View Full Version : Question for martial arts enthusiasts
I was having a conversation in Hungary with a group of martial artists yesterday about the clichéd self-defense topic of a woman on a date when a guy starts pushing himself on her and will not listen to her, and it becomes obvious to her that real rape is very probable. We were talking about the different ways in which she could react, and two of the things people kept saying which I think are not helpful are "oh, she just needs to hit him in the nuts" and "she has to slap him and tell him not to mess with her"
First of all, the latter. What happens when you slap someone? You infuriate them. The guy obviously has no respect for her already, and this (esp accompanied with a rebuke) would likely set him off at her full force. When it becomes impossible for you to voluntarily exit, you have to make yourself an opening, and slapping someone does not do that. Wouldn't it be better to incapacitate him?
Second of all, the first one. In a situation like that, when someone is fully ready to exploit your innocence and your humanity, you can and should do whatever you can to defend yourself, BUT, you should not do something that would endanger you further. Think of it, if a guy is raping a woman, and if he has ever seen a Hollywood film, that is the thing that he will be expecting and guarding. A woman's chance of getting a first strike there in that situation is almost non-existent. It almost NEVER works as a first strike in other situations, but in this one in particular it would be exceptionally well guarded against. A lot of guys would beat people near to death for trying to do that to them, if she does, she is only going to infuriate him to an extreme level and escalate things way beyond what they already were.
What I proposed as an alternative (which I have seen work in other (similar) situations) is a swift upward palm strike to the chin that would smash his head back (possibly breaking his jaw) and daze him. If he grabbed her hand before she could retract it her fingers would be right at his eyes. If needed a swift follow up strike to the throat could easily be performed. Hopefully the first strike would be all she needs though to run like heck and get out.
What are your opinions on it?
Ramses II CP
05-08-2009, 15:05
I think you've trapped yourself a bit unrealistically in the idea that the potential rapist an unrepentant bad guy. In reality the reason that a simple slap can work is that the guy might just be drunk, stupid, or otherwise unable to correctly interpret the situation and he just needs a 'wake up call' to get his head right. The best rape preventatives are all about staying ahead of the situation and not letting things get to the point where you have to strike someone. Once a woman gets to that point the typical size and strength differential is going to make a single disabling blow very difficult to pull off.
Let me be clear that I don't by any means intend to excuse rape no matter the circumstances, but fundamentally rape is most often a matter of misunderstanding and poor impulse control rather than an overt physical attack. In the case of a direct physical attack I don't think any single strike is going to be an effective deterrant; when someone is geared up for a fight they can keep going even if you manage to break their jaw.
Prostitutes have a particular trick when they feel like a situation is escalating out of control where they appear to give in and go digging in their purse for a condom, coming out with pepper spray or other defensive weapon of choice instead. They do it because it works a high percentage of the time. If I was going to recommend a course of action to someone at risk of rape this would be it, trust in a weapon you can practice with and which will be effective without regard to the size of the opponent.
I've seen a kick in the nuts work, by the way, though it was delivered by a buddy rather than a girl. A friend of mine was extremely drunk and grabbed a girl by the hair to stop her from leaving. One shot to the balls later he was rolling on the ground and she was on her way. He owned up that it was the right thing to do the next morning, as he walked gingerly around his house. :laugh4:
:egypt:
I think you've trapped yourself a bit unrealistically in the idea that the potential rapist an unrepentant bad guy. In reality the reason that a simple slap can work is that the guy might just be drunk, stupid, or otherwise unable to correctly interpret the situation and he just needs a 'wake up call' to get his head right. The best rape preventatives are all about staying ahead of the situation and not letting things get to the point where you have to strike someone. Once a woman gets to that point the typical size and strength differential is going to make a single disabling blow very difficult to pull off.
Let me be clear that I don't by any means intend to excuse rape no matter the circumstances, but fundamentally rape is most often a matter of misunderstanding and poor impulse control rather than an overt physical attack. In the case of a direct physical attack I don't think any single strike is going to be an effective deterrant; when someone is geared up for a fight they can keep going even if you manage to break their jaw.
Prostitutes have a particular trick when they feel like a situation is escalating out of control where they appear to give in and go digging in their purse for a condom, coming out with pepper spray or other defensive weapon of choice instead. They do it because it works a high percentage of the time. If I was going to recommend a course of action to someone at risk of rape this would be it, trust in a weapon you can practice with and which will be effective without regard to the size of the opponent.
