How history will view us...

[Kurando]

I heard someone say the other day that historically speaking our society will primarily be viewed as "a culture of distraction and entertainment"

I found this to be quite a penitrating analysis, as well as a pirticularly valid point of view. Has anyone else here given any thought to how historians in the distant future might perceive our society as a whole?

[Kadagar_AV]

Our definition of hygiene is to have a thin layer of paper when using the hands to whipe the ass.

Our defenition of space travel is to strap a LOT of primitive explosives on someones back and hopefully getting him to the moon without him dying.

Our definition of diplomacy is to invade other nations.

Our definition of tolerance is to live strictly divided by ethnic groups, hunting homosexuals down.

Our definition of science is a strong lobby believing the world is 6000 years old.




To be quite honest, I'm not sure future historians will separate us from, say, the 17/18/1900 century...

If we are LUCKY they don't see us as medieval.

[Fragony]

We will be seen as the hight of the civilisation-process, if we are still there, we have achieved so much in so little time. We have learned how not to exploit, how not to impose, how to respect our surroundings, these are the greatest times men ever saw imho this is the true golden age.

[Hax]

We have learned how not to exploit, how not to impose, how to respect our surroundings, these are the greatest times men ever saw imho this is the true golden age.

Man, you're serious?

[Rhyfelwyr]

History won't be able to view us, since we will all be killed by global warming.

[Hax]

Let's not get too cheerful, eh Rhyf?

[Idaho]

We will be seen as the hight of the civilisation-process, if we are still there, we have achieved so much in so little time. We have learned how not to exploit, how not to impose, how to respect our surroundings, these are the greatest times men ever saw imho this is the true golden age.

Thanks Frag. You've given me a good laugh on a friday evening :laugh4:

[Fragony]

Man, you're serious?

Absolutely. I think this is humanity's greatest time, and I doubt we will ever surpass it. If 'we' had the means to we have now 100 years ago, other people would be so very very screwed, we have turned into concious society's. This is the pax america, and we will miss it.

Thanks Frag. You've given me a good laugh on a friday evening

100 years ago your senate recieved a letter that was written with water from the Thames, now it's safe for a swim. A soldier in Iraq is prosecuted for rape. There are overarching human rights organisations, if this isn't our greatest time, I would like to know when was. We are doing absolutely great.

[Rhyfelwyr]

To give a more serious answer, I think that we will not be one of the big era's in history that everyone studies as a turning point, or major development in human history.

The periods that everyone remembers are those of consolidation, when all the developments of the times leading up to that period eventually come to the surface, having previously laid low while they gained momentum.

For example, everyone remembers the First World War, because that is when the balance of power collapsed, having been strained by the collapse of colonialism and rising nationalism. Nobody talks much about the 50 or so years beforehand, when these issues were bubbling under the surface. They were a period of development, WWI saw the consolidation of those trends into a dramatic event.

Today, there is a lot of social change going on. Conservative values are dying, nationalism is on the decline, religious values are fading away, increasing economic interdependence is bringing the world together, at least the developed parts. We won't go down in history because nothing dramatic has happened, these are all events bubbling under the surface. What will be noted is when in x years time, we will truly indentify ourselves as 'citizens of the world', and there will be a new age of tolerance in a more politically, economically, and culturally united world. This won't be achieved through some uber world government, but by 'complex interdependence', as various non-state actors bring nations together and make the old state boundaries nearly meaningless. History will judge that period, probably favourably.

Of course, that's presuming the current trends are able to continue and reach prominence, I expect the rapture will happen before then (sorry but it had to be said). :sweatdrop:

[Kralizec]

Somewhat obviously, this period will probably be viewed as the last decades where western countries were still economically and technologically superior. I also think that people will look back at us as being rather west-centred in our thinking (how many of you follow Indian or Chinese politics for instance, versus American politics?)


Absolutely. I think this is humanity's greatest time, and I doubt we will ever surpass it. If 'we' had the means to we have now 100 years ago, other people would be so very very screwed, we have turned into concious society's. This is the pax america, and we will miss it.

Lot's to be improved, but I mostly agree. Keep in mind that 30 or 40 years ago people might have said the same thing...when the leftists were cheering for the Soviet Union and Mao Zedong and calling the west barbaric :juggle2:

[PBI]

We are living in an unprecedented technological golden age. For example, I consider myself immensely fortunate to have been born into one of the few periods of history to date in which contracting appendicitis at age 11 is considered a minor illness as opposed to a death sentence.

