Republika Molotova Revolts

[Cronos Impera]

This is the unofficial name of the Republic of Moldova, a country full of people who refuse to declare they're Russian/Romanian and name themselves Moldovan just to get free gas from Russia and an EU passport from Romania. This practical joke of a state is the very essance of opportunism and corruption.
Just imagine. Let's just pretend the majority of Kosovo declared themselves Kosovars and impose visas on Albanians, banned Albanian flags and impose visas on Albanian citizens. Despite the fact that Kosovar Albanians now have an official flag and working Parliment and Government, at Independence Day they waved Albanian flags , nor Serbian, nor Kosovar, but Albanian flags.
When Moldova (Bessarabia) broke from the Soviet Union, Romanians from the other side of the river Prut (the state boundry between RMD and RO) formed a flower bridge, hoping for the reunification of Greater Romania (which comprised both in the Interwar Period). The so-called "Moldovans" from the other bank beat the **** out of them. The independence was recognised internationally, the wars in Transnistria began and history goes on.
From Romania they gained:
- free passports (citizen rights equal to those of Romanians)
- financial aid
- free electricity
- free scholarships and facilities for students in the finest Romanian Universities

What did they give back instead?
- ban on textbooks and newspapers of Romanian origins
- censorship of Romanian-based Television
- arrests, beatings and expulsions of pro-Romanian youth
- imposing special visas for Romanian citizens who want to travel in Moldova
-reprisals (https://img2.imageshack.us/img2/6240/123978591015969100.jpg)
-more beatings (http://www.stiri.romanism.net/?p=2525)


This state is now in turmoil and is ready to provide Europe with THE LAST ANTI-COMMUNIST REVOLUTION.
This is the manifesoto of the pro-Romanian "Moldovan" youth to Europe and the World. The elections have been rigged as usual and the voting lists ware filled by many dead or missing citizens. Thus the anti-Romanian Communist party won 61 of the 110 seats in the Parliment. Students from Romania as well as liberals from Moldova started a peaceful Revolution and things as usual went ugly (190 youths arrested, 3 dead, Parliment in flames). Voronin as usual blames Romania and European Secret Agencies for the mess.
Here is the open letter of the protesters

Open Letter

The Committee for free elections in Republic of Moldova
Towards
The Embassies and Governments of the European Union member states and the United States of America in Bucharest,
European Parliament
European Commission
Council of Europe

The Committee for free elections in Moldova, established in Bucharest on 8 April 2009, aims to coordinate the spread of the correct information on the situation created by the communist regime from Chisinau. In order to achieve the objective proposed:

1. We demand the release of all arrested persons and appropriate medical treatment for the wounded. We seek the support of the media in this campaign to promote the respect for human rights and democratization in Moldova.
2. We demand the invalidation of election results from 5th of April, fraud by the communist authorities from Chisinau.
3. We demand the organization of a new scrutiny under the supervision of the Council of Europe, European Union, USA, Russia, Ukraine, Turkey.
4. We demand the organization of a free election campaign, lasting at least 30 days under the securities described below.
5. We demand the control of public television and radio in Chisinau by a Governing Board, consisting of scientific and cultural personalities politically unaffiliated, under the protection of international and national observers.
6. We demand that the citizen Vladimir Voronin not to make statements and use of presidential powers, as his mandate of 4 years expired on the 7th of April and has already entered into conflict with the Criminal Code of the Republic of Moldova.
7. We demand to the Central Electoral Commission to send to the judicial authorities the evidences of the massive electoral fraud which was committed.
8. We demand that the General Prosecution of the Republic of Moldova to investigate the fraud, professionally and transparent for inside and foreign observers.
9. We call for the support of the European Commission for the young demonstrators from the Great National Assembly Square in Chisinau which hope to have a state of law through free elections, to freedom and democracy.
10. We will warrant lawyers from the European Union to appoint our rightful purpose.
11. We ask for all the public actors to support and promote norms and values in the Republic of Moldova.
12. We demand the political leaders from Chisinau to undertake and support our message in public.

We set forth provisional headquarter of the Committee for Free elections in the Republic of Moldova in Bucharest, Batistei Street no 24A,

[HoreTore]

Something happening in another tiny piece of the balkans nobody cares about?

Great...

[Strike For The South]

“If there is ever another war in Europe, it will come out of some damned silly thing in the Balkans”

Words to live by:yes:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I don't think that it is even technically part of the Balkans. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/be/Balkanpeninsula2.png)

[HoreTore]

I don't think that it is even technically part of the Balkans. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/be/Balkanpeninsula2.png)

Dang!

Oh well, it's not like anyone cares about eastern europe either, so....

[ICantSpellDawg]

I get the feeling that you hate geography and demography, Horetore.:shame:

[Strike For The South]

Isn't Russia supposed to have this place on lockdown? If they can't do this than doesn't that make them just a really big Belarus?

[Sarmatian]

Dang!

Oh well, it's not like anyone cares about eastern europe either, so....

It's a good thing so many people care about Scandinavia... I spent entire day scratching my scrotum and thinking about it...

Just because you think you're better than anyone else and don't give a **** about Balkans, eastern Europe or whatever part of the world you don't deem civilized or worthy enough of being graced by your thoughts, it doesn't mean that people everywhere else are like that.

[Strike For The South]

It's a good thing so many people care about Scandinavia... I spent entire day scratching my scrotum and thinking about it...

Just because you think you're better than anyone else and don't give a **** about Balkans, eastern Europe or whatever part of the world you don't deem civilized or worthy enough of being graced by your thoughts, it doesn't mean that people everywhere else are like that.

You have to admit, much of this is just petty nationalism.

[KarlXII]

It's a good thing so many people care about Scandinavia... I spent entire day scratching my scrotum and thinking about it...

Just because you think you're better than anyone else and don't give a **** about Balkans, eastern Europe or whatever part of the world you don't deem civilized or worthy enough of being graced by your thoughts, it doesn't mean that people everywhere else are like that.

Other than war, ethnic nationalism and genocide, what has the Balkans shown for itself lately?

[Strike For The South]

Other than war, ethnic nationalism and genocide, what has the Balkans shown for itself lately?

Hey man, Eastern European women a HOT. Especially when they speak english with that accent. I'll be part of there gulag any time.

What has Sweeden shown besides Ikea and ripping off the Italians (one of Gods choosen people) with there subpar meatballs.

[KarlXII]

Hey man, Eastern European women a HOT. Especially when they speak english with that accent. I'll be part of there gulag any time.

What has Sweeden shown besides Ikea and ripping off the Italians (one of Gods choosen people) with there subpar meatballs.

Touche, but I don't get pissy when someone mentions it. Also, the Swedes aren't killing the Norwegians and the Norwegians aren't killing the Danes because of petty nationalism and ethnic differences.

[Strike For The South]

Touche, but I don't get pissy when someone mentions it. Also, the Swedes aren't killing the Norwegians and the Norwegians aren't killing the Danes because of petty nationalism and ethnic differences.

All I need to know (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY_Yf4zz-yo)

All of you just wish you were Americans. Granted all of you wish you were Frexans (French-Texas alliance) but we are a very selective bunch.

[KarlXII]

All I need to know (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY_Yf4zz-yo)

All of you just wish you were Americans. Granted all of you wish you were Frexans (French-Texas alliance) but we are a very selective bunch.

See? The King of Sweden loves Meatballs and Cooking!

I am American.....I thought I made that very clear a while ago.

[Strike For The South]

See? The King of Sweden loves Meatballs and Cooking!

I am American.....I thought I made that very clear a while ago.

I know, I just wanted you to prove my point. You dirty immigrant. ~;)

[edyzmedieval]

I personally would take the M9 Beretta stashed in my basement and march on with other people to Moldavia.

No seriously, that place belongs rightfully to Romania, and Russia can :daisy: off from that place, greedy :daisy: . They have Siberia and other places, why do you need Moldavia?

[KarlXII]

I know, I just wanted you to prove my point. You dirty immigrant. ~;)

Nah, that was my grandfather. Funny story about how he got here too.

[Strike For The South]

Nah, that was my grandfather. Funny story about how he got here too.

Whatever. I can trance my American back to 1620 straight off the boat.

Thank me.

[KarlXII]

I personally would take the M9 Beretta stashed in my basement and march on with other people to Moldavia.

Exactly my point about the Balkans/Eastern Europe.


No seriously, that place belongs rightfully to Romania, and Russia can :daisy: off from that place, greedy :daisy:

That place belongs to who the people decide it belongs to.


They have Siberia and other places, why do you need Moldavia?

Aren't we all jealous?

[KarlXII]

[QUOTE=Strike For The South;2213787]Whatever. I can trance my American back to 1620 straight off the boat.QUOTE]

So that was your French family?

[Strike For The South]

[QUOTE=Strike For The South;2213787]Whatever. I can trance my American back to 1620 straight off the boat.QUOTE]

So that was your French family?

English. The French was the 1700s there about. Mind you this is only my mums side.

My fathers American side goes back to 1982. Funny story about that to.

[KarlXII]

[QUOTE=KarlXII;2213791]

English. The French was the 1700s there about. Mind you this is only my mums side.

My fathers American side goes back to 1982. Funny story about that to.

Funny story about your funny story.

[Jolt]

Moldavia is for Romania what Kosovo is for Serbia. An example how immigrations by an Empire effectively change the ethnical and culture background of a territory. Albanians moved over to Kosovo during the Ottoman Empire, while immigration of Russian, Ukrainian and Cossacks was heavily supported by the Soviet Union after it annexed Bessarabia prior to WW2 as a means to counter the nationalistic Romanian pressure in the territory. Its Stalin policy at it's best. Pitting ethnicities one against the others. So much that while Moldavia was under Romanian control from 1917-1939, the vast majority of its population were ethnical Romanians, nowadays thanks to the immigration encouraged by Stalin one third of its population is Russian-based. My opinion is that Moldavia should belong to Romania, as much as Kosovo should remain with Serbia, and as Palestine should be granted sole sovereignty over the Israeli and Palestinian territories as there is an historical right of the countries over those regions which has been altered by imposition of foreign powers.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Kosovo should remain with Portugal

Letting your own bias in here a little bit? :laugh4: :clown:

[Jolt]

Letting your own bias in here a little bit? :laugh4: :clown:

Ugh...That. Was. Wrong.

[Sarmatian]

Other than war, ethnic nationalism and genocide, what has the Balkans shown for itself lately?

Depends... If you watch CNN, not a lot... If you try to see for yourself, who knows...

Just to clarify some things, geographical area known today as the Balkans have played a rather important role in European history. Do I need to mention Constantinople or Athens, should I compare them to whatever village there was in Scandinavia at the time? I don't want a pissing contest, just respect that there is 50+ million people at the Balkans and that trying to sum it up as nationalism and genocide is about the same as summing up German history as Nazism... I've traveled around Europe, I've been to a lot of countries, even ventured to North America and Asia and I've never met so biased and narrow minded people as Scandinavians (Swedes especially, actually). Does that give me the right to portray Swedes, Norwegians or Scandinavians in general as some nationalist bigots? I don't think so, but hey, maybe I shouldn't give a **** and do it, like HoreTore does...