I've seen a kick in the nuts work, by the way, though it was delivered by a buddy rather than a girl. A friend of mine was extremely drunk and grabbed a girl by the hair to stop her from leaving. One shot to the balls later he was rolling on the ground and she was on her way. He owned up that it was the right thing to do the next morning, as he walked gingerly around his house. :laugh4:
:egypt:
Several things Rams. First of all, I stressed that I am talking about a case when rape is iminent or highly probable. At that point, it does not matter whether the guy is 'good' or 'bad' if he rapes her, because either way he rapes her. A person's 'heart' doesn't make them good or bad, it is their actions. If a guy has a great heart and rapes a woman blind drunk not knowing what he is doing, it does not help the woman one bit. She is still raped, and he is still a rapist. In such a situation what a person is inside is completely irrelevant and a human being (man or woman) has the right and the responsibility to themselves to use whatever they can to escape. It is the rapist who put himself and her into the situation, not the other way around. If he does not want someone to retaliate against his rape, then he can simply not try to defile someone.
I know that you are not trying to excuse rape, but I think it is important to stress that. As far as a 'slap' working, you have to remember, the rapist MAY come to his senses when he is sober, and MAYBE when he is drunk, but if not, then she just antagonized him and made things worse. That is not a risk a woman can take, no matter who the would be rapist is. I say this because my Taekwondo master is a counciller for victims of rape, and that is one of the things she says happens with a lot of rape victims. They were dating their rapist and trusted them, and gave them a slap to wack them out of it, and then got furious, subdued her, and raped her. If he is not letting you go, you gotta go whatever you can to get out as soon as possible, and not stop to see the results...just run.
You are right, they may keep going witha broken jaw, but if they do not let go instantly, she can take out his eyes and attack his throat with the same move. A palm-heel strike up along the chest to the chin is probably the easiest strike to get through in close quarters, and extremely effective. It may not stop him for good, but it sure as heck will daze him and send his head back. I know that there are other moves you could do as well, that was just an example. (and one very easy for women to pull off)
As for the kick to the nuts, it was not her who did it, it was a buddy. Did the buddy come from behind? Yeah, sure it works sometimes, but most times it does not, and it is not a risk worth taking when the consequence of it not working is being brutally raped. It can be effective as a follow up technique, but very rarely works at all otherwise.
AlexanderSextus
05-10-2009, 08:16
first you side kick the knee with your leading right leg, this intercepts the attacker's advance which stops him. It also helps that the length of the side kick effectively places you out of range of your opponents punches while his legs can still be easily hit.
once the low side kick connects, THEN you kick his balls into his throat...
first you side kick the knee with your leading right leg, this intercepts the attacker's advance which stops him. It also helps that the length of the side kick effectively places you out of range of your opponents punches while his legs can still be easily hit.
once the low side kick connects, THEN you kick his balls into his throat...
You are missing the point AS, as in a case such as I described, it is much more likely that both parties would be sitting. Also, from a technical standpoint, a kick to the knee would cause him to close up and his legs would come together very quickly and he would sink down, greatly lowering your chances of executing a successful strike to the groin. It would be much more effective to strike above his waist (preferably above the solar plexus) to get him to lean back a bit and draw his attention off his lower regions. Read up on a technique called the shadowless kick.
Cute Wolf
05-10-2009, 14:26
perhaps carry a mace (cudgel, club), made from solid iron in your bag will help greatly.... better than fight with bare hands... a real rapper will always carry some sort of weapons (a knife or gun)... will you (as a girl... hahaha) an be forced with just harsh words and fists.?
anyway, aim his head with anythng hard.... including bottle and glass...
If you want to rape a girl a kick in the groin is the least you deserve, and what better way to take someone out, should buy her enough time to escape.
If you want to rape a girl a kick in the groin is the least you deserve, and what better way to take someone out, should buy her enough time to escape.
I does not matter what someone deserves, you are not there to punish them, you are there to get out. If you waste time trying to punish them, you may end up not being able to get out. When someone is trying to rape you, you have the right to do whatever you can to them in order to escape, and I do not think that anyone was arguing that.
I does not matter what someone deserves, you are not there to punish them, you are there to get out.
Of course, and what's worse then a kick in the groin? Guy will probably pass out because of the pain.
