The Ultimate Battle Turning Unit

[Cute Wolf]

Means what unit that you usually use for ending a battle effectively (such as giving a fatal blow to enemy line, causing massive routs)... I myself prefer to send the Gaesahtae or Tidanotae to give them a final blows..... it made the enemies fled rather quickly... especially after tiresome fights...

[vartan]

Cataphract charges...what? I'm only Armenian! haha!

[Raygereio]

I don't use elephants ever, so that's out.
So far I've only played eastern factions seriously, so for me infantry is used to either pin the enemy down with their sarissas or sword/shields or soften them up with arrows, stones, javelins.
But cavalry (especially the cataphracts) is my enemy-go-smash! units.

[Apázlinemjó]

Fire rain by archers :candle:

[Zett]

No Cataphracts, but heavy cavalery is my favourite battleturning unit. The moment of impact and then the mass rout...I love it.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Banzai!]

Where is the scythed chariot option?????

https://img206.imageshack.us/img206/6365/naked1os4.jpg
https://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5185/naked3sd9.jpg

[seienchin]

HAHAHAH Cool Pictures of the chariots ^^.
How do you manage to kill anyone?? My skythed chariots only throw them into the air and never kill anybody, except when they are routing....
My favourite are the Elephants, cause they can turn around everything.:book:

[chenkai11]

Banzai!, did you changed the stats of your chariots?

[Elcmar]

Picked Cataphracts, but usually any heavy cavalry charge into the back of a tired enemy works - especially when they've been pinned down by sarrisae (sp) for ages, even medium cav can do the job too :smash:

[HunGeneral]

Cataphract charges above all. - Since I mostly play with nomads + AS but I like heavy cavalry charges for all factions (I always try to get Brihenten or any heavy horsemen for the romans).

Its very dramatic how a whole army can brake from a charge of 2-3 units of heavy cavalry:dizzy2:.

I like tindanotte/geasetae a lot aswell but I haven't used them so much.

[Cute Wolf]

ouw, personally, I also use cataphract / HC charges, but in my opinion, routing them with "frightening" unit is much more the Ultimate weapon.... I use cataphract charges usually to soften the flanks before the line clash... but that's just a style of fight...

And a line full of Gaesatae will make a scythed chariot unit instantly flee.... :laugh4:
I didn't add the chariots because it's included in the cataphract / HC type...

[the man with no name]

I like any heavy cav so i'll just say cataphracts.

[Silence Hunter]

Heavy cavalry for me. Just love seeing hetairoi charge the backs of doomed enemy forces. makes me feel warm and good inside :yes:

[Maion Maroneios]

Nothing can match Elephants in causing masive chain routs. I mean, pin the enemy down with your phalanx, and sweep parallel to your sarrisae with your elephants. If they don't immediately die, they will do so very soon for sure.

Maion

[Fluvius Camillus]

Awesome pic Banzai!

Another way to make awesome pics is by playing vanilla. You as Carthage or the Seleucid Empire with Armoured Elephants vs. the Roman Incendiary pigs, both 20 units of them. If the Animals run amok, it gets even more fun. You get nice pics of elephants "playing (pig)soccer".

I voted Cataphracts, awesome if you charge a bunch of lance cavalry in the back!:2thumbsup:

[Ca Putt]

ultimately Naked dudes but most of the time i simply use ranged cavalary whithout any arrows left for the final blow :D sounds crappy but it works :D

[Maion Maroneios]

Obviously not many people have actually used elephants, it seems. Really the chaos those beasts cause can seriously not be compared to any of the other options in the poll. And don't give me the "elephants die like flies with javelins" or "rout easily with fire" crap, because all other options have their weaknesses :clown:

Maion

[lenin96]

I prefer to spam units that are cheap but effective supported by some stronger troops and missile units. It all depends on how much money I can spare.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Obviously not many people have actually used elephants, it seems. Really the chaos those beasts cause can seriously not be compared to any of the other options in the poll. And don't give me the "elephants die like flies with javelins" or "rout easily with fire" crap, because all other options have their weaknesses :clown:

Maion

I am an expert of charging elephants in the back:laugh4: I had my Elephants from Pyrrhos (starting as unit of 18) still when I was fighting the Seleukids near the Caspian Sea, there were 9 left then (so less archers). They open the gates for you and inflict mass rout, sadly they are hard to come by.

Heavy lance cavalry is a lot more common and usually also does the job.

[/Bean\]

Practically anything big and/or heavy smashing into your back at speed is not going to do wonders for your morale, so I think ele's or cavalry will always win my vote. Anything 'frightening' also works to make the enemy morale drop faster, but it's not really a final blow, so, for this particular poll, those units don't get my vote.

[Mediolanicus]

Casse Chariots!!!

Used well they mop up half an engaged army easily, all you have to do is hold the line for a few minutes, even if you are outnumbered 3 to 1.

[machinor]

Cataphract Elephants. :beam:

They're heavy cavalry and frightening superarmoured shock troops all combined into one giant biomass of BADASS! :2thumbsup:

[Fluvius Camillus]

Casse Chariots!!!

Used well they mop up half an engaged army easily, all you have to do is hold the line for a few minutes, even if you are outnumbered 3 to 1.

Rather Pontic/Seleucid Chariots then, nice scythes!:beam:

Always love when these things crash into unsuspecting AI units, they flie into the air, lose formation and rout, also nice to shred light cavalry.

[Ignopotens]

Drapanai and Rhomphaiaphoroi charges to the enemy rear pretty much end anyone's day.

[Vasiliyi]

elephants, definatly. I love waiting paitently for the enemy to get tired against my line and then sending those awesome beasts do their work. Ive never had them run amok yet, and halfway through your battle most if not all of the enemy skirmishers used their javelins. So elephants have my vote.

[Iskander 3.1]

PedEx FTW!!!11!1

[DaciaJC]

Drapanai and Rhomphaiaphoroi charges to the enemy rear pretty much end anyone's day.

Indeed, I'm surprised that these two didn't get their own option. Thraikioi Peltastai are also good in that role.

[mountaingoat]

usually charge with whatever is remaining , so i picked the levy option :P

[Ghaust the Moor]

I'm gonna vote Catapracts. They are the best when used to annihilate (spelling?) heavy infantry, when the've been stuck on a phalanx. Normaly I would vote Elephants but I am a little reckless with them, and I ussually charge them at the first unit waiting on the other side of the gate when attacking a city. That unit, more often than not, Is peltasts sooooo bye-bye elephants. I tend to think my elephants are invincible...yeah...not so.