Simple respect - even if you don't respect history and cultural heritage of the Balkans (to which there's much more than what you've seen on TV), at least respect that there's a lot of people living there and that they just want to live normal lives... Don't put yourself or your country on a pedestal. The air may not be so clean down here but at least you get more accurate grasp of the situation...

[Jolt]

Other than war, ethnic nationalism and genocide, what has the Balkans shown for itself lately?

THEY...WON...A...EURO...*sighs*

[KarlXII]

Depends... If you watch CNN, not a lot... If you try to see for yourself, who knows...

So, first things first, I don't watch CNN, thank you very much.


Just to clarify some things, geographical area known today as the Balkans have played a rather important role in European history.

Who is denying this?


Do I need to mention Constantinople or Athens, should I compare them to whatever village there was in Scandinavia at the time?

Should I mention Athens/Constantinople/Rome/Paris/London/Berlin/Munich/Stockholm/Moscow/Novi Sad to add to the pissing contest?


I don't want a pissing contest,

Apparently you do if you bring up Greek achievements.


just respect that there is 50+ million people at the Balkans and that trying to sum it up as nationalism and genocide is about the same as summing up German history as Nazism...

How many times has Germany killed 6 million Jews and 2 million other unfavorables compared to the number of times Slavic and Balkan ethnicities killed each other because they were born in the wrong village.


I've traveled around Europe, I've been to a lot of countries, even ventured to North America and Asia and I've never met so biased and narrow minded people as Scandinavians (Swedes especially, actually).

You claim you don't want a pissing contest, yet you continue with...a pissing contest.

You must have met some pretty hardcore Swedes, as the one's I have met are liberal and open minded.


Does that give me the right to portray Swedes, Norwegians or Scandinavians in general as some nationalist bigots?

It does if you have proof that Scandinavians are somehow no better than the various groups that committed genocide and ethnic cleansing in the Balkans.


Simple respect - even if you don't respect history and cultural heritage of the Balkans

It's not that I don't respect the bloody history of the Balkans, but excuse me if I don't respect war crimes and ethnic violence that occurs so much due to the mix of Slavs, Austrians, Italians, Greeks and Muslims that inhabit it.


(to which there's much more than what you've seen on TV)

How is this relevant? I gain my knowledge from facts of history.


at least respect that there's a lot of people living there and that they just want to live normal lives...

When have I ever said the contrary?

I don't see, other than petty nationalism, what is so bad about saying that the Balkans have been a hotspot of genocide, ethnic violence and warfare. Who assassinated Franz Ferdinand? Which group enacted race laws, burned down churches, and killed Serbs during the Second World War? Who killed the people at Lašva Valley? Who massacred those Bosniaks at Srebrenica?

This isn't a matter of respect or opinion, these are historical events that have happened.

[HoreTore]

Do I need to mention Constantinople or Athens, should I compare them to whatever village there was in Scandinavia at the time?

Nope, since nobody cares about Scandinavia either.

Germany, UK, France, Spain and Italy, those are the basic countries people care about.

[Cronos Impera]

Nope, since nobody cares about Scandinavia either.

Germany, UK, France, Spain and Italy, those are the basic countries people care about.

Start producing quality Mead and export it abroad. Then you'll see people care again. And please, don't try experimenting with beer or wine. You'll piss a lot of people around here.

[HoreTore]

Start producing quality Mead and export it abroad. Then you'll see people care again. And please, don't try experimenting with beer or wine. You'll piss a lot of people around here.

Do you have any idea what kind of crap mead really is...?

It's a fruity wine. With an awful taste. And more than just slightly gay.

[Samurai Waki]

I thought Norway was known for it's awesome mead? I think nobody seems to care because they aren't invading the coasts of England and ransacking monasteries anymore.

[Sarmatian]

snip

You obviously misunderstood my intention. I wasn't trying to start a pissing contest, I was merely trying to point out that there's a lot more to the Balkans than the wars in the 90's and that there's nothing so grand about Scandinavia and Scandinavians that gives them the right to look down on people, in the Balkans or anywhere else.

It's especially distasteful when it's done by people from some powerful countries in the west, as precisely those countries, together with Russia, had their big, fat, greedy paws into every little thing that's happened in the Balkans in the last 200 years.

[HoreTore]

You obviously misunderstood my intention. I wasn't trying to start a pissing contest, I was merely trying to point out that there's a lot more to the Balkans than the wars in the 90's and that there's nothing so grand about Scandinavia and Scandinavians that gives them the right to look down on people, in the Balkans or anywhere else.

:2thumbsup:

Couldn't be more accurate.

[Husar]

Well, I'm a conservative in this matter, that's bad enough, keep it as it is and let Moldavia be it's own state, AFAIK it wants to be just that, is that and why should it not stay that? If they're having a revolution, let them have their revolution, but if you want them to belong to Romania in your reactionary ways, then let's re-establish pre-WW1 Germany as well. :mellow:

[Sarmatian]

Bah, we should just reestablish Roman Empire and be done with it...

[Jolt]

Bah, we should just reestablish Roman Empire and be done with it...

We'd be national brethren! True Romans and followers of Caesar unlike those German barbarians and their Kaiser immitation. The new Roman Empire wouldn't probably last as long though.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm with the anti-communists. Furtermore, I think (re-)unification with Romania, including Trans-djenstria!, would best safeguard peace and stability in the long run.

And Russia ought to keep its clutches off of Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova.

[KarlXII]

You obviously misunderstood my intention. I wasn't trying to start a pissing contest, I was merely trying to point out that there's a lot more to the Balkans than the wars in the 90's and that there's nothing so grand about Scandinavia and Scandinavians that gives them the right to look down on people, in the Balkans or anywhere else.

I'll try to hold ethnic nationalism, violence and genocide in a better light, as per your request :dizzy2:.


It's especially distasteful when it's done by people from some powerful countries in the west, as precisely those countries, together with Russia, had their big, fat, greedy paws into every little thing that's happened in the Balkans in the last 200 years.

So? How is it relevant? I can't point out the long history of nationalism, war and genocides that have occured in the Balkans because you're a nationalist? I'm sorry, apparently facts don't sit well with you.

You continue to bring up Scandinavians like it matters. This thread isn't about Scandinavia, bringing them up is merely starting a pissing contest and trying to divert from the real point.

[Fragony]

So? How is it relevant? I can't point out the long history of nationalism, war and genocides that have occured in the Balkans because you're a nationalist? I'm sorry, apparently facts don't sit well with you.


t's especially distasteful when it's done by people from some powerful countries in the west, as precisely those countries, together with Russia, had their big, fat, greedy paws into every little thing that's happened in the Balkans in the last 200 years

Not relevant? Would love to hear more about that.

[KarlXII]

t's especially distasteful when it's done by people from some powerful countries in the west, as precisely those countries, together with Russia, had their big, fat, greedy paws into every little thing that's happened in the Balkans in the last 200 years

Not relevant? Would love to hear more about that.

What does me being a Westerner have anything to do with this? Am I not allowed an opinion due to the fact I'm from a country that bombed Serbia?

[Sarmatian]

I'll try to hold ethnic nationalism, violence and genocide in a better light, as per your request :dizzy2:.

So? How is it relevant? I can't point out the long history of nationalism, war and genocides that have occured in the Balkans because you're a nationalist? I'm sorry, apparently facts don't sit well with you.

You continue to bring up Scandinavians like it matters. This thread isn't about Scandinavia, bringing them up is merely starting a pissing contest and trying to divert from the real point.

You can point out anything you like, freedom of speech is wonderful thing. Facts do sit well with me, it's just that you've got them wrong. Nationalism appeared in the Balkans at the beginning of 19th century, so there's no long history of nationalism here, no longer than anywhere else in Europe, anyhow.

For violence and wars, well, you got me there. Did happen, but here some news for you (don't spread it around, it's a very carefully guarded secret, I could get in trouble for sharing this with you) - new research show that it's not a concept unique to the Balkans and that in fact there have been nationalistic wars, ethnic violence and war crimes all around the world throughout history and that unfortunately there will probably be more in the future. Yeah, I know, I too was surprised by this radical new information. I'm very sorry if it bothers you that I refuse to feel particularly guilty and morally inferior because the wars in the 90's or those before them. I can only hope that it won't happen again, here or anywhere else. Unfortunately, it probably will, not a perfect world, bummer...

I feel there's a lot more the people living in the Balkans than nationalism and the ethnic hatred and I will always react when someone tries to say otherwise. About all the people living here, Serbs or Greeks, Bulgarians or Romanians, Croats or Albanians... If that offends you or makes me a nationalist in your opinion, well, frankly, it speaks more about you than about me... You (or anyone else for that matter) may feel morally superior to me or people around me who live in my country and those who live in neighbouring countries, but hey, I don't have to agree and I'll continue to consider people from this tiny little part of the world equal to people living anywhere else.

[KarlXII]

Show me where I said the Balkans is only a place of nationalism and war, show me where I disprespected the Balkan people, show me these accusations you like to make about me.


Did happen, but here some news for you (don't spread it around, it's a very carefully guarded secret, I could get in trouble for sharing this with you) - new research show that it's not a concept unique to the Balkans and that in fact there have been nationalistic wars, ethnic violence and war crimes all around the world throughout history and that unfortunately there will probably be more in the future.

Yes, there will, due to the vast ethnic make up and the nationalism. Don't downplay the fact that the Balkans is, and has been, a hotspot of ethnic violence and absurd nationalism.


I'm very sorry if it bothers you that I refuse to feel particularly guilty and morally inferior because the wars in the 90's or those before them.

Never mentioned this, stop making stuff up.


I feel there's a lot more the people living in the Balkans than nationalism and the ethnic hatred and I will always react when someone tries to say otherwise.

I never said the Balkans is just nationalism and hated, again, stop making stuff up. It is undeniable that the Balkans has historically has such a vast make up of various peoples that it has been a spot filled with ethnic violence and nationalism. If that offends you, I don't apologize because it's fact.This isn't about the people, this is about simple history.


If that offends you or makes me a nationalist in your opinion, well, frankly, it speaks more about you than about me...

When have I ever mentioned anything about the people other than the nationalism and ethnic violence?


You (or anyone else for that matter) may feel morally superior to me

Never said this, stop making stuff up.


I don't have to agree and I'll continue to consider people from this tiny little part of the world equal to people living anywhere else.

When did I say Serbs are Devils? Where did I say Bosniaks deserve death? I did not. Stop making stuff up.

It's absurd to think you'd find it offensive when we mention that the Balkans (Your homeland, which makes sense) has been a cluster:clown: of genocide and ethnic tension, and that this whole "MOLDAVIA IS ROMANIA" and "MOLDAVIA HATES ROMANIA" is nothing new. I find it even more absurd that you'd even mention Scandinavia in some stupid attempt to somehow downplay facts.

[Sarmatian]

I'll send you a PM...

