should PMs be moderated?

[Hooahguy]

not in the sense that a mod has to read all your PMs, but if you write something vulgar and insulting to someone, you should be held accountable and punished, if reported.
recently a member sent me numerous anti-semitic messages, and because there is a "send without accountability" this member will not be punished.
thoughts?

[FactionHeir]

You can take a screenshot and send it to Tosa.

[TinCow]

Yes, forward the PM(s) to Tosa.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Generally pm's are unmoderated. I don't think it's a hard and fast rule though.

[Andres]

PM's are unmoderated, but that shouldn't be an excuse to abuse PM's to harass someone. Forwarding to Tosa seems a good suggestion.

Alternatively, you can just put the member in question on your ignore list and enjoy the peace.

[Hooahguy]

i did send it to tosa, and he said he cant do anything.
and if i ignore him he can still send me PMs. tried it with another member, and he could still PM me.

[drone]

Can't the board admins access PM boxes directly? Screenshots and "forwarded" PMs could be faked (not saying they are in this case, just saying), and action taken against the sender should be provable. I would imagine that the PMs are stored in the board DB and are accessible to those with the proper access.

Forward the PM to Tosa, I'm sure he can sort it out.

[Andres]

i did send it to tosa, and he said he cant do anything.
and if i ignore him he can still send me PMs. tried it with another member, and he could still PM me.

Yes, they can still send you pm's, but if they're on your ignore list, it reads like this:



X is on your ignore list


Instead of chosing "view message", you can check the box next to them and delete them without reading.

[TinCow]

i did send it to tosa, and he said he cant do anything.
and if i ignore him he can still send me PMs. tried it with another member, and he could still PM me.

If Tosa can't or won't take action against this person, there's not much more that can be done, sorry. If he's already ruled on it, then your only option is to convince him to change his mind.

[Tribesman]

If Tosa is unable to do anything Hooah have you considered posting the PMs on the forum to show the tosser up as a racist bigot for everyone to see ?(or would the posting of racist crap in public be against the rules)

[Hooahguy]

personally, i would love to do that, and expose this guy for who he is, but i think that would be against the rules.

[Tribesman]

Yeah thats a tricky one isn't it , though in theory you could PM someone who doesn't mind getting the warning points that much and they could post it.

[drone]

I would recommend against that. Again, the veracity of PMs forwarded or copy/pasted cannot be verified (as mafia players can attest). Such a public action would open the door to reprisals and false accusations, either related to this incident or others wishing to sharpen their knives and settle scores. Sanctions should be handled privately by the mods/admins.

Now, if the sender is foolish enough to post his views on the public forum, he/she is fair game. :yes:

This incident does bring up a good point, related slightly to the issue we had some months ago with profiles and group boards. PMs are private by nature, and I'm sure they get used to send around illicit links, pics too risque for the Babe Thread, etc. I reread the FAQ, and PMs don't seem to be covered in the rules.

[TosaInu]

Hello,

Posting that would be a problem yes. It's pretty easy to make a screenshot of text in a webpage as has been demonstrated before. Not saying that's what going on now, nor that it has actually being done before, but it's possible and can create persistent, confusing and nasty situations.

There are several problems with this in general.


You cooperate with this Hooahguy? I want to see your PM box and want to hear every detail about the history. Also, what I said in my first PM today is not to be ignored. We can talk about that later.

[Prince Cobra]

Ignore list is your best weapon. :bow:

[Rhyfelwyr]

Just ignore them, being able to do that is the best thing about the internet.

[Hooahguy]

Hello,

Posting that would be a problem yes. It's pretty easy to make a screenshot of text in a webpage as has been demonstrated before. Not saying that's what going on now, nor that it has actually being done before, but it's possible and can create persistent, confusing and nasty situations.

There are several problems with this in general.


You cooperate with this Hooahguy? I want to see your PM box and want to hear every detail about the history. Also, what I said in my first PM today is not to be ignored. We can talk about that later.
tosa-
i give you full permission to my PM list.
and we will talk about the issue before, im assuming about my sig.

[TosaInu]

Hello Hooahguy,

I'll check then. Please PM me more information about the situation and how it evolved, because I need to know more.

Yes, your picture in the signature. Before, the talk before is easy. The picture is too large (see FAQ: limit 10 kb), that's reason enough already to remove it.

[Hooahguy]

is my sig good now?

[TosaInu]

Hello Hooahguy,

Thank you for changing.

When following the FAQ to each letter: no, it's about 16 kb oversized. But I'll leave it for now.

Like said: we'll talk about sizes later. It's not the first time.