[Zim]

I picked elephants since out of the choices they were the one where having even a single unit of them on my side has a massive effect on the battle.

But for the unit I use most often it would probably be medium cavalry. Generally faster than heavy cav and with better stamina(and I suspect cataphracts, although I don't have the experience to back that up), I find them much more useful for repeated charges to break an enemy.

[WarpGhost]

I rarely build cavalry or elite infantry; I just find them cost ineffective. So I tend to rely on a combination of archers, phalanx and swamping the enemy from all sides, thus the levie option fits the bill for me.

[Ignopotens]

Indeed, I'm surprised that these two didn't get their own option. Thraikioi Peltastai are also good in that role.

I voted under the "Gesatae/frightening unit" option because it seemed the most related.

[Cute Wolf]

That result of my pool is not too surprising for the first place, the HC are the best choice to wreck enemy line and routing them... but I do surprised when there is no one mention for slings... I can remember when there was a someone call EB with it's slingers from hell...

[Elcmar]

That result of my pool is not too surprising for the first place, the HC are the best choice to wreck enemy line and routing them... but I do surprised when there is no one mention for slings... I can remember when there was a someone call EB with it's slingers from hell...

If you can get slingers around to the back of an enemy, then they'll decimate pretty much anyone with a few volleys, however slingers will always get cut to ribbons in a melee, so cavalry are usually a better option - generally faster for flanking and better in melee

[Aemilius Paulus]

I rarely build cavalry or elite infantry; I just find them cost ineffective. So I tend to rely on a combination of archers, phalanx and swamping the enemy from all sides, thus the levie option fits the bill for me.
Use light cavalry. That is all I use in my current Eperios campaign. Prodromoi and Illyrioi Hippies are relatively cheap (~2.000 mnai), are fast, barely tire and their charges are jut as effective as any other cavalry. Since I never use even the heaviest of my cavalry in melee, light cavalry is all I train.

Nothing in the game beats the effectiveness of a good old-fashioned charge in the rear. It does enormous amount of damage and has routed just about every unit I have ever encountered from the first charge. Fells like cheating, really. Even Triarii and Pezhetairoi, when engaged with another one of my units, can be routed with a single light mounted charge in the back.

On the other hand, surrounding the enemy is slow and often ineffective, especially when done to phalanxes and elites. AP units, with clubs, axes, flaxes, etc solve this, but still, it is unnecessarily inexpedient, which costs you men.

[Cute Wolf]

very sad indeed, the Spartans didn't have the "Frighten" attributes. In their description, the writer said that Spartans does indeed had a frightening effect in enemy morale...

[IrishHitman]

One word:
Companions.

[julius_caesar_the_first]

Heavy cav always does the trick. If I have Geastae I use them in the front lines to scare off the more weak willed troops. Plus they are too hard to kill to keep in reserve. They can hold the line forever to give my cav time to go around the enemy line.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Take a guess at the choice I've picked ~:joker:

[DaciaJC]

Take a guess at the choice I've picked ~:joker:

Well, look at that. I finally see a vote for slingers... :clown:

[Andronikos]

I prefer frightening infatry like Celtic champions, rhomphaia guys, peltastai makedonikoi, but also heavy cav. But my cavalry is usualy busy killing archers, heavy non-spear infantry and taking care of already routing units.

[Ibrahim]

Obviously not many people have actually used elephants, it seems. Really the chaos those beasts cause can seriously not be compared to any of the other options in the poll. And don't give me the "elephants die like flies with javelins" or "rout easily with fire" crap, because all other options have their weaknesses :clown:

Maion

even though I voted cataphracts, I must point out that I have often used the elephants. the only problem with them IMHO is their vulnerability to javelins and certan types of archers, however as you said yourself, that's normally not a problem. but the reason I did not vote for them for sure is simply one word: cost. think about it; why have a single elephant unit, when 3 or 4 cataphracts/hetairoi can be made in their place? and far more useful and less javelin easy.


Take a guess at the choice I've picked ~:joker:

:idea2:

cabbage?

@frontline44: it can't be slingers-it must be cabbages :clown:

[antisocialmunky]

One word:
Companions.

3 Words:
Baktrian Super Heavies.

[Aemilius Paulus]

But my cavalry is usualy busy killing archers, heavy non-spear infantry and taking care of already routing units.
So just train more cavalry :grin:. How many mounted units does your normal army have? My armies usually have a mounted general and 4-5 units of horsemen.

[Macilrille]

I personally find that I rarely rout large portions of the enemy army. Probably cause I like to play Roman and kill Hellenes, whose Phalanxes rarely break and rout en masse.

So, usually I get some cavalry behind them (yes I play on huge), to kill off archers and get ready to charge backs while my own missile troops (I just love Accensii and Cretan Archers) take their toll on vulnerable enemies and one or two of the Hellenic archers firing flaming arrows. Meanwhile I use part of my infantry to chuck pilae at them and go in and hold them till I can concentrate on those phalanxes, meanwhile the rest of my infantry flanks the phalangites and makes them walk all over, breaking their line into isolated phalanx. Then I create local quantitative superiority and concentrate on the phalanxes one by one with infantry and Cav. Some will rout, others not, but even repeated massed cavalry charges at their backs rarely makes a line of phalangites break. So I rout/kill them one or two at a time by creating local superiority, using my superior mobility and all the while cursing these AS Graeculi wannabees, and being sorely tempted to Blitz AS instead of fighting 1-3 phalanx battles every turn.

Hence I rarely have a battle-turning unit. It is a combination of slaughter, flaming arrows and cavalry/infantry charges that routs or kills those damn Phalangites.

The Sweboz owns large parts of northern Europe and are killing off all Gauls, so soon I shall be fighting them, perhaps they rout easier.

[satalexton]

Say Maion, I think this barbaroi has never seen a flurry of dory/sarissae/xyston crushing his own kin. Let's be kind and give him a bird's eye view of it!

*impales Macilrille by the groin and lifts him into the sky*

See? it's simple, Sarissae in the middle, poliskrate on the flanks, and the Hetairoi going ALL HEIL MAKEDONIA at the barbaroi's sorry buttocks.

TRUTH AND HOPE TO FATHERLAND!!! ALL HEIL MAKEDONIA!!!

