Russia moves troops closer to Georgia's capital

[PowerWizard]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jfCx1N9TFck0QbhRQt7fnFP_Da1gD97N2Q6O2


KHMAJI, Georgia (AP) — At a military checkpoint between Georgia and its breakaway region of South Ossetia, the word "Russia" is hand-painted in pink on a concrete security barrier."It will be Russia," said a Russian army lieutenant as the Ossetian soldiers under his command nodded.
"And Georgia used to be Russian, too," said the young freckle-faced lieutenant, who would give only his first name, Sergei. Three armored personnel carriers and a tank were dug in around the checkpoint.
Russia has troops just 25 miles (40 kilometers) from the Georgian capital, in violation of the European Union-brokered cease-fire that ended last year's brief war. And in recent weeks, it has put even more soldiers and armored vehicles within striking distance of the city ahead of street protests against Georgia's president.
The protests, which began April 9, drew about 10,000 people Tuesday, and opposition leaders said they would continue daily until President Mikhail Saakashvili resigned.
The demonstrations have been fed by public anger over Georgia's humiliating defeat in the August war, which left Russian troops on previously Georgian-controlled territory and drove tens of thousands of Georgians from their homes.
By reinforcing its military presence at a time of potential political instability, Russia appears determined to maintain pressure on Saakashvili, whom Moscow has openly said must be replaced before relations can be repaired.
Georgia's Western-leaning government accuses the Kremlin of hoping to capitalize on political unrest to restore its influence over the former Soviet republic, which for almost 200 years was ruled by Moscow.
The presence of the Russian troops poses a dilemma for Washington as it aims to improve relations with Moscow. Georgia worries the Obama administration will be reluctant to pressure Russia to comply with the cease-fire while seeking its cooperation on priority issues like the war in Afghanistan and North Korea's nuclear weapons program.
Tensions over Georgia also complicate efforts to restore ties between Russia and NATO, which broke off contacts following the war. Russia has strongly objected to NATO military exercises scheduled to begin May 6 in Georgia and has warned the U.S. against helping Georgia rebuild its army.
The military checkpoint near Akhmaji enforces a new boundary between Georgia and South Ossetia, the Russian-supported region that was at the center of the fighting. After routing the Georgian army, Russian troops took over entire districts of South Ossetia that had long been under Georgian control.
Russian forces also occupied a new swath of territory in a second breakaway republic, Abkhazia, along the Black Sea coast.
The European Union and United States consider Russia in violation of the cease-fire signed by President Dmitry Medvedev, which called for troops to pull back to positions held before the war began.
Russia says the cease-fire has been superseded by separate agreements it signed with South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which Moscow now recognizes as independent states.
The actions by Russia reflect both its military strength and its willingness to challenge the West to reclaim a dominant role in Georgia and elsewhere in its former sphere of influence.
Georgia's government sees Russia as determined to prevent the West from considering Georgia a reliable transit country for oil and natural gas, contending that was Russia's main objective in the war.
The pipelines that cross Georgian territory are among the few that bypass Russia in supplying Europe with energy from the Caspian Sea and Central Asia. During the war, Russia bombed areas near the pipelines.
"Russia wants to be the monopoly supplier," said political analyst Shalva Pichkhadze.
Russia's Foreign Ministry confirmed the Kremlin has sent reinforcements to the boundary lines. It was responding to fears the Georgian government would provoke clashes to distract from the opposition protests, ministry spokesman Andrei Nesterenko said.
Georgia's Interior Ministry said Russia has 15,000 soldiers in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which would be far more than in past months. Since the beginning of April, Russia has moved 130 armored vehicles toward the boundary line from elsewhere in South Ossetia and 70 more have entered South Ossetia from Russia, ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said.
Russia's Defense Ministry refused to comment on the composition of its forces, and Georgia's claims could not be independently verified. European monitors who patrol the boundary lines are not allowed into South Ossetia or Abkhazia, and journalists also are stopped at Russian checkpoints.
Peter Semneby, the EU special representative for the South Caucasus, said the Russian military presence is clearly "significantly larger" than it was.
From a Georgian police checkpoint just 100 yards (meters) from a Russian roadblock controlling access to the village of Akhmaji, a half dozen Russian tanks and other armored vehicles can be seen in the valley.
Local police chief Timur Burduli said the vehicles appeared during the first week of April and are the Russian forces closest to Tbilisi, the Georgian capital. "A tank needs only 40 minutes," he said.
Along the highway to Tbilisi, a freshly dug anti-tank trench stretches across a long field. Steve Bird, spokesman for the EU monitors, said the Georgians have been building such defenses in recent weeks.

