Breaking Elite Phalanx units - how?

[Pointed Sticks]

Hello all,

Been playing EB1.2 alot as Romani on hardest levels, been up against alot of elite Greek/Makedonian Phalanx type units, they never seem to break even when totally surrounded and outnumbered. Any fellow armchair generals have suggestions? Do people always have some scary units to hand?

Be nice to hear how other Romani generals deal with the phalanx in general. Only useful tactic I have found is to engage front on then in the back with a second unit, then withdrawing the frontal unit (they get badly mauled otherwise), which often seems to cause disorder in the phalanx, but they still never break!

[DaciaJC]

Apparently, there is an exploit that could help in your case. Have a unit in front of the phalanx selected, and then right-click once behind the phalanx. Your unit will, for the most part, disregard the pointy sarissas and simply walk through them until reaching the men holding them. Another unit charging from the back might cause a bit of chaos in their ranks.

You said you're playing on VH/VH? I hope you know that at VH battle difficulty, the AI gets an enormous boost in some stats, including morale. I doubt that elite units would ever break in those conditions.

[Pointed Sticks]

I always play on VH battles. I like the fact it can go horribly wrong, bit like Crassus losing his head. :laugh4:

[Molinaargh]

You're doing all you can. In VH sometimes it's just not enough.

[O'ETAIPOS]

Compare Pydna description. Agema fought to last man... in VH they sword attack with almost double strength and morale isincresaed by 1/3 from already high levels.

[anubis88]

harder battles in form of VH are not better. I used to play till a few months ago, because i thought the AI can have any boost it can. But once u fight things like phalanxes and horse archers on VH, you see why medium is prefered

[GnaeusCotta]

just use the thracian elites, they cut the falanx down as if it wasn't there

[Megas Methuselah]

You're doing all you can. In VH, sometimes it's just not enough.

Hey guys, try being all serious and say this out loud. It sounds so cool. :yes:

[Spearman]

Hey guys, try being all serious and say this out loud. It sounds so cool. :yes:

It's true...I've been using a clint eastwood esque voice while I say that line. Sounds intense.:evil3:


As far as elites phalanxes go I've got 2 methods. I tempt them away with a disposible calvalry group taking them out of the main battle and exhausting them or I'll evade and deal with them last. Moral is waaay too high on VH to break their will.

[seienchin]

The Phalanx exploit with cklicking behind the Phalanx might be a good choice at Medium, but only with good armoured atack units. Thats why I dont see it as an exploit. Levis getting slaughtered anyway, but on VH even elite getting slaughtered....

[Seleukus]

The Phalanx exploit with cklicking behind the Phalanx might be a good choice at Medium, but only with good armoured atack units. Thats why I dont see it as an exploit. Levis getting slaughtered anyway, but on VH even elite getting slaughtered....

Now if only Darius had been smart enough to do that with his Greek hoplite mercenaries :)

[cmacq]

One of many ways...

First kill the enemy leader or sweep him from the field. Then use your medium foot as the horns of the bull to attack their flankers and drive them from protecting the enemy heavy foot. This will force the heavy foot in the center to turn on your medium foot. As they do, use fire arrows from bowmen placed in your center to pepper the exposed parts of the Phalanx. Then rush in your light foot in the center to pin the rear of the Phalanx, while your medium foot retreats away from their continued advance. As the Phalanx begins to pull apart, slam into its exposed flank with your horse. Timing is everything as games over with very little lose.


CmacQ

[Apázlinemjó]

If you encounter a phalanx without flank protection, you can set an armored heavy infantry unit to loose formation, then let them to charge. Your line will be wider than the phalanx and your unit will outflank the enemy from two sides, butchering them to hell, while you will lose only the guys infront of the sarissas. Of course it's quite hard to lure the phalanx away from the others, but it's possible. Sadly this doesn't work against multiple foe if the AI holds it's battle line together. :inquisitive:

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

phalanx? lol..
give me a sword unit and i break it. :smash: :smash: :smash:
mobility is important and sword is better than spear.:yes:

[seienchin]

phalanx? lol..
give me a sword unit and i break it. :smash: :smash: :smash:
mobility is important and sword is better than spear.:yes:
Unfortunatly spears are really strong and the phalangitai have sowrds too. Especialy on VH its not that easy.
Anyway the best way to kill phalangitai for me was with a lot of light skirmisher cavallery. First tear single units out of the line than fire and mass charge them and so on.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Pin down and charge in the back with:
- Equites Extraordinarii (or other lance cavalry like Thessalian or Thracian)
- Pedites Extraordinarii
- Legionairs
- Wild men
- Axe men
- Falx men
- If you manage to get elephants they might work..
- Throwing Pila in the back or firing other missiles in the back

Good Luck:2thumbsup:

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

I prefer to have 10 phalanx in front than 10 Cretan archers.
Phalanx, I repeat, is effective only against stationary opponents.:yes:

[seienchin]

Again Phalanx on VH is tough. And try to fight a full stack on Huge and get around the phalangitai :juggle2:

Anyway I had a battle against the Ptolli Leader today and my goodness. His Pezhethairoi pinned in the flanks and front charged from the rear by 3 Hetairoi didnt even change to shaken. He had 10 stars and +2 Morale for all units from his trait. His Phalangitai all fight into death :sweatdrop:

[athanaric]

Get tons of falxmen and/or axemen. Even the cheap ones can do the job, provided they are numerous enough. AP weapons are just necessary vs Hellenistic elites. Of the former, clubs have 0.14 lethality, axes and maces have 0.165, falxes 0.26 and some elites like Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi have 0.285.
Falcata and Kopis swords have a very low lethality (0.1 to 0.11), so despite their AP attribute these weapons (employed by the already mentioned Hetairoi or Pedites Extraordinarii) are, vs. armour, not as effective as axes IMO.

Try to get some Worgoz mercenaries (if they are available for non-Germanic factions, that is). These guys have a very rare combination of AP melee weapon and "frighten infantry" attribute.

[Pointed Sticks]

Thanks all for the tips, I have tried most of them and found the falx mercs (bastanae) in the back to be most effective, though I also use some light cavalry to take some enemy elite units on a battlefield tour when theres alot of them. Only problem right now is a shortage of mercs ie bastanae and the wild men.

I cant wait to get the Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi, think I will need them them for AS.

Dont know what a worgoz merc is, tho im curious now...

[Nachtmeister]

Dont know what a worgoz merc is, tho im curious now...

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/picture.php?albumid=162&pictureid=1343

Recruitable in Suebi lands...

[Elcmar]

Dont know what a worgoz merc is, tho im curious now...

If you have a spare Family Member or General, and you don't mind him starving/taking ages to get there and back, send him up on a tour of the german provinces and you should find the Worgozez lurking around somewhere - quite good for breaking phalanx units as they not only have javelins and an axe, they also frighten infantry :smash:

They also look cool too:
https://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6305/germanicinfantrywargoz.jpg

edit: Gah! Nachtmeister beat me to it!

[antisocialmunky]

Now if only Darius had been smart enough to do that with his Greek hoplite mercenaries :)

They almost did after the phalanx stalled out on rough terrain. Greek hoplites managed to really mess up phalanxes more than once.

[Banzai!]

Compare Pydna description. Agema fought to last man... in VH they sword attack with almost double strength and morale isincresaed by 1/3 from already high levels.

Pydna:
25000 Macedonian vs 1000 Roman casualties.
Romans fought outnumbered.

Phalanxes severely overpowered in EB.

[CB_LANNES]

Whatever you do kill the general first! As long as he's alive it's impossible to break them. They'll fight down to the last man.

Bibi

[antisocialmunky]

Pydna:
25000 Macedonian vs 1000 Roman casualties.
Romans fought outnumbered.

Phalanxes severely overpowered in EB.

After playing in the RvG Tournement, I would have to say that the phalanx isn't really all that OP(except to javelins). The engine's modelling of the phalanx is just really ridiculous.

[Watchman]

Pydna:
25000 Macedonian vs 1000 Roman casualties.
Romans fought outnumbered.

Phalanxes severely overpowered in EB.Perseus seems to have totally screwed up in that battle, as his main cavalry strike force apparently never engaged and instead quit the field, and the phalanx was allowed to push the Romans into rough terrain where its line got disjointed. Not only did this result in the usual "internal flanking" of the sub-units, but the Romans were also able to defeat the Mac left wing and turn their flank.

