Never forget.

[The Persian Cataphract]

This is still as painful to watch as I first saw it in 2003.

The looting and ransacking of Iraq National Museum in Baghdad (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOsOe-dfgpE)

[chenkai11]

:candle:~:mecry:

[johnhughthom]

It's one thing for people to have taken objects from the museum to sell, but what was the point of destroying anything they couldn't carry? I imagine it would have been a wonderful museum to have visited.

[vartan]

Attacking a whole people's memories. Cruelty at its peak. No way this can be forgotten.

[HunGeneral]

This really was horrible - what could be moved taken, what coudn't be moved smashed (but I just don't understand why:no:) and most of it lost.

Lets not forget.:candle:

[Raygereio]

It's one thing for people to have taken objects from the museum to sell, but what was the point of destroying anything they couldn't carry? I imagine it would have been a wonderful museum to have visited.
Why did they start looting in the first place? Your previous government has fallen, the invaders are parading into the city with promises of freedom and the first thing you do is looting your own city? I'll never understand us humans...

Same kind of stupidity as with some football matches (or soccer for you US citizens); after their favority team looses the 'fans' drown their sorrow by rioting and destroying stuff. Or even if their team wins, then they celebrate by rioting.
East of west, stupidity is everywhere.


Attacking a whole people's memories. Cruelty at its peak. No way this can be forgotten.
Oh it will be. I'm not pessimistic, just being realistic.

On a sidenote (and in no way making a political statement whatsoever) Rumsfeld's response of "stuff happens" and "freedom is untidy" was just hilarious. I certainly laughed out loud, what on earth made him think saying that was a good idea...

[Cute Wolf]

well, they probably remember how their ancient Keltoi ancestors loot Babylon in EB ... A standard looting and rioting activity... maybe if Slavery didn't get abolished... we just got a news that Baghdad are Enslaved... or even Exterminated... Luckily they are only looted... (but this was awful too)

It was sad when we see humanity values degraded...

[Silence Hunter]

Such acts like this are not only against the law, common sense and just absurd, but also against your own nation! There is no nation without a history. Same as there is no nation without a language. Destroying your OWN history is the worst crime possible...

I was unsure whether to cry or laugh when I wathed Rumsfeld saying "stuff happens", "they've got freedom and they can do bad things, BUT they can do a lot of beautiful things too!" (not an exact quote, but something similar). That's just absurd.

[Aurgelmir]

Most off the artifacts,temples and historical goldmines(figurly speaking)are destroyed because off there religion.....its really a shame!!
We have to thank the"Zend Avesta"for this.Without zoroastrianism,religion would not the be same,and i think much friendlier(but that is only my opinion,before SOMEONE starts flaming again)

[the man with no name]

Horrible. HorribleHORRIBLE.:furious3::furious3::furious3::furious3::furious3::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdo wn:
:soapbox::soapbox::soapbox::soapbox::soapbox:

[bobbin]

Don't forget the american military's decision to build a base ON TOP of a part of the ruins of Babylon, not trying to start america bashing here i'm just amazed at that particular idiotic decision.

[Ibrahim]

the times we live in:no:

[HunGeneral]

the times we live in:no:

I'm afraid it could get worse... but I hope it will not.

[satalexton]

Am I the only person that's worried about the presence of an over-sized Arche, with Type 3 and 4 settlements crawling all over the world in conspicous places?

[Ibrahim]

Am I the only person that's worried about the presence of an over-sized Arche, with Type 3 and 4 settlements crawling all over the world in conspicous places?

unless you are chezc, nope-far from it.

[Krusader]

Today is also a decade since the Columbine massacre.

As for the sacking it is sad as well.

[Mediolanicus]

I remember the sacking all to well...

I was really shocked when they showed it on the news here...

I won't forget it...

[Conan]

Cant remember who said this but there is a quote -

"War destroys the past."

In most cases its very true.

[Fluvius Camillus]

This really is saddening...:thumbsdown:

[Zeibek]

It's funny how history is always one of the first victims of war. The Aztecs systematically burnt the codices of subject people as to erase any memory of the time prior to Aztec dominance, the Romans had their whole damnatio memoriae thing and we all know how the USSR liked to rewrite the history of newly annexed states. Still, that all was somewhat understandable because it had a clear reason behind it. This was just taking whatever is movable and destroying the rest just because if you can't have it no-one should. It's not even anarchism, since at least anarchists wreak havoc for something, its just simple blind avarice let loose by the breakdown of law and order.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I have consipracy theories about the looting of the Baghdad museum, but won't go into them here. I'll only say, the easiest way to defeat someone is to destroy the uniqueness of their culture...

