Are the west's morals self defeating?

[rory_20_uk]

I was reading this (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6207487.ece) but there are several other examples mainly in either Africa or Asia.

The West likes to tightly tie aid and investment to social development / "western" values, reducing corruption etc etc. China... doesn't.

There comes a point when foreign countries get so sick of the pontificating of the West that they think "sod it" and decide to try China, who will view things as a pure business case where strategic value is included.

Here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6201333.ece) again we have another west-leaning country which wants nuclear technology. I would imagine that if they can't get it off the USA et al there's a good chance they'll give others a try

From Sudan to Shri Lanka these situations are dreadful. But if the west is not prepared to bend at all, all that is going to increasingly happen is that they in turn ignore the West and things will get worse as there would be no need whatsoever for restraint.

I feel that aid should be removed and replaced with business partnerships and far more loosely tied to an export of western morals. :soapbox:

Do others think that this is going into a too immoral world?

~:smoking:

[Husar]

Well, I think it's a very complicated matter but generally convincing people of certain values is probably better than forcing them to accept them.

[InsaneApache]

I'll tell you what's immoral. Giving millions in aid to a country with it's own space program. WTF is that all about? :dizzy2:

[Kadagar_AV]

/me is having the standpoint that nations should evolve by themselves...

The Iraq war was a typical example, why remove a dictator? If it#s a problem, his own people will do it, history has shown that again and again.

Don't met me wrong, I dont want to steer this topic to the Iraq-war, it was just used as an example.



Another example, the catholic church... They give LOTS of AID to africa, but only if the government agrees to anto-condoms campaigns. This is a nation where AIDS have gone out of control. *rolleyes*


Busyness deals? SURE... but leave the morals at home, your own home.

[Fragony]

Been saying so for years, takes a crisis.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Another example, the catholic church... They give LOTS of AID to africa, but only if the government agrees to anto-condoms campaigns. This is a nation where AIDS have gone out of control. *rolleyes*

Sarah Palin, give Kadagar his account back!

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Another example, the catholic church... They give LOTS of AID to africa, but only if the government agrees to anto-condoms campaigns. This is a nation where AIDS have gone out of control. *rolleyes*


Which isn't true at all, but whatever.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Yay another thread derailed by the Pope and condoms!

I am not surprised that these states turn to the Chinese. I remember coming across the idea of 'trade off theory', that states when a developing nations seeks to develop its economy, it must strinke a balance between human/labour rights and fast paced development. If western nations put to much emphasis on things like wages and environmental protection, they will never be able to offer the same levels of growth that Chinese investment will.

These things should be allowed to happen naturally, the process of industrialisation was hardly a pleasant one for the west.

[Marshal Murat]

The West ties developmental funds to "Western Values" because those are the most profitable and most sustainable practices. When the "West" provides money and aid, we want those adventures to succeed and to also benefit the population in some form or fashion. You can't sit there and tell me that "reducing corruption" and "vaccination campaigns" are either bad things to do or less conducive to the most profits from any monetary adventures. Even if we don't give them money, we want to help people (i.e. Peace Corp, Doctors without Borders, UNICEF). That isn't so bad, now is it?

Chinese development regardless of human rights is more "profitable" in the short-term, but how long will the people who work in Chinese owned-mines willingly put up with the abuse and danger inherent in a job that seeks to withdraw the most resources at the lowest costs. They may have tons of cash from profitable Chinese ventures, but they'll have to pay more to keep those down-trodden from uprising against them.




From Sudan to Shri Lanka these situations are dreadful. But if the west is not prepared to bend at all, all that is going to increasingly happen is that they in turn ignore the West and things will get worse as there would be no need whatsoever for restraint.


I think here we encounter one of the greatest paradoxes of current international relations. The United States does most of the "Westernizing" if I don't miss my mark. This naturally places us in a position of "power" per se, with some attached benefits. Yet this "Westernizing" is often viewed as economic imperialism (rightly so in some cases, I'll admit it). So they turn to other countries, who strong-arm countries into favorable deals without a squeak. I think one could watch Syriana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriana) and Quantum of Solace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_of_Solace) and see both sides of the story.

So perhaps we're going to a more "immoral" world, but that's why God made Texas.

[Kralizec]

I think we need to distinguish investment and development aid.

Western companies invest in third world countries. Western governments give development aid, often with too little strings attached (and I think giving money to corrupt governments in order to combat corruption and other bad things is a flawed strategy to begin with)

The Chinese government is essentially just a big corporation who invests, and doesn't give development aid out of any altruistic motive. They don't give a hoot about spreading morals or whatever, just as long as the recepient doesn't give official receptions to the Dalai Lama or stuff like that.

