(Y)our heroes at work...

[Husar]

Interesting link here. (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/03/07/women_in_military/)

And one from the BBC but it refers to the one above in a way. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8005198.stm)

Some interesting excerpts:


Spc. Mickiela Montoya, 21, who was in Iraq with the National Guard in 2005, took to carrying a knife with her at all times. "The knife wasn't for the Iraqis," she told me. "It was for the guys on my own side."


A 2003 survey of female veterans from Vietnam through the first Gulf War found that 30 percent said they were raped in the military. A 2004 study of veterans from Vietnam and all the wars since, who were seeking help for post-traumatic stress disorder, found that 71 percent of the women said they were sexually assaulted or raped while in the military. And in a third study, conducted in 1992-93 with female veterans of the Gulf War and earlier wars, 90 percent said they had been sexually harassed in the military, which means anything from being pressured for sex to being relentlessly teased and stared at.


Which brings up an issue that lies at the core of every soldier's heart: comradeship.

Well, I for one find that pretty outrageous, but let me mention the good examples as well:


I am not claiming that sexual persecution is universal in the military, or that it is inevitable. Several soldiers I interviewed told me that if a commander won't tolerate the mistreatment of women, it will not happen, and studies back this up. Jennifer Hogg, 25, who was a sergeant in the Army's National Guard, said her company treated her well because she had a commander who wouldn't permit the mistreatment of women.

Sounds like there are some good people as well, but generally I think there seems to be an outrageously high percentage of "heroes" who don't have themselves under control or is it just generally about the army being a bunch of machos?
And what should be done? Nothing? Should we not stop those heroes fighting for everyone's freedom(except women)? Should women not be in the army in the first place? Should the public be more critical of the army? Should I shut my trap because I'm a euroweenie and have no business caring about american women? Does it happen in other armies as well?

I'm interested and annoyed/sad at the same time.

[Lemur]

I don't have a fully developed position here, but I'll throw out some thoughts:

Men who fight in wars have always been extra-aggressive. It's almost stupid to have to say it, but this is relevant. There's a reason that raping and pillaging were standard combat practices pretty much throughout history. (Still are today among less disciplined forces.)

Most soldiers fall into the 18–24 range, at which point in time a healthy male is absolutely flooded with hormones. Not as bad as sixteen, but bad enough.

The only way to combat this sort of thing is leadership. It has to come from the top down; organizations always reflect the person in charge. If senior staff think that women soldiers are inferior and to be shunted aside, this will be reflected in the officers, the non-coms, and eventually the soldiers themselves.

I can't help but think that this may be a generational problem as well. Senior staff will likely be in their fifties right now, which means they grew up in the late fifties/early sixties. They may have attitudes toward women soldiers that can't be changed.

So, two things can ameliorate the let's-rape-the-corporal problem: Time and leadership.

[HoreTore]

Does it happen in other armies as well?

There's no reason to think otherwise.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I don't have a fully developed position here, but I'll throw out some thoughts:

Men who fight in wars have always been extra-aggressive. It's almost stupid to have to say it, but this is relevant. There's a reason that raping and pillaging were standard combat practices pretty much throughout history. (Still are today among less disciplined forces.)

Most soldiers fall into the 18–24 range, at which point in time a healthy male is absolutely flooded with hormones. Not as bad as sixteen, but bad enough.

The only way to combat this sort of thing is leadership. It has to come from the top down; organizations always reflect the person in charge. If senior staff think that women soldiers are inferior and to be shunted aside, this will be reflected in the officers, the non-coms, and eventually the soldiers themselves.

I can't help but think that this may be a generational problem as well. Senior staff will likely be in their fifties right now, which means they grew up in the late fifties/early sixties. They may have attitudes toward women soldiers that can't be changed.

So, two things can ameliorate the let's-rape-the-corporal problem: Time and leadership.

Excellent post. You go straight to the heart of what must be the correct response. The only point where I differ is on staff age. Most military careerists start no later than 25 and only the very highest echelons get to serve beyond 30 years. Darn few 60+ types in the military. Doesn't invalidate your point of course.

[Samurai Waki]

wow Lemur, you've been right on the money all day.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Stop me if I'm lying but, the really sad part is that women face the same thing in many different occupations, it only varies by degree and circumstance. Sexual harassment is everywhere.

[Sarmatian]

Interesting articles, Husar...

