Kyrene - A case for a new Faction

[Phalanx300]

Kyrene – A case for a new Faction

A short History from Wikipedia:

The Greek period:
Cyrene was founded in 630 BC as a colony of the Greeks from the Greek island of Thera, traditionally led by Battus I, ten miles from its port, Apollonia (Marsa Sousa). Details concerning the founding of the city are contained in Book IV of Histories, by Herodotus of Halicarnassus. It promptly became the chief town of ancient Libya and established commercial relations with all the Greek cities, reaching the height of its prosperity under its own kings in the 5th century BC. Soon after 460 BC it became a republic. In 413 BC, during the Peloponnesian War, Cyrene supplied Spartan forces with two triremes and pilots.[1] After the death of Alexander III of Macedon (323 BC), the Cyrenian republic became subject to the Ptolemaic dynasty.
Ophelas, the general who occupied the city in Ptolemy I's name, ruled the city almost independently until his death, when Ptolemy's son-in-law Magas received governorship of the territory. In 276 BC Magas crowned himself king and declared de facto independence, marrying the daughter of the Seleucid king and forming with him an alliance in order to invade Egypt. The invasion was unsuccessful and in 250 BC, after Magas' death, the city was reabsorbed into Ptolemaic Egypt. Cyrenaica became part of the Ptolemaic empire controlled from Alexandria, and became Roman territory in 96 BC when Ptolemy Apion bequeathed Cirenaica to Rome. In 74 BC the territory was formally transformed into a Roman province.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/Mediterranean_Relief-zoomed-Cyrene.jpg

Information on the faction leader Magas Kyrenaios:

Magas of Cyrene (r. 276 - 250 BCE) was a Greek king of Cyrene (today's Libya). He managed to wrestle independence for Cyrene from the Greek Ptolemaic dynasty in Egypt. Magas was the son of Berenice and Philip, a Macedonian noble man, before Berenice remarried with the powerful Ptolemy I Soter, founder of the Greek Ptolemaic dynasty in Egypt. Magas was a half-brother to their son, Ptolemy II Philadelphus, the second Ptolemy ruler of Egypt.

Magas received the governorship of Cyrene from his mother Berenice. Following the death of Ptolemy I, however, Magas tried on several occasions to wrestle independence for Cyrene, until he crowned himself king around 276 BCE. Magas then married Apama, the daughter of the Seleucid Empire king Antiochus I Soter, and used his marital alliance to foment a pact to invade Egypt. Apama and Magas had a daughter called Berenice II, who was their only child. He opened hostilities against his half brother Ptolemy II Philadelphus in 274 BCE, attacking Egypt from the west, as Antiochus I was attacking Palestine. However, Magas had to cancel his operations due to an internal revolt of the Libyan nomad Marmaridae. In the east, Antiochus I suffered defeat against the armies of Ptolemy Philadelphus. Magas at least managed to maintain the independence of Cyrene until his death in 250 BCE, upon which the kingdom was almost immediately reabsorbed by Ptolemaic Egypt.



As you can see Kyrene would make for a interesting faction, under king Magas it declared its independence in 276 BC, just 4 years before the starting date of the mod. He was even able to attack the Ptolemaioi land!

Gameplay wise it would form a buffer state between Carthage and Ptolemaioi, it would also force Ptolemaioi to fight on two fronts and thus making a yellow death less likely.

Kyrene would start out allied with Arche Seleukeia and as an enemy with the Ptolemaioi.