Of course, and what's worse then a kick in the groin? Guy will probably pass out because of the pain.
My point was though that most times that is NOT the most effective way to get out. If a guy is trying to rape a girl, you can bet your behind that he is looking out for that. A girl's chances of getting that one through are almost non-existant in that situation. That is why I suggested a palm strike to the bottom of the chin. (esp since in the theorectical situation I was talking about, both of them were seated and very close to each other) A strik to the groin can be a good follow-up if it is needed, but rarely works as an initial attack. The consequences of it not working makes it (imo), not worth chancing.
Slapping back the chin will take out everyone if you know what you are doing, but the jaw-muscles need to be relaxed for it to work, if they are stressed it will not have any effect, or you have to be really strong. Nah, kick in the groin is the way to go.
Slapping back the chin will take out everyone if you know what you are doing, but the jaw-muscles need to be relaxed for it to work, if they are stressed it will not have any effect, or you have to be really strong. Nah, kick in the groin is the way to go.
No matter how strong someone's neck muscles are, even a small woman could smash their head back. It is enough to daze anyone, and at the least take their mind off defending their lower regions long enough for an attack. A very small woman can thrust up under someone's with quite a lot of force, and if she does it fast and leans in can knock them over. It is not a difficult technique to learn either. If it is not sufficient to get away, then it can open him up for a nice, fast snapped out kick or a knee to the groin.
The whole subject of rape feels a bit Backroomish to me ...
AlexanderSextus
05-11-2009, 01:11
a kick to the knee would cause him to close up and his legs would come together very quickly and he would sink down, greatly lowering your chances of executing a successful strike to the groin.
Not necessarily always... some guys will lean forward a bit in an attempt to absorb the kick with a backward shuffle. Usually their groin is wide open at that point. And besides, if they DO close up, another very good strike for a female to follow up with is a finger jab to the eyes, it will blind him and it is a very quick attack due to the fact that it uses shocking, flickering force rather than strength. At that point the guy is not concentrating on his groin because not only is the pain excruciating but he may very well think his eyeballs have been popped (which is actually quite possible if you put enough behind it).
People have a misconception that a female can't produce as much force as a bigger stronger guy can. This is not necessarily true, because if a female uses her structure and body weight properly she can hurt him.
Another good option is, immediately after she kicks the guy's knee, a short sidestep and pivot to the right (or left depending on which side he has forward) will put her in a position to drive a really nasty shovel hook to his kidney. IF this is done correctly it can rupture his kidney. It can be also thrown to the floating rib, which can possibly rupture his spleen if it is broken.
The side kick to the knee can end the fight if she dislocates his knee, also.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
05-11-2009, 01:30
Carry mace. The traditional version.
Kadagar_AV
05-11-2009, 02:11
1. Don't get in a SITUATION where you can get raped. Don't follow a guy home alone, dont walk around alone.
2. As mentioned, go dig for a condom and pull up a tazer or pepper spray. Girls are pretty much chanceless without.
3. Close your eyes and think happy thoughts.
Let's get two facts straight:
1. Very few girls can stand up to a man in close combat. If you are the the girl-version of Bruce Lee then go for it, otherwise don't.
2. If you succeede with your attack, a stab to the eye, kick in the groin or whatever, chances are you have just made him very very pissed off, and he might give you severe injuries or kill you.
I would never recommend a girl to try and fight as that might escalate the situation.
conversation in Hungary
wut
rotorgun
05-11-2009, 04:42
What our instructors try to teach our females is to use a passiveness initially to lull the perpetrator into over-confidence. A slap is generally used only to be the initial move to distract the opponent. A knife strike to the eyes or throat immediately must follow if they are close. This should be followed up with a knee or kick to the groin or knee. These can then be followed by further elbow strikes to the jaw or by palm strikes to the nose. Punching is only recommended for the soft parts of the body, such as the nose, solar plexus, or to break ribs. This requires training before hand, with constant repetition so that these become instinctual even when under duress. If a woman can at least partially disable the the assailant, she should retreat as fast as possible.
Many women also can use keys from there purse to deliver blows to the throat or eyes, a good use of the old "condom trick" mentioned by others. We also encourage them to carry mace or a small knife or gun if they can. They must be trained in the use of these though or it will likely be of little use. Training is the key.
