Hellenistic and phalanx related tactics (cave sarissam)

[Nachtmeister]

Ok, so Maion mentioned the Idea to create a specific phalanx-tactic-sharing thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=2224116&postcount=74) - which I liked very much - so here it is.
I will make a start, although I did the graphic part a bit hastily, more will follow with in-game screenshots from custom battles. This is not strictly for PvE-battles, on the contrary - let's have an all-out full metal jacket grinding method discussion.
Quick guideline to prevent this thread from getting locked due to likely (and very welcome) hellenistic patriotism:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/picture.php?albumid=167&pictureid=1385

See, my image is obviously not limited to dry tactics - but it contains tactics as it
represents my standard KH army setup (without KH phalangitai because the Romans usually get killed before I get phalangitai because Spartans don't take kindly to them occupying Taras and SPQR do not know when they are simply outmatched/when to quit).
Actually, this even works against other hellenistic armies... AND elephants... If available, mix some local axemen levies with the paltastai. Or levy hoplites with the main battle line. Rhodian slingers are very much worth the effort of building a corresponding MIC early on. 1 box = 1unit. I tried to approximate the units'
in-game colour schemes. The pink represents all that comes out of those foolish enough not to surrender waaay before first sight.
The arrows are to be applied symmetrically throughout the formation (peltastai, other flank infantry) where only one side was put into the picture to avoid too many criss-crossing lines. For missile units, they represent direction of fire, not movement. Missile infantry and peltastai are key in pursuing routing enemies; the cavalry prevents them from running straight away from them.

I hope for vigorous posting. ~D

Μολων Λαβε!!

[Vasiliyi]

Well, since there is already a hellenic version, i decided to make my own. No offense to anyone ofcourse.

https://img407.imageshack.us/img407/6208/tactics.jpg



:clown:

Well, first the Roman army will march up the the Hellenes, the skirmishers will whittle the enemy down. Then the Hastati will engage, at which the enemy is already wavering, ofcourse. The the Cavalry will flank the sides there there will be a mass rout, including commiting suicide by the enemy general for being a total failure(and coward). The Pricipes and Trarii will just move up, but not fight, as the hellenes will run long before they could engage.

Seriously, that is what i usually do, but at times, where there are alot of Phalanxes, I may need to engage the Principes. The hellenic allied infantry are usually hoplitai or Misthophorio Phalagites (sp?) they work pretty well killing their own kind. Hope this help.s


P.S. This is to show that EB is not a biased game, and that winning is possible with every kind of army composition. Wouldn't you agree?

[Apázlinemjó]

https://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt196/Adamka/nemnvtelen.jpg

The good old berserking ability. :o

[Macilrille]

This thread was prompted by me asking Satax and Maion and all the other Hellene-Adorers about the best tactic for a Strategos to employ. I would appreciate it if we kept it to that as I know well enough how to beat almost any enemy with the Romans and I actually know Viking berserkers that go :furious3:

So I would be happy if we kept to Hellenic tactics, perhaps also how to oppose it with various factions, but that will most likely happen as things evolve and we get into detail anyway.

Thanks

[HunGeneral]

I might have a few tricks for Hellenic armies (with pics) but I can only add them after friday (won't be near my comp till then).

[alexanderthegreater]

I always find it most difficult with succesor phalanxes (with the phalanx ability) to actually engage the enemy. Theyre to damn slow and the AI has just enough sense to move on the flanks, with the effect of a long line of phalanxes standing in the center doing little (sometimes 1 or 2 units but still)
Most important weakness of the phalanx is not so much their flanks but their lack of manouvrability.
I believe historically this is why they were used like a moving fortress, for other units to retreat behind.
One important question is: How to use phalanxes offensively?

Hoplite phalanxes are another story though. They can run, thus effectively engage the enemy center and they're less vulnerable to flanking. They just lack the sheer indestructibiliy of the macedonian phalanx from the front meaning your center may collapse if the enemy provides enough pressure.