I wonder, if the US forces would chicken out in a face to face confrontation...

[Furunculus]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jfCx1N9TFck0QbhRQt7fnFP_Da1gD97N2Q6O2



I wonder, if the US forces would chicken out in a face to face confrontation...

what a pointless comment.

[PowerWizard]

what a pointless comment.

What a pointless comment.

[Sarmatian]

What part of the text is the news here? Russian troops are South Ossetia and Abkhazia for some time now...

[Reverend Joe]

Captain America Sez:

https://img7.imageshack.us/img7/5094/easyrider001.jpg (https://img7.imageshack.us/my.php?image=easyrider001.jpg)

"We blew it."

Not that I would ever argue the Cold War was a good idea, for either side; but by squandering our military power in Iraq we can no longer stop situations like this just by swaggering in like John Wayne. If Georgia is invaded, I have serious doubts about our ability to do a damn thing.

Thanks a lot, Bush... and good luck, EU. You better get France to get its ass back in gear, because for the next couple decades we're out of the World Police action.

[Hooahguy]

the US shouldnt be the police force of the world. if we did not promise mlitary aid to Georgia they should get none. our forces are as tight-streatched as they are. nothing to do with chickening out.

[Reverend Joe]

the US shouldnt be the police force of the world. if we did not promise mlitary aid to Georgia they should get none. our forces are as tight-streatched as they are. nothing to do with chickening out.

We shouldn't be the world police, true, but wantonly invading another country has been a reason for intervention according to every Western country since World War 2. It's a reaction to the step-by-step annexation policies of Germany. By failing to react, we (meaning the global community, not just the US) gives silent assent to the annexation, however much we may preach against it.

[KarlXII]

the US shouldnt be the police force of the world. if we did not promise mlitary aid to Georgia they should get none. our forces are as tight-streatched as they are. nothing to do with chickening out.

Sorry to say that we have given, and will more than likely continue to give, military and financial support to the Georgian state.


The United States works closely with Georgia to promote mutual security and counterterrorism interests. The United States provides Georgia with bilateral security assistance, including English-language and military professionalism training, through the International Military Education and Training (IMET) program. The multi-year Georgia Train and Equip Program (GTEP) ended in 2004, achieving its intended goals of enhancing Georgia's military capability and stimulating military reform. Launched in January 2005, the Georgia Sustainment and Stability Operations Program has advanced GTEP's goals and trained the Georgian contingent participating in coalition operations in Iraq. Partnership with the Georgia (U.S.) National Guard, visits by the Sixth Fleet and the Coast Guard to Georgia, and the Bilateral Working Group on Defense and Military Cooperation are also important components of our security relationship with Georgia.

[Hooahguy]

just because we do doesnt mean we should. im not talking about giving them arms and training. im talking about troops and stuff.

[KarlXII]

just because we do doesnt mean we should.

But the fact we do is the point. Why arm a nation just to leave them to destruction?

[Hooahguy]

we did that with south vietnam and porbably other countries as well. didnt we also arm the Shah? :shrug:

[Che Roriniho]

What makes it funnier is the fact that Georgia started all this. They only have themselvves to blame for this mess.

[KarlXII]

we did that with south vietnam and porbably other countries as well. didnt we also arm the Shah? :shrug:

And?

[Hooahguy]

just sayin'

[KarlXII]

just sayin'

Just sayin' doesn't provide anything to the debate.

[Jolt]

What makes it funnier is the fact that Georgia started all this. They only have themselvves to blame for this mess.