They would start out with the province of Kyrenaia:

https://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3760/kyrenecase1.jpg (https://img14.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kyrenecase1.jpg)

Victory Conditions (To be updated):

https://img6.imageshack.us/img6/1081/kyreneexpansion3.jpg (https://img6.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kyreneexpansion3.jpg)



Possible Unit List(using Koinon and Ptolemaioi Recruitment viewer province information):

Units Mic Level

Toxotai Level:2
Thureophoroi Level:3
Thorakitai Level:4
Sphendonetai Level:2
Peltastai Level:2
Pantodapoi Level:1
Machimoi Phalangitai Level:2
Machimoi Hippeis Level:3
Lonchophoroi Hippeis Level:4
Klerouchoi Phalangitai Level:3
Agema Klerouchon Hippeon Level:4
Klerouchon Agema Level:4
Hoplitai Level:3
Hippakontistai Level:1
Mistophoros Strategos Level:5
Akontistai Level:1
Lonchophoroi Hippeis Level:4
Iphikratous Hoplitai Level:3
Hoplitai Haploi Level:1
Hippeis Level:3
Ekdromoi Hoplitai Level:2


They would be a mix between the Koinen Hellenon and Ptolemaioi.
A Hellenic city with many Hoplite soldiers but also with many successor influences and Klerouchoi and native soldiers!


They start out with (exact units Kyrene rebels have ingame):

In city Kyrene:
Magas Kyrenaios (54 years) – Lonchoporoi Hippeis
1 Klerouchoi Phalangitai
1 Hoplitai
2 Hoplitai Haploi
1 Peltastai
2 Akontistai
1 Spendonetai
1 Machimoi Hippeis

Outside Kyrene:
Philon (27 years) – Machimoi Hippeis
2 Hoplitai
2 Akontistai
2 Machimoi Phalangitai



Faction symbols could be:

http://www.aeqvitas.com/kyrene.jpg

Alexander with horns of Zeus-Ammon, Grain Symbol for wealth of Kyrene.

http://www.urth.org/whorlmap/alexander-horns.jpg

Better coin of Alexander with horns of Zeus-Ammon.

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/marksj/epic/epic_images/images11_lucan/zeus_ammon.jpg

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/conservation/technologies/graphics/zeus_ammon_original.jpg

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/sg/sg1399.jpg


Zeus-Ammon, probably a winner!


Sources:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrene,_Libya

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magas_of_Cyrene

http://www.aeqvitas.com/photo.php?term=%0D&precanned=Greek

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/marksj/epic/epic_stygds/epic-sg2.html

http://www.urth.org/whorlmap/quetzal.htm

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/conservation/technologies/graphics/zeus_ammon_original.jpg

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/macedonia/aphytis/i.html

[Reverend Joe]

That's pretty darn impressive; the only problem I can see is that Cyrenia would almost never last more than a few turns except if controlled by a human player. Of course, the same is often true with Pontos; but even then Pontos only needs to face one giant, whereas Cyrenia would find itself facing two, with no place to expand, as there would be no nearby neutral provinces.

[Phalanx300]

Well they don't start with bad relations with Carthage, Kyrene has the opertunity to snatch some Ptolemy territories away. That added with Seleucids in Palestina definately gives it a chance to survivce.

Though not much direct rebel territories for it to conquer, just two. Then again the factions leader has Egypt in mind.:whip:

[/Bean\]

Wouldnt that wipe the Ptolemaoi out really early?

I am all for a faction between Egypt and Carthage though.

[Hax]

Historically, did Kyrene wish to expand?

[abou]

Yes, but it was short lived. Magas of Kyrene entered into an alliance with Antiochos I to attack Ptolemaic holdings, but the support from Antiochos never materialized. Magas' assault ended with lackluster results, to say the least.

[Phalanx300]

From the Biography from EB (yes he has one :dizzy2:) it says that his first attacked failed because of a Libyan rebellion and afterwards peace was made with the Ptolemies I believe. With Magas his daughter marrying and getting kids with the new Ptolemy.:inquisitive:

Anyways, it would make for a nice faction :2thumbsup:. I wouldn't really worry about the Yellow death getting destroyed. I mean how many factions do the Seleucids face? :whip:

[antisocialmunky]

I would say include some more land(islands, Magna Grecia, etc) to their victory conditions to make it a little more challenging for the human. The main issue from the gameplay point of view is whether or not the logistics can support the faction fighting Egypt(settlements need to be easier to stand up for Kyrene - and have good native/faction units - rather than Ptoly). It would also be more playable if they had some decent hoplite-type heavy infantry units. Does anyone know what they fielded?