I'll focus eye on the other issue now. It's really nice weather and apart from that there are personal urgent things to do, I can't guarantee I'll understand and solve this all in a few days. Sorry, but I'll try. I'll dive into your PM box now.

[rasoforos]

I am glad Tosa Inu is checking this out.

If we allow loopholes for racism and harassment we are gonna open a can of worms so large you wont believe it is possible.

Many of us here, despite the heated discussions, really enjoy the political side of the .org because it is well moderated against racism and racial hatred in general and I wouldn't myself like to see this privilege eroded away due to a technicality.

:bow:

[Dodge_272]

PM's should not be moderated.

PM's that are moderated are just M's.

[Aemilius Paulus]

PM's should not be moderated.

PM's that are moderated are just M's.
I agree. They are called private for a reason. They are the last resort against moderators, and the place where you can discuss anything you want.

[Hooahguy]

i gree too, but when people are harrasing you thru PM its time for the mods to step in.

[Gregoshi]

I agree. They are called private for a reason. They are the last resort against moderators, and the place where you can discuss anything you want.
Email is your last resort if you truly feel threatened by the moderator menace, i.e., take it completely off site.

[Nachtmeister]

It is true that PMs moderated by default would no longer be private.
But moderated upon request and only then (but not afterwards unless requested again) is something different entirely.
In this case here - it is absolutely necessary. How a moderator otherwise gather evidence of offensive/abusive PMs? Someone picking on someone else with racism, of all things, should be permanently IP-banned if exactly this is what is going on and for no other reason than sheer racism. However, this must first be absolutely ascertained by a moderator.
Racism-related conflicts - as any other personal conflicts - *can* be very complicated.
(I will not underline this with examples because I only want to state an opinion on the topic question, not spark a wild inflammatory side-topic discussion.)
If for some reason the PM-abusing user felt provoked from something - be it purposeful provokation or just a mistake - they might turn out not to be actual racists after all but just an angered user trying to "retaliate" and not being very smart/creative about it. In this case, measures must still be taken against such behaviour, but then a permanent IP ban could easily be over the top.
To settle such things, moderators must have insight into *all* exchanges, direct or indirect, that have taken place between the parties involved. Justice needs omniscience...
So for this purpose, I must say I am all for moderators looking into private messages - upon explicit request by the user who's private messages are to be looked into.

[Ser Clegane]

Personal view:
PMs should generally not be moderated - however, if tools offered by the org (e.g., PMs, Social Groups) are abused for e.g., continuous harrassment of individual members or for illegal activities, staff should reserve the right to intervene on a case by case basis.

:bow:

EDIT to add:

upon explicit request by the user who's private messages are to be looked into.
This is an important point - staff should not be able to check PMs without the consent of the recipient or sender.

[Nachtmeister]

This is an important point - staff should not be able to check PMs without the consent of the recipient or sender.

Well from TosaInu's posts in this thread, I gather that they technically can, now.
And I do not see how they should be technically barred from doing this without severe restrictions in other areas and consequent repercussions/loss of authority.
To me, it is more something like a matter of honor.

[TosaInu]

Hello,

Moderators are 'cop' so to say in their assigned forum. In other forums they can gib bots (buy product X accounts), harassing alt accounts (when I say so), but basically they are just member there.

Moderators can't moderate profile pages or social groups; members are responsible to keep that tidy themselves. I can and will.
Moderators can't read PM boxes from others.

I'm in no way happy with moderating PM's; actually, the hippie inside is not happy at all about having such things like rules or moderators, let alone myself. Perhaps it's just because nothing of that was there when I joined, but it's proven many times that a site simply can't function without such things.

[Togakure]

:beam: "... the hippie inside ...?" I wouldn't have guessed. Thanks for the grin.

I don't know if this board is technically capable, but at another forum I occasionally frequent, you can block PMs from any members except moderators and admins. Thereafter, you won't receive PMs from them, and when they try to send you a PM after you block them, they'll get a message that they have been blocked from sending PMs to you. It seems a mechanism like this might help in situations like this.

[Dayve]

Two things. First one, no, i don't think PM's should be moderated, but i do think a forum should be moderated, because what happens when a forum isn't moderated is people post pictures of goatse and such, and the forum is ruined. This is why i said what i said to Hooahguy in a private message, because it was unsuitable for the forum, not because i'm ashamed of anything that i said. So, Tosa, you're a dysfunctional moderator, and technically you've abused your power. The only proper action for dealing with PM's you don't like is to block the user, simple as that.