I know of two ladies who were successful in deterring possible assailants. One used an often practiced high block to deflect an attempt to grab her, followed by a reverse punch to the nose. She then stepped forward and shoved the man back with both fists to create space, and delivered a jumping front kick to his chest which knocked him down. This allowed the bouncers time to take him in tow. The second lady warned her assailant that he was following too close. When he continued to advance, she whirled and executed a strong front kick just above his advancing knee. This collapsed the knee backwards and almost dislocated it. The man fell and she fled to find the security guards where she worked. As is evident by these anecdotes, it was the training that made the difference. Most guys tend to underestimate women as to their ability to defend themselves:belly:.
Right knee to balls, right heel to the back of their heel, with a good push. Once their on the ground stomp the kneecaps or ankles. Any realistic self defense has to remain simplistic.
Kadagar_AV
05-12-2009, 02:52
Again... Girls have 2 factors against them (generally).
1. physical weakness compared to the rapist.
2. girls are usually not prepared for a real fight.
Let's face it, we guys have been wrrestling around since kindergarten... males at least have SOME sence of self-defense.
Girl do not (again, their are of cousre examples of girls who can defend themselves, however, very few of these are attractive enough to call a rapists attention).
My brothers youngest daughters just had a 4 week self-defense training, in how to avoid getting raped. She was sooo filled with confidence that she could get out of any situation.
I then slapped her around a bit... She complained it was cheating because i knew martial arts.
Sure, I then had her brother assault her, she still didnt stand a chance.
So.... either carry something that makes out for your physical inabilities OR close your eyes and hope for the best.
Claims such as:
Right knee to balls, right heel to the back of their heel, with a good push. Once their on the ground stomp the kneecaps or ankles. Any realistic self defense has to remain simplistic. is just stupid.
<<< Oh? A knee to the balls? No man would EVER see THAT coming, huh? >>>
Big Tex, the question was directed to martial arts enthusiasts, removed by moderator
Ok, a few things I would like to comment on here. First of all, rotorgun, it is true that a woman can overwhelm a man's Li with her Ch'i, but then again a man can overwhelm her Ch'i with his Ch'i. While selfconfindence is important, it is also important to be realistic. A woman's best defense is surprise, speed, and attacking weak spots. She does not need to 'take him out', only have a chance to get away.
@ Kadagar_AV You should NEVER let yourself be raped, period. You should never stop struggling and you should never shut up. Sitting back and enduring it is NOT an acceptable answer. When you have no way out, go crazy. Nothing freaks someone out or draws attention like a lunatic. :P
The problem is that everyone has strengths and weaknesses, but someone with less strengths than someone else can still win if they play their strengths against an opponents weaknesses and the opponent fails to play their own strengths correctly. Women's selfdefense courses are stupid and ineffectual for very much the same reason I complained about above. They try to teach women "oh, you are powerful, you can do anything". While confidence is good, they also give women an unrealistic view of their own abilities and offer them "easy ways out" that just don't work most times irl. (think: quick kick to the balls) Women want to come out feeling powerful and like they now can deal with any situation, so they do that for them. Truth is that in a situation where you are being raped, there probably isn't going to be some magical "easy way out" for you, and you are going to have to do whatever the :daisy: works and not waste time trying to do what doesn't. You may end up not having a chance to practice any techniques you trained on, but you still should do SOMETHING. I agree with you that women (and indeed, everyone) SHOULD train to be able to defend themselves, as it is very important, however not having done so does not mean that you cannot defend yourself or that you do not have the duty to yourself to at least try. I'm a big fan of keeping everything simple and direct. It is what wins every fight I have ever seen. A woman should know a variety of strike and effective target areas, and then apply whatever she thinks is best and whatever would be the simplest, fastest, and most effective in her situation.
The problem with martial arts, or any systematic fighting style or form (@this is directed at you too Big Tex) is that irl someone isn't gonna be kind enough to follow your complicated system of attacks and counter-attacks, and they are not gonna just sit there on the ground and allow you to stomp their knee-caps Big Tex. You have a whole chain attack there, but there is one problem with it: what happens when a link is broken? Say your first knee to the balls doesn't work and he grabs you? Or say he recovers from it and you are unable to throw him? Attacks should be seperate entities and as simple and direct as possible. If you practice some magical never fail chain of attacks, and then you find yourself unable to get it off, what are you gonna do? You are gonna have no idea at all what to do. Change with your changing foe. Do what works best NOW, at the moment. Keep it fast, keep it simple, and get the heck out as soon as you can. That is my best advice to anyone who could find themselves in a situation like that.
EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I am not bashing chain attacks, just complicated systems of attack. You should attack fast and as many times in a given period of time as possible, but having long practiced attacks that could fail if one link is broken is impractical.
Kadagar_AV
05-12-2009, 05:38
VUK: In a rape there are 4 scenarios.
1. You get away.
2. You get raped.
3. You get raped and beaten/stabbed/wounded brutaly if you recist.
4. You get killed.
Don't get me wrong, if you are SURE you can pull option one off then that is the way to go.
However, if you are unsure option 2 sure seems a hell of a lot better than option 3 and 4.
You claim a woman should never shut up? Do you think it is better she gets beaten untill she shuts up?
You claim she should always recist, is it better that she gets beaten till a state where she can not?
Again, if you are not sure you can get away, or get help to come, you have 3 options. To get raped, raped and (brutaly) beaten, or killed.
AlexanderSextus
05-12-2009, 05:47
A woman should know a variety of strike and effective target areas, and then apply whatever she thinks is best and whatever would be the simplest, fastest, and most effective in her situation.
The problem with martial arts, or any systematic fighting style or form (@this is directed at you too Big Tex) is that irl someone isn't gonna be kind enough to follow your complicated system of attacks and counter-attacks, and they are not gonna just sit there on the ground and allow you to stomp their knee-caps Big Tex. You have a whole chain attack there, but there is one problem with it: what happens when a link is broken? Say your first knee to the balls doesn't work and he grabs you? Or say he recovers from it and you are unable to throw him? Attacks should be seperate entities and as simple and direct as possible. If you practice some magical never fail chain of attacks, and then you find yourself unable to get it off, what are you gonna do? You are gonna have no idea at all what to do. Change with your changing foe. Do what works best NOW, at the moment. Keep it fast, keep it simple, and get the heck out as soon as you can. That is my best advice to anyone who could find themselves in a situation like that.
QFT!!!!
Set patterns of attack do not work. The biggest things a woman can use to her advantage are broken rhythm, speed and timing, especially timing, because true power in a strike is from its timing. Speed is also important because it increases power exponentially (MxV^2 ), which can give a smaller woman knockout power. Broken rhythm can keep an assailant from being able to "read" the womans attacks.
Notice in my previous post that I explained the use of the low Side Kick; This kick is a powerful kick whether it is thrown as a thrust to break a leg or quickly with a snap because unless the guy's a freakin Muay Thai champion, it's GONNA hurt, especially with a womans boot or even heels, not to mention when you do that, it's the longest weapon, and your opponents leg is the closest target, which keeps him away from you while causing damage.
Kicking is a good attack method for women. Most women have very strong legs. A straight kick or hook kick to the groin is immediately disabling if you are accurate. A side kick or back kick to the shin or knee can also be damaging to the attacker's leg. Severe leg damage makes it extremely hard for them to get to you and gives you much more time for escape!
Other good targets for kicks are the sciatic nerve, the back of the knee, the side of the knee and the instep. If you have the flexibility, the solar plexus is a good target, especially for a side kick or a back kick. Kicks to the head look good in movies but for the street you are much better off keeping your kicks below the waist.
AlexanderSextus
05-12-2009, 05:53
the notion is that a guy will be thinking about protecting his bollocks while he leaves his knee and leg open...
VUK: In a rape there are 4 scenarios.
1. You get away.
2. You get raped.
3. You get raped and beaten/stabbed/wounded brutaly if you recist.
4. You get killed.
Don't get me wrong, if you are SURE you can pull option one off then that is the way to go.
However, if you are unsure option 2 sure seems a hell of a lot better than option 3 and 4.
You claim a woman should never shut up? Do you think it is better she gets beaten untill she shuts up?
You claim she should always recist, is it better that she gets beaten till a state where she can not?
Again, if you are not sure you can get away, or get help to come, you have 3 options. To get raped, raped and (brutaly) beaten, or killed.
What I was arguing about is where you said:
I would never recommend a girl to try and fight as that might escalate the situation.