I had one battle with the koinon against i think eleutheroi in the bosporus, they were using light infantry (skirmishers, axemen, slingers) in addition to quite some scythian riders.
My force consisted mainly of levy hoplites, light hoplites, some slingers, two units of prodromoi, and some slingers and a unit of hoplitai. I was defending so i hid everything in a small forest surrounded by a plain.

The enemy moved their infantry op to the front of the forest, but instead of engaging fired at me with their scythian riders/horse archers from the flanks. I answered with my sphendenotai and forced the enemy cav into a melee engagement on the right flank where my light cav destroyed them. I used my light hoplites in loose formation and my slingers to cover my left flank.
(those light hoplites are cheap, shield&armor so resistant to missiles, and they have the spear to answer a cavalry charge, surprisingly effective against nomadic cavalry)
With my right free, and my left secured (although both my flanks were somewhat committed) i decided to put it all into a frontal infantry engagement. I put all my levy hoplites and my single unit of hoplitai into guard mode, tight formation and I charged them outta the forest into the enemy. Do notice that the enemy light infantry outnumbered me 2 to 1.
The hoplites though were superb. Clearly superior to macedonian phalanxes as shock infantry, as they pushed the enemy back, devastating their weak morale.
The weakness of hoplites as opposed to phalangites was also made painfully clear though, as the sheer weight of the enemy and the brutal effectiveness of their central scythian axemen meant that although my flanks were advancing, my center was collapsing.
But i charged my by then rested prodromoi into the central gap, and one unit of prodromoi into the enemies rear, sealing the victory.

[seienchin]

My Makedonian Fighting Style.
Works in Eb quite good, but in Rome and Alexander Vanilla its a Killing machine.
http://www.pictureupload.de/originals/pictures/290409110931___26032___12375___12356___12499___12483___12488___12510___12483___12503____12452___1251 3___12540___12472_.png

[V.T. Marvin]

I do not have much experience with phalanxes under my control, as my campaigns so far has been with Romans, KH and the three Easttern factios. But my, admittedly rather short, experience when playing as Baktria confirmed, that the AI is indeed sensible enough to avoid the phalanxes in my center and rather focused on my flanks. Thus the phalanxes, as alexanderthegreater has said, contributed little to the outcome.

To prevent this from occuring, I have adapted my deployment, so that the phalanxes formed my entire first line, whie the rest of my infantry was deployed behind them. Thus the AI was presented with a full-phalanx front. When I advanced my whole army in this formation, the AI usually sent its center to
engage the phalanxes frontally, which was precisely what I wanted to achive, and used its longer front to envelope the flanx of my phalanxes. This manouevere in turn rendered the sides of those flanikng AI units vulnerable to attack by my infantry (here the Baktrian ligh infantry with its javelins and AP axes excelled) which formed my second line leading to rout of both AI flanks and subsequent crumble of the center - already much weakened by the vain frontal engagement with the phalanxes.

Based on this experience, I would recommend - for offenive use of phalanx - to shorten your frontline, so that your front is exclusively formed of phalanxes (three units is more than enough) and increase your depth instead by deploing infantry into second line, somewhat distanced from the phalanx front and with archers and cavalry as the third line.


----------------------------------------------
----------------------AI----------------------
----------------------------------------------


--Phalanx-- --Phalanx-- --Phalanx--

--inf-- --inf-- --inf-- --inf--

--archers-- --archers--

--Cav-- --General-- --Cav--


Note, that in this deployment the archers and skirmishers are especially effective against enemy units who try to outflank your left, because in the process they present their unshielded right side to your fire.

[chenkai11]

My Makedonian Fighting Style.
Works in Eb quite good, but in Rome and Alexander Vanilla its a Killing machine.
http://www.pictureupload.de/originals/pictures/290409110931___26032___12375___12356___12499___12483___12488___12510___12483___12503____12452___1251 3___12540___12472_.png



I like it. By the way, what's the dark green ones?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Light infantry by gauging the cost & distances.