Second, as for naming and shaming your racist and how it wouldn't be right to do it, i'll do it myself, it's me. Although, i don't see how being an anti-semite can be racist when Jews aren't a race, but a religion. A backward and disgusting religion that has no place in a modern world.

If i am racist for being an anti-semite, then i'm also racist for being anti-christian, anti-muslim, anti-mormon, and anti-every religion that exists. You learn something new everyday don't you, and to think all this time i thought i was just intolerant, but no, i must be a racist.

[Nachtmeister]

Dayve, while I must take distance from what you said about specific religions, I will clarify something about the terms you used in your last post.
"Semitic" does not refer strictly to any religion; it is an ethnicity.
"Caucasian" is another example for an ethnicity.
"Jewish", "Christian", and "Muslim" refer to religions, not ethnicities.
"Anti-ethnicitism" is a certain form of "racism"; thus, people will assume that you are a racist if you state that you are "anti-semitic".

[Andres]

I would like to point out that stating that a certain religion is "A backward and disgusting religion that has no place in a modern world" violates the forum rules.

[TinCow]

Second, as for naming and shaming your racist and how it wouldn't be right to do it, i'll do it myself, it's me. Although, i don't see how being an anti-semite can be racist when Jews aren't a race, but a religion. A backward and disgusting religion that has no place in a modern world.

Speaking as an atheist who still strongly considers himself a Jew, you clearly know nothing about Jewish culture or tradition. It takes a lot to get my hackles up, but you managed it with this post. It's no wonder I can't shake off constantly feeling different just because of my ancestry (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=109096) when there are people like you out there.

[TosaInu]

Hello Dayve,

True, a forum has to be moderated and it is. Moderators clean up public stuff.

What you said to Hooahguy could be said in many better even totally acceptable ways, instead you chose to be rude.

You didn't restrict to just that PM, you also posted something in public which was cleaned up by me:

'I'd like a signature with Iran's president Ahmedinejad on the left when he made his speech about looking forward to Zionism being wiped off the map, and on the right, maybe a Palestinian militant or a dead baby from Gaza killed by an Israeli bomb, and in the background i would like the Iranian flag.

You know, something that screams my political views and provokes people everytime i post, kind of like Hooahguy has.'


It could be said that you abused the PM system. It is not moderated and I really don't want it. That doesn't mean members can use that part of the forum to harass other members. And exactly that is what you did. Hooahguys picture in his signature was too big in kb and also politically charged (slippery slope I know). I can't speak for the other moderators, but I am not around 24/24 and if I were, I might even miss his. You have two soft sticks to message either Hooayguy or me. Instead you started a rant. It being private is irrelevant. Your complaint was correct, the way you dealt with it was not.

Hooahguy allowed me to check his PM box. After learning about his side of the story I asked you.
After exchanging several PM's and reading what you posted in public it was more than clear to me what to do. I recommend you to flash.

[Dayve]

It isn't moderated and you don't want it to be moderated is a stupid thing to say when you're going to moderate it anyway as soon as somebody requests it.

And you people can stop arguing technicalities and being so pedantic with me, Jews are not a race, they are a religion, at best an ethnicity. I don't care if some people consider it racist to be intolerant of a religion or an ethnicity because it isn't, it's culturally or religiously intolerant, and i'm proud to be that way.

[Dayve]

And since you've made me a junior member i can't edit my posts, so i'll have to double post, which is breaking another forum rule, but hell, one more won't hurt.

All i wanted to edit with was that this is the last thing i'm saying on the matter.

[Andres]

It isn't moderated and you don't want it to be moderated is a stupid thing to say when you're going to moderate it anyway as soon as somebody requests it.


A member who abuses a certain feature of the board to harass another member with hateful messages shouldn't be surprised that he has to face consequences.

It's nothing more than common sense, really.

[Tribesman]

I don't care if some people consider it racist to be intolerant of a religion or an ethnicity because it isn't, it's culturally or religiously intolerant, and i'm proud to be that way.
So you are by definition a bigot and like most bigots you don't have the brains to realise that stupidity is not something to be proud of .

[Ja'chyra]

I don't think PM's should be moderated unless someone asks that theirs are, that being said the Org isn't the place for anti-semitism, racism or any other hate speech even if it's in a PM, so I would have dealt with it as if it had happened in a public forum.

Oh, and calling the admin stupid makes you open game for the ban stick imho

[Hooahguy]

:no:
for shame, Dayve, for shame.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Oh, Dayve. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP8fGU81V0Y)

[LittleGrizzly]

Dayve im not sure if your an idiot, a troll or just slightly confused... ill give you the benefit of the doubt confused one ~;)

(above is meant to be friendly dig rather than condesending....)