[Macilrille]

Say Maion, I think this barbaroi has never seen a flurry of dory/sarissae/xyston crushing his own kin. Let's be kind and give him a bird's eye view of it!

*impales Macilrille by the groin and lifts him into the sky*

See? it's simple, Sarissae in the middle, poliskrate on the flanks, and the Hetairoi going ALL HEIL MAKEDONIA at the barbaroi's sorry buttocks.

TRUTH AND HOPE TO FATHERLAND!!! ALL HEIL MAKEDONIA!!!

I think I have already commented on this sort of spam somewhere else.

It would instead be interesting to know how you Hellene Lovers fight the various barbarians.

[Andronikos]

So just train more cavalry :grin:. How many mounted units does your normal army have? My armies usually have a mounted general and 4-5 units of horsemen.

General + 1-3 cavalry units, depends on mine and enemy factions. Sometimes I have armies composed only of cavalry with few archers and light infantry, in that case I make enemy army route with cavalry.
But good idea, I'll try using light cavalry more.

[Jebivjetar]

1) when playing with Carthage

I usually hold my line with mix of light infantry, kill equites consulares with my superior calvary, and then hit romans from the back and rear with elephants and/or other calvary. Iberi Caetrati are the best for pursuing routing pedites extraordinari and their cowardly comrades. Rarely some romans actually escape from me, and, if some of them escape, they go to their barbaropolis, which i sack in next turn:smash:

2) when playing with KH/Makedonia/Epeiros

I just let romans to taste my sarissas in their mouth. Then i tell them a joke, and they really do lough bloody. :no:

[risker]

I think mobbing them with levies or just plain barbarian units like celtic spearmen can be effective for an enemy route. otherwise, in the campaign game, i train a unit of those hoplites just to scare the senses out of those guys:laugh4:

[R-Teen]

With the charge of the Pushtigbane Pahlavan. :smash:

[MerlinusCDXX]

Ye olde Parthian 1-2 punch. (pincushion/ Grivpanzer combo)

Needless to say...I picked the Katatank charge.

[satalexton]

Elephantes Kataphraktoi: Your Number 1 source of finely grounded barbaroi. Cans and preservatives sold seperately. Batteries not included.

[heldelance]

Birthday suits for the win!!!

[Zett]

It would instead be interesting to know how you Hellene Lovers fight the various barbarians.

As far as I know there is only one barbarian faction in EB, but perhaps you meant Barbarian Ivasion, there you have two barbarian factions of course.:clown:
Sorry couldn't resist

About Elephants. I used them sometimes as Epeiros, but they are to expensive and need too much baby-sitting in my opinion. So I stick to cavalery, Prodromoi are a fine unit. If I play as KH, I use Hippeis Xystophoroi (how I already posted).
About the Elephantes Kataphraktoi, I only used them once in my Baktrian Campaign, they where good, but expensive and slow. The main problem I have with elephants is their limited AoR.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[satalexton]

As far as I know there is only one barbarian faction in EB, but perhaps you meant Barbarian Ivasion, there you have two barbarian factions of course.:clown:

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

WELL SAID! =D

Here, have Sōkrátēs :balloon3: Notice how you are gaining in ownership of civillized balloons =]

[Maion Maroneios]

even though I voted cataphracts, I must point out that I have often used the elephants. the only problem with them IMHO is their vulnerability to javelins and certan types of archers, however as you said yourself, that's normally not a problem. but the reason I did not vote for them for sure is simply one word: cost. think about it; why have a single elephant unit, when 3 or 4 cataphracts/hetairoi can be made in their place? and far more useful and less javelin easy.
I believe this thread isn't about the cost-effectiveness of units, but their actual ability to cause mass routs and turn the tide during battle. Regardless of cost, whatever anyone says, elephants are just the best. NO other unit can cause, after being properly used of course, as much amok as elephants do.

As for your post satalexton, I'm sorry I can't say anything. I promised the Nice Fairy I'll be a good boy and behave.

Maion

[Macilrille]

I believe this thread isn't about the cost-effectiveness of units, but their actual ability to cause mass routs and turn the tide during battle. Regardless of cost, whatever anyone says, elephants are just the best. NO other unit can cause, after being properly used of course, as much amok as elephants do.

As for your post satalexton, I'm sorry I can't say anything. I promised the Nice Fairy I'll be a good boy and behave.

Maion

LOL, thanks ;-)

But I would like to know how to best use Hellene armies, they are far too immobile for my taste. How do you Hellene Lovers most effectively employ the grinding force of the Phalanx? Just pin the enemy (literally) and flank them with cavalry? What about your skirmishers? Archers?

[Jebivjetar]

This is how i lead battles with Hellenic armies:

1) First line: phalanx: engage the enemy and pin them, or let the enemy to engage phalanx. In most cases (especially when fighting romans), enemy is having some reserves in the back.

2) For this enemy reserves im using my slingers: their task is to shoot at them while they go right-left and trying to find place to engage my phalanx. Sometimes, i send some non phalanx spearmen (levy hoplites, heavy spearman) to engage enemy reserves. At this time my calvary walks around and eventually fight generals/ other enemy calvary.

3) i use heavy peltasts to throw their javelins in the back of enemies who engaged my phalanx. When they run aut of ammo, i attack with them on points where enemy seem to break first. I use my calvary on points where my phalanx is about to loose. With addition of some extra light infantry i attack in front of engaged enemy.

4) Light calvary/missle calvary i use to pursue routing enemies.

5) sometimes its good to have one or two phalanx units in the back of main phalanx: because you never know if some enemy unit succeed to find its path to back of main phalanx.

[Zett]

But I would like to know how to best use Hellene armies, they are far too immobile for my taste. How do you Hellene Lovers most effectively employ the grinding force of the Phalanx? Just pin the enemy (literally) and flank them with cavalry? What about your skirmishers? Archers?

https://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6425/kharmysetupv.jpg
As KH I usually deploy my troops like this or something similar. If the enemy come closer I order my Spendonetai behind my Phalanx (if I'm on higher ground and do not hit my own troops, I continue fiering from this position). My Hippies Xystophoroi (or any other cavalry) normally waits at the flanks or is hidden in a small forest nearby and waits until the biggest part of the enemy is fighting with my Phalangitai and charges then (battle turning moment). Toxotai are ordered to shoot at enemies with no armor, like other skirmisher and cavalry (if they have a higher ground bonus).