[alexanderthegreater]

Based on this experience, I would recommend - for offenive use of phalanx - to shorten your frontline, so that your front is exclusively formed of phalanxes (three units is more than enough) and increase your depth instead by deploing infantry into second line

Interesting. Especially because alexander did something similar at gaugamela, with his greek hoplites forming a second line. Although with his cavalry at the flanks instead of the back. Could you elaborate on the placement of your cavalry, because clearly you cant charge forward effectively this way?

[Dutchhoplite]

---------------------AI----------------------
----------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------



--light-- --light-- --light--

--inf-- --Phalanx-- --Phalanx-- --Phalanx----inf--
--Cav-- --Cav--
--inf-- --inf--

--archers-- --archers--

--General--

Here's my try:

Skirmishers/ light infantry in front. Phalangitai form the center of my line, supported by infantry and cavalry on the flanks. Usually i form some kind of third line in case of ermergencies and finally there's some fire support.

The general could be anywhere ;)

[satalexton]

This is my general stack composition for Makedonia:

5x Phalangitai [P] (usually 4 standard, 1 elite)
2x Hoplitai [H]
2x Theurophoroi [Th]
2x Missle [M] (depends on the area I'm in. I interchange them depending on the nature of foe I may face, more on that later.)
2x Peltastai [Pe]
2x Pezoi Agema [A] (peltastai makedonikoi and/or hypaspitai)
1x Thraikioi Prodromoi/Prodromoi/various units that fill a similar role. [AC]
1x Hetairoi [HC]
1x HippeisThessalikoi [TC]
1x Hippakonkistai of various types [SC]

Behind each stack, I have a stack (occasionally a half more) of 'baggage train'. While excellent for RP purposes, they fill a more practical role for providing replacements for casualties and hotswap units to fit your main army for the right terrain and foe. This is what I typically have with me:

-1/3 to half the amount of the units aforementioned.
-different types of missle infantry
-local/allied light infantry (thraikioi typically)
-local/allied heavy infantry (galatikoi are FUN)
-local/allied cavalry (tarantikoi or HAs, kinsmen in the east)

Deployment:

[SC][Pe][M][M][Pe][AC]
[P][P][P][P][P]
[TC][H][H][A][A][G][HC]
[Th][Th]
A relatively compact marching block, use group and alt-click to make them march in formation towards the enemy. Remember to turn off phalanx for the phalangitai. If situation allows, now is the phase where the light cavalry moves out to the flanks for harrasement.

The Battleline (Initial):

[Pe] [Pe]
[H] [M][M] [A]
[H] [P][P][P][P][P][A]
[Th] [G]
[Th] [HC]
[SC][TC] [AC]

Quickly deploy into this formation when the enemy is roughly 20-30 metres outside your missle infantry's range. Use skirmish mode and/or formation for peltasts and missle inf. DO NOT use fire @ will for missle inf, Manually use them to hit targets of opportunity. KEEP THEM within the 'cup' formed by the skirmishers.

The peltasts serve to throw a volley at anything that gets too close. Use fire at will. Use this 'skirmishing phase' to quickly like your phalangitai up to a suitable length and thickness.

To Battle!!:

[H][H] [P][P][P][P][P] [A]
[Th][Th] [Pe][Pe] [A]
[SC][TC] [M][M] [G]
[HC][AC]
OR
[Th][Th][P][P][P][P][P][A]
[SC][Pe][Pe] [H][H] [A][AC]
[TC] [M] [M] [G][HC]

These are mostly self-explainatory for any reasonably experianced EB player. The former is a more defensive pin & flank while the latter is an offensive deployment.
Note: These 2 are only one of the many possible deployments.Stick to these at your peril.=] The Key to it all is to keep pushing steadily, Turn off guard mode for the phalangitai when engaged.