The fact is that rapists are cowards and they do not want to take chances with people. A woman actually has a good chance of defending herself if she uses her brain. I was not recomending mindless struggling that would lead to further abuse. I was actually saying how stupid that was and instead suggesting using your brain and intelligently using simple, quick techniques to give yourself an opportunitty to escape. If you think it is better to sit back and be raped (and you know what? They may very well kill you when they are done anyway. In fact, there is a good chance of it) rather than do what you can to escape, then that is your personal choice. However, if a woman does NOT want to be raped and finds herself in that situation, she has a good chance of getting out of it if she uses her brain. Most rapists, as I said, are cowards, and they do not expect a woman to be able to put up a good defense, which is why she would take him by surprise when she did. Rapists are cowardly sack of :daisy: who delibrately choose victims that they know will not be able to defend themselves or will not have the will to. If you try to escape there can be two options: 1. You get away. 2. You get raped and anything that accompanies it. If you do not, then one thing is gonna happen: You will get raped and anything that occompanies that. Rapists often kill their victims after making them wish they were not born. A woman's struggle against rape COULD be a struggle for her life.
QFT!!!!
Set patterns of attack do not work. The biggest things a woman can use to her advantage are broken rhythm, speed and timing, especially timing, because true power in a strike is from its timing. Speed is also important because it increases power exponentially (MxV^2 ), which can give a smaller woman knockout power. Broken rhythm can keep an assailant from being able to "read" the womans attacks.
Notice in my previous post that I explained the use of the low Side Kick; This kick is a powerful kick whether it is thrown as a thrust to break a leg or quickly with a snap because unless the guy's a freakin Muay Thai champion, it's GONNA hurt, especially with a womans boot or even heels, not to mention when you do that, it's the longest weapon, and your opponents leg is the closest target, which keeps him away from you while causing damage.
lol, trust me Alex, I was raised on Taekwondo, so I know kicks. (pretty well in fact :P) The problem with kicks though is that they require range for the most part, and if not done correctly, it is easy for you to be knocked off balance. It is likely that a woman may already be way too close to the guy for kicks before she realizes what is going on (as in touching). At that range, knees and upper-body techniques are all that is really available. While what the Sifu said about kicks the the solar plexus is all fine for him, most people wear too restrictive of clothing, and it is an attack that can open you up for good counter-attacks. The situation we are talking about isn't sparring, it is a real life, up close situation that happens VERY fast. In such a situation, the only kicks that would probably be helpful are kicks to the kneecap, back of the knee, and groin (possibly the ankle). At close quarters, other kicks generally do not work well. As I said above, the best thing IMO for a situation like that would be quick and powerful hand techniques, that even if they fail, would distract him for a knee to the groin. With luck, a strike to the chin or nose would be enough to stun him long enough to escape his grip and run.
Kagemusha
05-13-2009, 19:45
If we assume that these two people are sitting down or even lying on a bed. The woman should forget punching, elbowing and kicks. If we assume the guy wants to rape the woman. He is more then willing to lower his pants if those are not lowered already.
In that case all she needs to do is to grab the mans testicles firmly and apply pressure as much as she can. The pain is enough for the man to pass out, or if not. He will be neutralized as any serious threat to the female for quite a long time, which will give enough time for her to escape.
If we assume that these two people are sitting down or even lying on a bed. The woman should forget punching, elbowing and kicks. If we assume the guy wants to rape the woman. He is more then willing to lower his pants if those are not lowered already.
In that case all she needs to do is to grab the mans testicles firmly and apply pressure as much as she can. The pain is enough for the man to pass out, or if not. He will be neutralized as any serious threat to the female for quite a long time, which will give enough time for her to escape.
We are talking about a situation where she feels that rape is iminent, not where he is already beginning to rape her.
The problem with martial arts, or any systematic fighting style or form (@this is directed at you too Big Tex) is that irl someone isn't gonna be kind enough to follow your complicated system of attacks and counter-attacks, and they are not gonna just sit there on the ground and allow you to stomp their knee-caps Big Tex. You have a whole chain attack there, but there is one problem with it: what happens when a link is broken? Say your first knee to the balls doesn't work and he grabs you? Or say he recovers from it and you are unable to throw him? Attacks should be seperate entities and as simple and direct as possible. If you practice some magical never fail chain of attacks, and then you find yourself unable to get it off, what are you gonna do? You are gonna have no idea at all what to do. Change with your changing foe. Do what works best NOW, at the moment. Keep it fast, keep it simple, and get the heck out as soon as you can. That is my best advice to anyone who could find themselves in a situation like that.
