Unit Balance

[pevergreen]

Its true, units are not balanced. CA will balance to what they perceive as correct in time, but I want the opinion of everyone.

My intention for this thread is for it to contain suggestions only, not discussion on if the person is right, or historically accurate.

The ideal post would be something like:

British Line Infantry:
- Increase range
- Decrease morale
- Increase accuracy


If I get any help, I'll be using it as a platform to begin the balance changes in VEM (Vanilla Extended Mod) Hopefully, over time, it can become like the original VanillaMod.

:bow: Thank you.

[Miracle]

Cuirassiers:

Increase defence to 11
Decrease attack to 14
Increase morale to 14

Heavy Cavalry:

Decrease defence to 9
Increase attack to 16

Hakkapeliita:

Increase defence to 8

Provincial Cavalry/Gendarmerie/Yeomanry/etc:

Add Garrison Police Bonus

Beylik Janissary Musketeers:

Increase defence to 10
Increase attack to 10

Beylik Janissary Grenadiers:

Increase defence to 13
Increase attack to 13

Nizam-I Cedit Infantry:

Increase defence to 15

Bowmen:

Nerf Accuracy/Lethality

All regular musket light infantry:

Increase range to 100

4-inch Mortar Battery:

Nerf Accuracy

Light Galley/Galley:

Remove "KO" ability

[Obadiah]

In general, range should be increased a bit for all units- it just seems nuts that you can charge head in and often only suffer a single volley before reaching melee. Maybe this is historically accurate, but I think a 15%-20% increase would make the game better as units engage at range sooner.

[Melvish]

Range, stats, soldiers per unit tweaks and more.
Have fun.

t3h 1InK (http://www.4shared.com/file/100624018/f7a52a0a/db_online.html)

[Beskar]

Being honest, it isn't unit balance, it is the fact that Line Infantry are the de facto unit.

[Oaty]

Cavalry needs reduced morale, I set up squares near my artillery the cavalry bounces off of them loses near half the unit runs in the middle of my formation and still has the morale to attack my artillery

[mmk]

Cavalry needs reduced morale, I set up squares near my artillery the cavalry bounces off of them loses near half the unit runs in the middle of my formation and still has the morale to attack my artillery

I would agree here.

In my opinion the militia/town guards should have their battle values decreased.

[Khorak]

In my opinion the militia/town guards should have their battle values decreased.

Or much, much, much poorer morale. The problem I see with them is that my fire by rank Line Infantry mash them horribly up to a certain point, once their unit reaches a small enough size they take fewer and fewer casualties to every salvo while still managing to inflict casualties on my unit.

Through sheer, tenacious attrition I've regularly watched militia units take out half a Line Infantry unit, one on one, up to the point 80% of the militiamen are dead......then five minutes later they've rallied and come back!

Two things for me then:

1) Militia units need poorer morale. The legendary 'chain rout' should be highly applicable to militia, they should not stay on the field when they see everyone else running as well, whereas trained soldiery should feel little shock in seeing militia run.

2) All units should recieve a more significant morale hit for casualties. You do not watch half the men you started a fight with get blown away without starting to seriously question your will to keep fighting. 50% of the numbers you started with dying is a good time to apply a more severe casualty based morale shock.

[mmk]

Or much, much, much poorer morale. The problem I see with them is that my fire by rank Line Infantry mash them horribly up to a certain point, once their unit reaches a small enough size they take fewer and fewer casualties to every salvo while still managing to inflict casualties on my unit.

Through sheer, tenacious attrition I've regularly watched militia units take out half a Line Infantry unit, one on one, up to the point 80% of the militiamen are dead......then five minutes later they've rallied and come back!


I noticed the same over and over again. It is a bit annoying to see your highly trained line units not being able to handle militia/town watch in open battle.

[ncbeach]

dragoons should have their charge value and h2h value reduced.... up their range to 90

grenzers unit size should be reduced, or reload times increased..

mortars and rockets should fire 1 projectile at a time... or be 4 times as expensive..

art in late era needs to be more expensive or have a reduced unit size.

all factions should have a lite infantry unit capable of 125 range..
all factions should have a lite dragoon style cav..
all factions should have a horse regiment style cav..

imo, all mp playable factions should have the 5 types of core units.. art, long range, heavy inf, skirmish cav, all purpose cav.. balance these core aspects well and it will free you to tweek faction specific units like grenzers.. and the likes..

balance to me is the way the rock paper scissors work.. and the cost of the units.. just because you get beat by something doesnt mean its unblanced... it could mean your using your assets wrong.. to really have input on balance.. you need to spend many hours comparing units 1v1... in different ranks... formations.. watch for reloads.. replay some that may have gone either way.. when you have a good understanding of all the unit mechanics then you will have base to start building an opinion of what might improve the overall game quality if changed.


Miracle- although it would be simply cool to run over people with the turks.. i liked to use them in mtw... at this time period it would be rather absurd. perhaps since the musketeers cant shoot it out with euro style line inf.. give them the light infantry ability... then they could skirmish and spread out.. would make things interesting..

Obadiah- the maps are way too small to reduce range... id support that 100% if the maps were 4 times larger.. or the unit scale was half of what it is now

Beskar- actually there are 2 main types of infantry.. heavy style infantry such as line inf and lite style inf such as jagers, grenzers, and longrifles... all top generals ive faced bring both.. if you really want balance.. then you should rejoice in this.. bravo ca! bravo! finally you bring us full circle.. from simple to complicated back to simple. simple is by far the best way to achieve balance and it makes for excellent, exciting play.

Oaty-what cavalry are you referring too.. or all of them in general?? in any case i must disagree.. moral of cav is balanced with other units.. changing it means changing everything.. or would you rather play rock, paper.. and lets forget about scissors.... and next time you want to protect something from cav... lay down some spikes...

[Turbosatan]

I like your post, ncbeach -- don't agree with every point necessarily but I like what you said about the mechanics & cavalry (cavalry has been nerfed anyway, I certainly don't think it needs to be hamstrung some more) & how in this type of game having less units (balanced) rather than eleventy trillion different types that do similar jobs is the important thing.

Sorry, just thought I'd chime in.

[Miracle]

although it would be simply cool to run over people with the turks.. i liked to use them in mtw... at this time period it would be rather absurd. perhaps since the musketeers cant shoot it out with euro style line inf.. give them the light infantry ability... then they could skirmish and spread out.. would make things interesting..

Beylik Janissary Musketeers already have 50 accuracy and 30 reloading skill - better than even British Line Infantry. Apparently, CA thinks their Janissary training indeed allows them to shoot it out with Europeans. But their melee stats (9 Att 8 Def) are so poor by line infantry standards that they just get run over by cavalry or any unit with good melee. Plus, they use swords and not bayonets. For supposedly "elite" infantry these are significant issues. Combined with the fact that Isarelys (overpriced Ottoman starting line infantry) are no better than Euro militia and the problem is compounded.

The issue isn't running over people with the Ottomans. It's about making their overall weak roster on par with some of the bigger European factions. For example, the best Ottoman defensive line infantry are Nizam-I Cedit Infantry (45 Acc 30 Re 8 Att 13 Def 11 Mor). Available only in the mid/late game, they are barely better than standard Euro line infantry which are available from the start. And when compared to Prussian and British Line, they are practically inferior. The Ottomans have absolutely no equivalent to guard infantry. And I haven't even touched on the incredibly weak Deli Horsemen yet...

The Ottomans are one of the harder factions to play and you're advocating giving their line infantry the incredibly useless and bugged "light infantry mode." Bravo.