[lenin96]

Maybe Krete, Meroe and Axum shouldd be added to their victory conditions?

[Jolt]

Expanding West up to modern Tunisia would also make sense to be implemented in the victory conditions.

[Megas Methuselah]

Expanding West up to modern Tunisia would also make sense to be implemented in the victory conditions.

Would it?

[Ibrahim]

My god!

never mind. interesting-there were people depicted with horns on them-what's up with that?

[Megas Methuselah]

Alexander with horns of Zeus-Ammon, Grain Symbol for wealth of Kyrene.


Better coin of Alexander with horns of Zeus-Ammon.

:yes:

[Phalanx300]

I think we could better settle with a god then with a general :whip:. And Zeus Ammon, especially on the last coin looks quite good. :idea2:


Anyways, I updated the victory conditions. I think that some coastline of Asia Minor would also be in order with Syria as well? Together with some more Carthage coastline with Magna Greacia as well. (+ Rhodes)

[MButcher]

As far as victory conditions, I think that conquering as far west as Carthage is unrealistic.

I agree that Egypt should be in there and it's starting possessions, because of Kyrene's dealings with the Ptolemaioi.

As for the west, Lepki would be believable because of the contest that the two cities had over territories (that running match that's in Lepki's biography).

[Jolt]

Would it?

Geographically close, connected by land, plus with the fact that Libyans also had made part of Tunisia.

[Phalanx300]

As far as victory conditions, I think that conquering as far west as Carthage is unrealistic.

I agree that Egypt should be in there and it's starting possessions, because of Kyrene's dealings with the Ptolemaioi.

As for the west, Lepki would be believable because of the contest that the two cities had over territories (that running match that's in Lepki's biography).

Well Pontos also has to capture many miles inland of Tracian and Dacian land, which also isn´t really realistic.

Carthage is right next to them so it would be quite logical of them to expand that way. See the expansion of the Romans, they conquered all ways but not with Rome being a border city, a center city.:2thumbsup:

[eddy_purpus]

Niiiice New case....
Good-ly presented ...
Decently described ...

Id give this a good 8 out of 10 ;)

[Cyclops]

My first thought was "meh, show me the Mauryans" but thats my first thought on any given day. On reflection Kyrene was a serious local player, with an expansionist hellenistic leader, and its definitely consistent with factions like KH and Hai as something that could be big.

If factions could revive (oh please yes) then even though they might be conquered easily they would make a nice rebel threat to the Ptolemies (or the Hai, once I lead my armoured horsemen down the Levant to conquer the Nile).


Would it?

IIRC there's a wonder in the province west of Kyrene which is the tomb of two brothers (etc etc...) that suggests that Poeni and Hellenes had entered into serious negotiations as to who owned that strip of land. I think thats a reasonable basis for giving them at least one VC province to their west.

Maybe Kyrene could be interested in islands as well?

[Hax]

My main problem is, how would Kyrene's gameplay really differ from Ptolemaioi/Koinon Hellenon play?

[Phalanx300]

We could say the same of Pergamon and Pontos. Its definatelly a whole other experience down there!

[Krusader]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, as the presenation is good.

However, take this into consideration. There are currently 22 factions revealed and there will be 30 factions.

Epeiros
Makedonia
Koinon Hellenon
Ptolemaioi
Pergamon
Pontos
Arche Seleukeia
Baktria

...these 8 factions are all Hellenistic, out of a grand total of 30 factions. Meaning almost 30% or over a quarter of our factions are Hellenistic, so that is a counterargument too. While the Greeks rightfully should have most factions at this time period, EB wants to give all cultures "an equal chance in the spotlight".