[A Very Super Market]

Today is also Hitler's birthday. Seems like a bad day for history.

[Constantine the Great]

Very sad. So many Iraqi archaeological sites are looted as well. Poor Babylon.....

[Tudhaliya]

To respond to a theme in this thread: why do people destory their own heritage?

"Heritage" has and always will be the product of a small elite ruling class. Think about it: the stuff that most people make and live around each day is rather unremarkable. A straw mat or a clay pot will look pretty much the same anywhere and any time in history. But give that as a reason to the owner of the pot you just smashed, and it will not fly with him.
Possession is nine-tenths of fondness for an object, so most members of a culture do not naturally have an emotional connection to the precious artifacts of their culture. With the exception of the children of the elite who literally grow up around the stuff (which is to say, what we could call "precious" is their "mundane"), a person's "heritage" must be taught.
In other words, precious artifacts mean the most to the elite that created them. They use them and display them as symbols of their authority. They teach the masses that support their empire to identify with these symbols - even to love them.
Now, none of this means that these artifacts aren't significant in a larger "human" context. Objectively, they are some of the finest things we as a species have produced. In some sense, they belong to all of us. But in truth, they only ever belonged to their progenitors, like a limb to its body.
So, when an Iraqi loots the dowry of some dead Babylonian princess, we musn't look at him as a cannibal turning on his own kind. He is more like a scavenger or a bacterium. Horrible, yes, but understandable.

[artavazd]

Today is also Hitler's birthday. Seems like a bad day for history.

Its Lenins Birthday as well. Which makes it an even worst day for history.

[vartan]

April sounds so downhill now. Memories of Oklahoma City 1995, Columbine 1999, Baghdad 2003, Lenin and Hitler, and the Armenian Genocide 1915. What a strange old month. :dizzy2:

[A Very Super Market]

Uh, Lenin was born on April 22. Today is April 20, in the Americas.

[jabarto]

That was honestly hard to watch, even for me. I won't forget it anytime soon.

[Cute Wolf]

let's hope that this bad thing won't happened again...

btw, the looter is not an Arche... He was a Res Publica, with type 4 government... in almost all the wolrd... the type 3 is only in some misfortunate countries...

[antisocialmunky]

I was honestly surprised at how much wasn't destroyed after seeing the video of the main displays and the archives of the museum. Not that it excuses this act, nothing will excuse the destruction of priceless artifacts. I don't think anyone actually expected it to be that bad or expected people to destroy their own history, more that a stray missile would have blown it up.

They've managed to recover a surprising amount of it between people who have turned items back in and people who took stuff to keep it safe. Still it was a stupid and sad thing.

The real thing are the archeological sites. People lost things they didn't even know they had. They lost things that weren't catalogues or studied - that's the real travesty.

What happened to Babylon was ridiculous though and inexcusable.

[seienchin]

As precious as history may be... Lets rather not forget the more than 100.000 dead Iraqi + millions of displaced persons. Things, no matter how precious can never make up to the worth of one human live.
Its a shame that in the name of democracy its so easy to take it and get away without punishment.

[delablake]

I guess that there was a very cynical deliberateness behind all this: revenge, humiliation and a perfect possibility to make heaps of money...uh, reminds me of the repeated sackings of Rome and Contantinople somehow :thumbsdown:

[Macilrille]

As precious as history may be... Lets rather not forget the more than 100.000 dead Iraqi + millions of displaced persons. Things, no matter how precious can never make up to the worth of one human live.
Its a shame that in the name of democracy its so easy to take it and get away without punishment.

I dunno about that, there are millions of people whereas lots of historical artefacts and documents are irreplacable. Of course, we can live without knowing where you come from?

So I am undecided, human life vs cultural heritage and history? I honestly do not know, perhaps the best way is to ask oneself about the value of your own life. For example your own life vs the works of Livy The Elder surviving? I think I might go for Livy, but then I would not benefit from it. And if we said the life of a loved one vs the same I would say, "burn Livy". But... still there are so many humans and we eventually all die...

Nvm, just raising dilemmas here. Fortunately we do not have to face that choice.

[seienchin]

I dunno about that, there are millions of people whereas lots of historical artefacts and documents are irreplacable. Of course, we can live without knowing where you come from?

So I am undecided, human life vs cultural heritage and history? I honestly do not know, perhaps the best way is to ask oneself about the value of your own life. For example your own life vs the works of Livy The Elder surviving? I think I might go for Livy, but then I would not benefit from it. And if we said the life of a loved one vs the same I would say, "burn Livy". But... still there are so many humans and we eventually all die...