I certainly hope it is not the peak of our civilization, but I too would be interested to hear what earlier period could be described as a better time to be alive than this one.

[Fragony]

Lot's to be improved, but I mostly agree. Keep in mind that 30 or 40 years ago people might have said the same thing...when the leftists were cheering for the Soviet Union and Mao Zedong and calling the west barbaric :juggle2:

Just nod and hope they don't get violent when frustrated, standard policy; so easy, so hard.

[Lemur]

I think the advent of computers and the internets will be seen as a Big Deal, certainly akin to the beginning of the steam age. As for "current trends continuing," as somebody put it earlier in the thread, if there is one thing you can count on in all of history it's that nothing goes in a straight line.

Our treatment of animals on factory farms will be seen as shameful and horrifying, in much the same way that we look at children's workhouses in Victorian England as something weird and nasty.

[Samurai Waki]

We will be viewed fairly well, until the West stops dominating world politics.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Our treatment of animals on factory farms will be seen as shameful and horrifying, in much the same way that we look at children's workhouses in Victorian England as something weird and nasty.

Hmm, interesting question. Maybe the people in the future will think of our tendency to personify animals in the same way we think of the ancients personifying the wind and the sun? We'll surely know a lot more about the brain.

[CountArach]

We will be seen as the generations that failed to do what was needed to combat global warming.

We will be seen as the generations that did not learn the mistakes of war that the generations before us learned.

We will be seen as the generations who were apathetic enough to let our governments take away our rights.

We will be seen as the generations who consumed without thinking of the sustainability issues.

Etc, etc.

[Vuk]

The discussion is utterly pointless. We will be viewed in history according to how the ruling political force at the time wants us to be viewed. After we are gone, we are completely at the mercy of future politicians, intellectuals, rights groups, religious groups, etc. If they choose to, we will be angels, or if they choose to, we will be devils. Truth rarely troubles historians and to this day most of what we believe about history is a construct created by social, political, and religious victors.

[CountArach]

The discussion is utterly pointless. We will be viewed in history according to how the ruling political force at the time wants us to be viewed. After we are gone, we are completely at the mercy of future politicians, intellectuals, rights groups, religious groups, etc. If they choose to, we will be angels, or if they choose to, we will be devils. Truth rarely troubles historians and to this day most of what we believe about history is a construct created by social, political, and religious victors.
I...

I...

I...

I... think I agree with Vuk :inquisitive:

(Except the bolded statement, to which I take great exception, being an aspiring historian...)

[Vuk]

I...

I...

I...

I... think I agree with Vuk :inquisitive:

(Except the bolded statement, to which I take great exception, being an aspiring historian...)

lol, this is a first ladies and gentlemen. ~;)
I am an aspiring historian myself, and I certainly appreciate it when historians don't let the ruling ideology and their own political, social, and religious views dictate their work, BUT, sadly that IS what happens most times. Sure, there are a lot of good historians out there who are not perfect, but try their best. On the other hand, most historians you read try to twist history to fit their views. History should define your views, your views should not define what you publish as history. Most historians do not get that though, which is why to this day it is nearly impossible to find out the truth about so maaany things.

EDIT: and don't get the wrong idea, I don't think that historians are for the most part a bunch of clandestine, conspiring wackos. They are just people so set in their ideas that they allow themselves to reconstruct history according to those ideas. They will overanalyze something, or take something waaay out of context to make it fit their ideas. They will make wild presumptions, and some will even make things up. People are people though, and nothing about it is going to change. The only thing that we can do is try to make it better by getting better historians in the field.

[rajpoot]

History won't be able to view us, since we will all be killed by global warming.

Gloomy and grim, but nonetheless, seconded. No one's going to be around to judge us.


If anyone does survive, maybe they'll have to devote a lot more amount of time to study us and our single century than we do to study the last thousand years, since more has happened in the last hundred years than ever before.....many ideas have come and gone, many wars have been fought.....the world has changed drastically.


Far as historians are concerned, I think it's not just historians....all of us are more or less biased towards one or the other idea. It just can't be helped. No living being can be perfectly neutral about all things.