[Fragony]

What does me being a Westerner have anything to do with this? Am I not allowed an opinion due to the fact I'm from a country that bombed Serbia?

Nothing, I was just pointing out that Sarmatian is correct. The Balkan has always been the playing field of the powers, you can't just take out a single event even if it was rather horrible.

to give you a bit of an idea

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/History/ww-1/book/Reiss.html

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/History/ww2/gallery.html

edit, I put some spoiler tags there for a reason, no direct link to nasty imagery but if you are looking for them you will certainly find them, so viewers discretion be warned.

[LittleGrizzly]

I quite like the idea that we can blame world war 1 on the balkans...

Picture the scene its 1911 and europe is a place full of hippies and peace activists, France and Germany are best buddies and everyone loves everyone else and they all decided to make a pact to be friends forever and never declare war...

The evil residents of the Balkans saw all this happiness and couldn't bare to see such a peaceful happy world, and with a single shot they turned the best buddies in europe all into raging enemies...

Europe was a tinder box, the assassination was simply the spark... i think alot more blame has to go on the major powers for setting the scene...

[Cronos Impera]

So the morale is that wounds never heal and that blood/ethnic affliations shall always be more powerfull than racial/religious/national/international ones.No matter what actions those superpowers might undertake to supress blood/ethnic affiliations their best hope is assimilation/uprooting. You can't create a multiethnic entity without assimilating the main ethnicities.
You can't claim to preserve the ethnic identity of your minorities while in a national state and still exist as a national state.
Just like Texas. No matter how many Spanish or US immigrants flock there to eat quality beef or just witness a rodeo, at the end of the day Texas remains Texas with Chuck Norris as its Prophet.
Same goes for each spot on the face of this Earth.

[Husar]

Europe was a tinder box, the assassination was simply the spark... i think alot more blame has to go on the major powers for setting the scene...

To be precise, Austria, France and a certain Wilhelm II., his political staff and everyone who actually liked this airhead.

Austria for being a bunch of roalists who actually cared about their inbred royal family members so much to declare a war and risk thousands of lives for the death of one.
France for wanting the war and indirectly telling Germany they'd fall into our backs once the war started.
And Wilhelm II. and large parts of the german population who also wanted "a place under the sun", ruined all the diplomatic efforts of their predecessors and then gave those royalists mentioned above a blank cheque. :wall:

Oh and then I guess everyone else was looking forward to the heroic slaughter as well, so yes, it's hard to make out anyone specific to blame, but it was easy for the victors. :sweatdrop:

One just gets the impression that some parts of the eastern european/balkan population have not really left such nationalistic mindsets behind, but then neither have some western countries, I can think of one that always has to have a flag in the background of every TV news show and at least one that thinks it is so great it doesn't need anyone else. :sweatdrop:

[Strike For The South]

So the morale is that wounds never heal and that blood/ethnic affliations shall always be more powerfull than racial/religious/national/international ones.No matter what actions those superpowers might undertake to supress blood/ethnic affiliations their best hope is assimilation/uprooting. You can't create a multiethnic entity without assimilating the main ethnicities.
You can't claim to preserve the ethnic identity of your minorities while in a national state and still exist as a national state.
Just like Texas. No matter how many Spanish or US immigrants flock there to eat quality beef or just witness a rodeo, at the end of the day Texas remains Texas with Chuck Norris as its Prophet.
Same goes for each spot on the face of this Earth.

I like how Texas has become the benchmark for comparison in the Tavern. My work is done.

[LittleGrizzly]

I think Austria deserves a good share of the blame... of the demands they made on serbia (IIRC) the only one that serbia rejected was ceeding land to Austria... every other condition they asked for was met...

I can't understand how Germany was so confident, if the Russians hadn't had thier revolution they would have been fighting on two fronts...

I think the two other major powers deserve thier share of blame as well

Russia helped start the thing then went and had a revolution

Russia and France had a pact that if one was attacked the other would attack.... this strengthened thier confidence and made Germany more angry/scared basically made them feel under threat... to which they responded aggressively...

Im not sure what to put down to Britian but by simply being a mjor power and part of the network of alliances they helped encourage the march to war...

Everyone was well up for it though... apparently they were going to win by Christmas... all of them... I guess they could all be called extremely arrogant in that way...

One just gets the impression that some parts of the eastern european/balkan population have not really left such nationalistic mindsets behind, but then neither have some western countries, I can think of one that always has to have a flag in the background of every TV news show and at least one that thinks it is so great it doesn't need anyone else.

You want to hear some petty nationalism... talk to a welshman about the english ~;)

When we started talking nationalism that country sprung to my mind as well... Im guessing Israel would be fairly nationalistic, seige mentality combined with glorious victorys whilst outnumbered, I find thiers somewhat more understandable...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Husar, you forgot about Russia.

[LittleGrizzly]

One last one!

IIRC (thinking about making this a permanent disclaimer in my sig) from a great argument Ser had with ?? about WW1, I learnt that Russia and France mobilised thier troops before Germany did, mobilisation was all but a declaration of war as the powers simply couldn't mobilise them and have them sitting there...

lot less sure this bit but i think the Germans declared war and then mobilised thier troops... which seems the proper way to do it... this did mean however that Germany declared war before France and Russia... which gives out blame rights to French and Russians when not looking fully into the history...

[Seamus Fermanagh]

One last one!

IIRC (thinking about making this a permanent disclaimer in my sig) from a great argument Ser had with ?? about WW1, I learnt that Russia and France mobilised thier troops before Germany did, mobilisation was all but a declaration of war as the powers simply couldn't mobilise them and have them sitting there...

lot less sure this bit but i think the Germans declared war and then mobilised thier troops... which seems the proper way to do it... this did mean however that Germany declared war before France and Russia... which gives out blame rights to French and Russians when not looking fully into the history...

They'd already begun mobilizing under their "threat of war" declaration. At worst they were a day behind. Germany needn't have declared war on France, however. Even though the Schlieffen plan was the dominant model, they did have an East Front only alternative that had been constantly updated. They COULD have forced France to choose to be the aggressor -- and England would not have come in.

I always wondered what would've resulted...but that's fare for the Monastery.

[Sarmatian]

I think Austria deserves a good share of the blame... of the demands they made on serbia (IIRC) the only one that serbia rejected was ceeding land to Austria... every other condition they asked for was met...

I can't understand how Germany was so confident, if the Russians hadn't had thier revolution they would have been fighting on two fronts...

I think the two other major powers deserve thier share of blame as well

Russia helped start the thing then went and had a revolution

Russia and France had a pact that if one was attacked the other would attack.... this strengthened thier confidence and made Germany more angry/scared basically made them feel under threat... to which they responded aggressively...

Im not sure what to put down to Britian but by simply being a mjor power and part of the network of alliances they helped encourage the march to war...

Everyone was well up for it though... apparently they were going to win by Christmas... all of them... I guess they could all be called extremely arrogant in that way...


It's a bit more complicated that. Austrian annexation of Bosnia had a lot to do with that. Serbia was outraged by that like a ditched woman and complained to the Russians. Russians said "ok, we'll put some pressure on the Austrians, don't you worry about it". Then Germans confirm to Austrians "we've got your back, knock yourself out". Russia decides Austria and Germany are a bit too much at the moment, backs down and loses face.

Come 1914, similar situation, Austria threatens war, has German backing. Russia supports Serbia again, condemns the assassination but warns Austria in no uncertain terms that it won't tolerate attack on its ally. Russia is in much better position now, being allied with France and starts mobilizing troops along Austrian border. Germany panics because their entire war plan is based on defeating France first. They demand that Russian stop mobilizing on Austrian border at that the refusal would mean war. Russia refuses and then starts mobilizing forces on the German border. UK tries to organize a peace conference between Russia and Austria (and France and Germany as their allies). Russia and France agree, Germany refuses and advises Austria to do the same. Austria attack Serbia. Kaiser starts having second thoughts but all the wheels are already set in motion. Russia declares war on Austria. Germany declares war on France and Russia. In UK there is still no consensus, they only agree to close the channel to belligerent vessels. Germany demands right of passage through Belgium. Belgium refuses, citing the treaty of neutrality, signed by France, UK and Prussia. Germany declares war on Belgium, Britain then declares war on Germany.

There's a lot blame to go around.

Serbia sees itself as "Balkan Piedmont", wants to organize all South Slavs in a single state. Relatively strong war lobby, but doesn't want war in 1914. Two Balkan Wars just ended, country is in bad shape, needs to recover. Time works for Serbia, Austrian position is weakening daily and Russian is strengthening.

Austria - knows its position is weakening, opposed it are more compact national states. Serbian power is rising and it may bring complications to their land in the Balkans and among Slavic population in the dual monarchy. Wants to deal with Serbia as soon as possible. Entire government wants war, Franz Joseph is too old to do anything.

Russia - uncomfortable with German-Austrian alliance in the middle of Europe. Bound by treaty with Serbia, can't afford to lose face again and leave its ally hanging.

Germany - afraid of Russo-French alliance, feels isolated, Austria only ally. Defeat of Austria means Germany is practically alone. Worried about Russian army reform after Russo-Japanese war. Wants to expand colonial possessions.

France - resentment after the defeat in 1871, uncomfortable with a powerful Germany next to it and bound by alliance with Russia.

UK - isn't sure what its supposed to do, feels honour bound to assist the French, also fearful of balance of power that would be in Europe should Austria and Germany prevail, which would also bring a lot of problems for its colonial possessions.

If I had to delegate guilt, I'd say: 1.Austria, 2. Germany, 3. Russia, 4. France, 5. UK. Didn't put Serbia simply because it's not an important factor and even if it wanted war it would have to abandon it if a compromise between the great powers was reached. Like in the case of Austrian annexation of Bosnia some time before ww1, Serbia could bitch and moan but wouldn't be able to do anything.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Russia at the very least is as or more guilty than Germany, and possibly also France. I don't disagree with Austria at the top of the list, or the UK at the bottom.

[LittleGrizzly]

I knew about the chain of alliances... I did not know about the Austrians snatching a 'province' (TW term) what year was this ?

I also didn't know about the British attempt at a peace conference.. they were still complicit in the thing... but i think i will judge them less harshly next time I talk of it..

I like the description of UK's entry into the war, something like Britian has gone to war over a scrap of paper (belgian treaty)

Also the various descriptions of the countrys were intresting... I plan on doing a 5000 word essay on the causes of WW1 so this is all really helpful stuff...

[Tribesman]

I did not know about the Austrians snatching a 'province' (TW term) what year was this ?

1878 , the Russians had gone to war with Turkey and they had done a deal with the Austrians so Austria would not object to the formalisation of the independant Balkan nations and wouldn't object to the Russian territorial claims , the price Austria demanded for the deal was Bosnia .
So as samartian says the Serbians complained to the Russians about the evil Austrians taking the Turkish land and the Russians told the Serbs ooooo them nasty austrians look what they did to you, but it was the Russians who had done the deal with the Austrians in the first place so it was them who was playing the serbs as muppets .