To sum it up:
Pikes provide a durable grinding surface that helps you buy time for tactical manuevers. Hoplitai are a good, reasonably mobile line infantry. Thueophoroi are speedy and can support a section of battleline with fierce fighting. Use skirmish and medium cavalry to counter the enemy's cavalry. Use heavy cavalry to go choppy choppy if enemy cavalry are more resilent. Chop them up with your agema and light infantry and charge wavering sections to start a rout. Light and medium cavalry can chase those routers.

I'm at work atm, so if a fellow strategos would like to supplement any ideas to the above deployment, it would be appreciated. i simply don't have time to write a comprehensive guide to this. =]

oh yea, ALL HAIL MAKEDONIA!!!

edit: ok the spacing is messed up, since i typed all this up on a txt file, disguising it as work...go see the attachment.

[V.T. Marvin]

Interesting. Especially because alexander did something similar at gaugamela, with his greek hoplites forming a second line. Although with his cavalry at the flanks instead of the back. Could you elaborate on the placement of your cavalry, because clearly you cant charge forward effectively this way?
You are right, in a sense. The idea is to save the cavalry for the later stage of the battle, so that your horseman are still fresh (and thus faster) to perform one or more of these tasks: (1.) circle around the enemy, once all his units are engaged - so that nothing prevents your cavalry from freely wheeling along his flanks and charge into his rear if needed; (2.) to charge into the rear of those enemy units that managed to outflank your phalanx - the cavalry plays a quick reaction force in this scenario; (3.) to hunt down routers.

In most battles when I deployed my cavalry to the sides of my frontline, the AI usually tried to engage them with its spearmen, thus preventing me from charging or outflanking manouevres and resulting in the unwelcomed development where my center stood idle and th battle was all about the flanks.

It also seems to me, that presenting the AI with homogenous front and/or with apparent baits (like single unit of skirmishers in front of the line) in the center helps the AI to keep its unis in formation little bit better and prevent it from becoming messed all over with isolated units wandering senselessly over the field...

[Zett]

https://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6425/kharmysetupv.jpg
As KH I usually deploy my troops like this or something similar. If the enemy come closer I order my Spendonetai behind my Phalanx (if I'm on higher ground and do not hit my own troops, I continue fiering from this position). My Hippies Xystophoroi (or any other cavalry) normally waits at the flanks or is hidden in a small forest nearby and waits until the biggest part of the enemy is fighting with my Phalangitai and charges then (battle turning moment). Toxotai are ordered to shoot at enemies with no armor, like other skirmisher and cavalry (if they have a higher ground bonus).


Only to put this in the right thread.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[seienchin]

I like it. By the way, what's the dark green ones?

Damn it I forget to name them.^^
They are just light troops, peltats and local mercenaries, often use Galatians. Here is how my formation should work in the second phase. Its a really good flexibel atacking formation and the Ki is mostly responding to it in the following way. It soaks the enemy into your phalanx, because you leave gaps, which are filled with Assault infantry or simply backed up by a phalanx behind it.

http://www.pictureupload.de/originals/pictures/290409150309_as.png

BUT:
It only works against western enemies or other Phalanx armies, who are forming a line. Darthmod, Alexander or BI. exe should give you that experience.^^
It is a modern aproach to Alexanders Gaugamela tactic so really cool for roleplaying

[Zett]

This is my general stack composition for Makedonia:
edit: ok the spacing is messed up, since i typed all this up on a txt file, disguising it as work...go see the attachment.

Sorry, couldn't resist. I hope you like them. Sometimes I wasn't sure if I should leave a "space" between two units or not.

https://img232.imageshack.us/img232/7992/satalexton.jpg (https://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=satalexton.jpg)
https://img512.imageshack.us/img512/1323/satalexton2.jpg (https://img512.imageshack.us/my.php?image=satalexton2.jpg)
Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[satalexton]

BEAUTIFUL, why thank you. AND ALL HAIL MAKEDONIA to you!
Has this =D :balloon3: He is Aristotélēs, treat him well!