Nvm, just raising dilemmas here. Fortunately we do not have to face that choice.

Honestly are you crazy? :juggle2:
No, cultural heritage, something the ordinary just started to care about a little with the nationalism, is not worth one single life. I am sorry to be so determined about it, but there is no way to compare a human live to something.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Why are we asking ourselves these ludicrous questions? Why would we have to compromise on either?

I'd like to believe that safeguarding and preserving the roots of our humanity, is to do humanity a service. While human life can never be assessed in true worth to material culture, I'd like to believe that the culture that man has created that has survived to our days can not be given a value either; it is a creative manifestation of a past culture. A reflection, or if you will, a testament to the human energy and will. Obviously we speak of very distinct values, and neither are necessarily in conflict with each other.

I'd like to believe that those who can appreciate history for what it is are true lovers of mankind. There is no finer nor a more glorious testimony to human achievement than history. Without it, we lose the meaning of our future. These silly dilemmas serve no use beyond assessing "value" vis-a-vis human life and material culture, without logically or rationally explaining why we can't have both?

In the words of Dr. Youkhanna, the real problem all along was the looting of the unprotected archaeological sites. These are things that have been lost, and now float anonymously as nondescript illicit antiquities. By extracting these artifacts in such manner, the entire academical review becomes forfeit. Crucial data such as location of excavation and a context-based analysis is completely forfeit. From there it's about anyone's guess. A complete catastrophe.

[satalexton]

Hate to be a devil's advocate here, but most humans nowadays are either too busy or too ignorant to care about their roots and past, some are even stupid enough to throw it away for selfish gains and short term profit....and how many forumers are here in EB? How much % of the world's population do we amount to?

I respect your zeal, but this is indeed a struggle that Alexandros himself may find daunting to face....

[jsadighi]

Most off the artifacts,temples and historical goldmines(figurly speaking)are destroyed because off there religion.....its really a shame!!
We have to thank the"Zend Avesta"for this.Without zoroastrianism,religion would not the be same,and i think much friendlier(but that is only my opinion,before SOMEONE starts flaming again)

Totally agree with this. But then again I'm a Persian zoroastrian so I'm kinda biased!

[ziegenpeter]

I couldnt watch this till the end.
Its a pity because historical artifactscan never be reproduced. Same problem with our Historical Archive in Cologne.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Archive_of_the_City_of_Cologne#Collapse_of_the_archive_in_2009

[heldelance]

Human life is not worth as much us a record of our achievements. They will outlive us when we are long lost to the sands of time, those achievements and records will make those after us stop and look. They'll bear witness to our greatest glories and most horrific actions. In a nutshell, our legacy will be like the statue of the Defiant Celt. People are awed by the tenacity, the sheer unwillingness of the warrior to give up, they're also horrified by the knowledge that he and his kind once ravaged the lands and caused fear among their enemies.

[Macilrille]

Human life is not worth as much us a record of our achievements. They will outlive us when we are long lost to the sands of time, those achievements and records will make those after us stop and look. They'll bear witness to our greatest glories and most horrific actions. In a nutshell, our legacy will be like the statue of the Defiant Celt. People are awed by the tenacity, the sheer unwillingness of the warrior to give up, they're also horrified by the knowledge that he and his kind once ravaged the lands and caused fear among their enemies.

But would you give up your life for some of those records? Or your child's life?

Yes I am crazy, and putting things in perspective.

[Starforge]

But would you give up your life for some of those records? Or your child's life?

Yes I am crazy, and putting things in perspective.

You can't really look at it that way, however, and be objective. Self interest is a sure thing in questions like that. Self interest is what creates so many of our opportunities and so many of our problems. Self interest placed those folks in that museum.

Unless you're objection are religious or humanistic in nature, human life is, sadly, very cheaply bought when weighed against knowing where we came from.

I would, personally, rank this up with the sacking of Rome and Constantinople - yet modern political polarization, nationalization, recentness, and pictures will generate far more disdain.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Fondness for Antiquity... Much that we dug from the ruins of Athens was dumped by the Athenians themselves when rebuilding their city. The drive towards the preservation of past relics and the recovery of ancient artifacts is something markedly restricted to certain cultures, and by no means universal, as this example would show.

[Watchman]

Um, no. What we're dealing with here is (or rather, was) the classic phenomenom of what happens when an unpopular repressive regime falls; the people don't regard "public property" as theirs but the hated regime's, and treat it accordingly when the normal rules stop applying.

