this is illegal in some countries but unfortunately most people don't have a few 100k lying about to bring it to court to enforce it.

It may also be socially acceptable for manufacurers (in particular software/games) to sell defective products and consumers to accept them but nevertheless it is both irresponsible & unscrupulous. Just which sewer did their social obligations disappear to mmm?

Anyone??

Turbosatan

04-22-2009, 08:38

And yet companies continue to exercise their right of 'Free Speech' to use trickery, lies and deception to sell their products! Oh yes, I know that this is illegal in some countries but unfortunately most people don't have a few 100k lying about to bring it to court to enforce it.

It may also be socially acceptable for manufacurers (in particular software/games) to sell defective products and consumers to accept them but nevertheless it is both irresponsible & unscrupulous. Just which sewer did their social obligations disappear to mmm?

Anyone??

I give you the godlike Bill Hicks:

"If anyone here is in advertising or marketing... Kill yourselves.

Seriously though, if you are, do. THere is no rationalisation for what you do & you are Satan's little helpers. Okay? Kill yourselves. Seriously. You are the ruiners of all things good."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo

A touch overblown when applying Bill to videogames -- after all, marketing & advertising helps destroy the environment, people's lives, their mental health, their self-esteem, damage gender/race relations, increases tension within communities, & generally pollutes the world with slick noisome waste that clogs up your brain & drains you of your humanity & compassion -- but I think the general thrust of the man's argument is what we should be taking away here.

Trapped in Samsara

04-22-2009, 09:49

Hi

For a number of years, not so long ago, I did desktop support for a very large media company which used a mix of Macs and PCs. The contention that the former are very stable, don't fail catastrophically, etc. is, in my experience, utterly without foundation.

Regards
VGB

Didz

04-22-2009, 12:04

Veresov

04-22-2009, 15:06

I wonder how you can possibly be "constructive" when the game crashes consistently. When I read on the .COM about all the different bugs and posts in the Tech Help Forum that largely go unanswered by Creative Assembly.

I don't ask the fanboys that can run this game to criticize the game and neither should they ask me to compliment (or offer constructive criticism for) a game that will not. The fact that CA is addressing all the stability issues proves the point that the game that the problems I am experiencing (and others) is due to buggy software. I purchased Empire to play it not to wait around for a stupid patch for 6 weeks+.

The most constructive thing I feel that I can do in view of my experience with this game is to discourage anyone who is contempting purchasing this game.

Nebuchadnezzar

04-23-2009, 03:28

I give you the godlike Bill Hicks:

"If anyone here is in advertising or marketing... Kill yourselves.

Seriously though, if you are, do. THere is no rationalisation for what you do & you are Satan's little helpers. Okay? Kill yourselves. Seriously. You are the ruiners of all things good."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo

A touch overblown when applying Bill to videogames -- after all, marketing & advertising helps destroy the environment, people's lives, their mental health, their self-esteem, damage gender/race relations, increases tension within communities, & generally pollutes the world with slick noisome waste that clogs up your brain & drains you of your humanity & compassion -- but I think the general thrust of the man's argument is what we should be taking away here.

lol...
In fact I am directly involved in marketing and know all too well how deceptive it can be. Many times encroaching legal boundaries (and god forbid sometimes even passing them) but I don't intend to kill myself, at least not yet.

My point being was that as individuals we are always reminded of our social and moral obligations yet buisinesses seem to escape it (or circumvent it).