As for the spaces, it's really up to the player and situation. I left many things open ended as a testament to how flexible the makedonian army actually is. In fact, if used right, square blocks of phalangitai with space between them are deadly too.

HA! Silly barbaroi, who said the taxis of Hellas are slow and lumbering? We are as nimble as a cat, and as steady as an ox. ALL HAIL MAKEDONIA!!! HELLENES NIKKATOR!!!

[Zett]

BEAUTIFUL, why thank you. AND ALL HAIL MAKEDONIA to you!
Has this =D :balloon3: He is Aristotélēs, treat him well!


Thank you, my noble Ballon collection is growing.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Cute Wolf]

This is my hellenic tactics, not phalanx-heavy, but the phalanx are the key unit afterall...
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=115&stc=1&d=1241084646

My Unbeatable Iudaioi (Ptolemaioi) Army... (Unbeatable, except against missile heavy army such as full stack of Kretikoi or HA's), and most of you I know will complain them because the main tactics is javelin cushioning...:laugh4:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=116&stc=1&d=1241084646

Tested against Seleukid, Sabaeans, and even Romans (Ironnically the Iudaioi can't be trained outside Levant and Mesopotamian, eventually forced me to shuttle them Italy-Antioch-Italy for get retrained...)

The Battle Formation:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=117&stc=1&d=1241084646

The Klerouchikoi Phalangitai was placed in the center, holding their sarissas projected at the front to kill anyone who attempt to smash my formation head on... The Peltastai was placed right behind the small phalanx line to showering enemy (mostly elite) phalanx who try to smash me in the center... The Sphendonitai placed in the center flank... not in skirmish mode and turn fire at will off and on, depending on how far the enemy was. The REAL weapons was the Iudaioi Taxeis, placed in the flank, with fire at will on... the strategos was the only cav unit... placed in the center behind peltastai... to help charge enemy's backs when the fight becomes stranded...

Why I found this army unbeatable? especially against dumb Arche AI (even on Alex.exe AI always attack with full strength and retrained!!!)... Against phalanx-heavy army, the phalangitai will hold the center, while the Peltastai made them javelin-cushion if they dare to get close earlier... The Iudaioi flanks rush to the front and made a single line in each enemy flank, but not too far from my center... fire at will, and extra javelin cushion again... When enemy phalangitai line wander to skewer the Iudaioi, my own phalangitai pwnd their flanks (^^)v, and the Iudaioi on the other side stab them from the back, when they still have any cavalry, the Iudaioi can kill them (they are spearmen otherwise)... The very same goes when the enemy use heavy infantry such as Romans... when they dare to invade Judea, they will face certain death, as they only carry two pilums, but The Iudaioi carry three, and they had 12 morale, could take losses nearly as much as the Romans, giving you use the right tactics and timing to charge... ;p

Fight my army with Heavy Cavalry (melee) is certainly suicidal, and amassing 2 stack full of levies is certainly welcomed as nice thing to eat. My Iudaioi grow to silver chevrons mostly eating Arabs (and pantodapoi), while eating phalangitai is really crunchier... When some enemy are too tough to bite by my Iudaioi, just unleash my Strategos to charge and soften their backs.... so my Iudaioi can eat them properly... Peltastai charge also helps a lot too, especially encircling Argyraspidai and Naked Men (Tindanotae)...

As I said, the Phalanx in the center was the essential unit, because I just need a tough center holder... against frontal attack, the only hope to skewer the klerouchikoi phalanx is smashing them with better phalanx, but the Iudaioi and Peltastai will certainly flank them to the death...

The only downside of this formation is the little cute phalanx fellows placed in the center... they usually just sit down and move a bit, and kill really a few enemies unfortunate walks near them... so their experience gaining is somewhat stuck to level 1 or 2, and with extreme lucky on drag and dropping: 3...

[Maion Maroneios]

Nice to see this thread!