Saying you don't like jews is kinda like saying you don't like black people and a bit different from saying you don't like christians... if you don't like somebody because they are black, jewish or white... you are a racist and promptly need education!

If you simply dislike people for being a member of any religion (or even just the big three monotheistic ones) then thats just a bit silly... there are plenty of good people who are religious, pleny of people who do many good things and don't allow thier personal belief to spill over to other areas of thier lives.....

If you just dislike the big organised religions themselves then you seriously need to word it much better... you'll find quite a few people in the backroom who strongly dislike any of the organised religions but can converse with christians and others on the matter in a mostly civil manner...

Err... no pms shouldn't be moderated, slight privacy issues but on the whole to much work, i don't so much mind someone allowing a mod/admin to see thier pm inbox if they have been getting abuse...

[Dayve]

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong. You've probably offended more people with your post than i have with mine. Saying you don't like Jews is like saying you don't like blacks?

Was that a joke? Was it? Because i laughed myself half to death, my stomach feels like i've done a thousand situps.

I said i wouldn't say anything else on the matter and it's difficult when my patience is being tested like this, so it would be nice if the moderators could lock this thread, or do you only take requests from minorities?

[Andres]

No, we are testing your patience :coffeenews:

[pevergreen]

You can be intolerant of things, its just generally best to not shove that on other people, which is what I'm thinking happened? I personally despise art and everything relating to it, because I simply cannot see how people think it is good. Oh wow, its a big painting. Why should you pay $20 000 for it?

But actually voicing that opinion lost me some very dear friends. So, I know that is my opinion, and in the right circumstances, I would say so, but not in the middle of a nice discussion group about art.

Now, I'm not as jewish as other members here, but I count myself closer to it than any other religion. I don't even know if its a race or what, but it slightly offended me, and I take a lot to offend/disgust.

:no:

[Tribesman]

my patience is being tested like this
No , it is your intelligence that is being tested , so far you have shown that you don't really have any of worth, then again that is usual with bigots so no actual surprises there.

[Nachtmeister]

So you are by definition a bigot and like most bigots you don't have the brains to realise that stupidity is not something to be proud of .


No , it is your intelligence that is being tested , so far you have shown that you don't really have any of worth, then again that is usual with bigots so no actual surprises there.

No matter what dimensions a flame-war takes and what it's reasons are - as long as it is not about saving someone's life, seeing people opportunistically backstab a single individual engaged on several fronts makes me feel sick. It is just not honourable.
Neither is the cause for this thread, but that does not mean that now everyone is entitled to verbal abuse - it would be a medieval misconception of "justice".
It would be prudent to stick with constructive criticism, better yet some advice. Lacking that, at least direct insults should be avoided imo.
There are other things you can post to express such harsh feelings in order to dissipate anger; immediately one comes to mind that would even befit the custom user title of your victim in a sarcastic way, possibly even concluding any further flaming:

>+++*>

Unless of course you were making some point here that I missed - but if so, I must have missed it thoroughly. Do not take too much offense at this - I do not know you or your personal background, but as stated and explained above, I strongly disagree with fighting fire with more/bigger/stronger/faster fire. It would burn the house down...

[Tribesman]

It would be prudent to stick with constructive criticism, better yet some advice.
Good point .
Constuctive criticism .... it appears that someone holds very bigoted views , such views tend to imply that such a person has some form of intelligence inadequacy .
Advice .... if you are a bigot and cannot learn that your views are really silly and offensive then perhaps you should consider if those views should be expressed so openly as people will only view you as stupid .
Is that any better Nachtmeister ?

[Dayve]

such views tend to imply that such a person has some form of intelligence inadequacy.

Or simply despises that which they are bigoted against.

I could also point out that there have been a great many personal insults directed at me in this thread, which is against the forum rules, yet i have made none. I honestly don't mind being insulted, i don't give a thundering frick what a bunch of strangers i will never meet think about or call me, so I'm not going to go squealing to the nearest mod anytime somebody hurts my feelings, but this is just another prime example here of what is good for the goose must also be good for the gander, there can't be one rule for me and one for everybody else.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

but this is just another prime example here of what is good for the goose must also be good for the gander, there can't be one rule for me and one for everybody else.

Well there can be actually. You see, you're in the minority on this forum, and we're very proud of discriminating against minorities :coffeenews:

any warnings for insults in this thread are kept private, like all warnings except bans/temp bans

[LittleGrizzly]

You know... I think i made one of the nicest posts to you and i think im the only one who got abused... lesson learnt there...

