View Full Version : A question for our Serbian friends
Is it smart for Serbia to not be participating in the NATO war games being held in Georgia? What factors are influencing this and what do you think about it?
Sarmatian
05-06-2009, 12:43
There are several factors...
1) Events between March 24th and June 11th 1999
2) Parliament resolution which states that Serbia must maintain military neutrality.
3) Recognition of Kosovo by almost all NATO countries.
4) War games in Georgia are bound to make Russia angry and they are our most reliable ally at the moment and are supporting us strongly with everything regarding Kosovo. It's in Serbian interest to maintain best possible relations with Russia otherwise we would end up pretty much isolated.
Entire idea of war games in Georgia is bad. It's not gonna scare Russia, it will just piss her off. Also. volatile political situation doesn't help, with demonstrations and mutinies in Georgia...
When Serbia joins the EU, it will obviously become biased, militarily.
Sarmatian
05-06-2009, 21:11
I'm hoping it's a question of "if" rather than "when" but in any case, EU isn't a military alliance...
Kadagar_AV
05-06-2009, 22:46
I'm hoping it's a question of "if" rather than "when" but in any case, EU isn't a military alliance...
yes and no...
It has not been tested yet as no EU country has been attacked. But in reality I am rather sure the EU would react.
And don't forget the battle groups currently being assembled...
Furunculus
05-06-2009, 23:05
There are several factors...
1) Events between March 24th and June 11th 1999
2) Parliament resolution which states that Serbia must maintain military neutrality.
3) Recognition of Kosovo by almost all NATO countries.
4) War games in Georgia are bound to make Russia angry and they are our most reliable ally at the moment and are supporting us strongly with everything regarding Kosovo. It's in Serbian interest to maintain best possible relations with Russia otherwise we would end up pretty much isolated.
Entire idea of war games in Georgia is bad. It's not gonna scare Russia, it will just piss her off. Also. volatile political situation doesn't help, with demonstrations and mutinies in Georgia...
looking at it from serbia's perspective, i agree.
I'm hoping it's a question of "if" rather than "when" but in any case, EU isn't a military alliance...
You don't want Serbia to join the EU? :O
Furunculus
05-06-2009, 23:37
well the economic benefits are nice, but would you hang with your rapist because he slipped you a tenner every now and then?
well the economic benefits are nice, but would you hang with your rapist because he slipped you a tenner every now and then?
True, but the EU offers economic development along with breaking the diplomatic isolation Serbia suffered after the war. But I do understand the feeling.
Furunculus
05-07-2009, 00:10
^ has obviously never been raped before ^ *
* fatuous comment, as neither have I, but I do try to empathise............
^ has obviously never been raped before ^ *
* fatuous comment, as neither have I, but I do try to empathise............
So...Do you mean that Sarmatian was raped?
Or that the Europeans cunducted raping as a rule of engagement?
Sarmatian
05-07-2009, 00:39
You don't want Serbia to join the EU? :O
That's right, at least for the time being. A decade of humiliation and conditions and whenever one condition is fulfilled a new one is thought up. First it was Milosevic, then it was cooperation with Hague tribunal, in a sense extradite those you know where they are. After that it was Karadzic and Mladic. When Karadzic was arrested, it was no longer only Mladic, suddenly someone remembered Goran Hadzic and I bet no one outside, even most in Serbia, has ever heard of Goran Hadzic. So now it's Mladic and Hadzic. Like Sith Lords, always two there are.
Whenever Serbia makes a step, Brussels pulls the finish line two steps farther. When I want to visit any EU country, I'm being checked like I'm leaving an Ebola quarantine zone and not a country. I have to explain why would I want to visit that particular country, to prove that I'm either a student or working, that my parents have enough money, that I have a place to stay, to present the money that I'm going to spend, to sign a written statement that I won't prostitute myself, that my grandfather wasn't a transvestite, that there's no history of insanity in my family etc etc...
When I wanted to visit Italy a few years back, it took me two weeks just to gather all the paperwork and then I had to visit Italian embassy in Belgrade. There I met an elderly lady who wanted visa to visit her daughter who's married to an Italian and is living there. Her husband died, she didn't have anyone except her daughter's family in Italy. She had all the necessary paperwork, a letter of guarantee from her daughter and son-in-law that stated she is going to stay with them and whatnot. She was asked to present a 1000 euros that she's gonna spend there. Her pension was about 100 euros. Since they've known that, they've told here it's not enough just to bring proof that she's got 1000 euros on her bank account, because she could borrow money, put in the bank and withdraw it later - no, she had to bring cash to present and then they've written down the serial numbers of each and every bill because she had to present those same bills first thing when she landed in Italy... After seeing that I've left the embassy, trying my best not to use bad words out loud and decided not to visit Italy for the foreseeable future. There are other countries that won't mind my money.
I don't want to be where I'm not wanted, simple as that, and I don't see some great benefit of joining bureaucratic quagmire that is EU. Great enough to make me forget a very long time of continuous humiliations anyway. Cooperation, agreements, free trade etc... - that's fine with me, we don't have to be in EU to have that.
Also, in theory EU and NATO are two separate issues, in reality it doesn't work that way. They're very much connected and I wouldn't want to see Serbia in NATO under any circumstances...
Who know,s it might just be a case of good ol' Serbian inat, but that's how I feel...
True, but the EU offers economic development along with breaking the diplomatic isolation Serbia suffered after the war. But I do understand the feeling.
Bulgaria joined EU 1st January 2007, Serbia and Bulgaria are comparable in territory, population and GDP - Serbia had bigger GDP growth than Bulgaria in 2007.
That's right, at least for the time being. A decade of humiliation and conditions and whenever one condition is fulfilled a new one is thought up. First it was Milosevic, then it was cooperation with Hague tribunal, in a sense extradite those you know where they are. After that it was Karadzic and Mladic. When Karadzic was arrested, it was no longer only Mladic, suddenly someone remembered Goran Hadzic and I bet no one outside, even most in Serbia, has ever heard of Goran Hadzic. So now it's Mladic and Hadzic. Like Sith Lords, always two there are.
That last part made me chuckle for a while. I think the Kosovo question is quite up to the point. A month ago, I participated in a conference with our foreign minister (Who did recognize the independence of Kosovo 6 months into its de facto declaration), but pitifully, I failed to remember that. I should have liked to ask him how could he recognize the independence of a break-away state, outside of the UN regulations by which Portugal commits itself to, without the approval of the U.N. Security Council or the International Court of Justice. It weakens our international image as one who is obliged to follow what the big dogs do, regardless of legitimacy.
Whenever Serbia makes a step, Brussels pulls the finish line two steps farther. When I want to visit any EU country, I'm being checked like I'm leaving an Ebola quarantine zone and not a country. I have to explain why would I want to visit that particular country, to prove that I'm either a student or working, that my parents have enough money, that I have a place to stay, to present the money that I'm going to spend, to sign a written statement that I won't prostitute myself, that my grandfather wasn't a transvestite, that there's no history of insanity in my family etc etc...
When I wanted to visit Italy a few years back, it took me two weeks just to gather all the paperwork and then I had to visit Italian embassy in Belgrade. There I met an elderly lady who wanted visa to visit her daughter who's married to an Italian and is living there. Her husband died, she didn't have anyone except her daughter's family in Italy. She had all the necessary paperwork, a letter of guarantee from her daughter and son-in-law that stated she is going to stay with them and whatnot. She was asked to present a 1000 euros that she's gonna spend there. Her pension was about 100 euros. Since they've known that, they've told here it's not enough just to bring proof that she's got 1000 euros on her bank account, because she could borrow money, put in the bank and withdraw it later - no, she had to bring cash to present and then they've written down the serial numbers of each and every bill because she had to present those same bills first thing when she landed in Italy... After seeing that I've left the embassy, trying my best not to use bad words out loud and decided not to visit Italy for the foreseeable future. There are other countries that won't mind my money.
That's terrible! Although, I have no idea how international travel is supposed to work, that is really depressing. I suppose trying to visit non-EU countries, the control is more lax?
I don't want to be where I'm not wanted, simple as that, and I don't see some great benefit of joining bureaucratic quagmire that is EU. Great enough to make me forget the a very long time of continuous humiliations. Cooperation, agreements, free trade etc... - that's fine with me, we don't have to be in EU to have that.
Fair enough, though being a part of the EU means your country gets a lot of income influx in subsidies and other incentives which boosts any economy that is being developed. The surplus of cash can be invested in infrastructures, for example, which can improve the overall competitiveness of an economy.
Also, in theory EU and NATO are two separate issues, in reality it doesn't work that way. They're very much connected and I wouldn't want to see Serbia in NATO under any circumstances...
Who knows it might just be a case of good ol' Serbian inat, but that's how I feel...
They are closely connected but they aren't the same thing. And hopefully EU can make itself more militarily united (Single chain of command for EU armies, for instance) and less dependent on NATO.
Bulgaria joined EU 1st January 2007, Serbia and Bulgaria are comparable in territory, population and GDP - Serbia had bigger GDP growth than Bulgaria in 2007.
Giving an example of a country on its entry year is hardly a viable example as the economy still isn't feeling the full benefits of the subsidies and is still adapting to the single market. The difference in GDP growth between Serbia and Bulgaria is roughly the same in 2007 and 2008, only that the positions inverted in 2008, since Bulgaria grew more. Crisis apart, I would expect the GDP growth distance between both countries to distance for Bulgaria.
Kadagar_AV
05-07-2009, 02:11
"When I want to visit any EU country, I'm being checked like I'm leaving an Ebola quarantine zone and not a country. I have to explain why would I want to visit that particular country, to prove that I'm either a student or working, that my parents have enough money, that I have a place to stay, to present the money that I'm going to spend, to sign a written statement that I won't prostitute myself, that my grandfather wasn't a transvestite, that there's no history of insanity in my family etc etc... "
Look at it from the other perspective...
1. My spotter now has one leg because he stepped on a mine.
2. Yes you have to prove that you are a student or a worker to be able to get in. Why? Because we have had enough of *flower* idiots who thinks the wellfare system is for anyone.
3.
She was asked to present a 1000 euros that she's gonna spend there. Her pension was about 100 euros. Since they've known that, they've told here it's not enough just to bring proof that she's got 1000 euros on her bank account, because she could borrow money, put in the bank and withdraw it later - no, she had to bring cash to present and then they've written down the serial numbers of each and every bill because she had to present those same bills first thing when she landed in Italy... After seeing that I've left the embassy, trying my best not to use bad words out loud and decided not to visit Italy for the foreseeable future. There are other countries that won't mind my money.
Again, see it from the other perspective once in a while. Every DAY we have to send ~69 people back as they are homeless and living of the street.
So, is it really "evil" to expect some proof you can afford your own living before entering the county?
IF her pension was 100€, them maybe you shoud look at your own country to find the fault?
100€ is what I get in tip (TIP!!!!!) a good night. If that is what someone have to live from in a month... Then I pity them. You cant make a human living in a civilized european country from 100€ a month, ever.
Don't get me wrong, I find it a tragedy that someone has to live like that.
But then again, it seems to be a national problem, not an internatonal one.
IF her pension was 100€, them maybe you shoud look at your own country to find the fault?
Her pension might be adequate for Serbia, people should look into each case differently.
100€ is what I get in tip (TIP!!!!!) a good night. If that is what someone have to live from in a month... Then I pity them. You cant make a human living in a civilized european country from 100€ a month, ever.
First, that's because you are a ski instructor of a wealthy station somewhere in the Alps. 100€ tips is abhorrent even to me.
Second, they probably can live well enough in their own country with 100€ per month as the standards of living aren't the same. While you would have to pay 5.000.000€ for a mansion in Swissland, probably you can get exactly the same mansion in Serbia for 500.000€.
Third, are you saying that Serbia isn't a civilized european country?
Don't get me wrong, I find it a tragedy that someone has to live like that.
But then again, it seems to be a national problem, not an internatonal one.
People were too heartless on her case. With all due respect, I view with much more respect and admiration (similarity with us Europeans from EU) Serbians, than Albanians, Morrocans, Ukrainians, Turkish or other Far Eastern European and African peoples. The way I see it Serbians should be treated much more friendlier in terms of immigration and international travelling than Morrocans or Russians or South Americans, etc.
That's right, at least for the time being. A decade of humiliation and conditions and whenever one condition is fulfilled a new one is thought up. First it was Milosevic, then it was cooperation with Hague tribunal, in a sense extradite those you know where they are. After that it was Karadzic and Mladic. When Karadzic was arrested, it was no longer only Mladic, suddenly someone remembered Goran Hadzic and I bet no one outside, even most in Serbia, has ever heard of Goran Hadzic. So now it's Mladic and Hadzic. Like Sith Lords, always two there are.
Whenever Serbia makes a step, Brussels pulls the finish line two steps farther. When I want to visit any EU country, I'm being checked like I'm leaving an Ebola quarantine zone and not a country. I have to explain why would I want to visit that particular country, to prove that I'm either a student or working, that my parents have enough money, that I have a place to stay, to present the money that I'm going to spend, to sign a written statement that I won't prostitute myself, that my grandfather wasn't a transvestite, that there's no history of insanity in my family etc etc...
When I wanted to visit Italy a few years back, it took me two weeks just to gather all the paperwork and then I had to visit Italian embassy in Belgrade. There I met an elderly lady who wanted visa to visit her daughter who's married to an Italian and is living there. Her husband died, she didn't have anyone except her daughter's family in Italy. She had all the necessary paperwork, a letter of guarantee from her daughter and son-in-law that stated she is going to stay with them and whatnot. She was asked to present a 1000 euros that she's gonna spend there. Her pension was about 100 euros. Since they've known that, they've told here it's not enough just to bring proof that she's got 1000 euros on her bank account, because she could borrow money, put in the bank and withdraw it later - no, she had to bring cash to present and then they've written down the serial numbers of each and every bill because she had to present those same bills first thing when she landed in Italy... After seeing that I've left the embassy, trying my best not to use bad words out loud and decided not to visit Italy for the foreseeable future. There are other countries that won't mind my money.
I don't want to be where I'm not wanted, simple as that, and I don't see some great benefit of joining bureaucratic quagmire that is EU. Great enough to make me forget a very long time of continuous humiliations anyway. Cooperation, agreements, free trade etc... - that's fine with me, we don't have to be in EU to have that.
Also, in theory EU and NATO are two separate issues, in reality it doesn't work that way. They're very much connected and I wouldn't want to see Serbia in NATO under any circumstances...
Who know,s it might just be a case of good ol' Serbian inat, but that's how I feel...
Bulgaria joined EU 1st January 2007, Serbia and Bulgaria are comparable in territory, population and GDP - Serbia had bigger GDP growth than Bulgaria in 2007.
Sarmatian, I think your feelings are very reasonable, but let me point two things out. When I went to Serbia just for a WEEK and they saw that I had an American passport, I got bombarded by questions and had my luggage searched. No one else was put through that. Both sides are suspicious of each other. While that does not reflect on their seperate situations, it does show that travel is hard for the both of us. :P Unfortunately, I cannot argue your feelings at all, as they are very well justified, BUT, the tension will never melt until the two sides reconcile, and in this polar world, you gotta be on one side or the other ultimately. Personally, nothing would make me happy than to see the West reconcile with Serbia. (though I would prefer if it were the West that made the first moves) For several economic reasons, I agree that it would be better to stay out of the EU, but I think it would be good for Serbia to join NATO. If it did, economic ties with the west could then be developed and tensions could melt. It would also greatly strengthen Serbia's position. I don't mean to sound naive by saying that, but I would really like to see the west start treating Serbia better, and that is the only way that it will happen I am afraid.
Furunculus
05-07-2009, 12:53
That's right, at least for the time being. A decade of humiliation and conditions and whenever one condition is fulfilled a new one is thought up. First it was Milosevic, then it was cooperation with Hague tribunal, in a sense extradite those you know where they are. After that it was Karadzic and Mladic. When Karadzic was arrested, it was no longer only Mladic, suddenly someone remembered Goran Hadzic and I bet no one outside, even most in Serbia, has ever heard of Goran Hadzic. So now it's Mladic and Hadzic. Like Sith Lords, always two there are...........
serbia has been treated very shabbily.
speaking as a NATO fanboi i am ashamed that they acted in so partisan a manner.
speaking as a critic of the EU i expect no better, but again am ashamed that the conduct of the UK within the EU decision making process was so thoughtless.
.......hopefully EU can make itself more militarily united (Single chain of command for EU armies, for instance) and less dependent on NATO.
dear god i hope not!
dear god i hope not!
Seconded. It is bad enough with its economic power. It should be a darned trade union and nothing else.
Sarmatian
05-07-2009, 13:27
Look at it from the other perspective...
1. My spotter now has one leg because he stepped on a mine.
2. Yes you have to prove that you are a student or a worker to be able to get in. Why? Because we have had enough of *flower* idiots who thinks the wellfare system is for anyone.
3. Again, see it from the other perspective once in a while. Every DAY we have to send ~69 people back as they are homeless and living of the street.
So, is it really "evil" to expect some proof you can afford your own living before entering the county?
I'm sorry for your spotter but what has that got to do with me or that old lady traveling to Italy? Ironically enough, Bulgaria and Romania have a similar, maybe even slightly worse standard of living if you discount Kosovo and they are EU members. People from Albania, Bosnia, Macedonia don't have to go through all that and there GDP per capita is significantly lower. Obviously, it's not a matter of principle.
IF her pension was 100€, them maybe you shoud look at your own country to find the fault?
I'm and I did. I did my part as a citizen, demonstrating for years and actively doing my best to get things right. I believed when the West said it was all about Milosevic, Bosnia, Kosovo... I believed when they said they're gonna help us rebuild and welcome us. Unfortunately, neither happened.
But I also have to look elsewhere, on the countries who imposed sanctions and dropped bombs, destroyed power plants, bridges, roads, factories, refineries, tv stations...
100€ is what I get in tip (TIP!!!!!) a good night. If that is what someone have to live from in a month... Then I pity them. You cant make a human living in a civilized european country from 100€ a month, ever.
That's precisely the point, she can't. That's why she wanted to go to live with her daughter, son-in-law and her grandchildren.
Don't get me wrong, I find it a tragedy that someone has to live like that.
But then again, it seems to be a national problem, not an internatonal one.
Could be, although I wouldn't be exclusive either way...
That last part made me chuckle for a while. I think the Kosovo question is quite up to the point. A month ago, I participated in a conference with our foreign minister (Who did recognize the independence of Kosovo 6 months into its de facto declaration), but pitifully, I failed to remember that. I should have liked to ask him how could he recognize the independence of a break-away state, outside of the UN regulations by which Portugal commits itself to, without the approval of the U.N. Security Council or the International Court of Justice. It weakens our international image as one who is obliged to follow what the big dogs do, regardless of legitimacy.
You should have, the answer would have been interesting, most probably.
That's terrible! Although, I have no idea how international travel is supposed to work, that is really depressing. I suppose trying to visit non-EU countries, the control is more lax?
It's not like that in all EU countries, some have at least tried to make it simpler, like Greece or Czech Republic. I know that Italy and Spain were the worst couple of years ago. Non-EU countries generally don't ask for a visa or you get one on the border as a stamp and you pay some administrative tax 10-30$.
Fair enough, though being a part of the EU means your country gets a lot of income influx in subsidies and other incentives which boosts any economy that is being developed. The surplus of cash can be invested in infrastructures, for example, which can improve the overall competitiveness of an economy.
True but I'm not so sure the general effect would have been positive. I'm not an economic expert, I can't really say either way.
They are closely connected but they aren't the same thing. And hopefully EU can make itself more militarily united (Single chain of command for EU armies, for instance) and less dependent on NATO.
I don't see that happening for a very long time. Even more federalized political union is resisted, joint military would be even harder to push through. Just ask our English friends here...
Giving an example of a country on its entry year is hardly a viable example as the economy still isn't feeling the full benefits of the subsidies and is still adapting to the single market. The difference in GDP growth between Serbia and Bulgaria is roughly the same in 2007 and 2008, only that the positions inverted in 2008, since Bulgaria grew more. Crisis apart, I would expect the GDP growth distance between both countries to distance for Bulgaria.
True, but 2008 isn't a good year for comparison even without the crisis. In 2008, Kosovo declared independence, there war a political crisis, government resigned, elections, it took a very long time to constitute a new government. It all affected economy, naturally.
Sarmatian, I think your feelings are very reasonable, but let me point two things out. When I went to Serbia just for a WEEK and they saw that I had an American passport, I got bombarded by questions and had my luggage searched. No one else was put through that. Both sides are suspicious of each other. While that does not reflect on their seperate situations, it does show that travel is hard for the both of us. :P Unfortunately, I cannot argue your feelings at all, as they are very well justified, BUT, the tension will never melt until the two sides reconcile, and in this polar world, you gotta be on one side or the other ultimately. Personally, nothing would make me happy than to see the West reconcile with Serbia. (though I would prefer if it were the West that made the first moves) For several economic reasons, I agree that it would be better to stay out of the EU, but I think it would be good for Serbia to join NATO. If it did, economic ties with the west could then be developed and tensions could melt. It would also greatly strengthen Serbia's position. I don't mean to sound naive by saying that, but I would really like to see the west start treating Serbia better, and that is the only way that it will happen I am afraid.
I think Western (US-EU-NATO) policies towards Serbia have been totally wrong in the past two decades, but especially from 2000 onward. In 2000, Milosevic lost the election, there was a general euphoria and majority of people supported pro-western ideas. 80%+ of the people supported EU integrations. NATO was naturally seen a bit worse, but we could have swallowed it. Couple of years of support, less pressure from the Hague, we could have already been NATO members by now, or in the process of joining. That would make NATO presence on Kosovo tolerable, heck, NATO could have posted a couple of hundred Serbian soldiers within NATO contingent there, just for show. Kosovo gets a big autonomy but de jure remains a part of Serbia, NATO/US gets a base there with Serbian approval and everyone's happy. Why the hard approach was chosen I don't understand...
I think Western (US-EU-NATO) policies towards Serbia have been totally wrong in the past two decades, but especially from 2000 onward. In 2000, Milosevic lost the election, there was a general euphoria and majority of people supported pro-western ideas. 80%+ of the people supported EU integrations. NATO was naturally seen a bit worse, but we could have swallowed it. Couple of years of support, less pressure from the Hague, we could have already been NATO members by now, or in the process of joining. That would make NATO presence on Kosovo tolerable, heck, NATO could have posted a couple of hundred Serbian soldiers within NATO contingent there, just for show. Kosovo gets a big autonomy but de jure remains a part of Serbia, NATO/US gets a base there with Serbian approval and everyone's happy. Why the hard approach was chosen I don't understand...
I got my ideas...
Anyway though, you are right, the West has :daisy: Serbia over a lot recently, which is one of the reasons I said I wish that the West would make the first move and not expect Serbia to after the way they treated them. I think that joining NATO and then the economic ties that could develop after that would greatly help Serbia in the long run though. It seems like a distant hope, but I think it would be an excellent thing for Serbia to join NATO. I am gonna keep my fingers crossed, but not bet too much on it in the meantime. :P
True but I'm not so sure the general effect would have been positive. I'm not an economic expert, I can't really say either way.
All you need to do is look at our example and not do anything we did. That way, it's certain your economy will improve. :P
I don't see that happening for a very long time. Even more federalized political union is resisted, joint military would be even harder to push through. Just ask our English friends here...
That's why I'm a top supporter of booting the UK off the EU. Either they play by the rules everyone plays, or they get the kick.
True, but 2008 isn't a good year for comparison even without the crisis. In 2008, Kosovo declared independence, there war a political crisis, government resigned, elections, it took a very long time to constitute a new government. It all affected economy, naturally.
We'll be on the lookout for 2009 then. Though this year is more about damage control than anything else.
I think Western (US-EU-NATO) policies towards Serbia have been totally wrong in the past two decades, but especially from 2000 onward. In 2000, Milosevic lost the election, there was a general euphoria and majority of people supported pro-western ideas. 80%+ of the people supported EU integrations. NATO was naturally seen a bit worse, but we could have swallowed it. Couple of years of support, less pressure from the Hague, we could have already been NATO members by now, or in the process of joining. That would make NATO presence on Kosovo tolerable, heck, NATO could have posted a couple of hundred Serbian soldiers within NATO contingent there, just for show. Kosovo gets a big autonomy but de jure remains a part of Serbia, NATO/US gets a base there with Serbian approval and everyone's happy. Why the hard approach was chosen I don't understand...
Bush comes to mind as a plausible answer and variant.
Tribesman
05-07-2009, 16:29
Is it smart for NATO to be doing the exercise in Georgia while Georgia still has a complete idiot in power ?
Furunculus
05-07-2009, 16:31
isn't that a bit off-topic?
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