[Fragony]

oh *** can we please get back to pig-flue and credit crisis global warming is too scary :wall::wall::wall:**

[Vuk]

lol, to watch you guys seriously afraid and thinking that everyone will die of global warming...it is just too funny. :laugh4: I got a feeling that years from now you are gonna be looking back and thinking to yourself: "was I ever really that silly?" :P
It reminds me of the swine flu hysteria, only much worse.
It is not global warming you have to look out for, it is a global war and it is coming fast...too fast.

[Incongruous]

An age of ever expanding egotism and self obsession on the part of most Westerners, social history will be viewed as individuals trying to be themselves a little to hard, seriously, in my age group there is so much fakery I predict that people will soon start to collaps inwards as they try to find themselves, even more.

Just look at the sites like facebook and Myspace, so much ego you could slice it with a bread knife, heck even here on the org people are encouraged to become so self centered that they simply reply to posts with things like this :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4: or some other off the cuff crap. I am one of 'em.

I think CR had it a while ago when talking about my age group, he posted a review of some new young adult/teen film which pretty much summed up how bollocks me and my generation really are.

Meh, time to sign the grumpy old bugger out.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I second the above grumpy old bugger. I am sick of the values I've been spoon fed ever since I started secondary school, its all about furthering yourself, greed is good, me me me etc.

[Fragony]

Must be you two. Live with a smile and life smiles back. I see nothing aparently, I see no increase in egoism, quite the opposite really. Fakery, no don't see that either. The english usually don't have to fake to be annoying. Maybe I live on a tiny little island where all things are fine but I really don't understand the pessimism. These are fabulous times if you ask me, everything has improved, count your blessings.

[Incongruous]

I second the above grumpy old bugger. I am sick of the values I've been spoon fed ever since I started secondary school, its all about furthering yourself, greed is good, me me me etc.

It is not so much the greed is good part, its the general "whatever man", "be who you want to be" crap being over used in school and society. It seems to have created a generation of people whith chronically low self-esteem which leads to self obsession which leads to massive amounts of fakery and ego. Acting, is the prime game of life.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Is self-esteem really an issue with our generation (presuming you are around 19)? We are always being taught to be confident, to sell ourselves, its a dog eat dog world etc...

[Incongruous]

Is self-esteem really an issue with our generation (presuming you are around 19)? We are always being taught to be confident, to sell ourselves, its a dog eat dog world etc...

The perfect way to create someone with low self esteem, tell them how brutal and individual it all is, its helps to erect the shield of individualism, put there in order to protect whilst it isolates. I see it less as a product of greed, but agree about the me, me ,me stuff. Its all about how one can be oh so special, so exceptional, so individual. Because these things are impossible to achieve for most of us, it reall feks us up, creating all that stuff I talked about.

[Fragony]

The perfect way to create someone with low self esteem, tell them how brutal and individual it all is, its helps to erect the shield of individualism, put there in order to protect whilst it isolates.

Screw that, it's the nanny-mentality yes we can-all together! that prevents us from being individuals, we are hammered to equal size, everything must be equal, everything must be representative of society.

[PBI]

These are rich men's problems, like complaining that your garage is too small for all your sports cars or your supermodel girlfriends won't stop pestering you for sex. Deprived of actual problems like war, famine or plague to worry about our society blows real but minor problems out of all proportion, like Islamic terrorism or climate change.

Self obsession and egotism are nothing new, nor is the tendency for every generation to view itself as the pinnacle of human development and the one following it as useless layabouts who will bring about the end of civilization. It's just that it's only recently that people have had the luxury of time to notice these things without being preoccupied by their family dieing of cholera or being slaughtered by marauding armies. Personally I prefer to live in a society where everyone has enough to eat than one where we can all feel smug about our moral fiber as we starve to death.

[Fragony]

These are rich men's problems

Yes. Count your blessings.

[Incongruous]

Screw that, it's the nanny-mentality yes we can-all together! that prevents us from being individuals, we are hammered to equal size, everything must be equal, everything must be representative of society.

What nanny-mentality?
Every society has a collective sense of itse;f and what it is, the modern attempt to stamp INDIVIDUALISM onto it in big red capital letters has really screwed Westerners up. It is a society of individulaism, that cannot work.

I am using individualism in the modern sense, I do not want to be controlled by society.

[Incongruous]

These are rich men's problems, like complaining that your garage is too small for all your sports cars or your supermodel girlfriends won't stop pestering you for sex. Deprived of actual problems like war, famine or plague to worry about our society blows real but minor problems out of all proportion, like Islamic terrorism or climate change.