That the isolated phalangites got butchered either there or during the pursuit is pretty much a foregone conclusion.

[seienchin]

Pydna:
25000 Macedonian vs 1000 Roman casualties.
Romans fought outnumbered.

Phalanxes severely overpowered in EB.

You believe the numbers of the battle of Pydna?? :dizzy2::dizzy2:
I doubt that any number of a antik battle is right. Especially the battles the roman won...

[Apázlinemjó]

You believe the numbers of the battle of Pydna?? :dizzy2::dizzy2:
I doubt that any number of a antik battle is right. Especially the battles the roman won...

Yeah, like at the Battle of Chaeronea, Archeaus lost around 80 000 men, while the Romans lost 13 (Sulla claimed that).

[Seleukus]

Yeah, like at the Battle of Chaeronea, Archeaus lost around 80 000 men, while the Romans lost 13 (Sulla claimed that).

Actually, he claimed only 12 - one of the missing soldiers returned after the battle :laugh4:

[antisocialmunky]

Actually it was 14 lost but 2 came back.

[Banzai!]

Apart from Pyrrhus did the Romans ever lose to a phalangite army with ~numerical parity?

[Macilrille]

In all instances against Pyhhros, it was the elephants, not the Phalanx that decided the battle.

And as far as I can recall, the Romans never lost to a Phalangite army. There is an instance of a phalanx holding a breach, but that is hardly surprising that they could do that. A phalanx is virtually unbeatable from the front and in a position where it cannot be flanked it will hold for long.

[Watchman]

I imagine the experiences with Pyrrhos taught the Romans enough of the working basics of how to deal with phalanxes that they didn't have overmuch trouble later. It was, after all, simple enough - try to force combat in rough terrain and flank as much as possible.

[seienchin]

The Carthagenians used phalangitai...
But a classic alexander like army... No:book:

[Watchman]

AFAIK historians get a lot of gray hairs out of trying to figure out if some of the Carthie "phalanxes" were of the old hoplite pattern or the newer Hellenistic pike form... or both. But yeah, in any case those weren't normally their bulk of their line infantry.

[antisocialmunky]

I do believe that Rome suffered initial defeats in some of the Macedonian Wars but it never stuck.

[cmacq]

Actually, he claimed only 12 - one of the missing soldiers returned after the battle :laugh4:


I and others have looked at the Greek texts. Actually, it states that all went missing of which two returned. The two accounts never provide any number for the killed or wounded.

Here is the Greek text for Appian's Roman History: The Mithridatic Wars

Αππιανος Ῥωμαικα Μιτηριδατειοσ

Chapter 45
Αρψηελαοσ δε και ηοσοι αλλοι κατα μεροσ εχεπηυγον· εσ Ψηαλκιδα συνελεγοντο· ου πολυ πλειουσ μυριὀν εκ δὀδεκα μυριαδὀν γενομενοι, Ρηὀμαιὀν δε εδοχαν μεν αποτηανειν πεντεκαιδεκα ανδρεσ· δυο δ᾿ αυτὀν επανὑλτηον, τουτο μεν δὑ Συλλαι και Αρψηελαὀι τὀι Μιτηριδατου στρατὑγὀι τὑσ περι Ψηαιρὀνειαν μαψηὑσ τελοσ ὑν· δι᾿ ευβουλιαν δὑ μαλιστα Συλλα και δι᾿ απηροσυνὑν Αρψηελαου τοιονδε ηεκατερὀι γενομενον, Συλλασ δε πολλὀν μεν αιψημαλὀτὀν πολλὀν δ᾿ ηοπλὀν και λειασ κρατὀν· τα μεν αψηρεια σὀρευτηεντα· διαζὀσαμενοσ ηὀσ ετηοσ εστι Ρηὀμαιοισ· αυτοσ ενεπρὑσε τοισ ενυαλιοισ τηεοισ· αναπαυσασ δε τὑν στρατιαν επ᾿ ολιγον· εσ τον Ευριπον συν ευζὀνοισ επι τον Αρψηελαον ὑπειγετο, Ρηὀμαιὀν δε ναυσ ουκ εψηοντὀν· αδεὀσ τασ νὑσουσ περιεπλει τα παραλια πορτηὀν, Ζακυντηὀι δ᾿ εκβασ παρεστρατοπεδευσεν, και τινὀν Ρηὀμαιὀν· ηοι επεδὑμουν· νυκτοσ επιτηεμενὀν αυτὀι· κατα ταψηοσ εσβασ αυτηισ ανὑγετο εσ Ψηαλκιδα· λὑιστευοντι μαλλον ὑ πολεμουντι εοικὀσ,