And to clarify...there are 8 factions still not revealed. There is a chance 1 or more of them can be Hellenistic factions as well, so no need to ask that question. :sweatdrop:

[Hax]

We could say the same of Pergamon and Pontos. Its definatelly a whole other experience down there!

Pergamon and Pontos both would have access to large variety of Greek, Thracian and Galatian troops. Kyrene would have the Greek hoplites combined with what? Nubian infantry? Machimoi? Garamantines? There is little variety in the south, compared with Asia Minor and Thrace.

Pontos is not Hellenic. It is philhellenic, yes, but they are still a Persianide kingdom.

[Phalanx300]

Pergamon and Pontos both would have access to large variety of Greek, Thracian and Galatian troops. Kyrene would have the Greek hoplites combined with what? Nubian infantry? Machimoi? Garamantines? There is little variety in the south, compared with Asia Minor and Thrace.

Pontos is not Hellenic. It is philhellenic, yes, but they are still a Persianide kingdom.

Kyrene would have a large force of Hellenes but also many natives!

A mix between the Koinen Hellenon and Ptolemies. And if they conquer the Ptolies and basicly replace them then it can be sure that they would also make good use of local troops like the Galatians!





I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, as the presenation is good.

However, take this into consideration. There are currently 22 factions revealed and there will be 30 factions.

Epeiros
Makedonia
Koinon Hellenon
Ptolemaioi
Pergamon
Pontos
Arche Seleukeia
Baktria

...these 8 factions are all Hellenistic, out of a grand total of 30 factions. Meaning almost 30% or over a quarter of our factions are Hellenistic, so that is a counterargument too. While the Greeks rightfully should have most factions at this time period, EB wants to give all cultures "an equal chance in the spotlight".

And to clarify...there are 8 factions still not revealed. There is a chance 1 or more of them can be Hellenistic factions as well, so no need to ask that question.

2 New factions have been released? Care to explain which is the second one? :2thumbsup:

Personally I hope that besides Pergamon there will be another Hellenic heavilly influenced faction, which is a given seeing that there is a Hellenic occultus unit!:yes:

Kyrene had the chance on becoming a big power at this time so who knows! What I would give to see the new faction list :whip:!



Edit: I updated the victory conditions again! More eastern shore seemed like the logical thing. I'm wondering whether Bostra and Meroe and that far Lybian territory also need to be included.

[antisocialmunky]

Getting oreoed between good unit quality Carthage and very numerous Ptoly would be fairly fun I think. The KH is pretty much 'move north' and conquer Demetrias to win the game. Kyrene would also hopefully keep the Carthiginians on their toes so they don't ship out every unit to Sicily so the Romans can land a hail mary and take Carthage's core cities.

[PraetorFigus]

I like the idea, but I wonder what the EB team has in store for the new factions.

Can't wait for the next preview (whenever it's ready)!

[athanaric]

However, take this into consideration. There are currently 22 factions revealed and there will be 30 factions.


Call me stupid, but what is the 22nd faction? Is it the Eleutheroi?


Btw, I enjoyed this presentation. I dunno though if it would be necessary for Kyrene to conquer Qart-Hadast and Atiqa. Were they really that aggressive in westward expansion?

[Rilder]

Call me stupid, but what is the 22nd faction? Is it the Eleutheroi?


Its been hinted that there's going to be another Nomad faction, No specifics though. (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=2097631&postcount=8)

[antisocialmunky]

Something to make Eastern Europe more itneresting would be great. Another German or Steppe tribe would be great.

[Krusader]

22nd faction was a mistake on my part. I was thinking 21 EB1 factions + Pergamon and then forgot it included Eleutheroi.

Although maybe that nomad faction will be revealed sooner than later...

[Kara Mustafa]

http://www.urth.org/whorlmap/alexander-horns.jpg

Better coin of Alexander with horns of Zeus-Ammon.