You are thinking of kata here, and in some martial arts this is not necessary at all. If the links is broken you adjust yourself to the situation. When I practiced Kenpo it was encouraged that whenever a kata with your opponent works out in a weird way, you try to adjust to the situation.
A strong object, a stick, a metal shaft, just about anything that's hard and long enough will do the trick. A single blow to the head and there's very little more you have to do. In the case of the victim, of course.
I just realized how awkward these last two sentences were.
rotorgun
05-13-2009, 23:49
I agree with many that the best defense is avoidance of such situations. For women the buddy system is always recommended. If it looks like the situation is getting out of hand though, a women must react quickly. Yes, set patterns do tend to breed overconfidence and choreographed responses. This is why one must practice the responses with many variations. We like to begin in natural fighting stances, or even from neutral or passive positions once the initial forms of defense are perfected. This encourages a more intuitive response to an opponents attacks. We also put some pressure on each other as we get more proficient, ie. increasing the speed of the attack, making contact with more force, and adding in multiple attackers. This results in a fighter being more tuned in to reality.
During sparring sessions, one finds out quickly that many of the choreographed techniques don't work out the same way. This causes further adjustments and teaches each student to look for opportunities to develop timing and reflexes-the dynamics of a real fight. Surprise is indeed the best ally of a trained female fighter. The average male is usually not prepared for this kind of response. Females taught in our school are told to look for an opportunity to flee as soon as possible once they can disable or distract an assailant. This is why we train them to attack knees, throats, noses, eyes and other vulnerable soft targets. Cause enough damage or pain as they can, and then run is the motto.
You are thinking of kata here, and in some martial arts this is not necessary at all. If the links is broken you adjust yourself to the situation. When I practiced Kenpo it was encouraged that whenever a kata with your opponent works out in a weird way, you try to adjust to the situation.
A strong object, a stick, a metal shaft, just about anything that's hard and long enough will do the trick. A single blow to the head and there's very little more you have to do. In the case of the victim, of course.
I just realized how awkward these last two sentences were.
I agree with many that the best defense is avoidance of such situations. For women the buddy system is always recommended. If it looks like the situation is getting out of hand though, a women must react quickly. Yes, set patterns do tend to breed overconfidence and choreographed responses. This is why one must practice the responses with many variations. We like to begin in natural fighting stances, or even from neutral or passive positions once the initial forms of defense are perfected. This encourages a more intuitive response to an opponents attacks. We also put some pressure on each other as we get more proficient, ie. increasing the speed of the attack, making contact with more force, and adding in multiple attackers. This results in a fighter being more tuned in to reality.
During sparring sessions, one finds out quickly that many of the choreographed techniques don't work out the same way. This causes further adjustments and teaches each student to look for opportunities to develop timing and reflexes-the dynamics of a real fight. Surprise is indeed the best ally of a trained female fighter. The average male is usually not prepared for this kind of response. Females taught in our school are told to look for an opportunity to flee as soon as possible once they can disable or distract an assailant. This is why we train them to attack knees, throats, noses, eyes and other vulnerable soft targets. Cause enough damage or pain as they can, and then run is the motto.
I like both of your posts, and both disagree and agree with you on some points. I hope no one minds if I steer a little toward general martial arts philosophy. I am a huge fan of Taijichuan, and think that a lot of the bad rap it gets (esp from Wing Tsun practitioners) is because it is not taught correctly. It was disguised to look like a dance during the time when it was illegal, so much of its practical application has been lost to its modern practitioners, but if you look at the great, and mighty, and nearly perfect super hero Bruce Lee (I am a fan of his :beam:), a lot of the conclusions he arrived at later in life are in the principles of Taijichuan. I think that people have to realize that the reason we have these forms/poomse/whatevers is so that we know how to transition between commonly used techniques smoothly, but they should go into your tool box separately as tools that you can pull out and use individually. The problem with set forms is that it is hard to have the proper mindset, and if you train your body to do these set forms, you may have a very difficult time adapting in a real situation. You have to do them instead to train you body how to correctly transition between techniques, but avoid getting into the rigid mindset. I think that faster paced practice with a partner where you do not just follow a set of attacks and counter attacks together is required to truelly learn it in an effective manner. I personally have found that sparring people of different styles helps a lot too, because even when you do not agree on common patterns of attack and counter attack, people tend to break into them. When you sparr people of different styles, they have different patterns that can suprise you. In a real situation, you will have NO idea what to expect, and an attack could come in any form, from any direction, at any speed, and the same thing goes for the second attack. Set patterns will not help you at all there, you need to know how to counter each attack effectively, and use some kind of counter attack yourself. That basic idea is what I really like about Wing Tsung. It is a very practical martial art. I agree with Bruce Lee (who I think is the/one of the greatest fighters of all time) that thinking along the lines of patterns and styles doesn't help at all. In a real fight you will use things that work, no matter from which style you got them from. It really is about developing yourself, and not some fighting style. Locking your brain in a style or a pattern will only hinder you if you ever have to defend yourself. That isn't any great Vuk wisdom, that is Bruce Lee's wisdom.