[LittleGrizzly]

:laugh4::laugh4:

Intresting...

[Husar]

They'd already begun mobilizing under their "threat of war" declaration. At worst they were a day behind. Germany needn't have declared war on France, however. Even though the Schlieffen plan was the dominant model, they did have an East Front only alternative that had been constantly updated. They COULD have forced France to choose to be the aggressor -- and England would not have come in.

I always wondered what would've resulted...but that's fare for the Monastery.

I guess the problem was that Germany inquired what France would do and france indirectly said they'd attack, now the problem was most likely that once france would attack the Schlieffen plan might not have worked that well anymore, so we took the initiative. Of course France still hated us for 1871 and wanted revenge, that's what you get when you can't let go which is why we don't demand Prussia back.

Of course I blame the german government for completely ruining all relationships except with Austria, maybe they were afraid of a two-front war etc. but they brought themselves into this situation, afaik it were to a large extent the germans who did not want to renew all the treaties Bismarck had established to secure the status quo after forming Germany and it was also the german government that did not want a treaty with the UK when they offered one. IMO Wilhelm II. was completely full of himself, wanted to gain prestige, show might and power, and ended up looking like a fool and being partly responsible for the deaths of millions. It's not like WW1 was the first time he made a fool of himself either, he managed to create a few crises and insult a few foreign officials before that as well.
I'm not sure about the military leadership before WW1 but the companies who wanted colonies to enrich themselves just supported his behaviour, if I'm not mistaken they are also partly responsible because they contributed to the whole race between nations thing in which Germany was way too late anyway.

To quote one of my favourite Germans:

Your map of Africa is really quite nice. But my map of Africa lies in Europe. Here is Russia, and here... is France, and we're in the middle — that's my map of Africa.
~D

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Grizz:

I recommend Tuchman's Guns of August. The Germans truly believed that:

1) The Russians couldn't mobilize properly and begin a meaningful offensive in less than 6 weeks, more probably 8.

2) That the Schleiffen plan would yield a decisive field battle that broke the French Army within 6 weeks, allowing them to leave siege and covering forces and heavily reinforce the East just in time to stop the Russians.

The Germans were right, but also wrong. The Russians DIDN'T mobilize properly, but they got their armies facing Prussia rolling in 4 weeks by skimping on the others. They were logistically up in the air and miserably coordinated, but they did attack at least 2 weeks before the Germans thought was possible. Tannenberg smashed them, and the Russians took months to reorganize, but several corps of German troops had already been withdrawn from the West.

The Germans really did come pretty close to their decisive field battle, but at the very end they were even more tired than the Allies facing them, light in numbers by a few corps, hadn't transferred enough from the Strasbourg front towards Belgium, and dismissed Galieni's forces in Paris (giving the Allies a flank).

Even so, it was a near run thing.

Italy, part of the Central Powers Alliance, knew of the Schlieffen plan and when it went toes up they made sure they DIDN'T join in on Germany's side. Coming in for the Allies, this gave BOTH Germany and AH responsibilities on two fronts.

[Tribesman]

Intresting...
Yes , but the Serbs shouldn't feel that bad about it , after all none on emerging nations got what they thought they had been promised by Russia . They were all just bit players in the bigboys game so should have been happy with the few crumbs that were thrown to them .
Britain managed to play a blinder in that game , they got Cyprus and didn't have to do bugger all to get it really

[LittleGrizzly]

I recommend Tuchman's Guns of August.

Thanks. Good stuff

Britain managed to play a blinder in that game , they got Cyprus and didn't have to do bugger all to get it really

What just through negoiation ?

[Sarmatian]

1878 , the Russians had gone to war with Turkey and they had done a deal with the Austrians so Austria would not object to the formalisation of the independant Balkan nations and wouldn't object to the Russian territorial claims , the price Austria demanded for the deal was Bosnia .
So as samartian says the Serbians complained to the Russians about the evil Austrians taking the Turkish land and the Russians told the Serbs ooooo them nasty austrians look what they did to you, but it was the Russians who had done the deal with the Austrians in the first place so it was them who was playing the serbs as muppets .

Basically something like that, although there are Austrian and Russian version. Austrian version says that all has been agreed upon earlier, as Tribesy said while Russian version says they were cheated. Austrian version is more plausible as it was probably a bad diplomacy from the Russian side. The guy involved in the negotiations was demoted and never again held important diplomatic position within the Russian Empire...

It's important to note that AH got only the right to administer Bosnia in 1870's. The formal annexation happened only in 1908-1909.

Serbia feels cheated, Russia loses face. It can't afford to let down Serbia again in 1914.


Russia at the very least is as or more guilty than Germany, and possibly also France. I don't disagree with Austria at the top of the list, or the UK at the bottom.

Actually, I can't agree with that. Germany is in the strong second position, almost up there with AH. It was Berlin that let Austrians of the leash with the blank cheque and even actively encouraged Austria. Russia, although it promised support to Serbia, leaned pretty heavily on Serbia to accept almost everything in the Austrian ultimatum and it was ready to revert back to diplomacy.

"The Serbs must be disposed of, and SOON!"
- Kaiser Wilhelm, 30 June 1914

"Zimmermann replied that if Austria meant to act she must do so immediately without diplomatic delays which would waste precious time and give the alarm to Entente diplomacy.[...] Zimmermann felt sure that, if this course were pursued, the conflict would remain localised, but that, should France and Russia intervene, Germany alone with her increased military strength would be able to meet them."
- Notes on meeting between Austrian and German foreign ministries, 5 July 1914

"Next day Bethmann officially informed Szogyeny and myself in the presence of Zimmermann that it was entirely for us to decide on the measures we were to take: in whatever circumstances and whatever our decision we should find Germany unconditionally at our side in allied loyalty."
- Hoyos, the Austrian envoy to Berlin, records how the German Chancellor offered Austria a blank cheque as regards Serbia, 6 July.

"Berlin expects the Monarchy to take action against Serbia... I could see that Germany would interpret any compromise on our part with Serbia as a confession of weakness, which would not remain without repercussions on our position in the Triple Alliance and the future policy of Germany."
- Berchtold, Austrian foreign minister, notes some veiled threats made by the German ambassador on 8 July.

It is important to note that Serbia was pretty much universally hated in Europe at the time and that even the Entente wouldn't object much if Serbia was absorbed by AH. Newspapers from Manchester from June 1914, although condemning bullying behaviour of AH and Germany, remarked that "if it were physically possible to remove Serbia and drop it in the ocean, the air Europe would become much cleaner". The image of Serbia changed during the war, mostly because of some pretty surprising victories of the Serbian army in spite of great hardships...

[rasoforos]

I do not know where to start and when to finish with it.

The fact that 'Moldavia bashing' turned into 'Balkan bashing' shows how dangerous lack of geographical knowledge is.

Firstly to Kronos Imperia:




'This is the unofficial name of the Republic of Moldova, a country full of people who refuse to declare they're Russian/Romanian and name themselves Moldovan just to get free gas from Russia and an EU passport from Romania. This practical joke of a state is the very essance of opportunism and corruption.'



The Moldavians themselves present a very different idea than yours. They are not(mostly) Romanians and they are not Russians. Just because Romania wants to absorb them because it considers Moldova as part of Romania doesn't make it so.




No seriously, that place belongs rightfully to Romania, and Russia can off from that place, greedy . They have Siberia and other places



Edyzmedieval. Moldovans claim it too you know :beam:


Anyway my pro-Moldovan stance is in no way affiliated to, or influenced by, the fact that I receive some fine Moldovan brandy twice a year or so. :medievalcheers:




And please if anyone is going to bash the Balkans, please go to the watchtower and demand/petition for a dedicated Balkan Bashing sub-forum. I find the fact that we are being bashed as a side-subject inside a Moldovan bashing forum highly insulting and I will have none of it! We, sirs, deserve more :beam:

[Louis VI the Fat]

The Moldavians themselves present a very different idea than yours. They are not(mostly) Romanians and they are not Russians. Just because Romania wants to absorb them because it considers Moldova as part of Romania doesn't make it so.I would like to see Moldova (re)united with Romania. Indeed Moldova is distinct. As are Wallachia, Transsylvania and Romanian Moldavia. No countries are a monolith. Yet the unification of some regions make sense. Moldova as a Romanian region is as sensible as Rhodes as a Greek region or Normandy as a French one. Or, to use a more apt example, as the five former East German Lands as part of a united Germany.

After 1989, Germany re-incorporated the eastern regions. (Mittel-Deutschland for you German ultra-nationalists). In Romania, it went wrong. Logically, Moldova should've been re-incorporated with the western regions of Romania, as happened in Germany. Alas, Romania went through one of the most prolonged processes to democracy of all of the former East European dictatorships.

Moldova itself relapsed into a petty communist state. A source of instability. Of Russian agitation. (To remain silent of transnistria...)

Democracy in Europe, Romania, and Moldova are not served by the continued existence of a petty, semi-dictatorial mobster state. (For clarity's sake: by which I mean Moldova, not Romania ~;p)



To give it a Balkan dimension: the retreat of the Austrian, British, Ottoman and Russian empires from the Balkan has been and is the long term goal. In the case of Moldova ('Bessarabia'), Russia is the power to be ousted. Sentiment in Greece and Serbia leans more towards Russia - their natural ally against the interference of other imperialist powers. Which, I guess, should explain for the varying opinion about the Republic of Moldova between Romania and Greece. I would enjoy a conversation between our posters from the region more than another tired debate about World Wars - which one can read about in virtually all threads here.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Question:

Is this the region of which Smetana composed that glorious suite of his?



Thoughts:

No, I never confused it with the Balkans. I am too avid a fan of military history not to understand precisely where it is. I think the conflation here isn't as much a product of geographic ignorance as some have suggested, however (as TW players the level of map literacy is pretty high), so much as this nationalist 'identity dispute" reminds us of how the Balkans have interacted among themselves for so much of the last quarter century. The thematic issues brought up are relevant to the Balkan experience even if the specific geographic concerns are unique.

[Husar]

Anyway my pro-Moldovan stance is in no way affiliated to, or influenced by, the fact that I receive some fine Moldovan brandy twice a year or so. :medievalcheers:

My pro-Moldovan stance is not affected by the fact that I know a really hot girl from Moldova (some may remember a certain topic and pictures) either. :sweatdrop:

But then I'm probably generally a geographical conservative, except when it comes to forming the world government. So basically it should not be integrated into Romania but the EU. ~;)

[rasoforos]

Which, I guess, should explain for the varying opinion about the Republic of Moldova between Romania and Greece. I would enjoy a conversation between our posters from the region more than another tired debate about World Wars - which one can read about in virtually all threads here.



Let me assure you most Greeks do not know where Moldova is, let alone have a sentiment about it.

My sentiment (and it is mine and mine alone (not representing Greece) and not connected to 'bribery by Brandy' :rolleyes: ) comes from the fact that I have known a few Moldovans and a few Romanians and that the feeling that 'the latter = the former' is (mostly) not shared by the latter. It is mostly Romanian wishful thinking and to make matters worse, due to population movements in the USSR it gets more complicated than that.