Well, I have several tactics I use, depending on the enemy I face every time. Basically, I use what I call classical "Alexandrian" armies, "Pyrrhic" semi-flexible armies and "pseudolegions".

A typical Alexandrian army of mine, usually looks like this:

-------F-P--P--P--P--P--P-F--------
-----C----M--M--M--M-----C------
--------I----H--S--H-----I--C-------

F: Flankers
P: Phalanx
C: Cavalry
M: Missiles
I: Infantry
H: Heavy Infantry/Elites
S: Strategos

Sometimes, I even substitute the Missiles from the back (usually Archers/Slingers) for a unit of Akontistai in the front of the Phalanx line. Also, the Heavy Infantry/Elites are (obviously) there to protect the Strategos, or to counter any flanking movements. I also prefer to concentrate my cavalry on the right wing, hence the 2 cavalry units there.

I will come back with the rest :beam:

Maion

[Macilrille]

Question for all you Strategoi (?); what about Nomadic HA armies?

I have yet to encounter them as Romans, but I imagine you meet them quite a lot, especially if playing Nactria or AS.

And do your tactic differ against Artificial Idiot and Human opponents?

[Maion Maroneios]

Question for all you Strategoi (?); what about Nomadic HA armies?

I have yet to encounter them as Romans, but I imagine you meet them quite a lot, especially if playing Nactria or AS.

And do your tactic differ against Artificial Idiot and Human opponents?
Actually, while I don't have such great experience fighting nomads, I have had my confrontations with them. Basically, I use maximum 4 phalangites, and many, many Eastern and Skythian bowmen. Also, I like using fast and versatile cavalry against them, like Prodromoi, to chase them down.

When fighting against a player, I vary my tactics. You can't get too predictable, can you?

Maion

[satalexton]

I use less phalangitai, and replace my heavy inf with more missle or cavalry, and field my own HA. it's a matter of harrying them into your prickly bear-trap.

[Nachtmeister]

Question for all you Strategoi (?); what about Nomadic HA armies?

I have yet to encounter them as Romans, but I imagine you meet them quite a lot, especially if playing Nactria or AS.

And do your tactic differ against Artificial Idiot and Human opponents?


First of all, thank you for saving this thread a bit further above - I over-did the "example" and thus created a dangerous spam-is-welcome-climate there in spite of emphasizing the necessity of keeping everything reasonably on topic in the comments below the image... Without your quick intervention we might not be discussing tactics but rather conducting flame wars. So thank you again and have a balloon! -:balloon2:

To answer the question -

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/picture.php?albumid=167&pictureid=1395
Depending on the region and hellenistic faction I am playing,
-Hoplitai may be replaced by Pezhetairoi and Klerouchoi Ph.
-Hippeis Xystophoroi my be replaced by Hetairoi and Somatophylakes Strategou-Hetairoi
or
-one unit of Hoplitai will be replaced by the KH Somatophylakes Strategou if it is a Greek army.

The psiloi obviously depend upon availability (the specific army displayed is very impractical if it's
purpose is to hold the eastern frontier of Arche Seleukeia...) and are replaced with whatever
regionals are to be had. Also, the balance between archers and slingers depends upon whether I
am facing heavy or light HA armies. Ekdromoi can be replaced by Thureophoroi for eastern Hellenes.
If the HA army goes on the offensive, the archers retreat behind the phalanx and the slingers move further out to the flanks (still guarded by the lighter flank infantry and cavalry).
It is crucial to not allow the enemy to circle part of their army beyond the extended parallel line going through the main phalanx (don't want to get hit from a direction where the shield cannot be brought to bear).

The frustrating thing about HA armies is the fact that you can not really take the initiative from them - you are forced to react to enemy movement rather than force a melee confrontation.
Thus, you win battles - but you sometimes take more casualties than against other armies and it takes ages to fight these battles.

Regarding multiplayer battles - I do not think that general tactics are applicable for this because all sorts of abuse can be conducted by human opponents - such as pulling units out of melee engagements prior to routing AND setting up armies with ridiculous unit combinations (Romans composed entirely of pedites extraordinarii an equites extraordinarii plus one unit of gaesatae etc.)...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

That's the line-up with which I won every battle. Two more units of archers replacing heavy infantry for eastern enemies.

https://img301.imageshack.us/img301/210/diemakedonischeschlacht.png (https://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=diemakedonischeschlacht.png)

1st line: Peltastai.
2nd line: Phalanx and Thorakitai on the flanks.
3rd line: 2 x Thorakitai type, 2 x assault type, 1 x Peltastai Makedonikoi
4th line: Archers
5th line: Hetairoi, the General and Thessalikoi / Lonchophoroi
On the outside positions (Thraikioi) Prodromoi

[Nachtmeister]

That's the line-up with which I won every battle. Two more units of archers replacing heavy infantry for eastern enemies.


For taking this thread to the next level of military precision,
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/picture.php?albumid=162&pictureid=1397
verleihe ich ihnen hiermit den hohen Orden vom schwarzen Adler, herr General.
(and to not violate language guidelines:) "I do hereby present you with the high medal of the black eagle, [mister] general."
--no idea what it was originally for, but I think it kinda looks... *Dakka*.

Now there's one for your sig - and you deserve it; I have never seen someone actually apply
the correct tactical symbols to units in army deployment plans posted here.
Libations are due. *blub* :smash:

(*Grumbles* "...dang, now he has set a new standard and I have no program installed on my machine to comply with it...")
HRRRRhmm, Centurio, which program did you use to create this beautiful battle plan? I want it.

[satalexton]

Nach! you forgot to play the anthem when giving him the medal!

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

For taking this thread to the next level of military precision,
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/picture.php?albumid=162&pictureid=1397
verleihe ich ihnen hiermit den hohen Orden vom schwarzen Adler, herr General.
(and to not violate language guidelines:) "I do hereby present you with the high medal of the black eagle, [mister] general."
--no idea what it was originally for, but I think it kinda looks... *Dakka*.
Majestät, ich danke Ihnen. Ich bin tief gerührt ob so einer hohen Ehre - Majestät, ich habe nur meine Pflicht getan. *der alte General drückt sich eine Träne aus dem Augenwinkel*


Now there's one for your sig - and you deserve it; I have never seen someone actually apply
the correct tactical symbols to units in army deployment plans posted here.
Libations are due. *blub* :smash:

(*Grumbles* "...dang, now he has set a new standard and I have no program installed on my machine to comply with it...")
HRRRRhmm, Centurio, which program did you use to create this beautiful battle plan? I want it.
Thank you, but I used Paint. :grin: Now I would use GIMP I think.

[Macilrille]

Oh a Balloon!! My first merited one :-)

I refused one for the Gaesatai- Elephant Joke ;-)


You two should be using the WWII German tactical nomenclature system, it is in fact much more precise. The rest of us can stick to the primitive NATO one ;-)

Soon, probably tomorrow, I will take it up another level with another question.

[Macilrille]

here goes.

Now, Strategos only!!!


What causes you most difficulties?

What I aim at is how you would beat yourself/your own tactic with

1. Another Hellene army

2. Romans

3. Celts/Germans/Getai

4. Horsey-type faction (Nomad/Pahlava etc)

???

No Imperators like me beating their chests expounding Rome, nor even "real" barbarians doing the same though it would be in character. What I want is the Strategos' opinions. The rest of us can supplement with details, etc., but it is the Hellene Lovers' thread this one. Our opinions can come when we have heard what they have to say. This thread is to make us all smarter, to enlighten us.

Thanks.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Alright this is what I made...

Imagine a battle of me (Makedonia) versus the Arche Seleukia (upper half of the pictures).

My moves are red, the Seleukid ones are blue. I am the attacker

We both have strong balanced armies. Also note that this works with the AI not versus smarter human adversaries.

It is divided into 6 phases, which will be in the spoil tags, this is my usual tactic.

Phase 1, we are both deployed.
https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/Tactics-1.jpg?t=1241351584

Phase 2, I maneuvre against the enemy lines. At the left and right the arrows are a bit pushed together, the battle map is of course broader.
https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/Tactics-2.jpg?t=1241351674

Phase 3, the real battle starts
https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/Tactics-3.jpg?t=1241351700

Phase 4, the battle outcome is decided.
https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/Tactics-4.jpg?t=1241351720

Phase 5, destroying the enemy lines.
https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/Tactics-5.jpg?t=1241351762

Phase 6, the battle is won, the enemy troops get killed.:smash:
https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/Tactics-6.jpg?t=1241351780

I usually repeat this against the AI, they never learn from these mistakes.:beam:

~Fluvius

[satalexton]

To me, fighting hellenes are a generally bitter and repetitive matter, not difficult. Poleis-krate are pesky, but obsolete compared to the sarrisae. Barbaroi are fun to kill, as they are a dangerously deranged band of charging bulls-just make sure they charge into your pikes. Romaioi are entertaining, for they are like lemmings making for the ocean. Horse Archers are the only things that can give me a headache if I didn't bring along the right type of troops.

[Cute Wolf]

To me, fighting hellenes are a generally bitter and repetitive matter
Except the dull Arche... they just end up spamming multi stack of Pantodapoi:laugh4:

[glouch]

[med infantry spear/sword]_[phalanx 4 men deep][phalanx 4 men deep][phalanx 4 men deep]_[med infantry spear/sword]
_________________________[archers loose formation]__________[archers loose formation]
_____________[light lance cav 2 units]_______________[general]______________[light lance cav 2 units]
_______________________________[med lance cav]____________[med lance cav]

troop dispositions => goad the enemy into attacking the long phalanx line w/ light cav + archers, then circle all cav behind enemy, kill ranged troops + general(if behind), then charge @ infantry pinned in front of aforementioned phalanx wall. phalanx is thin (4 deep; 3 if depleted force) because they don't have to fight the enemy for long nor defeat them all; their job is to pin the enemy down, and provide an enemy-free area in which to regroup; while the med infantry (such as thureophoroi or bruttians) are only there to prevent the enemy from melting the phalanx wall from the sides.

[Maion Maroneios]

1. Another Hellene army

2. Romans

3. Celts/Germans/Getai

4. Horsey-type faction (Nomad/Pahlava etc)
Hmmm, interesting question. But I believe it would be 1, another Hellenic army. Why? Because, typically, when fighting non-phalanx factions, I just pin the enemy and hammer them with heavy infantry/cavalry. Simple, easy and most importantly: clean. The more you do this, the better you get and the less casualties you sustain.

Now when I fight enemy phalanxes, things can get tricky. If you have the terrain disadvantage, the sarissai can rip you apart in no-time. Also, you have to use better quality phalanxes if you wish to stand against them long enough without having to run back to Hellas for replenishing after the battle. Plus, if you face, say, the Ptolemaioi/Seleukeis, their Eatsern archers can cause massive casualties. Flanking is another pain in the rear, with the terrain and the constant fear of heavy cavalry/missile troops firing at your back. Not to mention that battles tend to last longer than usual too. Last, but not least, the AI formations minimod I use gives the AI phalanx-factions some nice tactics. At least they keep formations, resulting in phalanxes locking, plus occasional flanking maneuvers.

Then again, if you have the terrain disadvantage and you're facing some Romaioi for example, their damn gladii can be spell your disaster. Not to mention their crazy morale: repeatedly charging with Somatophylakes Strategou can be insufficient to break them, where it would scatter any other enemy I face to the four winds in zero time (from the first charge as well).

Maion

[satalexton]

tee-hee-hee~ Silly little Romans...
*sits back and watch them charge the sarissae with their bigga-daggas and Waaagh!!!*
oo look, the red wun'z DO go faster...to see Hades!