Would someone explain men what's the difference, if any, between sexual assault and rape?

[drone]

Would someone explain men what's the difference, if any, between sexual assault and rape?

Not a lawyer, but I believe rape refers to forced vaginal intercourse only, while sexual assault is a catch-all term that includes rape, forced sodomy, groping and maybe even lewd verbal abuse (depending on the PC-level of the jurisdiction).

[Husar]

Interesting articles, Husar...

Would someone explain men what's the difference, if any, between sexual assault and rape?
I think sexual assault covers more, like touching them in the wrong places while rape actually means forcing them to have sex with you.


Most soldiers fall into the 18–24 range, at which point in time a healthy male is absolutely flooded with hormones. Not as bad as sixteen, but bad enough.
That may be right but soldiers also get extensive training to do their job, they are supposed to be able to restrain themselves, maybe this worked back when people were conquered with fear but this is the 21st century and these guys are supposed to spread freedom and democracy. If they rape their own comrades, then how do they treat the local populace?

Of course you were right about the problem having to do a lot with the leadership, as the article says this doesn't really happen if the officers in charge do not allow it, unfortunately many apparently do allow it and the army in general seems to try to hide it as well.

About the generational thing I'm not sure, if the current officers are keeping the younglings down sometimes then that would just mean a lot of the younglings would rape if they were allowed so if they became officers it's likely that they would allow it.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I think the definition of exactly what rape is differs by country - in some countries I'm fairly sure that the word rape is not used in their law codes, but that forced intercourse is legally a more severe class of sexual assault.

Something like that. :dizzy2:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I think the definition of exactly what rape is differs by country - in some countries I'm fairly sure that the word rape is not used in their law codes, but that forced intercourse is legally a more severe class of sexual assault.

Something like that. :dizzy2:

Here's a source (http://www.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/sa.shtml).

[Samurai Waki]

On US Law Regarding Rape/Sexual Assault Seamus has got a good broad article, usually in a court sentencing in the US if someone is accused of rape, then a charge of Sexual Assault goes along with it (which means a larger fine and a longer sentence for the perp). However, as far as molestation is concerned, as long as penetration does not occur, than a person can't be charged with rape, but they can be charged with Sexual Assault.

[Fragony]

Maybe having women in the military just isn't that a good idea.

[rory_20_uk]

Women want to be treated equally as there are no difference between the sexes.
When this patently fails to work they want positive descrimination.

On a side note why the military doesn't have sanctioned brothels is beyond me. The gender ratio is vastly man heavy, and the stark fact is that even men with wives / girlfriends are less faithful in a warzone than married women / girlfriends.

And has been pointed out the men tend to be younger, with probably higher levels of testosterone than average. Couple this with violence and war makes you hornier (genes want to procreate before they're wiped out) having no release isn't clever.

The women aren't distributed equally... No they're not, they're distributed randomly which will form random clusters as well as some platoons with one or none.

Imagine if there was a policy to get a ratio of black / white / asian / whatever evenly distributed in each platoon? There'd be an uproar.

The military is self-selecting. If I were to join I'd probably have a terrible time of it as a grunt: I probably won't talk "right", I'm not fit enough and I think too much. I self select by not going into the military and to a degree the military understands this and lets people in my position join as a Major so the rank protects us.

No army, EVER has spread freedom and democracy. The troops following might have done, but all have killed and mutilated prisoners, raped women as well as a myriad of other warcrimes. Just turning off the hyper aggression that took you up the beach, dealt with the injury and bayonetted 2 men isn't going to just go. In days done by the unpleasant realities of war happened in distant lands and all the frustration had been released on those who never made it to the POW camp.

~:smoking:

[KukriKhan]

I don't know what the heck is going on; 30% raped, 90% harrassed?

Two Army generations ago, when I was active and we had just integrated the old Women's Army Corps into the regular army, rules were very clear: there was to be no (zero) touching, much less assault or rape. I personally saw an otherwise fine Captain lose his career for touching a female soldier on the shoulder and calling her "Hun".

I don't understand the culture-shift of the Army leadership. This stuff is still punishable under the UCMJ - what's the hold-up on prosecuting it to the max, swiftly?

[Husar]

Maybe having women in the military just isn't that a good idea.
Maybe having men in the military isn't a good idea. :idea2:


I don't know what the heck is going on; 30% raped, 90% harrassed?