I believe Romania should try to fix it's situation at home before getting too involved into situations like this :yes:

[Sarmatian]

I would like to see Moldova (re)united with Romania. Indeed Moldova is distinct. As are Wallachia, Transsylvania and Romanian Moldavia. No countries are a monolith. Yet the unification of some regions make sense. Moldova as a Romanian region is as sensible as Rhodes as a Greek region or Normandy as a French one. Or, to use a more apt example, as the five former East German Lands as part of a united Germany.

After 1989, Germany re-incorporated the eastern regions. (Mittel-Deutschland for you German ultra-nationalists). In Romania, it went wrong. Logically, Moldova should've been re-incorporated with the western regions of Romania, as happened in Germany. Alas, Romania went through one of the most prolonged processes to democracy of all of the former East European dictatorships.

Moldova itself relapsed into a petty communist state. A source of instability. Of Russian agitation. (To remain silent of transnistria...)

Democracy in Europe, Romania, and Moldova are not served by the continued existence of a petty, semi-dictatorial mobster state. (For clarity's sake: by which I mean Moldova, not Romania ~;p)



To give it a Balkan dimension: the retreat of the Austrian, British, Ottoman and Russian empires from the Balkan has been and is the long term goal. In the case of Moldova ('Bessarabia'), Russia is the power to be ousted. Sentiment in Greece and Serbia leans more towards Russia - their natural ally against the interference of other imperialist powers. Which, I guess, should explain for the varying opinion about the Republic of Moldova between Romania and Greece. I would enjoy a conversation between our posters from the region more than another tired debate about World Wars - which one can read about in virtually all threads here.

I admit I'm not very familiar with situation in Moldavia, but from what I've been able to gather, election results paint a different picture than our Romanian friends want to show. Majority of population doesn't want to live in Romania. I don't have a strong opinion either way, it doesn't affect me personally in any way. It's not like Moldavia is the only semi-dictatorial mobster state in the region, it's facing strong opposition from Kosovo and Montenegro.

Again, the problem of great power interventions is evident and only serves to fuel nationalism. In the case of Albanians in Kosovo, self-determination is the way to go, in the case of Serbs in Bosnia, territorial integrity is the governing principle. The situation with Moldova complicated, Russia is directly involved. So, between double standards and Russia-NATO meddling all the time, I don't see much room for maneuver by Balkan nations. We're still forced to maneuver between hammer and anvil.

Now, the thing that Moldavia is not geographically part of the Balkans doesn't change much. Romania isn't either, but anything happening in Romania affects the entire region. Even Serbia isn't in the Balkans in its entirety. Novi Sad is divided by the Danube, it's not like I can go to the other side of the Danube to another part of city and say "these Balkan barbarian, they're not refined as us central Europeans.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Now, the thing that Moldavia is not geographically part of the Balkans doesn't change much. Romania isn't either, but anything happening in Romania affects the entire region. Even Serbia isn't in the Balkans in its entirety. Novi Sad is divided by the Danube, it's not like I can go to the other side of the Danube to another part of city and say "these Balkan barbarian, they're not refined as us central Europeans.Two remarks:

1) Geopgraphy is cultural, geographical boundaries are a matter of cultural narratives. For example, one can hear Britons as stubbornly denying that they are Europeans as Armenians insisting that they are.

To me, the Balkans is everything south and east of Vienna, and north and west of Istanbul. In the east, I am not even sure where I'd draw the line. L'vov? Possibly. Kiev? Maybe. Though probably, a bit further to the west.


2) Would I be wrong to note that you follow the Greek / Russian / Serbian narrative about Moldavia? Which I mean neutrally. I am not beholden to any particular narrative. Just observing.

[Sarmatian]

Two remarks:

1) Geopgraphy is cultural, geographical boundaries are a matter of cultural narratives. For example, one can hear Britons as stubbornly denying that they are Europeans as Armenians insisting that they are.

To me, the Balkans is everything south and east of Vienna, and north and west of Istanbul. In the east, I am not even sure where I'd draw the line. L'vov? Possibly. Kiev? Maybe. Though probably, a bit further to the west.

Geography is geography and you can't draw the lines where you like. Another issue is that those lines are often meaningless in political or cultural terms. Metternich said that all land east and south of AH are Asia (Asia begins on Landstrasse). Bismarck used the term "Zwischenlaendern" to describe everything between western Europe and Russia and Ottoman Empire, all of which were much more easily definable. History, on the other hands, shows us that in political and cultural terms, those boundaries in Europe don't really exist. What happens in the East affects the West and vice versa, now even more so than 100 years ago.



2) Would I be wrong to note that you follow the Greek / Russian / Serbian narrative about Moldavia? Which I mean neutrally. I am not beholden to any particular narrative. Just observing.

I'd say you would. I don't have any particular opinion about Moldavia. What I know comes from a text in the papers that I read the other day, where election results were presented and goals of each party roughly explained. I don't know about Russians, but I don't think either Serbs or Greeks have a particular narrative about Moldavia. There is no strong official position on the issue in the government or strong sentiment among the population. Most don't really care. Heck, most Serbs by now don't even care about Kosovo anymore, let alone about Moldavia. Rasoforos might explain sentiment in Greece better and correct me if I'm wrong, this is just my feeling.

The only thing I would object to is if the thing would escalate into an armed conflict. I've had enough of that, thank you very much. Bar that, Moldavia may unite with Russia, Romania, Ukraine, stay as it is, be divided into two or more states, I don't really care.

It's just my observation that majority of people in Moldavia don't want to unite with Romania. Could be wrong though, I'm certainly not an expert on the issue.

[rvg]

Speaking of Kosovo, it is my understanding that Northern Kosovo is still fully under Serb control and will remain that way. Is that the case?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Geography is geography I actually think we mean the same thing, but are both unclear in precise terminology. I mean that there are few meaningful 'hard' geographical divisions. Everything else is cultural geography.



It's just my observation that majority of people in Moldavia don't want to unite with Romania. Apparently, they don't indeed. And apparently, they prefer to live under comunist rule as well. And no, I do not feel fine about that, although we shall have to accept it.

I myself, of course, am embedded in a Western / EU / democracy discourse*. (Which leads me to support as well the pro-Romanian, pro-unification, pro-Nato side)

This in contrast to the anti-Western / Anti-EU / communist discourse. (To which belong pro-Russia, anti-Romanian, anti-NATO)


*The West, except much of the UK. Which supports the communists, Russia, and anti-NATO side, in a bid to placate domestic hyper anti-EU sentiments.:wall:

[Sarmatian]

Speaking of Kosovo, it is my understanding that Northern Kosovo is still fully under Serb control and will remain that way. Is that the case?

Well, all Serbs in Kosovo are in the north. They're trying to resist Albanian domination as much as possible, but far Northern Kosovo is far from Serbian control.



Apparently, they don't indeed. And apparently, they prefer to live under comunist rule as well. And no, I do not feel fine about that, although we shall have to accept it.

I myself, of course, am embedded in a Western / EU / democracy discourse*. (Which leads me to support as well the pro-Romanian, pro-unification, pro-Nato side)

This in contrast to the anti-Western / Anti-EU / communist discourse. (To which belong pro-Russia, anti-Romanian, anti-NATO)


*The West, except much of the UK. Which supports the communists, Russia, and anti-NATO side, in a bid to placate domestic hyper anti-EU sentiments.:wall:

You've gotta understand that Moldavia is the poorest state in Europe by far. You know they've hit rock bottom when Moldavians try to smuggle themselves to Serbia :dizzy2:. Most countries in the region are far from wealthy but even Albania is a heaven on earth compared to Moldavia. In a situation like that, it's not hard to understand why communism has support.

Anyway, we're talking about Moldavia. It's not Russia, there's hardly any danger of communist revolutions in Europe. But, in case it does happens, you may wanna go over some things (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB5x6cDMjao&feature=related), to be prepared. You know, just to be on the safe side... :laugh4:

[Jolt]

You've gotta understand that Moldavia is the poorest state in Europe by far. You know they've hit rock bottom when Moldavians try to smuggle themselves to Serbia :dizzy2:.

:laugh4:

Well Portugal has a large Moldovan diaspora as well. Around 15,000.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Maybe some more links (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8011760.stm) are in order
EU envoy visits troubled Moldova
By Oana Lungescu
BBC News, Brussels


The EU is sending a senior politician, Czech Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek, to Moldova amid continuing tensions over a disputed parliamentary election. The Czech leader, whose country holds the rotating EU presidency, is visiting a day after a recount confirmed that the governing Communist Party had won.

The election dispute triggered riots in Moldova's capital Chisinau this month. Moldova blamed neighbouring Romania, an EU member, for stoking the violence and expelled the Romanian ambassador.

Mr Topolanek is paying the first high-level EU visit to the country since the riots. The EU wants to show it cares about stability on its eastern border with Russia's former empire. It has urged all parties in Moldova to avoid the use of force and stressed the need to respect human rights. But the Czech prime minister has to tread a fine line - showing solidarity with Romania, a full EU member, while not alienating Moldova, Europe's poorest country, which is increasingly turning to Moscow for support.

This is a test of the EU's "Eastern partnership" policy to build closer ties with former Soviet republics, including Moldova, which is due to be officially launched at a summit in Prague next month. An EU official told the BBC that the recent unrest was even more reason to engage with Moldova. The European Parliament is considering whether to send a fact-finding mission and EU foreign ministers will debate the situation next week.

But behind the scenes, there is also concern about Romania's offer to speed up granting passports to up to a million Moldovans - a quarter of the country's population - which would give them access to the rest of the EU. Most of Moldova was part of Romania until the Soviet Union annexed it in 1940, and there remain close cultural links between the people. But it is hard to see how the passport offer would contribute to bolstering Moldova's stability, a diplomat said, and it will not gain Romania any sympathy in other EU countries.






You've gotta understand that Moldavia is the poorest state in Europe by far. You know they've hit rock bottom when Moldavians try to smuggle themselves to Serbia :dizzy2:. Most countries in the region are far from wealthy but even Albania is a heaven on earth compared to Moldavia. In a situation like that, it's not hard to understand why communism has support.I can see why they would vote as they did. Nevertheless, an election that yields a fifty percent communist vote is shocking. It will prove to be the cause of continued trouble, rather than a solution.


Anyway, we're talking about Moldavia. It's not Russia, there's hardly any danger of communist revolutions in Europe. But, in case it does happens, you may wanna go over some things (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB5x6cDMjao&feature=related), to be prepared. You know, just to be on the safe side... :laugh4:I will only ever sing the Marseillaise and Beethoven's Ninth. All other songs are the product of deranged depravity. :smash:

The enemies of the open society never sleep, they have a long memory too. We ourselves therefore, must be wary constantly, and think long term too, not losing track of our ultimate goal of a free, democratic and peaceful Europe.