[Tribesman]

I think we need to distinguish investment and development aid.

Western companies invest in third world countries. Western governments give development aid, often with too little strings attached
It hard to distinguish really . Like giving development aid for a dam and irrigation project but attatching strings to link that aid to a massive arms deal .
So really this west's morals thing rory mentions is actually bollox , come to think of it as he mentions Sudan how easy is it to link supplying military equipment to the current regime there with the British government ?

[Fragony]

It hard to distinguish really . Like giving development aid for a dam and irrigation project but attatching strings to link that aid to a massive arms deal .


Aye, aid my :daisy:, it's blackmail, don't like it, fine we will support the opposition instead. We should stop flooding their markets give the guys a fair chance, China is the better partner.

[CountArach]

I feel that aid should be removed and replaced with business partnerships and far more loosely tied to an export of western morals. :soapbox:
So you would seek to replace western morality with western Capitalism?

I have a feeling they aren't going to appreciate that one either. I'm also not entirely sure how you arrive at this opinion... Our morality is incompatible with their way of life... so we should stop sending aid?

[KukriKhan]

Are the west's morals self defeating?

I don't think so, unless defeat = a total inability to thrive.

However, western moral codes don't always export well, without adaptation to the 'new' environment.

[Sarmatian]

I think in this case the most interesting thing would be a definition of western morals or western moral codes...

[Furunculus]

if china is why sri-lanka is finally able to ignore the carping of the west and exterminate the vile tamil tigers then i am all set to cheer china (and sri-lanka) on.

i have a very low opinion of western aid practices, we say a lot about helping others, democratic values, and reducing corruption, but then lock those others into a death-spiral of economic obsolescence, while creating a political class that does not need a democratic mandate because of the tsunami of aid money they corruptly siphon off create dependant client supporters.

[Tribesman]

if china is why sri-lanka is finally able to ignore the carping of the west and exterminate the vile tamil tigers then i am all set to cheer china (and sri-lanka) on.

So while people worldwide are condemning what they rightly call genocide you are all for extermination.
You really are beyond contempt .

[Fragony]

if china is why sri-lanka is finally able to ignore the carping of the west and exterminate the vile tamil tigers then i am all set to cheer china (and sri-lanka) on.


The Tamil people do have a justified grievance here and there :inquisitive:

[Incongruous]

if china is why sri-lanka is finally able to ignore the carping of the west and exterminate the vile tamil tigers then i am all set to cheer china (and sri-lanka) on.

You don't have a clue do you?
You don't have a clue what the Tamils went/are going through do you?

[HoreTore]

You don't have a clue do you?
You don't have a clue what the Tamils went/are going through do you?

Are you forgetting that the reason the Tigers are the only representative of the tamils, is because they've killed and exiled every other tamil faction?

Good riddance to them, I say. Their cause was just, their ways despicable.

[Husar]

Always interesting to hear the BBC on the Tamil tigers where you first get to hear government shelling of civilian areas and then some guy from the government who denies they are using artillery at all. :inquisitive:

I don't really know much about the whole conflict but I guess both sides are full of it. Yeah I know, I'm just too much of a chicken to pick a side and cheer as they genocide the others but that's how I see it.

[Tribesman]

Are you forgetting that the reason the Tigers are the only representative of the tamils
Is it because it was Tamils who lost their vote , lost their right to equal education , lost their political representation and had their language banned ?

Their cause was just, their ways despicable.
Despicable yes , but no more despicable than the sri lankan government , one slight difference though , when the government made even non violent political campaigning illegal for the tamils it closed the door on anything but violence from the tamils whereas the Sinhalese use violence even though the constitution allows them to campaign peacefully . So really in that sense the government is far more despicable than the terrorists .

[Furunculus]

So while people worldwide are condemning what they rightly call genocide you are all for extermination.
You really are beyond contempt .


You don't have a clue do you?
You don't have a clue what the Tamils went/are going through do you?

ooh, so much excitable hand-waving, i feel really cowed.

the tigers are vile, and i want to see them gone so that sri-lanka can return to some kind of normalcy, for that reason i am happy to see every single one of them exterminated.

[Fragony]

the tigers are vile, and i want to see them gone so that sri-lanka can return to some kind of normalcy, for that reason i am happy to see every single one of them exterminated.

That would do the trick, but the government isn't just interested in the tigers.

[PershsNhpios]

What I would like to know is what all of this has to do with a handful of clog-slinging dutchmen and a couple of Germans.

[HoreTore]

Is it because it was Tamils who lost their vote , lost their right to equal education , lost their political representation and had their language banned ?