Self obsession and egotism are nothing new, nor is the tendency for every generation to view itself as the pinnacle of human development and the one following it as useless layabouts who will bring about the end of civilization. It's just that it's only recently that people have had the luxury of time to notice these things without being preoccupied by their family dieing of cholera or being slaughtered by marauding armies. Personally I prefer to live in a society where everyone has enough to eat than one where we can all feel smug about our moral fiber as we starve to death.

I'm not rich, I'm normal, and I expect that such issues span all facets of Western society.

[Vuk]

People are people and always will be people. People have been made to believe that they are incredibly more enlightened and civilized than the barbarians of the past or of other cultures plenty of times before (think Rome, Greece, Egypt, etc). The only difference is that living has become so much easier that people now adays are worth a heck of a lot less than the people before them. If they put themselves in context it would be one thing, but people now adays think that they are enlightened, intelligent, moral entities who are so far above the primitives who came before them. They do not realize just how little they know of the lives of those who came before them and their own lives. How would they perform if they were sent back to the 1800s? To the 1700s? To the 1600s? None of them would survive. People now adays are less industrious, for the most part less educated then people in some past time periods, and certainly have to think less than most people from most past time periods. They have many more conveniences and have much less responsibility. Sure, there are unique challenges to modern people, including a much faster paced life, but overall life is much easier and much fairer than it used to be. Not because of us, but because of those people who came before us who we are so quick to condemn. They are the ones who built the pedestal we now stand on, and we have risen so high and grown so comfortable that we cease to build it, and indeed, cease to maintain it. Much as other great civilizations that have risen and fallen, we are getting to the point where we have grown completely content with life and ceased to maintain the foundation that everything we enjoy is built on, and when we do try to grow, we try to grow in a different direction and build upwards without a foundation. We will collapse, but we are so much higher (as far as the comfort of our living style and our distance from real life) than those who came before us (no thanks to us) that we will fall all the harder, and probably not be able to pick ourselves up. If we have any strength at all, we will find the ground, reality, on which we fall to be so foriegn and so dreadfull that we will not know what to do. It is not that we are anymore stupid today than we were 5000 years ago, simply that we have a lot more to lose for our stupidity and will have a much smaller chance of recovering.

I'll leave you to decifer my cryptic post. :P

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

[Incongruous]

People are people and always will be people. People have been made to believe that they are incredibly more enlightened and civilized than the barbarians of the past or of other cultures plenty of times before (think Rome, Greece, Egypt, etc). The only difference is that living has become so much easier that people now adays are worth a heck of a lot less than the people before them. If they put themselves in context it would be one thing, but people now adays think that they are enlightened, intelligent, moral entities who are so far above the primitives who came before them. They do not realize just how little they know of the lives of those who came before them and their own lives. How would they perform if they were sent back to the 1800s? To the 1700s? To the 1600s? None of them would survive. People now adays are less industrious, for the most part less educated then people in some past time periods, and certainly have to think less than most people from most past time periods. They have many more conveniences and have much less responsibility. Sure, there are unique challenges to modern people, including a much faster paced life, but overall life is much easier and much fairer than it used to be. Not because of us, but because of those people who came before us who we are so quick to condemn. They are the ones who built the pedestal we now stand on, and we have risen so high and grown so comfortable that we cease to build it, and indeed, cease to maintain it. Much as other great civilizations that have risen and fallen, we are getting to the point where we have grown completely content with life and ceased to maintain the foundation that everything we enjoy is built on, and when we do try to grow, we try to grow in a different direction and build upwards without a foundation. We will collapse, but we are so much higher (as far as the comfort of our living style and our distance from real life) than those who came before us (no thanks to us) that we will fall all the harder, and probably not be able to pick ourselves up. If we have any strength at all, we will find the ground, reality, on which we fall to be so foriegn and so dreadfull that we will not know what to do. It is not that we are anymore stupid today than we were 5000 years ago, simply that we have a lot more to lose for our stupidity and will have a much smaller chance of recovering.

I'll leave you to decifer my cryptic post. :P

More educated? You joking?

They sure were barbaric, not only were they enjoying God's will to slaughter everyone who disagreed with them, they had no flushing toilets.

[Fragony]

What nanny-mentality?
Every society has a collective sense of itse;f and what it is, the modern attempt to stamp INDIVIDUALISM onto it in big red capital letters has really screwed Westerners up. It is a society of individulaism, that cannot work.