[Vuk]

This thread is pretty sad. I have stayed out of it so far, because I am not familiar enough with the situation to make any contribution short of illeologically driven opinion that I may drop in a casual conversation. Many posters though seem to be giving firm opinion having no idea at all what they are talking about. :no:
I am gonna have to research this when I got time. :P

[Slyspy]

I actually think we mean the same thing, but are both unclear in precise terminology. I mean that there are few meaningful 'hard' geographical divisions. Everything else is cultural geography.


Apparently, they don't indeed. And apparently, they prefer to live under comunist rule as well. And no, I do not feel fine about that, although we shall have to accept it.

I myself, of course, am embedded in a Western / EU / democracy discourse*. (Which leads me to support as well the pro-Romanian, pro-unification, pro-Nato side)

This in contrast to the anti-Western / Anti-EU / communist discourse. (To which belong pro-Russia, anti-Romanian, anti-NATO)


*The West, except much of the UK. Which supports the communists, Russia, and anti-NATO side, in a bid to placate domestic hyper anti-EU sentiments.:wall:

Is this the good old Western idea of democracy for all, except when we don't like the results?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Is this the good old Western idea of democracy for all, except when we don't like the results?Why, as far as I am concerned, indeed it is. But I would rather name it the good old Western dilemma: should democracy be able to vote itself out of existence?

Can 50 percent +1 decide to curb the rights of the minority? Can fifty percent plus one democratically decide to murder the other fifty percent minus one?
Of course not. They can't, because 'democracy' does not, as is sometimes assumes, mean 'majority rule', but rather equality and the rule of law. To both of which, as history has shown, communism is an inveterate enemy.

[Vuk]

Why, as far as I am concerned, indeed it is. But I would rather name it the good old Western dilemma: should democracy be able to vote itself out of existence?

Can 50 percent +1 decide to curb the rights of the minority? Can fifty percent plus one democratically decide to murder the other fifty percent minus one?
Of course not. They can't, because 'democracy' does not, as is sometimes assumes, mean 'majority rule', but rather equality and the rule of law. To both of which, as history has shown, communism is an inveterate enemy.

The US government is designed exactly NOT to infringe on the rights of either the majority or minority, so you are quite correct. Government is supposed to stay out of people's affiars, or else the few rich will oppress the poor, or the majority will oppress the minority.

[Sarmatian]

I think it's a more of interests first, democracy second. If we can have both at the same time - great. If not, well, democracy will have to wait...

Seen on the example of Montenegro - Djukanovic is worse dictator than Milosevic ever was, but no one from democratic countries could care less as he's pro NATO... Good ol' case of Great Powers and the Balkan Question, the umpteenth part...

[Vuk]

I think it's a more of interests first, democracy second. If we can have both at the same time - great. If not, well, democracy will have to wait...

Seen on the example of Montenegro - Djukanovic is worse dictator than Milosevic ever was, but no one from democratic countries could care less as he's pro NATO... Good ol' case of Great Powers and the Balkan Question, the umpteenth part...

lol, this could potentially get very heated and very offtopic very quickly. :P

[Husar]

The thing is, we have to save Moldavia because I heard it has the best girls and my personal experience supports that.

Maybe if our governments had cared about Moldavia and helped them before they voted for a communist party, they wouldn't have done it, but now China and Russia might help them and strengthen the commies while the west boycotts and antagonizes them further until the carpet bombing starts. :dizzy2:

[Cronos Impera]

Just to start a little history thread with a little help of Geography.

Here is the Republic of Moldova (purple) without Transdneister and the rest of Moldova (brown) as a historical province of Romania.I come from the brown-and-green part of the map and internally I am also called a "Moldovan". Moldovenaul is also the name given to the highest peak in Romania (2545 m).Calling Romanians biased and racist about Moldova is like calling Americans biased against Texas which is obviously bull**** since Texans are Americans.
After nationality there is always regional pride (like SFTS has clearly shown here) but even Texans understand the difference between group and sub-group. There is no cultural shock when a Texan goes to New York or to California. A climate shock maybe, but not a national/ethnic shock.
http://www.restromania.ro/images/harti/wm_mari/Moldova1800Detailed_Mare.jpg
Romania is a nation-state founded by the unification between Moldova and Wallachia (not Moldova and Romania as some "Moldovans" claim) after the Paris Congress. Back then, the dominant superpowers ware Prussia, United Kingdom, Russia and Austria. Those European superpowers firstly consolidated Russia's claim over Bessarabia (gained from the Ottoman Empire in 1812) and then denied Romanians (Wallachians and Moldovans) the right to unite in a single national state, insisting on the creation of a federal state like the later Austro-Hungarian Empire.
Of course they didn't say anything about the possibility of electing a Domn (equivalent to monarch or king) in both states so the two national assemblies fromed "ad-hoc" or "on-the-spot" elected Alexandru Ioan Cuza ( a cavalry officer from Moldova) to rule over both Moldova and Wallachia.
This effectively meant the unification of Wallachia and Moldova into one state: Romania.
Then for the first time two parties formed : "the Romanian whigs" and "the Romanian torries" and both decided it was time to import a German Hohenzollern as King because they needed an unbiased arbiter to moderate political life. His military experience during the Prussio-Austrian War proved invaluable for The Independence War. Afterwards we had his nephew, Ferdiand and a Windsor Queen "Mary" during the Great War and Early Interwar Years before the Great Depression.
Then came the Republic and everything fell apart (the land reforms, free education plans, just about everything).
The Republic of Moldova <<Bessarabia>> (without Trandneister) comprised 36% of Moldova when it was annexed by Russia. Taking advantage of the Cyrillic alpahbet in use at that time and their superioar assimilation skills, Russians slowly managed to build a presence there during the Romanov Empire.
After the Great War, Bessarabia was the first historical province to unite with Romania, taking advantage of the chaos of the Civil War in Russia. This was ratified in the National Assembly of Bessarabia.
During and before the Interwar period, Moldovan was used in Romania just like Texan, Dixie, Yankee and Californian are used in USA, to help pinpoint a place of birth rather than a nationality (since you can speak of a Moldovan nationality like you can call dixie a separate nationality in the US, dispite some subtle accent differences).
The Comintern took advantage of this small distinction and used it to destroy Romania, percieved as a threat to Stalin's plans in the same way as Poland or Finland.
Thus MSSR was created in today's Transdneister region as a laboratory for the creation of the Moldavian ethnicity with the purpose of creating a Moldavian identity separate from Romanian so that these "test-tubes" would declare war on Romania and "liberate" Besarabia, Bukovina and ultimately Moldova itself from the "Romanian opressors".The "founding fathers" of the Republic ware mostly communist dissidendts and Soviet KGB. After the creation of the MSSR the Soviets embarked on a series of lingvistic experiments like those carried on English to develop Newspeak.The Romanian language spoken was injected with Russian neologisms, stripped of obvious "Latin" elements and thousands of words ware eliminated from the basic vocabulary untill only regionalisms survived.The rest was filled with Russian/Slavonic terms. This is how "Moldavian" as a language different from Romanian was born. However, The Great Purges of the thirties halted this experiments as the commisars entrusted with their development ware sent to gulags for Trotzkym.
WW2 allowed them such a victory as Soviet forces occupied Bessarabia, North Bukovina and Herta. Millions of Romanians from those teritories ware sent to gulags, settled in Syberia or Kazakhstan or simply killed. However in Bessarabia and Bukovina still remained over two million Romanians.
The collapse of the Soviet Union created an opportunity for a reunification with Romania as it happened previously in 1918, or for MSSR to join Ukraine or even Russia. Faced with brakeaway Gagauz and Transdneister regions, the liders of that period decided that sitting naked bith the buttocks between two hulls was the best option.
Thus The Republic of Moldova was created, born of a Romanian motherland and a Russian fatherland this bastard state survives only by recieving aid from both (it's like international courts declaring a child an orphan and demanding the parents pay full child support).
While being independent Moldova's official policy has been to censor any Romanian material with "Romanian" written on it from being published.
After all, both countries share most historical and cultural figures (except those which ware born during the Soviet era), the name of the currency, and almost anything that was not forged during the Soviet occupation.
The consolidation of independece found the newly-liberated "Moldovans" facing the fascist Romanians (mostly elders from the Interwar period and a few pro-Romanian youth who benefited from the free scholarships).Their response was MURDER.Many champions of Romania ware either expelled or murdered. The execution method is always a car accident (either the victim is a pedestrian and gets killed on the pavement by an annonymous driver or he's pushed in a tree). Among the victims of the Republic ware Ion Aldea & Doina Teodorici and Grigore Vieru. "Moldova suverana" always sends letters to the mourning families expressing their grief and regret and their death is forgotten.
Even worse, to ensure the survival of Moldova as an independent republic, those s***heads have started to produce their own version of the Minitrue, with Vasile Stati as head speaker for a non-existent language.

Imagine SFTS you're Texan. Imagine some Mexican gringos escaping extradition forming their autonomous republic in Mexico. Imagine those gringos proclaming New Texas and claming you're assimilated and demanding the immediate incorporation of Texas into Mexico to save the Texan nation from American assimilation.Who cares Texans are Americans, the Republic of New Texas suits our interests to destabalise the region. Now imagine that Gringo telling you you're not Texan for refusing to accept an independent Texas. Wouldn't that make you take a gun and ******.

Moldovan independence is not like Austria's case. Austria and Prussia ware independent European powers which ware so influient and mighty they could act like poles of power in the German world.
Moldova's situation after independence ressembles that of FYROM. They claim ancient origins, they claim Romanian land, they have separatist regions that would soon declare their own independence and claim the highest poverty rates in Europe for that cause. Most heavy industry is situated in Transdneister so Moldova's only exports remain wine and brandy.
As an independent state Moldova will never join the EU or anything. Its policy is to remain "politically neutral" and that means getting in a position to recieve international aid without having to join anyone (neither Russia, Ukraine, or Romania for that matter).

[Cronos Impera]

Here is a political cartoon describing the stalemete.
http://media2.gruprc.ro/photo/thumbs/800_600/042009/907e6b2b3c7f751a9561e8691552ed7b.jpg

[Prince Cobra]

I see your point but what do you suggest? What do you think that Romania shall do? Bulgaria has similiar story with Macedonia, Greece and Turkey with Cyprus, Serbia with Republika Sarbska in Bosnia (bad spelling), Hungary with Vojvodina and the Hungarian minority in Romania.

I think the only option is peaceful and economic collaboration between states + common culture programs and such nice things can show the Romanian (in your case) people they are not forgotten. If there is a violation of human rights then an active foreign policy can put this government on pressure + the perspective of EU integration (though there are certain, if not a lot, problems; this in long turn) can also help a lot.

I think force will be useless and harmful.

P.S. I am fed up with conflicts for changing the borders. As if such conflicts bring something different than suffering to the both sides.

[Jolt]

Portugal also has the same problem. The rest of Spain should belong to us. We are superior. Any other state in Iberia would've been crushed by the hegemon of the peninsula. Just look at Italy! So if Portugal annexes Spain, only then will the Iberian Peninsula become the great power of the world.