Actually, what started this whole deal was Russia backing illegitimatly and illegally acording to International Law, two regions which should be part of a sovereign state. Before Russia meddling, Georgians and Ossetians lived in harmony, and it is only the hand of Russia which has set in motion this regional problem. If Russia would just worry about its Chechnyas, then maybe we wouldn't see pointless wars, ethnic cleansing and deaths. So the real problem behind this conflict has been, is and will (Probably) always be Russia.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Yeah! Kosovo has no business being free!

/wait a minute...

[KarlXII]

Yeah! Kosovo has no business being free!

/wait a minute...

Relevancy? Kosovo is a break-away state torn by ethnic and political war, same as South Ossetia, same as Chechnya.

[Don Corleone]

Actually, what started this whole deal was Russia backing illegitimatly and illegally acording to International Law, two regions which should be part of a sovereign state. Before Russia meddling, Georgians and Ossetians lived in harmony, and it is only the hand of Russia which has set in motion this regional problem. If Russia would just worry about its Chechnyas, then maybe we wouldn't see pointless wars, ethnic cleansing and deaths. So the real problem behind this conflict has been, is and will (Probably) always be Russia.

There's a fundamental problem with this theory. Regardless of how many points it scores for accuracy and 'on the money' common sense, it categorically fails the "How do we trace all of this back to the US is to blame" test. Russia is to blame, not the US? Can't be, sorry. Try again. :whip:

[KarlXII]

There's a fundamental problem with this theory. Regardless of how many points it scores for accuracy and 'on the money' common sense, it categorically fails the "How do we trace all of this back to the US is to blame" test. Russia is to blame, not the US? Can't be, sorry. Try again. :whip:

A little rant on something no one mentioned, huh?

[Jolt]

There's a fundamental problem with this theory. Regardless of how many points it scores for accuracy and 'on the money' common sense, it categorically fails the "How do we trace all of this back to the US is to blame" test. Russia is to blame, not the US? Can't be, sorry. Try again. :whip:

I fail to understand if the post was a joke, critic, death threat, marriage proposal or something else.

[seireikhaan]

we did that with south vietnam and porbably other countries as well. didnt we also arm the Shah? :shrug:
Just to point out, neither of the examples you listed exactly went(still going) awesomely well after we stopped.

[Reverend Joe]

There's a fundamental problem with this theory. Regardless of how many points it scores for accuracy and 'on the money' common sense, it categorically fails the "How do we trace all of this back to the US is to blame" test. Russia is to blame, not the US? Can't be, sorry. Try again. :whip:

Dude, what?

Don, you must be hammered, because I practically started this thread on a lament on the fact that we are in no position to intervene, and I figure that's probably your primary argument.

Granted, I'm hammered too. So we might not be comunicating with each other... or anyone else.

[Sarmatian]

Comparisons with Kosovo aren't exactly right. Those comparisons would be correct if, let's say, Serbia acquires weapons from Russia, China, India and tries to retake Kosovo by force. Even if Serbia doesn't recognize Kosovo as a state, NATO troops are there according to an agreement with Serbia. Similarly, Russian troops before 2008 were there in agreement with Georgia. Georgia made a bad move, Russia made use of it.

Russia doesn't want NATO around its borders. Georgia wants in, but can't get in until the issue with South Ossetia and Abkhazia is resolved. Saakashvili tries to pull a "Krajina", I guess hoping no one would notice or that Russians would react only diplomatically at first, and by the time Russia does intervene it would all be over. He gives Russia legitimate reason to get involved and Russia uses this perfect opportunity to get what it wants.

Entire situation could be summed up to Saakashvili = idiot. He might have maybe pulled something like that when Yeltsin was in office, but even that is improbable...

[Don Corleone]

I fail to understand if the post was a joke, critic, death threat, marriage proposal or something else


Dude, what?

Don, you must be hammered, because I practically started this thread on a lament on the fact that we are in no position to intervene, and I figure that's probably your primary argument.

Granted, I'm hammered too. So we might not be comunicating with each other... or anyone else.

It was a sarcastic quip, primarily aimed at posts like this:


Sorry to say that we have given, and will more than likely continue to give, military and financial support to the Georgian state.
which to me reads It's our fault because we armed the Georgians. We should have left them with nothing to defend themselves with, so when the Russians came back, they wouldn't have anything to irritate the Russians with

and this:


I wonder, if the US forces would chicken out in a face to face confrontation...