I am using individualism in the modern sense, I do not want to be controlled by society.

Doesn't work? Look around you, it works just fine the west as it is now is the best thing thjat ever happened to the world, it's progress. If you ask me, things go wrong for some people because they get bored.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Of course I count my blessing, we get to take advantage of all the modern technology, medical advances, working conditions etc....

I'm not complaining about that, I'm just saying that this western culture is turning everyone into :daisy:'s who are always told to boast about how great they are and to look out for no.1

[Vuk]

More educated? You joking?

They sure were barbaric, not only were they enjoying God's will to slaughter everyone who disagreed with them, they had no flushing toilets.

More educated does not mean that their science was more advanced, simply that they had a better understanding and were more involved with what they had than most people are today. And yeah, they were often more barbaric than we are today, but that was because they were in a much tougher world where they often had to be. We are in the world that they built, and their work allows us to enjoy relative peace. Everything we have is thanks to them, not to ourselves (no, I am not suggesting ancestor worship, simply saying we shouldn't get a big head). And you have to remember that different regions of the world and different people went through different stages of peacefulness and barbarism. Look at modern people. Not too long ago we have WWII, one of the most barbaric things in history. Oh how superior the modern man proved to be. For all you know we may soon be in WWIII, because we think we know everything and do not build on the knowledge of those who came before us and made the mistakes.
As far is individualism, you are wrong. If you live in a society where people can barely eat, it will be even worse. You will have starving, desperate people fighting to survive, and a group of wealthy who controls the majority of the very limited food. Some would live like kings, and others like dogs. Better some live like gods and others like kings.

[Fragony]

I'm not complaining about that, I'm just saying that this western culture is turning everyone into :daisy:'s who are always told to boast about how great they are and to look out for no.1

Turning into what, have a chat with the new boyfriend of my grandma (the little minx) and he will tell you about the old times when everybody was nice and nobody had sex before marriage. But he won't tell you that because these times just never existed, and he had a lot of fun when he was young. All that people are complaining about is nothing new, egoism and all that , it just happens in a much better place.

[PBI]

I'm not rich, I'm normal, and I expect that such issues span all facets of Western society.

Compared to the average citizen of just about every other society in history you are immeasurably wealthy. In fact, compared to the richest men of just about every society in history you are immeasurably wealthy. As a normal citizen of this country you have access to luxury, health and security the Emperors of Rome could only dream of.

That is all I meant in my reference to rich men's problems, that our society is essentially free from the kind of catastrophes that were a part of everyday life in earlier civilizations and is thus at liberty to consider more minor issues.

Incidentally, I find it a new and interesting experience to be in complete agreement with Fragony. Is this what it feels like to be right wing?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Turning into what, have a chat with the new boyfriend of my grandma (the little minx) and he will tell you about the old times when everybody was nice and nobody had sex before marriage. But he won't tell you that because these times just never existed, and he had a lot of fun when he was young. All that people are complaining about is nothing new, egoism and all that , it just happens in a much better place.

Yeah I know, I used to respect older people until I looked back at their own generations, and they were every bit if not more decadent than us nowadays.

You have to go back a few centuries before I am happy.

[Vuk]

Incidentally, I find it a new and interesting experience to be in complete agreement with Fragony. Is this what it feels like to be right wing?

lol, by American standards, Frag is not rightwing. :P You will know when you are rightwing when turn male (if you are not already), age to 40 years old (if you are not already), get fat, go bald, start carrying a sawed-off shotgun with you and searching under the bed for commies while planning to rid the world of the evil black president and bring back the greatness of Nazism. Nah, not really, but that is what the media would have you believe. :P

[Fragony]

Incidentally, I find it a new and interesting experience to be in complete agreement with Fragony. Is this what it feels like to be right wing?

You can't really be sure until you kick a :daisy:

edit: Same quote wat teh vuk, synchrone-postage

[Che Roriniho]

On paper, this should be the greatest time yet, but sadly, it just doesn't appear to be so. We have so much intolerence, so much cruelty, so much beurocracy, that I doubt that future generations will look back to us with massive interest. No, I believe they will look back with slight distaste combined with huge boredom. Think the 12th century, but with Guns.