Wonder if this has anything to do with the Islamic view of Alexander. In Quran there is a mention of Dhul Quarnayn, The Two-Horned One, whitch probably corresponds to Alexander the Great. Sorry for being OT...

[bobbin]

Thats how the theory goes, his coins were distrubuted all over the middle east and the horned image was the most common way of depicting him.

[Ibrahim]

Wonder if this has anything to do with the Islamic view of Alexander. In Quran there is a mention of Dhul Quarnayn, The Two-Horned One, whitch probably corresponds to Alexander the Great. Sorry for being OT...

actually, my first post here was basically just that- recognition of the source of the "dhul qarnayn" (when I said: my God!). I was surprised that there were depictions of Megas of that style, with the ram horns. i honestly didn't know till now.

all I know is that the story in the Qur'an was adressed to a particular tribe in Medinah-apparently, jewish tribes from the area shared stories of the self same character.so its not a uniquely "islamic" view, nor was it specifically meant for muslim consumption, but top establish "common cause"...(I've read enough tafaaseer on this :book:)

[antisocialmunky]

he's depicted in biblical prophecy as an one horned ram that fights a two horned ram and wins. But upon winning the one horn breaks into four to represent Greek Succession over Media and Persia but the subsequent divisions of the Diadochi(sp?).

[Macilrille]

Hmmm... I am sorry to say so, but I am not convinced about the case for Cyrene, though they did basically "do a Pergamon" that is as much a case against them...

Syracouse, Massilia, Celtiberians, Numidia, Pergamon, Cimbri, Marcomanni and Boii, possibly Mauretania as well, but not Cyrene IMO. I am sorry, I am unconvinced.

[Marcus Ulpius]

If EB II had an unlimited number of factions, I'd support Kyrene. But this is not the case, so despite very well prepared case we have:

another Hellenistic faction (probably nearly exact clone of the Ptolies), faction that is stuck between 2 giants that will certainly crush it if it's not in human hands. Faction without natural expansion area - it's logical victory conditions would be destroying the Ptolies, everything else would seem highly unlikely.

So, if EB team has some free faction slots, then why not. If it's not the case, then I think other factions deserve that slot more. I'd vote for Mauretanians, Syracuse, another Iberian faction, another Central European faction and another Steppe faction.

[Bucefalo]

Well on the bright side, Kyrene would need not many new units, therefore saving unit slots for other factions :beam:

[Meneldil]

Though the idea of a faction between Carthage and the Ptolemies is in theory cool, I'm afraid it would only be a clone of the later.

[Phalanx300]

It would be a mix between Koinen Hellenon and Ptolemies regarding units, also the position and gameplay would be unique.

They pulled a Pergamon, but all Helenic factions have similar units, then we might as well not adopt Pergamon and the new occultus Hellenic faction (which as fare as we know might be a city state), no reason to not include a new one.

[antisocialmunky]

They'd play like Epeiros with a good Greek Core with good light infantry.

[eddy_purpus]

It would be a mix between Koinen Hellenon and Ptolemies regarding units, also the position and gameplay would be unique.

They pulled a Pergamon, but all Helenic factions have similar units, then we might as well not adopt Pergamon and the new occultus Hellenic faction (which as fare as we know might be a city state), no reason to not include a new one.

Its the Bosphorran Kingdom .....
:P
Its a greek colony in the stteppes
"runs and hides from historians who would spank my ass if they saw my comments " " and eb members too hahahahaha suxers!"

[antisocialmunky]

Its funny how 1/2 the faction requests go like "They are Greek... BUT are at X!"

[Alsatia]

True. Those Greeks are all over the East Medditeranean. There should be some balance at least between hellenic and other factions. Otherwise probably 50% factons are hellenic!

Kyrene would be ineresting, but it is like a pebble between two stones. Unless there are some huge stacks at start, which is seemimgly impossible, they will get crushed. I prefer a faction to join Sab'yn in the Arabian Peninsula.

[Meneldil]

Armenia and Pontus don't necessarily get crushed in every game. I'd go as far as saying that they do surprisingly well.