Never attack with an Phalanx army
NEVER attack if you fight a bridgebattle (only if you have a second crossing, but even then...)
NEVER attack an enemy Phalanx army if they have higher ground

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Ibrahim]

https://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6425/kharmysetupv.jpg

yes, let your enemy smash your left flank:clown:

[Zett]

yes, let your enemy smash your left flank:clown:

Normally two units of Thorakitai are more then enough. Even if they sent their general in, cause at this point my cavalery is already behind him:charge:.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[satalexton]

one must provide the enemy a visible weakpoint, so that the foe strikes an anticipated point, and thus loses his control of the circumstances... Besides, thats an echlon(sp) formation! A fitting tactic of a spiritual heir of Alexandros!

[Elcmar]

https://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6425/kharmysetupv.jpg

I'd tend to use a similar formation for most of my battles as AS or Makedonia, except with either peltastai or other sword+javelin infantry behind the thorakitai, and usually deploy the cavalry so it can support either side of the line if needed.

[Ibrahim]

Normally two units of Thorakitai are more then enough. Even if they sent their general in, cause at this point my cavalery is already behind him:charge:.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

they can't run very fast y'know. and it is possible the enemy has more cavalry than you, so some will slow down your cavalry, then the rest would swing round the thorakitai and smash them phalanxes. all you have to do is put a single unit a cavalry to prevent this. I speak out of unfortunate experiance :shame:



one must provide the enemy a visible weakpoint, so that the foe strikes an anticipated point, and thus loses his control of the circumstances... Besides, thats an echlon(sp) formation! A fitting tactic of a spiritual heir of Alexandros!

see above :clown:

I have no problem with echelons in the makedonian manner, but I believe in some cavalry support on the left flank. Thorakitai can be out flanked.


and no I'm not taking the Artificial idiot into acount.:clown:

[Nachtmeister]

Checked and found my doubts about that "echelon formation" confirmed - should not one of the flanks be denied for it to be an echelon...?
They're supposed to be "diagonal" relative to the enemy line, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echelon_formation

BTW, unless you are stretching those phalangitai to only three-deep lines, the cavalry will be easily able to move over to the left flank behind the phalanx long before any enemy flank attack can get there... But their very purpose in this setup is not to engage enemy flanks but to immediately move behind the enemy center and rout it in one massed charge. If enemy flanks refuse to be evaded, it is better to have all cavalry in one spot so as to task one of the units with distracting the enemy flank while the rest continue on their way. With cavalry distributed on both flanks, you may need not one but two units just to clear the path (and possibly take high casualties in the process).
Zett's line-up is a very offensive one; Ibrahim's cautioning advice is defense-oriented.
If the basic tactic behind the all-out offensive move works out, defense will not be necessary/flanks can be bolstered with units from the center where the enemy has already routed. If this works, the enemy is, depending upon where the cavalry gets sufficient manoeuvering space for a massed charge, gradually rolled up either from his left flank or his center. Center is to be preferred because it should create more enemy "flank-area" to be exploited. Once the first units are routing, the cavalry is free to aid in a more defensive role if need be. Thorakitai are tough enough to survive against most enemies until then.
Of course, if the enemy makes a Pahlavan catank charge with six units to your left flank, the entire formation must be re-deployed to a more defensive pattern. But then, one unit of h. xystophoroi would have only bought five seconds before routing anyway.
From my experience with KH, I can say that this formation usually *works*. Even without KH phalangitai (use hoplitai, thorakitai, thureophoroi instead).

[Ibrahim]

Checked and found my doubts about that "echelon formation" confirmed - should not one of the flanks be denied for it to be an echelon...?
They're supposed to be "diagonal" relative to the enemy line, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echelon_formation

BTW, unless you are stretching those phalangitai to only three-deep lines, the cavalry will be easily able to move over to the left flank behind the phalanx long before any enemy flank attack can get there... But their very purpose in this setup is not to engage enemy flanks but to immediately move behind the enemy center and rout it in one massed charge. If enemy flanks refuse to be evaded, it is better to have all cavalry in one spot so as to task one of the units with distracting the enemy flank while the rest continue on their way. With cavalry distributed on both flanks, you may need not one but two units just to clear the path (and possibly take high casualties in the process).
Zett's line-up is a very offensive one; Ibrahim's cautioning advice is defense-oriented.
If the basic tactic behind the all-out offensive move works out, defense will not be necessary/flanks can be bolstered with units from the center where the enemy has already routed. If this works, the enemy is, depending upon where the cavalry gets sufficient manoeuvering space for a massed charge, gradually rolled up either from his left flank or his center. Center is to be preferred because it should create more enemy "flank-area" to be exploited. Once the first units are routing, the cavalry is free to aid in a more defensive role if need be. Thorakitai are tough enough to survive against most enemies until then.
Of course, if the enemy makes a Pahlavan catank charge with six units to your left flank, the entire formation must be re-deployed to a more defensive pattern. But then, one unit of h. xystophoroi would have only bought five seconds before routing anyway.
From my experience with KH, I can say that this formation usually *works*. Even without KH phalangitai (use hoplitai, thorakitai, thureophoroi instead).

interesting observations there.:balloon2::balloon2: for ye.

that's basically where I got my advice from-when I played EB muliplayer (or vs. pahlava in SP), the offensive form was used to deal with other players, and often the opposing player would have cavalry on both flanks (in fact, I often ended up fighting pahlava-even thorakitai will struggle vs. griefpanvar). all too often the left flank would literally be run over, while my right flank is bogged down or even routed-since I can't focus on both flanks, leaving the center to be screwed; bear in mind, the enemy was not in echelon. I later had to fine tune the formations, so that the flanks cancel each other out, leaving the center to duke it out-it worked in my later games..one technique is to add cavalry to the left; another is attach fast moving troops that are good vs. cavalry.

[Cyclops]

Its all about the Elephants. I just finished Baktria 1.2 and the Royal Army with Kata-Phants and various small elite inf ran around Iran annihilating endless grey stacks. Sooooo satisfying. Of course they never even saw a HA, I sent a Merc General with Merc Alan Nobles to play with the Saka.

They really do turn a battle in a matter of seconds, and no other unit comes close for me. I have a dreadful inablity to utilise chariots, perhaps they are in the same class but I will never know.