[Vuk]

On paper, this should be the greatest time yet, but sadly, it just doesn't appear to be so. We have so much intolerence, so much cruelty, so much beurocracy, that I doubt that future generations will look back to us with massive interest. No, I believe they will look back with slight distaste combined with huge boredom. Think the 12th century, but with Guns.

Tell me ONE time in history when there was LESS cruelty and intolerence? Give me one century. Give me even a span of 20 years when there was less cruelty and intolerence across the world!

[Hooahguy]

i think they will laugh

[Kralizec]

On paper, this should be the greatest time yet, but sadly, it just doesn't appear to be so. We have so much intolerence, so much cruelty, so much beurocracy, that I doubt that future generations will look back to us with massive interest. No, I believe they will look back with slight distaste combined with huge boredom. Think the 12th century, but with Guns.

Serious lack of perspective here- maybe in a couple of centuries peopel will be so open minded and tolerant that they can't see the difference between early 21th century and medieval mentality, but you have no such excuse.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

So much pessimism in this thread. We've improved by leaps and bounds. The 20th century will be remembered as a century where humanity overcame our warring instincts, moved towards equality for all races and genders, and created enormous amounts of music and film.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...and created enormous amounts of music and film.

Some of which is even worth watching/listening.

[Che Roriniho]

By now, I mean the 21st century so far. The 20th wasn't so bad.

[Megas Methuselah]

The 20th wasn't so bad.

Isn't sarcasm in green?

[Che Roriniho]

Isn't sarcasm in green?

Dunno, we came reasonably close to beating back the disease of religion, found out how most of th universe works, to an extent, and made the world tiny. Oh, and we got into space. Biggie, that one.

[Che Roriniho]

Isn't sarcasm in green?

Dunno, we came reasonably close to beating back the disease of religion, found out how most of th universe works, to an extent, and made the world tiny. Oh, and we got into space. Biggie, that one.

[Hooahguy]

Isn't sarcasm in green?

yes, Che. sarcasm is in green

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

we came reasonably close to beating back the disease of religion

Trolling, thy name is Che.

[Che Roriniho]

Trolling, thy name is Che.


Disease
–noun
1. a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment.
2. any abnormal condition in a plant that interferes with its vital physiological processes, caused by pathogenic microorganisms, parasites, unfavorable environmental, genetic, or nutritional factors, etc.
3. any harmful, depraved, or morbid condition, as of the mind or society: His fascination with executions is a disease.
4. decomposition of a material under special circumstances: tin disease.

Remind me again, how many people have died in the past 100 years from the belief in a completely irrational being? Millions. That is a disease in society, pure and simple. The sooner we cure ourselves of this, the better for everyone.
This past century we've done well, but believe me, in 2,000 years people will look back in amazement that when we launched ourselves off this tiny insignificant planet of ours, some of us were genuinely surprised and dissapointed that we didn''t crash into a bearded bloke on the way up.

[Hooahguy]

but also ask how many people religion has SAVED.
i know of people who were on the brink of suicide who turned to religion and decided to live on.
one of those people is my uncle, who now lives a good life with a wife and two kids.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Remind me again, how many people have died in the past 100 years from the belief in a completely irrational being? Millions. That is a disease in society, pure and simple. The sooner we cure ourselves of this, the better for everyone.

Obvious troll again. You really don't see what I'm getting at, do you?

[Hooahguy]

Obvious troll again. You really don't see what I'm getting at, do you?
take it easy, EMFM. he's new. :lost:

[Samurai Waki]

I think the subject of religion is a little off topic, and no matter what people like to believe in things that are bigger than themselves, Religion is respectable outlet, that suffers from the problems as any ideology, extremism.

[Che Roriniho]

but also ask how many people religion has SAVED.
i know of people who were on the brink of suicide who turned to religion and decided to live on.
one of those people is my uncle, who now lives a good life with a wife and two kids.

I take that uncle, and counter him with my own. Killed by Jewish Terrorists in 1946. His Grandchildren would be my age now.

I also counter him with the Holocaust, Rwanda, 9/11 (and other Islamic Extremism), and Northern Ireland. Total estimated casualties: About 9 Million. And that's only counting the big attacks.

Nine. Million.

They all lie dead because people don't stand up for reason. They all lie dead, because the common theist hasn't the guts to stand up and think. The blood of those Nine million is on the common theists hands.

Nine. Million.

So don't say that we have had a boom in tolerance, because those nine million bodies are proof to the contrary.

Nine Million Bodies. Each one had a life, friends, lovers, and family. Each one made some contribution to the world around them, which was cut short by people thinking that there is a MAN in the SKY. Am I the only one here who sees how utterly irrational that idea is. People have been killed because people think that a MAN IN THE SKY is telling them to. And not just a couple.

Nine Million.




EDIT:
I think the subject of religion is a little off topic, and no matter what people like to believe in things that are bigger than themselves, Religion is respectable outlet, that suffers from the problems as any ideology, extremism.
Except that Religion is utterly, and completely daft. Seriously. Someone has managed to convince people that there is a man in the sky that watches them all the time, and it's the people who refuse to believe this that are the social outcasts. WHAT?

[KukriKhan]

So much pessimism in this thread. We've improved by leaps and bounds. The 20th century will be remembered as a century where humanity overcame our warring instincts, moved towards equality for all races and genders, and created enormous amounts of music and film.

Worry-wart that I am, I worry that all the stuff we've digitalized, much of it eminently worthwhile and which desperately ought to be passed on, may not survive catastrophy, or be playable/readable in the future. Think Library of Alexandria, writ: global.

[Hooahguy]

and how do you know how many have been saved by religion?

also, the Nazis didnt commit genocide because god told them to. they did becasue the maniac called hitler told them to. and he is not god.

anyhow, have fun trolling.

[Samurai Waki]

I take that uncle, and counter him with my own. Killed by Jewish Terrorists in 1946. His Grandchildren would be my age now.

I also counter him with the Holocaust, Rwanda, 9/11 (and other Islamic Extremism), and Northern Ireland. Total estimated casualties: About 9 Million. And that's only counting the big attacks.

Nine. Million.

They all lie dead because people don't stand up for reason. They all lie dead, because the common theist hasn't the guts to stand up and think. The blood of those Nine million is on the common theists hands.

Nine. Million.

So don't say that we have had a boom in tolerance, because those nine million bodies are proof to the contrary.

Nine Million Bodies. Each one had a life, friends, lovers, and family. Each one made some contribution to the world around them, which was cut short by people thinking that there is a MAN in the SKY. Am I the only one here who sees how utterly irrational that idea is. People have been killed because people think that a MAN IN THE SKY is telling them to. And not just a couple.

Nine Million.




EDIT:
Except that Religion is utterly, and completely daft. Seriously. Someone has managed to convince people that there is a man in the sky that watches them all the time, and it's the people who refuse to believe this that are the social outcasts. WHAT?

Bollocks. How many people were killed by the people who didn't believe there was a big man in the Sky in the last 100 years? ....100+ Million? So this argument carries no weight whatsoever.

And by the by The Rwanda Genocide was Ethnically motivated, not religiously.

[Che Roriniho]

and how do you know how many have been saved by religion?

also, the Nazis didnt commit genocide because god told them to. they did becasue the maniac called hitler told them to. and he is not god.

anyhow, have fun trolling.

Certainly not 9 million. And why did Hitler tell them to? *points skyward*

To bolt on to my previous post, why is everyone who points out the obvious stupidity in the Mits argument (Man in the sky. Just read that again. a MAN. in the SKY.) gets called a troll.

Religion bashing sentence removed. SF

[Hooahguy]

Certainly not 9 million. And why did Hitler tell them to? *points skyward*
whoooooooaaaaaa......

read up on holocaust history, then come back.

[Samurai Waki]

Yes, please before flaming religion, it is generally acceptable you actually read up on events instead of creating the Religious Bogey Man as a Scapegoat for all the worlds shortcomings.

[Che Roriniho]

Bollocks. How many people were killed by the people who didn't believe there was a big man in the Sky in the last 100 years? ....100+ Million? So this argument carries no weight whatsoever.

And by the by The Rwanda Genocide was Ethnically motivated, not religiously.

Except for the fact that t of those 9 million would still be alive, or at least would have died from natural causes, yes, you are right.

But srsly, you've got to be joking. Nobody can bypass an argument THAT BADLY, can they?

[Che Roriniho]

whoooooooaaaaaa......

read up on holocaust history, then come back.

Wow, you have been indoctrinated. You're ALMOST right, and yet so wrong.

I refer to Hans Küng, a priest, so you'd expect him to take your side, however:

"Nazi anti-Judaism was the work of godless, anti-Christian criminals. But it would not have been possible without the almost two thousand years' pre-history of 'Christian' anti-Judaism..."

Yeh. Religion again. Damn. Looks like... Oh, nips. It looks like religion has killed more people. What a surprise.

[Samurai Waki]

Wow, you have been indoctrinated. You're ALMOST right, and yet so wrong.

I refer to Hans Küng, a priest, so you'd expect him to take your side, however:

"Nazi anti-Judaism was the work of godless, anti-Christian criminals. But it would not have been possible without the almost two thousand years' pre-history of 'Christian' anti-Judaism..."

Yeh. Religion again. Damn. Looks like... Oh, nips. It looks like religion has killed more people. What a surprise.

Then Riddle Me this, how come the Nazis also went after the Deaf, Dumb, Blind, Lame, Slavs, Gypsies, and anyone else deemed an undesirable? All of these people have absolutely nothing to do with the 2000 year history between Christianity and Judaism.

[Che Roriniho]

whoooooooaaaaaa......

read up on holocaust history, then come back.

Wow, you have been indoctrinated. You're ALMOST right, and yet so wrong.

I refer to Hans Küng, a priest, so you'd expect him to take your side, however:

"Nazi anti-Judaism was the work of godless, anti-Christian criminals. But it would not have been possible without the almost two thousand years' pre-history of 'Christian' anti-Judaism..."

Yeh. Religion again. Damn. Looks like... Oh, nips. It looks like religion has killed more people. What a surprise.


In other news, LETS GB2T.

[Hooahguy]

whatever, troll.

im going to email Dr. Lipstadt, who just happens to be a friend of mine, and we will see what she says on the matter.

also, Che, your disprespect for people who are religious is disgusting. there are a host of athiests in the backroom and all but you show respect for others, like we give to them.
come back when you learn backroom manners.

[Marshal Murat]

9 Million deaths
I think you're absurd view that 9 Million deaths is a tragedy. It has prevented massive overpopulation of our currently overburdened planet...I'm going to stop feeding the troll now.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I the Holocaust, Rwanda, 9/11 (and other Islamic Extremism), and Northern Ireland

Despite the fact that religion doesn't exist to get a pat on the head from secular folks because we like to prove we are compatible with western society, I'll point some stuff out anyway.

The Jewish part of the Holocaust was caused by nationalism, and a deranged bunch of leaders who thought that the Jewish RACE were inferior and had to be exterminated for the glorious Aryans to rise to domination.

The Rwandan genocide was caused because of RACIAL conflict between Hutu's and Tutsi's because one had been seen as slaves to the other throught history and so they weren't happy having one of them running the country.

Can't argue with 9/11.

You would have to be :dizzy2: to blame the Troubles in NI on religion. The conflict was again based on RACE, and tied in with that culture, which was something that religion happened to coincide with. On the Irish nationalist side in particular, the IRA did not see themselves as fighting to restore Catholicism, but more commonly spreading the Marxist revolution (you're a lefty like myself but you don't argue that the violence in the name of communism makes it a disease). Religious rhetoric was much more common on the Unionist side, and yet I don't get the impression those in the UDA or the UVF did their work with a Bible in their pocket.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I take that uncle, and counter him with my own. Killed by Jewish Terrorists in 1946. His Grandchildren would be my age now.

Oh, is that why you hate Israel?


Holocaust

Nothing to do with religion.


Rwanda

I'm fairly sure that was ethnic, not religious.


They all lie dead because people don't stand up for reason. They all lie dead, because the common theist hasn't the guts to stand up and think. The blood of those Nine million is on the common theists hands.

Over One Hundred. Million.

All dead from atheist regimes. The three largest murdering regimes in history, all atheist or areligious.

One Hundred. Million.



Except that Religion is utterly, and completely daft. Seriously. Someone has managed to convince people that there is a man in the sky that watches them all the time, and it's the people who refuse to believe this that are the social outcasts. WHAT?

1) You aren't social outcasts.
2) You believe that random particles hit random other particles at random times to randomly create everything we have now.
3) Regardless of your beliefs or lack of them, you have no right to insult others as you have been doing.

[KukriKhan]

2) You believe that random particles hit random other particles at random times to randomly create everything we have now.

Sorry. Just quoted it because it tickled me, and my love of "loaded simplicity". :thumbsup:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Apparently, history will have to remember us as impolite.

Too much vitriol, thread closed.