Two Army generations ago, when I was active and we had just integrated the old Women's Army Corps into the regular army, rules were very clear: there was to be no (zero) touching, much less assault or rape. I personally saw an otherwise fine Captain lose his career for touching a female soldier on the shoulder and calling her "Hun".

I don't understand the culture-shift of the Army leadership. This stuff is still punishable under the UCMJ - what's the hold-up on prosecuting it to the max, swiftly?

That sounds quite opposite to Lemur's generation theory if I didn't misunderstand him. It sounds a bit extreme even but certainly better than rape.

The fact that these men have testosterone issues is not an excuse at all IMO, they're supposed to be professionals and have themselves under control, furthermore their female comrades are just that, comrades, they should get the same respect as all the other comrades, it's not like anyone has heard of one of those females going Olga on a comrade and raping him with Viagra, or is it?

[CountArach]

This is just :daisy: sickening

[Louis VI the Fat]

Soldiers are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy.

Which is, of course, not an anti-militaristic battlecry, but the motto of rightwing warmongerer Henry Kissinger.

However that may be, soldiers need discipline.
There is a discrepancy between the very cultivation of overabundance of testosteron and aggression of young males for your own gain, and the simultanous decrying of the inevitable results of that. Armies breed violence, it is their very purpose. One reaps what one sows. One can not cultivate male violence and not expect mass rape. But armies are also the disciplining of violence, the directing of it towards the others instead of one's own. So discipline and the lash are what armies need.


Two Army generations ago,

I personally saw an otherwise fine Captain lose his career for touching a female soldier on the shoulder and calling her "Hun".Duh, of course he lost his career. Two generations ago, American soldiers were not supposed to make out with, but to kill, the hun. Sheesh. :wall:




~;)

[Vladimir]

One of Vladimir's 80% rules: "There is no rape in the Army."

This mostly applies to garrison life and is less true in the field. The majority of "rape" in peacetime only occurs after the soldier finds out his wife was having an affair. Then it magically becomes rape. Then there is the 16 year old girl who goes for a little GI lovin' in the infantry barracks and gets more than she expected.

The male/female dynamic is much different in times of extreme stress, like in a combat zone. You'll find more instances of actual rape and sexual assault in those circumstances. However, don't look at these numbers and make any assumptions.

One thing that Lemur and the article have right beyond all doubt: Leadership makes all the difference. For example the entire Abu Greb situation all goes back to poor leadership.

Edit: And I mean the commander, not the president.

Oh, and another thing:


Spranger and several other women told me the military climate is so severe on whistle-blowers that even they regarded the women who reported rape as incapable traitors. You have to handle it on your own and shut up, is how they saw it. Only on their return home, with time and distance, did they become outraged at how much sexual persecution of women goes on.

What complete and utter :daisy:!

[CountArach]

One of Vladimir's 80% rules: "There is no rape in the Army."

This mostly applies to garrison life and is less true in the field. The majority of "rape" in peacetime only occurs after the soldier finds out his wife was having an affair. Then it magically becomes rape. Then there is the 16 year old girl who goes for a little GI lovin' in the infantry barracks and gets more than she expected.

The male/female dynamic is much different in times of extreme stress, like in a combat zone. You'll find more instances of actual rape and sexual assault in those circumstances. However, don't look at these numbers and make any assumptions.
It's thinking like this that allows rape to continue in military situations. Are you seriously trying to justify these situations?

[HoreTore]

What complete and utter :daisy:!

Oh yes. Whistleblowers are really encouraged in the armed forced.[/sarcasm]

[Husar]

What complete and utter :daisy:!


Oh yes. Whistleblowers are really encouraged in the armed forced.[/sarcasm]

Not only that, but I've been in situations myself where I only realized what was going on later when it was all over and I thought about it again, not necessarily sexual but how you can completely disregard this is beyond me.