[Ghaust the Moor]

You people are sick. Not to sound rude but, how can you value something over human life. Yeah, I know doing what's right is the rage and all, but somewhere, in each of our histories, someone was given that choice. What if they had chosen the "thing", You wouldn't exist. If someone holds your children at knife point, and says "Give me the original History of the Pelleponisian War", what would you do? Take a stand? Lose your family? Or do the "right" thing and hand it over. Humans have the survival and Maternal instinct. You will always choose a person over anything. Unless you are a heartless person of course. History is indeed importent, maybe more importent than a single person, but a person's a person, and you still "Love" them. Unless you have such inexorable hatred, I don't see how it's possible to value something more than a person.

[Marcus Ulpius]

Honestly are you crazy? :juggle2:
No, cultural heritage, something the ordinary just started to care about a little with the nationalism, is not worth one single life. I am sorry to be so determined about it, but there is no way to compare a human live to something.

I think you are wrong here. There are some things more important than one human life if we look at the bigger picture. What about the security of the state, what about protecting millions of other human lives. Human life is precious, but everything should be viewed in proper perspective.

As for the museum looting, that's a horrible crime, but I think most of the looters didn't view those artifacts as their history and their heritage. What could be sold was taken, what couldn't - was destroyed. I don't know why, either religious fanaticism (we all remember what happened to Buddha statues in Afghanistan and why) or just a desire of savage mob to pillage, burn and destroy.

[athanaric]

You people are sick. Not to sound rude but, how can you value something over human life. Yeah, I know doing what's right is the rage and all, but somewhere, in each of our histories, someone was given that choice. What if they had chosen the "thing", You wouldn't exist. If someone holds your children at knife point, and says "Give me the original History of the Pelleponisian War", what would you do? Take a stand? Lose your family? Or do the "right" thing and hand it over. Humans have the survival and Maternal instinct. You will always choose a person over anything. Unless you are a heartless person of course. History is indeed importent, maybe more importent than a single person, but a person's a person, and you still "Love" them. Unless you have such inexorable hatred, I don't see how it's possible to value something more than a person.

It's not as easy as that. Furthermore, I'd refrain from calling people "sick" in a debate. What's next, should we call each other "racists" or something like that?
Of course, at gunpoint everybody would choose the life of their loved ones and most would choose their own life over some historical artifacts. Still the latter are more important than most people realize. What is useless though is this whole comparison or choice crap. Why should we even want to ask ourselves vain questions like what would we choose when we obviously don't have to?

In real life I'm frequently presented with ignorance as to how important historical sites and artifacts etc. are. The very same people also tend to be ignorant of the well-being of our natural environment :wall:, which I'd like to remind everyone is still something we are dependant upon lest we simply suffocate.
Besides from the artistic interest we might or might not have in historical artifacts they are vitally important because they can teach us something about the past and the mistakes made back then. Or would you rather have humanity live in happy oblivion? I'd say it wouldn't even be possible.

[Nachtmeister]

Why are we asking ourselves these ludicrous questions? Why would we have to compromise on either?

I'd like to believe that safeguarding and preserving the roots of our humanity, is to do humanity a service. While human life can never be assessed in true worth to material culture, I'd like to believe that the culture that man has created that has survived to our days can not be given a value either; it is a creative manifestation of a past culture. A reflection, or if you will, a testament to the human energy and will. Obviously we speak of very distinct values, and neither are necessarily in conflict with each other.

I'd like to believe that those who can appreciate history for what it is are true lovers of mankind. There is no finer nor a more glorious testimony to human achievement than history. Without it, we lose the meaning of our future. These silly dilemmas serve no use beyond assessing "value" vis-a-vis human life and material culture, without logically or rationally explaining why we can't have both?

In the words of Dr. Youkhanna, the real problem all along was the looting of the unprotected archaeological sites. These are things that have been lost, and now float anonymously as nondescript illicit antiquities. By extracting these artifacts in such manner, the entire academical review becomes forfeit. Crucial data such as location of excavation and a context-based analysis is completely forfeit. From there it's about anyone's guess. A complete catastrophe.

Although I respect your point of view, mine partially differs.
Preserving historical evidence is to do humanity a service.
Human culture is literally invaluable.
"Past culture" is something I cannot grasp as "culture" is as fluid and ambivalent as "spirit". It would end with the extinction of it's members (leaving no descendants). Only then can it be referred to as truly in the "past".
Testament to the human energy and will - yes, but in a neutral sense. In your words it looks to me as though human energy and will were good things. This is quite often not the case. Sufficiently often to cause my brow to throw deep furrows reading your post for the first time. Idealism, as long as it is kept in good measure is fine and cynicism is to be avoided, but skepticism is vital. Extreme or un-checked idealism is very dangerous.