No. The LTTE have consistently hunted down and killed every opposing Tamil faction. The Sri Lankan government made things hard as hell, but if LTTE hadn't gone about killing everyone, then there would've been other factions, although it's unlikely that any of them would've been as big as the tigers, of course.


Despicable yes , but no more despicable than the sri lankan government , one slight difference though , when the government made even non violent political campaigning illegal for the tamils it closed the door on anything but violence from the tamils whereas the Sinhalese use violence even though the constitution allows them to campaign peacefully . So really in that sense the government is far more despicable than the terrorists .

I never said I didn't want to see the Sri Lankan government whacked and replaced too....

[Incongruous]

No. The LTTE have consistently hunted down and killed every opposing Tamil faction. The Sri Lankan government made things hard as hell, but if LTTE hadn't gone about killing everyone, then there would've been other factions, although it's unlikely that any of them would've been as big as the tigers, of course.
I never said I didn't want to see the Sri Lankan government whacked and replaced too....

The LTTE is only around because the Sinhalese government destroyed Tamil society and culture, just as is the case of Hamas, I cannot blame them for what they are. The Sinhalese can blame themselves, luckily most Tamils (that I know at least) are very keen on peace. The International community should force the Sinhalese to accept the reality of Tamil self-rule, then the LTTE can be dealt with.

Sri-Lanka is a prime case of the "West's" lack of international moral policy, fine by me but I don't want to hear Westminster, Paris, Berlin or Washington calling one group terrorists and the other a "legitimate government". It's bollox.

[Incongruous]

normalcy

Oh you mean ethnic cleansing!

:book:

[Furunculus]

you mean you want the sri-lankan gov't to treat the tamils decently? how novel, so do I!

insert random smiley here for no particular reason > :wall:

[Incongruous]

you mean you want the sri-lankan gov't to treat the tamils decently? how novel, so do I!

insert random smiley here for no particular reason > :wall:

You said no such thing and you know it.

[Furunculus]

You said no such thing and you know it.

so what, i want every bodies gov't to treat its citizens decently so i didn't think i had to specify an obvious truth, and at no point did i make any statement that indicated the opposite.

[HoreTore]

The LTTE is only around because the Sinhalese government destroyed Tamil society and culture, just as is the case of Hamas, I cannot blame them for what they are. The Sinhalese can blame themselves, luckily most Tamils (that I know at least) are very keen on peace. The International community should force the Sinhalese to accept the reality of Tamil self-rule, then the LTTE can be dealt with.

I am in no way saying that the Sri Lankan government isn't to blame for LTTE, but it remains a fact that the LTTE hunted down and killed other tamils during their rise to prominence, like the entire leadership of TELO, for example.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Let the Tamils and the Sri Lankans sort it out for themselves. It has relatively little relevance to our us or our situation at the moment.

[Tribesman]

You said no such thing and you know it.
But you must understand that some people make such stupid statements either regarding torture or in this case genocide that they find it impossible to defend those actual statements ...so you are left with a ridiculous
so what

[Furunculus]

what statements have i made on torture or genocide that are ridiculous?

off the top of my head -
on torture; i said that i agreed with effective interrogation measures, and recognised that barbaric torture methods were ineffective.
on genocide; i didn't say much at all, i was referring to the tigers as an organisation, not the tamils as a people.

go on, spit it out..................

"so what"

would that be tribesman debating tactic number three, or is their room for a fourth; deconstruct a statement to the point where it bears no resemblance to the context of the original sentence...........?

[Tribesman]

what statements have i made on torture or genocide that are ridiculous?
What statements have you made that are not?

[Furunculus]

wow, i might have to make a fifth rule which deals with the tendency to veer off into inanities.

there are two example above, the two you have already questioned, you might start with those.........

[Furunculus]

interesting article on the western social democratic consensus, from the point of view of a gay yank:
http://www.city-journal.org/2009/19_2_pim-fortuyn.html

[HoreTore]

Let the Tamils and the Sri Lankans sort it out for themselves. It has relatively little relevance to our us or our situation at the moment.

Yes, why should I care about other people than myself?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Yes, why should I care about other people than myself?

You can care however much you like - but this isn't our fight. If you want to mediate talks, on the other hand, go right ahead. I don't want to see military involvement or aid, however, because this is a complex war which is none of our business.

[HoreTore]

You can care however much you like - but this isn't our fight. If you want to mediate talks, on the other hand, go right ahead. I don't want to see military involvement or aid, however, because this is a complex war which is none of our business.

Ah, I misunderstood you then.

My apologies. :bow:

[Furunculus]

bit OT, but an interesting account from an ex Tamil Tiger:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/srilanka/5283438/Life-as-a-female-Tamil-Tiger-guerilla-relived-by-one-of-first-female-soldiers.html