Continue your trolling and get banned... I for one will be happy to see the back of you...

Ohh and btw... http://judaism.about.com/od/orthodoxfaqenkin/f/raceorreligion.htm

While the full answer is exhaustive - the short answer is: The Jews are both a race and religion.

Though i have links saying both so i can say im not sure which is right, what i can say is that if you believe someone born of a jewish mother is somehow less than everyone else then you are infact a complete idiot...

If you dislike religion so much you need to learn to be a little repectful and at least discuss it civilly...

[Crazed Rabbit]

No matter what dimensions a flame-war takes and what it's reasons are - as long as it is not about saving someone's life, seeing people opportunistically backstab a single individual engaged on several fronts makes me feel sick.

Tribesy's not backstabbing anyone.


Or simply despises that which they are bigoted against.
Hmmm... (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot)


bigot:
a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices ; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Bigotry is the result of a lack of thinking.

Well, all that's needed to be said has been said. Still looks like he hasn't got a clue, though.

CR

[Tribesman]

Or simply despises that which they are bigoted against.
Is that a textbook definition of racist idiot ?

[Hooahguy]

I could also point out that there have been a great many personal insults directed at me in this thread, which is against the forum rules, yet i have made none.
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
maybe you should re-read your posts...

[Nachtmeister]

Good point .
Constuctive criticism .... it appears that someone holds very bigoted views , such views tend to imply that such a person has some form of intelligence inadequacy .
Advice .... if you are a bigot and cannot learn that your views are really silly and offensive then perhaps you should consider if those views should be expressed so openly as people will only view you as stupid .
Is that any better Nachtmeister ?

Yes, especially the advice part, thank you for bearing with me rather than taking offense.


Tribesy's not backstabbing anyone.
Hmmm... (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot)
Bigotry is the result of a lack of thinking.
Well, all that's needed to be said has been said. Still looks like he hasn't got a clue, though.

Depends on your precise definition of "backstabbing" - in this case similar to "ganging up" but with the added quality of consisting of content that would normally/whenever coming out-of-the-blue be absolutely unacceptable on the forums. Here, even some moderators are -albeit mildly- partaking in a general anti-Dayve attitude (however the comment about "warnings remaining private" is somewhat suggestive that there is more than meets the eye here). But in the reply post it is all a lot better.

Now about "having a clue" or not (Dayve, sorry for third-person referral here but I believe the following can be applied generally, not only *here*, so no offense intended) - there are imo three possibilities in this sort of situation of one person with a "counter-proven" stance holding up against a multitude of others (with some neutral members added to the mix).
-The person does really not follow the reasoning, still convinced of their own views and not deeming it necessary or even possible to prove with arguments but holding up for zeal's sake
-The person has understood the reasoning but cannot concede points made for pride's sake / for fear of being humiliated by following the reasoning of others who will deride them no matter what
-The person is deliberately keeping up the discussion for the sake of argument ("trolling")

Have I forgotten something? And I mean, something qualified that does not consist of "X is a jerk" or similar?
Otherwise, I conclude that in two out of three cases it no longer has anything to do with bigotry. Especially the second point is why I posted the "backstab-comment".
All three points lead me to the conclusion that this thread has somewhat run it's course...

[Dayve]

Is that a textbook definition of racist idiot ?


:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
maybe you should re-read your posts...

It leads me to the conclusion that half the mods are Jews. :laugh4:

[Andres]

It leads me to the conclusion that half the mods are Jews. :laugh4:

Your point being...?

[LittleGrizzly]

Nachtmeister, good post well written and i partially agreed with it, but dayve's next post...

It leads me to the conclusion that half the mods are Jews.

then his new signature

Proud not to be Jewish!

I tend to come to the defence of people when everyone seems to be ganging up on them, even if they've done something i really hate... think im just a bit soft...

But i think despite your best efforts Dayve is determined to show us he is a bigot or a troll... judging by other posts ive seen off him on the forum i don't think its just for the trolling... considering he is making the extra effort to insult i don't think he thinks hes been proven wrong and is keeping up the act...

In honour of you Dayve im going to put an Israeli flag in my signature, despite my dislike of thier policys...

[Hooahguy]

So, Tosa, you're a dysfunctional moderator,
insult #1


A backward and disgusting religion that has no place in a modern world.
insult #2

just FYI.

[Caius]

It leads me to the conclusion that half the mods are Jews.
But they aren't common Jews! They are Communist Jews!

Don't feed the trolls. He did that a lot of times, yet he is still here. He is like Warman, but Warman can be rehabilitated. I don't think Davye could be.

[TosaInu]

Pending.