Kagemusha
05-16-2009, 10:18
I offered you a solution that is a) defenitely effective. b)not steering the situation to more hazardous direction for the female, but you are after some perfect combination or simple strike, when common sense can be applied. How hard it can be to convince a possible rapist to lower his pants?
I offered you a solution that is a) defenitely effective. b)not steering the situation to more hazardous direction for the female, but you are after some perfect combination or simple strike, when common sense can be applied. How hard it can be to convince a possible rapist to lower his pants?
First of all Kag, never rely on any single technique, because a) you may not have a chance to use it and b) it may fail. That is the problem I have with your solution. It lets things get that far instead of stopping them and getting out sooner, then after she has allowed/encouraged things to progress that far, she is relying on one technique, that if it fails, could put her at far greater risk. Suppose he expects that (which is likely), and suppose he stops her and knocks her to the ground and rapes her? That is the problem, you solution relies on one thing, and you suggest nothing for if it fails. Also, it is unlikely to work and WILL enrage him if he fails, AND it pulls the situation forward, when she should be stopping it from developing. That is what I did not like about your solution. If, unfortunately, the situation does progress that far it could be something she can try, but a) she shouldn't rely on it as her only defense and b) she should try to stop things from getting that far in the first place.
Kagemusha
05-16-2009, 10:41
First of all Kag, never rely on any single technique, because a) you may not have a chance to use it and b) it may fail. That is the problem I have with your solution. It lets things get that far instead of stopping them and getting out sooner, then after she has allowed/encouraged things to progress that far, she is relying on one technique, that if it fails, could put her at far greater risk. Suppose he expects that (which is likely), and suppose he stops her and knocks her to the ground and rapes her? That is the problem, you solution relies on one thing, and you suggest nothing for if it fails. Also, it is unlikely to work and WILL enrage him if he fails, AND it pulls the situation forward, when she should be stopping it from developing. That is what I did not like about your solution. If, unfortunately, the situation does progress that far it could be something she can try, but a) she shouldn't rely on it as her only defense and b) she should try to stop things from getting that far in the first place.
With that logic there is no answer to your original question. Is this a serious discussion about the "best" and most effective technique in the situation mentioned in the first post or lecture from Vuk to other Org members whom happen to reply to this thread?
With that logic there is no answer to your original question. Is this a serious discussion about the "best" and most effective technique in the situation mentioned in the first post or lecture from Vuk to other Org members whom happen to reply to this thread?
lol, it is a debate. Because I do not agree with you means I am lecturing you? :P The thing is Kag that everyone has offered open ended techniques, you did not. And I do not agree with your technique for the reasons I already gave, so in a debate you are supposed either counter my arguments, or suggest something else. No offense Kag, but I just don't agree with your technique, and I am not trying to lecture anyone. I made the thread for two reasons a) to see if people agreed with me about those arguments and b) to hopefully to find a more useful technique that could work in such a situation. I am not gonna say that something is great and would work fine though if I think it would not. Likewise, people who have disagreed with what I have suggested have voiced their disapproval of my suggestions. That is how a debate works.
EDIT: and just so you know, when I talk to other martial artists in rl and even to my masters, we make suggestions, and then someone says, well that wouldn't be ideal because of this or that, and we go through that 10s of times and use the discussion to refine or techniques. I would not presume to 'lecture' another martial artists, or indeed, any of my masters. When you contribute to discussion and add helpful criticism you help everyone and everyone gains a greater knowledge.
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.