Of course I see the beauty of Kataphractoi, I am a big fan of Armenia (its my current campaign) and there's a great thrill when my line begins to waver, the Caucasian spearmen I left in guard mode are crumbling (what was I thinking? should've ponied up for some Georgians) and then the horns ring out and the FL and FH smash in from the flanks, 180+ lances ploughing a bloody swathe across the battlefield. If the elephants are a volcano, then the Kataphracts are the flood.

Sometimes I just line up 4 FM's and go straight into the enemy line for the pure joy of it. I don't suicide on pikes or anything like that, my Arkah is bloodthirsty but not reckless. The massive blow really simplifies otherwise humdrum mopping up battles.

The stuff about pila, or frightening the enemy with your willy (not to mention slings and arrows!), well its no so much about being "battle turning" as part of a tactical build-up. I like the Lusotannan and german battles, with ambush, skirmish, strike and retreat, then a hard fight. Everyone plays their part, no-one really dominates. I play the Gauls a bit more up-front, but the presence of Gesaetae accelerates battle trends rather than transforms them.

If you have two balanced well-matched full stack armies facing one another and one of them has one unit arriving as a reinforcement, which unit would make the most difference? If you were fighting that battle, what enemy arrival would make you change your posture, your formation, your battle plans, your attitude to life, your underwear? I vote Elephantoi Kataphraktoi above all others.

[Cyclops]

Checked and found my doubts about that "echelon formation" confirmed - should not one of the flanks be denied for it to be an echelon...?
They're supposed to be "diagonal" relative to the enemy line, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echelon_formation

...

Interesting point. Echelon has a number of meanings (inf and cav formations, also rear and forward echelons in the sense of staff and frontline components, also air and ground echelons in combined arms).

I seem to dimly recall it can refer to any "staggered" battle array, that is acies triplex is an "en echelon" formation. It can be used to describe an oblique order of battle (ie drawn up diagionally) but IIRC it means formations broken down into components with clear gaps between them.

I don't think of classic hoplite and phalanx klines as echeloned: weren't they continuous lines and rather compact?

The use of echelon used in the wikipaedia article is extremely obscure: at times it confuses it with refusals and oblique orders of attack that you describe. It also mentions Hannibal using an echelon at Cannae, which is strictly the classic double envelopement, and also the Thebans vs Spartans (wtf? wasn't that a superdense hoplite battle?). A bit wikifuzzy if you ask me.

[DeathEmperor]

Even though I know how devastating elephants can be if properly used I chose cataphracts/cavalry.

A well times and well placed cavalry charge can break almost any enemy army, especially if the soldiers being charged are already busy fighting the rest of your army. They're also better at wiping out routing soldiers than elephants hehe.

[Megas Methuselah]

Even though I know how devastating elephants can be if properly used I chose cataphracts/cavalry.

A well times and well placed cavalry charge can break almost any enemy army, especially if the soldiers being charged are already busy fighting the rest of your army. They're also better at wiping out routing soldiers than elephants hehe.

Same. I also tend to avoid elephants mostly due to their cost and upkeep. Even in a large empire, they tend to pack quite a punch on the treasury. Might as well invest in a bunch of Celto-Hellenic Hoplites and their mothers rather than a single unit of easy-to-kill elephants.

[Zett]

If you have two balanced well-matched full stack armies facing one another and one of them has one unit arriving as a reinforcement, which unit would make the most difference? If you were fighting that battle, what enemy arrival would make you change your posture, your formation, your battle plans, your attitude to life, your underwear? I vote Elephantoi Kataphraktoi above all others.

"Ok, they have Elephnatoi, let's change our pants!":laugh4:

Yes, Elephantoi Kataphraktoi are fearsome, but a well placed unit of Petastai is also "fearsome". The only faction that uses Elephantoi from time to time is Karthadastim. Never saw the AI using Elepantes Kataphraktoi in a campaign.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Nachtmeister]

interesting observations there.:balloon2::balloon2: for ye.

that's basically where I got my advice from-when I played EB muliplayer (or vs. pahlava in SP), the offensive form was used to deal with other players, and often the opposing player would have cavalry on both flanks (in fact, I often ended up fighting pahlava-even thorakitai will struggle vs. griefpanvar). all too often the left flank would literally be run over, while my right flank is bogged down or even routed-since I can't focus on both flanks, leaving the center to be screwed; bear in mind, the enemy was not in echelon. I later had to fine tune the formations, so that the flanks cancel each other out, leaving the center to duke it out-it worked in my later games..one technique is to add cavalry to the left; another is attach fast moving troops that are good vs. cavalry.

My thanks, Ibrahim!
If we are talking about multiplayer here, the entire army setup can be (depends on opposing unit roster) pretty much useless - far too expensive and easily countered as in the "stone, scissors, paper"-scheme in spite of some missile and cavalry units being present. Horse archers/lancers, elephants, cataphracts, more numerous but far cheaper AP infantry, possibly even siege weapons (never tried those in MP, are they even available at reasonable cost?) are the first that come to mind for a dedicated killer setup. At least if it is to be used in an offensive role or without a serious elevation advantage. Then again, KH fighting Pahlava is about as un-historic as it gets (only topped by KH vs. Saka) afaik. Zett's stack looks like it is intended for Rome-bashing or taking on Gauls, Thraikians, Qart Hadast or maybe even a diadochoi army in single player campaigns, mopping up the entire map without retraining...

Cyclops, you are right about the "rather accelerate existing trend than turn battle" point.
The battle between Thebes and Sparta you are referring to did involve an echelon formation on the Theban side however - denied right flank and most of the center and applied a literal weight-advantage of staggering proportions on the left flank. It was not just a simple echelon, however - the center and right flank were severely thinned out to bring up the men needed for the left flank.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/picture.php?albumid=162&pictureid=1190
The image is an understatement of how many troops were moved from the main battle line to support the column on the left flank. Also, the entire line would have been diagonal except for the column on the left, not only the outer right flank. This would not have been obvious to the spartans as they had no bird's eye view of the battlefield, thus denying them the opportunity to adapt their formation accordingly. All this of course under the assumption that what I read about the "canon" on the way the battle went is correct.
After some typical Spartan heroics, the 80-men-deep column is supposed to have literally bulldozed the Spartan elites (who would have been maybe something like six to ten men deep, maybe even twenty but by far not enough to hold against the push of eighty), trampling and stabbing those who were toppled and causing the Spartan right flank to rout or simply obliterating it, then turning on the remaining, now severely outnumbered and disoriented Spartans.

I should sleep sufficiently before posting - went right past your point... Well if the echelon strictly refers to formations with distinct spaces between individual units then the battle of Sparta and Thebes was not fought with echelon formations.
I was always under the impression that "echelon" does not require spacing but rather just a relative displacement. Can't turn to any written sources on this - so I stand corrected.

[Maion Maroneios]

LOL, thanks ;-)

But I would like to know how to best use Hellene armies, they are far too immobile for my taste. How do you Hellene Lovers most effectively employ the grinding force of the Phalanx? Just pin the enemy (literally) and flank them with cavalry? What about your skirmishers? Archers?
Hmmm, I believe this requires a seperate thread. There are tons of tricks and aces a Hellenistic Strategos can deploy, depending on the enemy each time he has to face. I'd be more than happy to share my experience with you, or anyone else for that matter :beam:

Maion

[Mediterraneo]

I voted massed levies.

Not because of their actual superiority, just because I can do more with a full stack (of anything, but I'm thinking of pantodapoi phalangitai, peltastai, hippakontistai, a couple of archers and a AS general) than with a single unit of elephants.
For the very same 23000 $ and roughly the same 6000 in upkeep.

Multiplayer may be very different, but with a 23000 $ (or £ or €...) stack of "levies" you can rout anything the AI can field, conquer Asia, and bring the guys back home for Christmas, or whatever.

With 23000 $ of elephants, i can fear 2 units of uphill javelins.

[Nachtmeister]

I voted massed levies.

Not because of their actual superiority, just because I can do more with a full stack (of anything, but I'm thinking of pantodapoi phalangitai, peltastai, hippakontistai, a couple of archers and a AS general) than with a single unit of elephants.
For the very same 23000 $ and roughly the same 6000 in upkeep.

Multiplayer may be very different, but with a 23000 $ (or £ or €...) stack of "levies" you can rout anything the AI can field, conquer Asia, and bring the guys back home for Christmas, or whatever.

With 23000 $ of elephants, i can fear 2 units of uphill javelins.


I agree with you as long as short-term campaigns are concerned... But a raid deep into enemy territory without reinforcements/retraining...? Levies die faster than professionals, and thus either you are a very superior battlefield tactician for being able to rout the enemy without much of a melee engagement - or you play very defensively, expanding slowly.
But for any single campaign battle, you are right. Also, every man helps keep up public order in settlements before and after the battle...

[antisocialmunky]

I've seen a charge by 20 Baktrian Late Bodyguards rout a whole Saba Army in the desert in an online match. Levies aren't that great.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I've seen a charge by 20 Baktrian Late Bodyguards rout a whole Saba Army in the desert in an online match. Levies aren't that great.
It would be a difficult feat to perform against AI, much less human being. Tell me where you have seen that, and maybe I will believe you. Your post is an obvious exaggeration. The BGs could not have done it alone. I mean sure, if that Saba army was already facing some Baktrian infantry, then yes, a charge in the back could rout them all, but otherwise, no.

[Cyclops]

...
I should sleep sufficiently before posting - went right past your point... Well if the echelon strictly refers to formations with distinct spaces between individual units then the battle of Sparta and Thebes was not fought with echelon formations.
I was always under the impression that "echelon" does not require spacing but rather just a relative displacement. Can't turn to any written sources on this - so I stand corrected.

I don't know if you do stand corrected.

There are multiple meanings for any word, and my (unsourced,dimly recollected) definition is of the 18th century "horse and musket" sense, as is my use of oblique OOB and refusing the flank etc. IIRC there's a fabulous book about "Battle Tactics of Napoleon and his chief opponents".

A little googling shows that the term echelon is used for a diagonal formations (eg aircraft), so it my be that my definition was overly narrow.

Gee its agreat little thread this, lots of interesting technical points about suitable stack constitution.

At that Spartan Theban battle (I always forget, was it Manitnaea, or Leuctra or Tegea?), wasn't the Theban steamroller aided by some inopportune Spartan lollygagging? The Theban Sacred Band lined up on the left :dizzy2:, so the Spartans crossed over to counter and got a little tangled and were engaged whilst in disorder? Certainly my impression was there was some manoueveruing difficulties, which suggested the Spartans were not as disciplined (as well as not nearly as numerous) as at Plataea.

[Maion Maroneios]

I voted massed levies.

Not because of their actual superiority, just because I can do more with a full stack (of anything, but I'm thinking of pantodapoi phalangitai, peltastai, hippakontistai, a couple of archers and a AS general) than with a single unit of elephants.
For the very same 23000 $ and roughly the same 6000 in upkeep.

Multiplayer may be very different, but with a 23000 $ (or £ or €...) stack of "levies" you can rout anything the AI can field, conquer Asia, and bring the guys back home for Christmas, or whatever.

With 23000 $ of elephants, i can fear 2 units of uphill javelins.
Yet again guys, you fail to understand the question of this poll. It doesn't ask what is the most effective unit you've used in your campaigns in terms of cost-effectiveness, rather what do you believe is the ultimate battle-turning unit. Have you ever tried to compare the devastation caused by each of the poll options to see which is the most effective in turning the tide during a battle?

Maion

[sedlacekj]

I voted Sarissa. I use HUGE settings and I like hvy phalanx armies backed up with some jav and 1-2 mounted archer.

However, I use many different options depending on what nation I am using. If I have cataphracts or elephants...those are nice, but I like destroying both of these also. I really love fighting enemies who enter my battlefield with too much cavalry as I have no problem defending my flanks or my rear. (I actually invite a calvalry charge to my rear!)

I like Ca Putt's option on the first page. Archer Cav has a better speed to run down routers before they leave the map. Usually I have some archer cav in my mix, whether I'm using Phalanx or other infantry, so I usually wait until the enemy commits their cavalry, flank w/ archer cav, then smash the rear of the infantry. Added bonus is actually being able to kill at many times 100% of the enemy before they rout off the map. ( I usually get "bummed out" when 2 or 3 survive.) Light cavalry is best for this role, but useless until the end unless they also have archers.

[Cute Wolf]

Eng... Maion... You're right, but they're right too...

I post this pool to see how peoples are appreciating an unit as an ultimate, battle turning unit.... For some men, using massive levies as their battle turning unit is a really valid option, although I still prefer frightening men to do their jobs (if I ware barbaroi), I really get used to use amassed levies (hint: gaeroas, curoas, botroas, and even rorarii) because when I play saby'n, hai, any barbarians, or another "backyard faction" that will be very poor... the most effective way to tackle a big bad Arche is amassed local troops to raid enemy settlements, and flood their walls and push with certain recklesness... when its done, the pantodapoi horde (or kavakaza sparabara horde) is a valid battle turning unit on its own right... And even middle class units can become a very frightening one... (look at my iudaioi taxeis tactic... they got their experience with smashing AS stack, and even they can smash argyraspidai quite hard, and made them javelin cushion...

thanks for your appreciation Maion.... :2thumbsup:

[Phalanx300]

Well Elephants are the ultimate battle turning unit. Followed by Catapracts, one of those Baktrian Cathapract Hetairoi are the ultimate killing machine :inquisitive:.

[sedlacekj]

Yet again guys, you fail to understand the question of this poll. It doesn't ask what is the most effective unit you've used in your campaigns in terms of cost-effectiveness, rather what do you believe is the ultimate battle-turning unit. Have you ever tried to compare the devastation caused by each of the poll options to see which is the most effective in turning the tide during a battle?

Maion

I agree with Maion. However the situation may change what one does. It probably depends on what matters more...winning the economic war, or the immediate battle. For the individual battle, cost does matter but winning matters even more. If cheap units are winning, keep cheap units...if not, winning matters most...so upgrade.

It is usually best to win at whatever monetary cost, then disband some units to offset the cost. Another form of "cost" is the lives that are lost. If one's tactic costs the army too many soldiers, one will have to withdraw, refit, or lose the next fight. If having a higher "cost" (monetary) army in the field prevents a higher "cost" (people)... It may just be well worth it financially to have more "costly" units over the long haul.

[antisocialmunky]

It would be a difficult feat to perform against AI, much less human being. Tell me where you have seen that, and maybe I will believe you. Your post is an obvious exaggeration. The BGs could not have done it alone. I mean sure, if that Saba army was already facing some Baktrian infantry, then yes, a charge in the back could rout them all, but otherwise, no.

I meant to imply a chain rout. But yeah, I looked back on it and I guess I mis-remembered it a little bit. The unti that made the charge was a unit of Hellenic Kataphracts and they didn't actually chain rout them. Hmmm, I guess my memory just blurred together several battles.

...

On the other hand, my 40 strong bodyguard was actually holding off the entire Sabean cavalry wing by itself including a unit of elephants which is equally as epic. I have so many replays of Baktrian bodyguards doing crazy things.

http://files.filefront.com/Elephail2rpy/;13692200;/fileinfo.html

[Andronikos]

It would instead be interesting to know how you Hellene Lovers fight the various barbarians.

I believe this is no problem. If you can protect your flanks, hellenic army can defeat any army based on non-phalanx infantry (without ahistorical number of elites).
But leading barbarians against helenes is a royal pain in ass. It requires a lot of micromanage, you have to break enemy formation, isolate and outnumber enemy phalanxes, here scary heavy infantry with powerful weapons such as longswords comes handy. You have to attract the phalanx so that your unit can approach from back without fear that the phalanx turns. Elite phalangites fight to the last man. And the unit which is on the sharp end of sarissa tends to rout. I remember fighting Romans who spammed makedonian-phalanx-triarii back in 0.8 as Celts. When Karthadastim and Epeiros become your enemies only then the party begins.

[mosedavid]

I think if one is relying on one battle winning unit then one's tactics are bad. Against the AI tactics win battles not individual units. Every unit has a weakness and a work around. Paper scissors stone.

[antisocialmunky]

Depending on the case its beating a rock with a 50% bigger rock.

[Ibrahim]

I meant to imply a chain rout. But yeah, I looked back on it and I guess I mis-remembered it a little bit. The unti that made the charge was a unit of Hellenic Kataphracts and they didn't actually chain rout them. Hmmm, I guess my memory just blurred together several battles.

...

On the other hand, my 40 strong bodyguard was actually holding off the entire Sabean cavalry wing by itself including a unit of elephants which is equally as epic. I have so many replays of Baktrian bodyguards doing crazy things.

http://files.filefront.com/Elephail2rpy/;13692200;/fileinfo.html

I just saw the replay-the scene reminded me of this demotivational poster for some reason:

http://i10.tinypic.com/6euqhjs.jpg

citing fair use

the idea is similar: a surreal disaster as it is being made:clown:

so what happened after the recording halted? did you recoup your fortunes, or did you lose for good?

[Nachtmeister]

I just saw the replay-the scene reminded me of this demotivational poster for some reason:

http://i10.tinypic.com/6euqhjs.jpg

citing fair use

the idea is similar: a surreal disaster as it is being made:clown:

so what happened after the recording halted? did you recoup your fortunes, or did you lose for good?

:laugh4: ~:mecry: :smash:
14000lbs of pure AWESOME!!
I nearly fell off my chair laughing after looking at that pic - the sharp comment amplified the effect.
Honors and a balloon are due for the best wit I've ever seen on an internet forum. -:balloon2:
Congratulations - and keep them coming!

[antisocialmunky]

I just saw the replay-the scene reminded me of this demotivational poster for some reason:

http://i10.tinypic.com/6euqhjs.jpg

citing fair use

the idea is similar: a surreal disaster as it is being made:clown:

so what happened after the recording halted? did you recoup your fortunes, or did you lose for good?

It didn't have a capacity to get THAT bad I guess... Not sure how that bodyguard survived, elephants and 400+ light horse though.

I won and we had a rematch as Carthage vs Saba I think. That giant pile of light hoplites routed everything. I have that one lying around as well but honestly it wasn't much of a fight unless you want to see Campanians and Elephants killg everyone. If you really want to see a cool fight, the Getai vs Rome replay I have or the seige of the hanging gardens was fun.

Actually probably the best fight I've had was a Baktria vs Epeiros where 120 bodyguard cats and 200 Iranians tried to gloriously charge and defeat 300 horses + elephants... :laugh4:

http://www.mediafire.com/?2yhmmh2yyj4

Also, for proof that cavalry isn't always the decisive arm of the battle:

http://www.mediafire.com/?hzdmqz1j4yt

PS. Hey Gabeed, if you're around, I wouldn't mind playing a game every so often. You always do the craziest things!