[Sarmatian]

Portugal also has the same problem. The rest of Spain should belong to us. We are superior. Any other state in Iberia would've been crushed by the hegemon of the peninsula. Just look at Italy! So if Portugal annexes Spain, only then will the Iberian Peninsula become the great power of the world.

Nah, that's barbaric. We should organize football matches, and whoever wins conquers the opponent.

[Louis VI the Fat]

There is no cultural shock when a Texan goes to New York B..but in New York they eat with a knife and fork...

[rasoforos]

Calling Romanians biased and racist about Moldova is like calling Americans biased against Texas which is obviously bull**** since Texans are Americans.



Yes, if you consider Moldovans to the Romanians. Which the Moldovans do not (How many times do we have to repeat it?)

I can claim that the Chinese are Greeks and demand Shanghai to be united with our glorious Greek 'Motherland' but that is just silly, it won't make it happen, and the Chinese will quite rightly tell me to :daisy: off (yes like the Moldovans do to Romanians!)...





Romania is a nation-state founded by the unification between Moldova and Wallachia.




Great! So if we rename Romania into Wallachia then it is problem solved! No need to assimilate any Moldovans.




Thus The Republic of Moldova was created, born of a Romanian motherland and a Russian fatherland this bastard state survives only by recieving aid from both (it's like international courts declaring a child an orphan and demanding the parents pay full child support).



Now now, to write a 2000 word essay on Moldovlachia just to bash them as a bastard state is uncalled for...

Also you should consider how much of my tax money is going to Romania as EU aid so I only get 20 Romanian people a day pestering me to clean my windscreen at the traffic lights for coins.

As I said before, Romania should clear it's own mess first and make sure it provides enough for it's citizens before caring about how poor Moldova is.




As an independent state Moldova will never join the EU or anything. Its policy is to remain "politically neutral" and that means getting in a position to recieve international aid without having to join anyone (neither Russia, Ukraine, or Romania for that matter).



Yes, it is called diplomacy...

...and I do not see a whole lot of trouble if they do not want to join. They have the right to, same as they have the right to not want to be annexed by Romania.

Cheers

[Prince Cobra]

I am sorry but this goes slightly to the other extreme. I will have to say few words.


Yes, if you consider Moldovans to the Romanians. Which the Moldovans do not (How many times do we have to repeat it?)

I can claim that the Chinese are Greeks and demand Shanghai to be united with our glorious Greek 'Motherland' but that is just silly, it won't make it happen, and the Chinese will quite rightly tell me to :daisy: off (yes like the Moldovans do to Romanians!)...




Well, I think the closest case is Macedonia/Bulgaria and Cyprus/Greece and Turkey. I think there are many historical reasons to call the people of Moldavia people with "Romanian" origin. What is Romania: an union between Wallachia and Moldavia. Yet, this does not mean Romania shall annex Moldavia. In the same way as Cyprus was not annexed by Greece or Macedonia by Bulgaria. It's not how the modern policy shall work!






Now now, to write a 2000 word essay on Moldovlachia just to bash them as a bastard state is uncalled for...

Also you should consider how much of my tax money is going to Romania as EU aid so I only get 20 Romanian people a day pestering me to clean my windscreen at the traffic lights for coins.

As I said before, Romania should clear it's own mess first and make sure it provides enough for it's citizens before caring about how poor Moldova is.


You are right Romania and Bulgaria (I am Bulgarian btw) failed in many things. Yet, this does not mean they are lost causes. In the same way as Greece was not a lost cause after the WW2. We leave in one peninsula. Of course, the Romanian and Bulgarian people and politicians shall not sit idle but be as active as possible to develop their countries. For you are right, we can not rely on foreign money.

About paying money. If certain conditions are met, I see nothing bad in the near future Bulgaria to pay money for the integration say of Macedonia or Moldavia. But of course, EU is not charity.

And please, I am fed up with the image of the Bulgarians and Romanians as illegal workers or second-hand people. This is only one part of the picture. I know quite a good number people who earn their money (both in Bulgaria and abroad) honestly.



Yes, it is called diplomacy...

Cheers

Diplomacy is the key. Here I agree 100 per cent. Otherwise, I agree Cronos Impera was quite extreme in certain thoughts. :bow:

[edyzmedieval]

It's called capitalism for a reason - call me a bit of an extremist over here, but if the people are lazy and don't want to work, why should we give them aid? I would gladly help those who cannot work, because they cannot be employed for different reasons, but why those who can but who don't want to? My point is that we care about Moldavia because they're Romanians, Moldavian is simply a dialect (not even) of Romanian, and lots of Moldavians are Romanian. Why should we care for those who are in deep **** because of their inability?

And, no, the Moldovans do want unification with Romania, it's just that the votes are rigged by Voronin and his gang of happy commies who want to kiss Putin's backside so they can lounge in their big palaces and Mercedes Benz's.

So yeah, it should belong to us, we lost it because of the USSR in 1945, for the same reason we lost the Cadrilater to Bulgaria, Bucovina to Ukraine and nothern Transylvania to Hungary. And before they were 100% Romanian. If it wouldn't have been for those lousy Russki commies, then Romania would be a totally different place.

Bucharest was called Little Paris for a reason.

[Cronos Impera]

Please Edyz, you don't support this converstion in any way by adopting a partisan stance. You still need to master the force before you use it in such a sensitive issue. Good luck and please try be more mature. I don't militate for the annexation of MSSR by Romania (that piece of land shall be named Moldova over my dead body). I am simply for the dismantling of this state, not unification (though that is an alternative).
By the way Hellas, the Moldovans have a case for a separate ethnicity as FYROM citizens have to be called Macedonians. Not to mention the two languages are nearly identical and that the recognition of Moldova separate from Romania emplies the same revisionism from Moldova over Romania and Ukraine as Macedonia currently has.
I'm not implying MSSR citizens should forcibly unite with Romania but I hate seeing how their independence figures try to dismantle Romanian cultural unity and ultimately antagonise Romanian citizens (remember the Moldovan struggle for a separate identity meant adding revisions to the portraits of already famous historical Romanian people).It's like FYROM claims Alexander the Great while cursing Hellas. In Hellas this is hardly an issue as FYROM has a different language and culture that Hellas, but Romania's culture is almost identical to that of Moldova.It's like S.Cyprus claming the whole Ionian Sea islands from greece claming a Dorian heritage.
And last, you Greeks should know better than anyone that Romanians/Wallachians/Vlachs/Moldavians speak the same language. You ruled over Wallachia and Moldavia for over two centuries. Romania is called Romania simply because after the Ottoman conquest the native elite was slowly replaced with a Hellenic one. That Hellenic elite (see The Fanariots, Cantacuzenos in Romania and so on) came mostly from Adrianopole/Constantinopole...a region you call Romania (see old maps of Europe)

[KarlXII]

Here is a political cartoon describing the stalemete.
http://media2.gruprc.ro/photo/thumbs/800_600/042009/907e6b2b3c7f751a9561e8691552ed7b.jpg

I see a black, U.S. cowboy, an angry EU with a clock, and a lot of other images that looks like something out of a hippy kids Saturday morning cartoon. I cannot read the text, but I don't think I want to, given your stance.

[edyzmedieval]

Please Edyz, you don't support this converstion in any way by adopting a partisan stance. You still need to master the force before you use it in such a sensitive issue. Good luck and please try be more mature. I don't militate for the annexation of MSSR by Romania (that piece of land shall be named Moldova over my dead body). I am simply for the dismantling of this state, not unification (though that is an alternative).

Give me the explicit "I want to annex Moldavia" and I shall leave this thread. "Should" doesn't mean I want to annex, so get your facts right before.


And last, you Greeks should know better than anyone that Romanians/Wallachians/Vlachs/Moldavians speak the same language. You ruled over Wallachia and Moldavia for over two centuries. Romania is called Romania simply because after the Ottoman conquest the native elite was slowly replaced with a Hellenic one. That Hellenic elite (see The Fanariots, Cantacuzenos in Romania and so on) came mostly from Adrianopole/Constantinopole...a region you call Romania (see old maps of Europe)

Your point on this being?

[rasoforos]

[B]

By the way Hellas, the Moldovans have a case for a separate ethnicity as FYROM citizens have to be called Macedonians.

It's like FYROM claims Alexander the Great while cursing Hellas. In Hellas this is hardly an issue as FYROM has a different language and culture that Hellas, but Romania's culture is almost identical to that of Moldova.



Imagine if, in the name of FYROM trying to 'borrow' (in need for a better word) our history, we decide to annex them claiming they are somehow Greek. What would that make us?

But this is besides the point. It does not matter if they (Moldovans) speak the same language, have the same culture and share ancestors. What matters is whether they feel like they are a different country or not. And they do. Canada speaks English and is culturaly close to the U.S.A (sort of) and most of their citizens come from similar Anglo-Saxonic stock but this does not provide a justification for annexation.

The Moldovans do not want to join Romania and the story should end there in my book.






And please, I am fed up with the image of the Bulgarians and Romanians as illegal workers or second-hand people. This is only one part of the picture. I know quite a good number people who earn their money (both in Bulgaria and abroad) honestly.


Stephen Asen

Quite right. I am not implying anything about how hard working they are. We have Bulgarians and Moldovans and Bulgarians on our staff and they are good hardworking nice people. What I wanted to imply is that Romania needs to settle their issues at home before they partake on a quest of imperialistic acquisitions. When so many millions of a country's population are forced into a life of destitution it is hardly a time to ask another country to join them in misery.

P.S If you visit Athens anytime soon drop me a PM ;)

[Cronos Impera]

Imagine if, in the name of FYROM trying to 'borrow' (in need for a better word) our history, we decide to annex them claiming they are somehow Greek. What would that make us?

But this is besides the point. It does not matter if they (Moldovans) speak the same language, have the same culture and share ancestors. What matters is whether they feel like they are a different country or not. And they do. Canada speaks English and is culturaly close to the U.S.A (sort of) and most of their citizens come from similar Anglo-Saxonic stock but this does not provide a justification for annexation.

The Moldovans do not want to join Romania and the story should end there in my book.

Than why doesn't Hellas support the independence of Transdneister like it supports "RM".
Transdneister is a working republic like MSSR, has all the requirements for being considered a state and not a micronation (see Sealand for reference). And that status has been consolidated through an independence war, not a political agreement between former Soviet republics.And they at least had the decency to create a completely new identity for them, and didn't steal Romanian/Russian history.
They even have their own national hero and Government buildings like any other nation. They even have 3 soccer teams.

Those people do not want to join MSSR yet the EU tries to glue them into a forcefull union so Russia can withdraw an army stationed there and NATO expansion to proceed without any jeopardy in the area. Yet Transdneister can stand on its own without any international aid.