Now, the part in question...
Αρψηελαοσ δε και ηοσοι αλλοι κατα μεροσ εχεπηυγον· εσ Ψηαλκιδα συνελεγοντο· ου πολυ πλειουσ μυριὀν εκ δὀδεκα μυριαδὀν γενομενοι, Ρηὀμαιὀν δε εδοχαν μεν αποτηανειν πεντεκαιδεκα ανδρεσ· δυο δ᾿ αυτὀν επανὑλτηον,

I Render as...
Archelaus and all the others excaped divided, in Chalcis from a multitude of one hundred twenty thusand, collected [the] remaining ten thusand. However on the other hand, the Ramans suposed fifteen men [were] dead, of these two returned [alive],

In Plutarch's Σύλλας its:

ὁ δὲ Σύλλας λέγει τέσσαρας καὶ δέκα ἐπιζητῆσαι τῶν αὐτοῦ στρατιωτῶν, εἶτα καὶ τούτων δύο πρὸς τὴν ἑσπέραν παραγενέσθαι.

Which I render as...

'That Sulla says he missed fourteen of his soldiers, and of these when towards evening, two became present'.

So Plutarch's Σύλλας has ἐπιζητῆσαι and in the Ῥωμαικα its αποτηανειν. I don't understand why the two accounts don't jive better?





CmacQ

[Yarema]

I don't play EB for long but i noticed that phalanx is pretty tough. However there is a very easy way to beat the phalanx: do it the same way as Romans did it in history, that's exactly what i do :beam:

1. Use troops that throw javelins before the engagement and make sure that your units throw all or at least most of their javelins before the fighting bergins. The Phalanx is very slow, so you shouldn't have any problems evading their attack until you weaken them with javelns

2. You have to manoeuver yourt units and provoke the enemy to make mistakes - phalanx is very slow, so just move your wwwhole line without breaking formation. the enemy will try to respond to your manoeuvering, but his phalanx is slower then legionary or barbarian troops (i love aunderlining the low speed and clumsinass of the phalanx, hehe:laugh4:). For short moments, gaps will open u in his ranks and flanks will be left uncovered. Exploit hese few short moments: strike within the gaps, use them to get into the enemy's rear if possible, send your caavalry to attack him from the flanks (the enemy might try to counter it with his own cavalry, so be careful and sen some good spearmen at them).

This is how the Romans dealt with the phalanx - they took advantage of the fact that ti was hopelessly slow and they outmanoevered it. Even if you play against a human player commanding phalanx and even if he knoes what your up to,teh slow speed of his phalanx may be his unoding.

The Romans used similar tactics in, for example, battles of Cynscephalae and Magnesia: they disorganized the enemy's ranks by manoeuvering (Cynoscephalae) or by repelling chariots and aelephants and driving them back at the phalanx (Magnesia). Then they quite simply attacked into the gap (or more than one gaps) in the phalanx formation andliterally cut through their ranks (i know i simplifiedthe desciption of those two battles but this is not a thread entirely about them). That's what i do hile playing the romans and works, even no vh/vh difficulty level. It also worked form me while playing barbarians in custom battles against phalanx. Cutting them down with heavy cavalry and horse archers is very similar: deplete them with arrows, ride around to tire them make them and break their ranks, surround them and finish them off one by one.

[Disciple of Tacitus]

Actually, he claimed only 12 - one of the missing soldiers returned after the battle :laugh4:

Sorry lads, had to hit the loo - did I miss anything?

[Celtic_Punk]

hahaha



Charles always did get carried away in battle... he was probably killing survivors when the romans went back to camp for the night.