:dizzy2:

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Relevancy? Kosovo is a break-away state torn by ethnic and political war, same as South Ossetia, same as Chechnya.

We blew up a bunch of Serbs who were angry that the Kosovars were leaving. Russia blew up a bunch of Georgians who were angry that Ossetia already left. The US has no credibility in objecting to this.

[KarlXII]

We blew up a bunch of Serbs who were angry that the Kosovars were leaving. Russia blew up a bunch of Georgians who were angry that Ossetia already left. The US has no credibility in objecting to this.

When did international relations require credibility? Georgia is probably no more than a buffer to Russia in the Caucasus.

[HoreTore]

Actually, what started this whole deal was Russia backing illegitimatly and illegally acording to International Law, two regions which should be part of a sovereign state. Before Russia meddling, Georgians and Ossetians lived in harmony, and it is only the hand of Russia which has set in motion this regional problem. If Russia would just worry about its Chechnyas, then maybe we wouldn't see pointless wars, ethnic cleansing and deaths. So the real problem behind this conflict has been, is and will (Probably) always be Russia.

Georgians and Ossetians lived in harmony, you say? When was that, around 600 AD?

Ossetians and Abkhasians have never wanted to be a part of Georgia. Hence the civil war that broke out back in 92, a year after Georgia declared independence. There's no way to blame russia for that war, as Russia was a complete mess at the time.

As for this latest war, I agree with the majority of Georgians that Saakashvili was the idiot behind it.

[Furunculus]

What makes it funnier is the fact that Georgia started all this. They only have themselvves to blame for this mess.

it may well have been a gross error of judgement on Georgias part to attack russia, but that ignores the provocation from russia which had been handing out russian passports and more to south ossettians for years. it was not entirely the fault of Georgia.

[Fragony]

Gambled and lost, let Russia have it, one less kink in the chain when it comes to our gas.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

When did international relations require credibility? Georgia is probably no more than a buffer to Russia in the Caucasus.

Sometimes it's nice to pretend.

[Incongruous]

Lol, Russia being angry, what else can it do other than play witha weak and broken state? Russia is a joke and will continue to be a joke so long as it keeps acting like it is still a first rate power.

The U.S should just put a few soldiers into Georgia, just a few, near the border and the problem is solved. Russia will never dare attack any U.S soldiers and will thus be shown to be nothing but a second rate state, which will shut it up for a while.

If the U.S made friends with Iran and the South Americans, Russia will start feeling very lonely...

[Fragony]

Georgia, just a few, near the border and the problem is solved. Russia will never dare attack any U.S soldiers

Not so sure about that

[Vuk]

Not so sure about that

lol, in fact, I could not disagree more. Nor in fact could I disagree more with the notion that Russia is politically isolated in anyway. If there was a war between the US and Russia, you can bet your boots that it would polarize the world completely, and I am not so sure I would be willing to put any money on the US.
(I know, I am a traitor :P)

[Sarmatian]

Please, just don't let this turn into who would win in a NATO vs Russia + allies conflict...

[Vuk]

Please, just don't let this turn into who would win in a NATO vs Russia + allies conflict...

That wasn't what I was arguing about, I was simply pointing out that that type of attitude could quickly start WWIII, and just about anything could happen.

[rory_20_uk]

I'mnot convinced America would be keen on stretching its forces to face another power.

Russia is a lot weaker, but this is on its boarder, and a long way from the USA. The USA also might need supply routes into Afghanistan via Russia and Europe is basically addicted to Russian gas.

~:smoking:

[Vuk]

I'mnot convinced America would be keen on stretching its forces to face another power.

Russia is a lot weaker, but this is on its boarder, and a long way from the USA. The USA also might need supply routes into Afghanistan via Russia and Europe is basically addicted to Russian gas.

~:smoking:
There are lots of reasons that it would not be pretty, and do not forget the China factor. :P Anyway, this is off topic.

[rasoforos]

For the article:

Oh my. If you look really really close... Somewhere in the middle...Hidden in obscurity...you will see that Nato has scheduled exercises in Georgia. At least the writter had an ounce of shame to put it in and thus make his article only 99% propaganda.