[mosedavid]

Depending on the case its beating a rock with a 50% bigger rock.

i recomend you read the Tao te Ching and Art of war if you havent already. Thats not to be patronising by the way. There is always a way to win the AI with whatever you've got. Against human opponents online it may be that you need powerful units.

Take hannibal at Canne, he didnt have any battle winning troops: he had a few pikemen, a lot of spanish medium troops and cavalry better than his opponent. He won the battle by his use of tactics over his adversary. Another general would have used the army another way and would have surley lost the battle. The romans had that 50% bigger rock and still lost.

[antisocialmunky]

I forget what game theory strategy class it is but its what happens in a symmetrical game where one player adopts a strategy that can only be countered by the use of the same strategy so far as resources can support it.

For Example: Plant eating dinosaurs got bigger during the Late-Jurassic/Cretateous so nothing could eat them but predators got larger so they could eat them. However, after a certain point those large dinosaurs couldn't catch the smaller dinosaurs. So yeah, big rock beats big rock but not small rock because it gets stuck in a crack.

I'm not advocating the use of escalation as a solution for everything. But sometimes, you have to play that game until you find out how to negate it. That's why only idiots engage modern western style armies in set piece battles anymore. Since the use of a big rock against small rock doesn't do much to the small rock but instead does damage around small rock because its inefficient. Sure you could flatten on side of the big rock to smash everything but it still smashes everything and is inefficient.

The best use of your resources is to always use jsut enough for what you want, not more, not less. That's why the Romans got pwned so badly at Carnae because they risked everything(very low risk mind you) and lost everything.

[DaciaJC]

If you really want to see a cool fight, the Getai vs Rome replay I have

Could you, please? :beam:

[Ibrahim]

:laugh4: ~:mecry: :smash:
14000lbs of pure AWESOME!!
I nearly fell off my chair laughing after looking at that pic - the sharp comment amplified the effect.
Honors and a balloon are due for the best wit I've ever seen on an internet forum. -:balloon2:
Congratulations - and keep them coming!

thanks!:bow:

one of the few times that wit has been captured on the internet (In RL I have a reputation as a smartass and cynic)

well, I'm going to see the other fights Antisocialmunky posted, and let you all know what I think.

but the fact that you (antisocial) won vs. saba with their elephants does demonstrate that you can win with minimal quality units (I assume that your 2-3 body guards and crapload of archers did the job, no?). I recommend in future cases when ou know a faction can get a hold of elephants to have a unit of nimble AP weapon wielding skirmishers to tag your cavalry*(peltastai thorakitai or other). hopefully you can avoid having another "AW F*CK moment" in the future.:clown:

*Empreror Burakuku ought to know how effective that was-It was against cavalry not elephantry though. He barely won the battle..

[antisocialmunky]

@FrontLine:
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=dd0c1ec99eba920d312dbd5f2bdc5062e04e75f6e8ebb871

If its the wrong one, just pm me or something. Imperial Roman Cavalry is surprisingly good unlike their Legionaires...

[Mediterraneo]

Depending on the case its beating a rock with a 50% bigger rock.

I cite this from antisocialmunky to reply to Maion. (and to interrupt an interesting debate to speak of something else, but there was an explicit question to do so)

Maion, I'm sorry if my previous post was unclear and frustrated you, i wanted to say is that i feel the levies to be my best choice to win battles, in a decisive way.
Yes, i played a bit of this game, i'm a long standing lurker. My biggest limit is that I only have single player experience.

What i implied in my previous post is that i feel that "mass levies" (or just cost effective relatively basic units) are the best battle winner i found in my campaigns, with the scope of winning battles.
I feel that i have the best hope to win if i field large armies, occupying a lot of room and being in the conditions to have a simpler way around the enemy while i give him an added "passive" resistance to his movement with the sheer lenght of my lines.

Sure, when i try to outmatch a spartan general (or even some cartaginean spears sometimes) with two or three units of hoplitai haploi i get some frustrating result.
Or when i see the charge of a ton (no, various hundreds of tons) of cataphracts i shake in fear but.... I feel that having three units of basic phalanx stops them better than having a single outnumbered cataphract unit.

So, i feel that the mass are my winning choice. Gaining, to me, more mass routes than anything, because they surround the heavy cavalry more often than the heavy cavalry can get a clear charge, in plain, without a forest in the middle, against their unguarded rear while they are busy doing something else.

To Nachtmeister: to field elites in the campaign game, you have to build buildings for them. So the levies get there first, to me. To the casualty problem: fighting when you outnumber the enemy helps limiting casualties, and using big units (with sarissas, better) helps absorbing casualties. And being at that, 360 levies, in campaign terms, do absorb 50 casualties better than 50 cataphracts.

:clown: Ok, that last was pretestuos.
Have a nice game tomorrow!

[Ibrahim]

Well, I've seen both battles between ASM and Gabeed; I have to put it to Gabeed, he knows exactly how to pull Defeat from the jaws of victory-especially when he has destroyed far more enemy soldiers than ASM could. I'm seriously impressed with him...

[antisocialmunky]

He is definitely one of my favorite opponents because barring experimentation, its always close when we play.

[Ibrahim]

He is definitely one of my favorite opponents because barring experimentation, its always close when we play.

:laugh4:

you missed the sarcasm, but yeah he was close...


he knows exactly how to pull Defeat from the jaws of victory

[Ariovistus Maximus]

:charge: :charge: > > > :duel:

Actually, I like to engage and then run around behind 'em with skirmishers. :sneaky:

Javelin-in-the-back causes WAY more casualties, plus its fun to watch! :evilgrin:

If you wait a little while for both units to be tired out from fighting, skirmishers from behind can rout 'em almost instantly! Uv korse I'm only playin' med. difficulty... :rolleyes: If I want more of a battlefield challenge I up the campaign level so the AI makes bigger armies, instead of tiny armies of invincible levy psychopaths. :surrender:

P.S. I am rapidly becoming addicted to smilies. :help: :dizzy2: :help: :inquisitive: :help:

[Celtic_Punk]

I use dacian falxes whenever they are available. i love putting them in my spartan/athenian armies. they make excellent kill squads.

[DaciaJC]

I use dacian falxes whenever they are available. i love putting them in my spartan/athenian armies. they make excellent kill squads.

Es la verdad.