I believe that I do appreciate history history for what it is - but I am certainly no indiscriminate lover of mankind. Glory is to be avoided as it clouds reason, the only thing that can prevent judgement.
Even without material and human life, there always will be a future - although I admit that this is more physics-oriented than pathos-oriented, but pathos and it's consequent obscurities are my contrahend in my struggle for clear vision.

As for the rest - I absolutely agree.


The basic problem behind all this is too much ignorance. Ignorance is very much a product of "human energy and will" - for instance the drive to progenate winning over the urge to learn... And this problem will stay with humanity for as long as we must re-learn everything from communication to ethics with every new generation. Replacing this system by permanently establishing one generation, even if possible, yields another problem: Maybe that one generation has it all backwards and proves unwilling to re-think (which is common for most humans, even dedicated scientists).
With a large proportion of the current generation (at least in Germany) the transfer of ethics, knowledge and skepticism was disrupted by MTV. I wonder whether the damage thus done can ever be repaired - that same majority will progenate massively due to their phallic/animalic nature and they will demand that they receive more MTV and they will have their offspring watch it.
In short, I see idiocracy coming and I do not see much I can do about it without violating the "democratic values". If I violate them, they violate them (they do so either way) and the more I do to stop them the more they do to stop me. There are too many of them to beat in a hostile confrontation. But their capacity for skeptic analysis is over-extended before the first point is made. The only hope lies in perfecting some form of laconic didactics. However, I doubt that many teachers think about such things - those I have encountered usually make a teaching script at the start of their "career" and curse very bitterly when the central government forces them to change it in any way. They told me to shut up if I asked questions not covered by it, rather than even admitting their own ignorance and encouraging me to find out by myself and inform them of my solution.
"Line up and march with the masses, or kill them all and take their material, even lie down and die, but whatever you do, never stop to think about it."
This atmosphere has passed on to universities with the cursed abbreviated study courses advertised by the "bachelor-master" system. Near complete ignorance or extremely narrow specialization, but no profound knowledge.


My conclusion:
The whole chaos was to be expected with dim-wits like Rumsfeld and Bush having taken "charge" of the area - apparently they mistook it for "charge the area" with no "of" in the small print... And they are not the first despots to do this sort of thing.

[Marcus Ulpius]

My conclusion:
The whole chaos was to be expected with dim-wits like Rumsfeld and Bush having taken "charge" of the area - apparently they mistook it for "charge the area" with no "of" in the small print... And they are not the first despots to do this sort of thing.

I wouldn't call them dim-wits. The main problem is that they severely misread the geopolitical situation in the region. Iraq and Iran were canceling out each other, with Iraq prevented Iran influence from pouring into Arab Sunni world and further radicalizing it. With Iraq regime gone, the US actually gave ayatollahs the keys from the Mid-East. We already see radicalization in many Arab countries and cooperation between Sunni terrorist groups and Iran. Actually the most logical step after toppling Saddam was to overthrow the ayatollahs in Iran. Doing one without another was stupid. Now it's much more complicated as Iran are marching fast towards their nuclear weapon, Pakistan on the verge of collapse and the new US administration is going to extremes. While Bush didn't want to talk with anyone, new president wants to talk even with those who should be addressed only by cruise missiles and precision bombs.

[Starforge]

My conclusion:
The whole chaos was to be expected with dim-wits like Rumsfeld and Bush having taken "charge" of the area - apparently they mistook it for "charge the area" with no "of" in the small print... And they are not the first despots to do this sort of thing.

Thing is - there IS no right course to take. Whether you like the direction Obama or Bush took will likely say more about whether you like their ideas in other areas (or your views towards America in general) than how they handle foreign policy. That being said - talking to people aside - Obama's not handling the ME substantially differently than his predecessor. Just because he smiles and shakes your hand while he's stabbing you in the back doesn't make it any less of a stab in the back :beam:. Condemning "torture" while dropping bombs on houses containing civilians hoping to catch a high value target is intellectually dishonest any way you look at it. Killing innocents = ok, simulated drowning with medical personnel present = bad. riggghht.

Politics aside, none of this makes me lament any less the loss of history - even though it's not my personal ethnic history. We are all still Humans - not different or in any way evolved than those people were 5000 yrs ago. Only the tools have changed. I know it's cliche, but knowing where we came from is the best guide to tell us where we're going. We lost some of that here and it's irreplaceable.