Well guys, when you go and poke the 'bear' with a stick do not be surprised that it becomes a 'bull' and charges.

Instead of allowing normality to be somewhat restored Nato is adamant of seeing how far Russia will go. It does not care if more people will die.

There is a way to help Georgia. And that is not it.







To Reverend Joe:



We shouldn't be the world police, true, but wantonly invading another country has been a reason for intervention according to every Western country since World War 2. It's a reaction to the step-by-step annexation policies of Germany. By failing to react, we (meaning the global community, not just the US) gives silent assent to the annexation, however much we may preach against it.

Double standards. The 'west' did not react when the U.S invaded Iraq either. Or is our definition of 'the west' different?

[tibilicus]

Russia is a lot weaker, but this is on its boarder, and a long way from the USA. The USA also might need supply routes into Afghanistan via Russia and Europe is basically addicted to Russian gas.

~:smoking:


Bingo.

AFAIK the US recently signed a deal with the Russians over Afghanistan, there not going to risk that over Georgia..

Ultimately the U.S wouldn't intervene anyway, they have nothing to gain from the situation.

[Jolt]

Georgians and Ossetians lived in harmony, you say? When was that, around 600 AD?

From the time Ossetians moved to the region, settling in the Georgian principate of Samachablo and the Kingdom of Kartli up until the Bolchevist revolution (Tensions started in 1920). South Ossetia was always part of the Georgian domains, contrary to Abkhazia.


Ossetians and Abkhasians have never wanted to be a part of Georgia. Hence the civil war that broke out back in 92, a year after Georgia declared independence. There's no way to blame russia for that war, as Russia was a complete mess at the time.

As for this latest war, I agree with the majority of Georgians that Saakashvili was the idiot behind it.

Abkhazia was annexed to Georgia while Georgia was already under Russian control, however I fail to see how Ossetians wouldn't want to become part of a country which they had been in for hundreds of years (Prior to the creation of the South Ossetian autonomy), and want to become part of a country ruled by Russians, with whom they have little bonds, other than being manipulated by them.

[Reverend Joe]

Double standards. The 'west' did not react when the U.S invaded Iraq either. Or is our definition of 'the west' different?

That was just plain wrong. We should not have been allowed to invade Iraq without provocation. And when have I ever argued that it was justified?

[HoreTore]

Abkhazia was annexed to Georgia while Georgia was already under Russian control, however I fail to see how Ossetians wouldn't want to become part of a country which they had been in for hundreds of years (Prior to the creation of the South Ossetian autonomy), and want to become part of a country ruled by Russians, with whom they have little bonds, other than being manipulated by them.

You might want to ask those Ossetians fighting against Georgian rule.

Oh no, wait, you said they want to be Georgian, that war thing must've been some kind of a practical joke! :idea2:

[Incongruous]

Not so sure about that

:yes:

I am, Russia is all bluster and people who jump at the chance to draw silly pictures of teh evil bear are dramtics who should be listend too (they are funny), though taken into no account. Its all just another chance for the millitant nationalist crazies (in every country) to start writing articles in some Harvard IR mag about how "the U.S must protect Western Democratic Hegemony":laugh4:.

If the U.S put a few men in Georgia, what is Russia gonna do? Attack them? :laugh4: Then what? Better yet the EU should have a few men there as well, and why not some members of the UN? Why not get more cosy with India and Brazil about a role in the Sec Council? Russia would be even more gutted.

This is all bollox.

[Fragony]

I dunno, I think the bear is far from caged. In a war between the USA and Russia the EU will have no choice but being neutral, I think it would be the USA ending up in isolation. We shouldn't needlessly provoke them ruskies, they can have Georgia all the better for us and it isn't like they didn't bring it on themselves.

[Jolt]

You might want to ask those Ossetians fighting against Georgian rule.

Oh no, wait, you said they want to be Georgian, that war thing must've been some kind of a practical joke! :idea2:

...? I said Ossetian nationalism was fomented by Russia. Decades ago. How can that be misinterpreted?

[rasoforos]

That was just plain wrong. We should not have been allowed to invade Iraq without provocation. And when have I ever argued that it was justified?

Fair enough. My apologies... :yes: