View Full Version : A question about Carthage
I've read that Carthage had a practice to forbid subject cities from building walls, especially in Africa.
Is that accurate?
If so, would it be proper to disable or limit the building of walls in african settlements for Carthage?
Thanks for your answers!
Roleplay it...just don't build walls.
Well, I'm considering it from a modding side rather than a player's one.
In XGM-XC we're trying to represent each culture's aspect more in depth and this could be one of the unique sides of Carthage
soup_alex
05-07-2009, 01:32
In this case, the simplest solution is unfortunately not the right one. Well, it works beautifully if the human player is controlling SSbQ, but how to stop the pesky AI?
Would it be possible to edit faction build trees and prohibit construction of walls and upgrades in provinces that don't include a type I (or II) gov't "building"?
As to the historical veracity of this practice (walls being restricted, not modding RTW/EB :P), I can't comment, but would like to hear more about it.
Well, that wouldn't be a problem to do... It's just the historical accuracy that gives me doubts
Jebivjetar
05-07-2009, 12:10
Carthage, situated in Africa on the southern shore of the Mediterranean about midway between its two extremes, grew rapidly in wealth and fame. As the cities of native Phoenicia crumbled beneath the repeated assaults of Assyrians, Babylonians, and Greeks, Carthage, secure in her distance and solitude, rose to be the chief trading-city of the world. By deg, though the details are lost to us, she became mistress of all north Africa west of Egypt. The other Phoenician colonies became her subjects; their walls were torn down and they were made incapable of resistance. The merchant princes of Carthage were as cruel, as merciless, as they were powerful. Their fields were tilled by slaves in chains, sometimes one merchant held twenty thousand of the joyless wretches in this miserable bondage.
From:
http://www.publicbookshelf.com/public_html/The_Story_of_the_Greatest_Nations_and_the_Worlds_Famous_Events_Vol_1/historya_ji.html
Maybe this will help :-/
that's what I read more or less... What I'm asking is how accurate is that
Jebivjetar
05-07-2009, 12:19
that's what I read more or less... What I'm asking is how accurate is that
http://www.publicbookshelf.com/public_html/images/greatest_nations_vol1.gif
Well, i would say it is pretty accurate, because this article is written by scholars :yes:
Krusader
05-07-2009, 12:47
http://www.publicbookshelf.com/public_html/images/greatest_nations_vol1.gif
Well, i would say it is pretty accurate, because this article is written by scholars :yes:
Generally yes, but its 1913 where more obscure cultures and factions were being researched upon, as Carthage, Baktria, Indo-Greeks etc.
Then you do have scholars who say ancient Greeks were blacks and Parthians were Jewish :inquisitive:
But in this case, I do think its accurate enough, but if we will represent it in EB2, not sure.
Interesting... that could give XGM-XC some uniqueness... Thanks Krusader!
Jebivjetar
05-07-2009, 14:32
Yes, thanks, Krusader. :clown:
Hmm, not sure about that. The Phoenician cities in Sicily and Iberia kept their walls for sure. Utica kept its wall for sure. The Carthaginians had a series of border forts along their borders in interior Africa. Not having walls doesn't seem logical for them.
My idea was to allow wooden walls everywhere but to take out stone walls from towns outside Carthage in Africa... would that be a better implementation?
It sounds more like a propaganda piece really, so I too am sceptical. And even if it was true, there most likely would have been exceptions if the Carthaginians felt they needed to defend their new subjects against other enemies. Destroyed cities don't bring in money, after all.
Hmm, representing the thalassocratic aspects is proving harder than I thought then...
What you could do is have the level of wall reliant upon the level of barracks as well. Logically the more military focus is placed upon a region, the more a need for defensive architecture arises. In the same way the best way to discourage military uprising if your military is also limited in the region is to deny the local populace the construction of such architecture. Just a thought.
That's a pretty smart idea Tanit, do you think it could be generalized faction-wide or just for african settlements?
Could probably be generalized.
Atraphoenix
05-13-2009, 10:06
but that means SSBQ is an easy prey for others.... AI has no respect for history sorry pal...
think about Sparta they boasted having no walls do we need to lock sparta building walls?
I'm not requesting this feature for EB but as historical question for my own modding purposes, after all implementation is a matter of taste...
think about Sparta they boasted having no walls do we need to lock sparta building walls?
I am pretty sure they either had walls at the start of EB's time frame, or would acquire them shortly after. Sparta wasn't the power it used to be, after all.
Atraphoenix
05-13-2009, 14:45
I'm not requesting this feature for EB but as historical question for my own modding purposes, after all implementation is a matter of taste...
I have more mods than 5 for EB but just released 3 of them...
modding is fun and of course if you know how to mod. Even I had a script for 12 turn per year but it would take more than 8k turn so I found it is not so much necassary :dizzy2:
if you know how to handle and mod EDB it is easy to mod it the hard one modelling, campaign map modding etc if you are not a genius of photoshop..
Well, I'm not gonna mod EB but another project, XGM-XC.
Atraphoenix
05-13-2009, 14:56
just a curiosity, were Diadochi Totar War creators once in XGM team, they have lots of similarities.
Both mods' campaign map nearly same....
Yes, DTW started as XGM Diadochii, there are still some traces of its origin (from 3.x times) but it's pretty much almost a completely new ptoject...
XGM-XC is based off XGM 5.x but it's starting to split up as in independent project.
Right now I'm taking care of historical accuracy (although not on EB level) and BI/senate features development and that's why I pop here asking weird questions around...
Atraphoenix
05-13-2009, 15:33
You made me remind my first days as an independent submodder. I was doing exactly the same you do now. :beam:
P.S. I should be the first one to congratulate, you hit 1.000.
Only I'm doing this as full team member over there.
Only DimeBagHo (of course as founder) can claim to have spent more time working on the XGM series than me...
Atraphoenix
05-13-2009, 15:45
I am happy to stay as an independent submodder, I am sure I cannot make a better mod then the ones in presence. But I am happy that people still make the RTW Mods alive with their releases. 6-8 years ? passed since RTW released. I was in the first year in the Univ. When I become an addict to this game.
I hope CA will see this and make a R2TW or a patch for fans to improve the mods.
but I must confess that I lost my belief in miracles....
Well, nothing forbids you to join a smaller mod and imprint your creative spin on it... That's what I did with BI-XGM years ago and what I'm still doing with BI/Senate for XC now...
My biggest hope is to have an unified BI/ALX patch, would be great...
Atraphoenix
05-13-2009, 15:56
As you can see in my sig. I had made enough of them already. Most submodders like me waits for EB2 to (sub)mod it :laugh4: .
I will make a provincial camp. after my exam in July. I am under the pressure of real life issues at the moment.
soup_alex
05-13-2009, 16:44
Carthage, situated in Africa on the southern shore of the Mediterranean about midway between its two extremes, grew rapidly in wealth and fame. As the cities of native Phoenicia crumbled beneath the repeated assaults of Assyrians, Babylonians, and Greeks, Carthage, secure in her distance and solitude, rose to be the chief trading-city of the world. By deg, though the details are lost to us, she became mistress of all north Africa west of Egypt. The other Phoenician colonies became her subjects; their walls were torn down and they were made incapable of resistance. The merchant princes of Carthage were as cruel, as merciless, as they were powerful. Their fields were tilled by slaves in chains, sometimes one merchant held twenty thousand of the joyless wretches in this miserable bondage.
From:
http://www.publicbookshelf.com/public_html/The_Story_of_the_Greatest_Nations_and_the_Worlds_Famous_Events_Vol_1/historya_ji.html
Maybe this will help :-/
Thanks for posting this, Jebivjetar; I somehow missed it before :S
I agree with Ludens, it sounds a wee bit "propagandist"; the bias is so thick you can almost taste it. Also, the italicised clause need not suggest that, as has been queried, Qart-Hadast denied her neighbours permanent defences—it can be taken to be a fruity sort of way of saying: "Carthage ferociously seized upon the other Phoenician colonies".
Well, it's also true that many phoenician colonies weren't exactly hardcore loyalists of the carthaginian, the mercenary war shows many examples of cities not mobilizing against the rebellion and basically waiting to see who would get the upper hand... That costed them Sardina as the mercenaries were able to exploit this to call Rome's help against the nuragic tribes.
Macilrille
05-13-2009, 17:39
I have only one thing to say, Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam!!!
May Baal have mercy of you when you will meet the elephants...
soup_alex
05-14-2009, 04:44
I have only one thing to say, Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam!!!
The thing I love most about this is that Cato essentially developed a Classical equivalent of saying "Also: c*cks".
Jebivjetar
05-14-2009, 10:33
I have only one thing to say, Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam!!!
Read my sig for answer :clown:
Well, if you want to try a completely different Carthage experience try this: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=235134
You will feel what it was like to have a demanding senate... Even though less annoying than the vanilla one!
Jebivjetar
05-14-2009, 10:58
i did try ext. greek mod about year ago, and it was good. But i've quit and uninstall due to some bug when in random year my faction (greek cities), for some unknown reason, was destroyed.... i dont know what causes that, but after few attempts i understand it got something to do with program itself...
That must have been some beta, XGM is more stable than ever right now...
XC is becoming an independent project BTW, best enjoyed with BI...
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