[bobbin]

The argument that Kyrene would get crushed between two big factions has one flaw: EBII is on kingdoms so we don't really know how it will play, sure in RTW a Kyrene faction would probably get conquered pretty quick but in M2TW/Kingdoms small factions are a lot more resiliant and wars of extermination a lot less common.

That said I'm still not really in favor of them.

ps: where has this notion that there is a Hellenic occultus faction come from? All I've seen is an occultus skin for the thureophoroi in one of the preveiws, that doesn't necessarily mean that its a Hellenic faction, everyone gets thureophoroi.

[abou]

Guys, Hellenic ≠ Hellenistic.

[PraetorFigus]

Something funny for the province that works in the faction's favor is the impenetrable forest for kyrene! :inquisitive:

I mean that bug that has been posted before where the rams and possibly other seige equipment are trapped by the forest around the city making it harder to take the city

at least if that bug (feature?) is transferred to the new engine :laugh4:

(figus runs and hides):damnmate:

[a completely inoffensive name]

The more small factions the better. With a competent AI, I would just love waging a war with a united front of the little guys vs the silver and/or yellow death.

[Alsatia]

Small factions could be better... for me to unsuspectingly smash with a full stack!:beam:

[artaxerxes]

I must vote against Cyrene as well (not that I have a vote, so who cares?). Even a Hellenism-lover as me is getting uneasy around too many of them, and Cyrene is a very tight area. My own hope of a Syracusan faction is based on their - at the start of the campaign - better chances of growth and their arguable more historic importance. Aside from Syracuse and Bosporans and maybe Massilia, I'm running out of Hellenistic factions I could even dream of... and I though I could dream of so many:idea2:

[Phalanx300]

Sinope and Trapodous on the Pontic coast. Another succesor state at the black sea, Emporion in Iberia(though maybe it would be a part of Massilia).:sweatdrop:

Achean League and Aetolian league in Greece. In a far future version perhaps a split Koinen Hellenon.

[/Bean\]

I believe the map is going further east now, right? So an Indian faction or two would be great to see-completely unhellenic to a point.

I'd love to see another (or even a couple) or Iberian factions, so that the Luso's don't conquer the Western half of the map by 200BC if unchecked...

We need another Eastern European faction to stop Romans, Epirites and Getai expanding to the Baltic Sea by around the same time...God I hate that.

Another African faction would also be appreciated to stop Carthage ruling half of the Sahara...

Another German or sub-German state would be good to combat the rise of the Sweboz.

That ought to do it for non-Hellenic add-ons..Of course then we have the possibilities of Syracuse, Massila, the Bosphorious Kingdom, and so on. That, along with the existing factions plus Pergamon, would make for plenty of Hellenic factions, giving slight inner style variety without drowning the game in Hellenistic factions.

I wonder what culture Bartix would belong to...

[Ludens]

I believe the map is going further east now, right? So an Indian faction or two would be great to see-completely unhellenic to a point.

Nope. And I doubt the team would be including Indian factions unless the entire subcontinent would be included.

Also, there are more ways of balancing a faction than by dumping another one near them. Balancing another faction is very low on the list of arguments for faction inclusion.

[antisocialmunky]

I thought there was a possibility of a Western satrap or something mentioned a long friggin time ago.

[Ludens]

I thought there was a possibility of a Western satrap or something mentioned a long friggin time ago.

Yes, it was mentioned a couple of times by team members. I think it unlikely, though. They would have to sacrifice a culture slot. And I doubt that the Maurean Emperor would allow his subordinate to establish an Western Empire of his own.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

The map is only going further east by a couple tiles. After an increase to scale, there was a couple more tiles available for max size horizontally so they will probably be placed in India. It probably won't be a noticable difference, though.

[Alsatia]

The Indian side does almost nothing to most factions.

Enough of these hellenes, they're everywhere. I vote for decreased hellenism.