And if soldiers are just helpless testosterone animals who can't control their primate feelings, then the whole thing about being professionals just went down the drain IMO. Professionalism is about striving to be perfect which has nothing to do with letting your inner primate take over. :thumbsdown:

And it's not very encouraging to know that the leadership is not professional either, you wonder why Afghanistan still supports the taliban when your soldiers are a bunch of rapists?
It's not just the rape itself but the fact that they do rape tells me a lot about their general behaviour... :wall:

[rory_20_uk]

Oh yes. Whistleblowers are really encouraged in the armed forced.[/sarcasm]

As opposed to everywhere else which welcomes them with open arms, protects the whistleblowers and ensures that Justice is Done... :inquisitive:

~:smoking:

[CountArach]

As opposed to everywhere else which welcomes them with open arms, protects the whistleblowers and ensures that Justice is Done... :inquisitive:
Then that raises the question of how they should be treated, which is rather disgressionary. I think it would be fairly safe to say HoreTore favours whistle-blower protection in all cases.

[Vladimir]

Not only that, but I've been in situations myself where I only realized what was going on later when it was all over and I thought about it again, not necessarily sexual but how you can completely disregard this is beyond me.

And if soldiers are just helpless testosterone animals who can't control their primate feelings, then the whole thing about being professionals just went down the drain IMO. Professionalism is about striving to be perfect which has nothing to do with letting your inner primate take over. :thumbsdown:

And it's not very encouraging to know that the leadership is not professional either, you wonder why Afghanistan still supports the taliban when your soldiers are a bunch of rapists?
It's not just the rape itself but the fact that they do rape tells me a lot about their general behaviour... :wall:

Again, more assumptions. With little to offer than my own subjective experiences I can assure you this is not the case. What that female soldier said was complete and utter bull.

Oh, wait, I take that back. Rape and sexual assault are tolerated twice as much as racism.

With a zero tolerance policy, you do the math!

[HoreTore]

As opposed to everywhere else which welcomes them with open arms, protects the whistleblowers and ensures that Justice is Done... :inquisitive:

~:smoking:

Uhm.... Did I say anything to that effect? Take a look at the last whistleblower-thread here and see what I wrote there ~;)

[rory_20_uk]

Uhm.... Did I say anything to that effect? Take a look at the last whistleblower-thread here and see what I wrote there ~;)

Sorry - the problem with text is that it can be taken in a way it was not intended. I remember that you agree with this sentiment, and it was sloppy of me not to make this clear. ~:grouphug:

~:smoking:

[KukriKhan]

Duh, of course he lost his career. Two generations ago, American soldiers were not supposed to make out with, but to kill, the hun. Sheesh.

:laugh4: I can't tell you how absolutely tickled I am to have finally received a Louis zinger. Thanks. :thumbsup:

[Husar]

What that female soldier said was complete and utter bull.

Again, more assumptions.
Look, I can answer that with your own words.


With a zero tolerance policy, you do the math!
Do you always believe everything the advertisements and the public spokesperson say? :inquisitive:

[Vladimir]

Do you always believe everything the advertisements and the public spokesperson say? :inquisitive:

You assume I'm using advertisements and public statements as a basis. That's similar to the methodology you're using.

I believe in standard, observed, practices. There are always exceptions to the rule just like there are malcontents who will lie or embellish for whatever particular reason seems important to them at the time.

Another 80% rule (okay, maybe 70): Vehicles are never stolen on military bases. It's usually some Joe who forgot where he parked his car.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Again, more assumptions. With little to offer than my own subjective experiences I can assure you this is not the case. What that female soldier said was complete and utter bull.



You may be right. I saw a similar article about rape in the military posted on a blog once, and not long after it was posted several female soldiers replied saying that the reports were, in their experience, exaggerated.

When asked what job the currently held in the military, they revealed that they were in some sort of PR department... :quiet:

[Husar]

I believe in standard, observed, practices. There are always exceptions to the rule just like there are malcontents who will lie or embellish for whatever particular reason seems important to them at the time.

Well, my link mentions some studies, I thought studies are standard, observing practices, yet you refuse to believe them?
Some woemn say they've been raped and you disregard it and equate it to forgotten cars? What sort of misogynist trip are you on if I may ask? :sweatdrop:

[Vladimir]

Well, my link mentions some studies, I thought studies are standard, observing practices, yet you refuse to believe them?
Some woemn say they've been raped and you disregard it and equate it to forgotten cars? What sort of misogynist trip are you on if I may ask? :sweatdrop:

Apparently there is a language or comprehension error here and I'll leave it at that.

[Husar]

Apparently there is a language or comprehension error here and I'll leave it at that.

Well, you said there is no rape just like there are no stolen cars in the military. Then you explained that it's always some guy who forgot where he parked the car. How you can actually compare thse two things is absolutely beyond me.