Proclaim Transdneister an independent state "de jure" and MSSR loses all the heavy industry + a nice stadium. But we don't want MSSR to decompose as a state so we just keep denying Transdneister's existance. MSSR, we hope is West-orientated and democratic so we'll keep that wreack afloat no matter what it takes and no matter how the independence of MSSR affects the lives of millions.
Remember this state has just backstabed its closest ally both in the Transdneistria War and arrested/imposed visas/assasinated/demonised it antagonising the region. Imagine FYROM politicians blaming Greeks for the Yugoslav Wars and killing Greek citizens or citizenship apllicants. What can you do, you can't just invade/partition FYROM. Those people name themselves Macedonians, not greeks. It would be a sign of Greek Imperialism.

And corruption/crime is a hell in both so I can hardly see a problem for allowing Transdneister independence. With a little UN help Transdneister could soon surpass MSSR in terms of human rights.
Even the Gagauz in Comrat want to further their autonomy towards complete independence.

Canada is a viable state with an individual history. Such is the case for Austria/Germany/Switzerland.

You may consider me a "Moldovan" as well. Like you consider yourself an Athenian and your neighbour may consider himself/herself a Spartan, people in Romania consider themselves either Moldovan/Oltenian/Muntenian/Maramuresean/Bukovinean/Timisorean....when they go to a pub and bitch about their birthplace. But when it comes to complete a survey they complete "Romanian". It's not that hard for a Muntenian to speak "Moldovanwise" as 48% of The Voievodate of Moldova is in Romania and when a Romanian meets a Romanian he is either Moldovan/Oltenian.......but when a Romanian meets a Hellenes he is "Romanian".

And the people who you met with that claimed they ware "Moldovan" and not Romanian ware either proles or thinkpol. Proles swollow every ideology that suits them (they don't care go around the corner) while thinkpol are like the ones that have been responsible for the execution of at least 10 pro-Romanian MSSR intelectuals.

If you want to see the real "Moldova" come to Botosani/Ipotesti/Suceava. Good wine/good food/geuinue Moldovan experience without the "anti-fscist" ideological content you see beyond the river Prut. You'll understand than who's Moldovan and who is a Comintern claming he's Moldovan so he could establish a Russian Krajina.

[Louis VI the Fat]

It's threads like this that keep me coming back to the Backroom. :2thumbsup:


We all have our little pet subjects. Mine is democracy and the EU in Europe. Below, a picture of protesters raising the EU flag over the Parliament in Chisinau. A glorious sight.


https://img13.imageshack.us/img13/350/chisinaueu.jpg (https://img13.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chisinaueu.jpg)

This being Moldova, the protesters were arrested, severly beaten, and tortured by the Moldovan authorities.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Moldovan music!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9MzKJak_ZQ&feature=related) :2thumbsup:

Chipul tãu si dragostea din tei.


Edit: Which proves that anything sounds cool in a Latin language. Now that I think about it, Romanian has quite a nice, soft 'ring' to it. Great language.

[Cronos Impera]

Îmi amintesc de ochii tăi.
......
And I didn't even have to go to a Romanian-Moldavian dictionary for that.

https://img13.imageshack.us/img13/350/chisinaueu.jpg

It it just me, or does anybody find suspicious that the policemen allow them to raise the EU flag while doing nothing and than "arrest" them.
It looks to me like a set-up so the authorities could blame the protesters for attacking a public institution so they could shoot them at will.
It's nothing to cheer about actually. If you've read 1984 this tactic is simmilar enough to that used by O'Brian to lure Winston out of his defensive stance, to surprise him off-guard and eliminate him. Than you get the 2 minutes hate in the news bulletin about Romanian vandals attacking Moldova, so people there feel even more "Moldovan".
The other thing I remember was that during the protests the borders ware closed for Romanian citizens so very few, if any ware in MSSR. Those who had arrived in MSSR ware either arrested evacuated. But despite this, Voronin claims that "Moldovan freedom and sovereingty ware threatened by Romanian bandits and European agencies.I'll impose visas on Romanian citizens."

[rasoforos]

Than why doesn't Hellas support the independence of Transdneister like it supports "RM".



For the last time Cronos. I state my opinion, I do not represent my country. And I am also heavily biased because of bi-annual Moldovan Brandy bribes. Jesus Christ... :beam:




[quote]

Canada is a viable state with an individual history. Such is the case for Austria/Germany/Switzerland.



Who judges when a country is viable or not? Some would say Romania with it's huge corruption is not really viable. Some mustachioed guy back in the 40's thought that a lot countries are not viable and should thus be incorporated into the Reich. Do you really want to take that path?

Individual history also is a relative term. If we were to annex countries just because their individual history is short then there should only be Greece, Egypt and the Chinese in the world...come now, that sounds a bit silly doesn't it?




You may consider me a "Moldovan" as well. Like you consider yourself an Athenian and your neighbour may consider himself/herself a Spartan, p



Oh I assure you I would never consider myself an Athenian. Shoot me if I ever do. What a thing to say... :no:





And the people who you met with that claimed they ware "Moldovan" and not Romanian ware either proles or thinkpol.




It is actually the MNDRC (Moldovan National Dissasociation from Romania Conspiracy). They have devised this cunning and evil plan whereby they sent a bunch of Moldovans to a Greek guy to convince him to become their champion. Their hapless victim (me that is,now fully impregnated by MNDRC propaganda) will now unknowingly promote MNDRC interests and win, thus securing an independent Moldova and complete Moldovan domination in the international Brandy market!

What are the statistical odds? Yes, I know...

[Cronos Impera]

How can I bribe you then? :beam:
Palinka, tuica, afinata, caisata, visinata, wine, beer.
Sends an emissary with a large cargo of palinka to Rasoforos.Waiting for conformation.

[Sarmatian]

It it just me, or does anybody find suspicious that the policemen allow them to raise the EU flag while doing nothing and than "arrest" them.


Fox Mulder, call your office please...

He's the only one who can get to the bottom of this. It might take him several seasons, but I don't see another way...

[rasoforos]

How can I bribe you then? :beam:
Palinka, tuica, afinata, caisata, visinata, wine, beer.
Sends an emissary with a large cargo of palinka to Rasoforos.Waiting for conformation.

Little bit of all would do. (I had to do some google searches but it all looks really great to me :2thumbsup: ).

Now let me PM you my address and let's get Moldova back to the Motherland :medievalcheers:

[Strike For The South]

This beats the normal talk we have about Western Europe. I like these fireworks, so much passion from you folks. Good show :popcorn:

[Aemilius Paulus]

Whew, that is quite a bit of pages there, and I do not have time to read them, so I am not going to argue for anything.

However, I have lived in Moldova for quite some time (month or even more) every summer since my uncle and grandparents still live there. My relatives are scattered all over Russia, Ukraine, and Moldova due to the breakup of USSR. So I know the country well, its culture, its outlooks on Romani and EU, etc. If anyone has a point to contest, they can ask me if they wish. All I will say is that from what I have read in the thread, there does not seem to be any Moldovans here (only Romanians - hardly unbiased!) and that quite some people made rather inaccurate statements that were caused by their unfamiliarity with the country and the situation.

In any case, I support the reunification, as I always favour unification of similar entities. For all I care, Belarus should join Russia, All three Baltic countries should also cohere, and etc. It may not be realistic, but people need to learn how to get along. Also, the Moldovan communists are just a name, mainly designed to appeal to the nostalgic pensioners remembering the better days. Economist describes them as "centre right". I am pretty sure someone mentioned this already, right?

And no joke about the "better days". Moldova was hundred times more well-off during USSR than it is right now. I have lived there enough to realise it. Everything in the country is a relic of that age, and it is all falling apart.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Also, the Moldovan communists are just a name, mainly designed to appeal to the nostalgic pensioners remembering the better days. Economist describes them as "centre right". I am pretty sure someone mentioned this already, right?


The Economist might, but there are a few things leading me to question their analysis. Firstly, they are part of the Party of the European Left, which is a fairly far-left association of parties. Secondly, though they may not be communist in the way that the Economist classifies it, calling them centre-right seems to be like calling Die Linke similar to the CSU.

[Aemilius Paulus]

It is not just Economist. I employed them since they make a decent appeal to authority, and because they are my favourite magazine, to which I happen to subscribe. I have lived in the country, as I have said, and I have observed their politics. They really are not communists. Believe me, it is just a name. Their government is in no way leftist, not even socialist. Everyone in the country knows that. Even the pensioners admit that, although I am not certain to what degree.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I'm curious - do you classify Stalinists as communists/socialists/left-wing?

[Aemilius Paulus]

I'm curious - do you classify Stalinists as communists/socialists/left-wing?
Well, I think of the political spectrum as sort of a circle. Far right (Hitler) and far left (Stalin) had quite a bit of similarities. Then again, most of that was their authoritarianism, which has nothing to do with their political, left-right orientation. Officially, Stalinists are left wing, and it does reflect in their radical wealth distribution and government-ownership-of-everything practice.

Why is there a reason to believe the Stalinists are not left wing, or communists to be more precise?? Sure, their authoritarianism may not reflect Marx's views, but they are still left wing in their fiscal policies, which is the main part of communism. And communism is only unique in its economic aspects, not political (very few differences there).

[KarlXII]

Agree with SFTS. This whole thread is entertainment and just makes me continue to believe what I already do about Balkan politics.

[rasoforos]

This beats the normal talk we have about Western Europe. I like these fireworks, so much passion from you folks. Good show :popcorn:

That goes without saying...western Europe is boring.

In general, it is important to take things not too seriously, and to be willing to accept well placed alcohol bribes when the time is right.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Well, I think of the political spectrum as sort of a circle. Far right (Hitler) and far left (Stalin) had quite a bit of similarities. Then again, most of that was their authoritarianism, which has nothing to do with their political, left-right orientation. Officially, Stalinists are left wing, and it does reflect in their radical wealth distribution and government-ownership-of-everything practice.

Why is there a reason to believe the Stalinists are not left wing, or communists to be more precise?? Sure, their authoritarianism may not reflect Marx's views, but they are still left wing in their fiscal policies, which is the main part of communism. And communism is only unique in its economic aspects, not political (very few differences there).

:bow:

[Sarmatian]

That goes without saying...western Europe is boring.

In general, it is important to take things not too seriously, and to be willing to accept well placed alcohol bribes when the time is right.

How can you accept foreign alcohol as a bribe when you have ouzo and metaxa right there? You call yourself Greek? You're a disgrace to... to... King Otto!

[rasoforos]

How can you accept foreign alcohol as a bribe when you have ouzo and metaxa right there? You call yourself Greek? You're a disgrace to... to... King Otto!

I am do decadent. Forsaking the ancient and glorious booze of my ancestors. But as we say, something foreign is always tastier. :beam:

:2thumbsup: :barrel: :medievalcheers: :greece:

[edyzmedieval]

Another characteristic of the East - one bribe and everything is forgotten. :beam:

[Cronos Impera]

Any bribe which I recieve must contain at least a bottle of Jaegermeister, two pints of Unicum, one gallon of wine and three tablespoons of golddust on top.

[Brenus]

"Another characteristic of the East - one bribe and everything is forgotten" UK is an Eastern Country?
Well, no, because all what the MPs are cashing is legal... They do nothing wrong...:beam: