Tactical use of Yari Ashigaru in SP

[JoBeare]

There have been a quite a few uses of YA discussed in previous threads. Here are some favorites.

1. Arrow stoppers. I think everyone has sent out some poor ashi unit across a bridge to soak up some arrows before the real fighting begins. Pretty straight forward.
2. Flanking units. Speed and numbers can give them a formidable edge against weaker foes.
3. Chasing down routed units. Only thing better is Cavalry.

This is how I typically use YAs in tactical situations. YA comprise about half of my army. Form the YA into a single sine formation so that the units form squares. (8X8 for 60 men units or 12X10 for 120 men units). Change them to hold formation. Next put your samurai hth troops in columns (4X15 for 60 men units 5X24 for 120 men units) behind the YA. Put the SA in loose formation in front of the YA. An additional YS on each end of the YA line is sometimes beneficial to keep from getting flanked.

In combat, when the time comes to charge, run the YA and samurai hth line forward together. As the YA approach the enemy, try to pick out a single unit for each of the YA. As the YA engage these units, the enemy unit will wrap the YA square. As this happens, gaps open in the enemy’s line and the samurais in the second ranks have a clear shot though behind the enemy. Columns work much better at shooting the gaps than wedges or extended lines. Once the enemy units are caught between the YA squares and samurai, they don’t last long. The center of the enemy army will give away as his flanks are wrapping you. Once this happens his flankers are out flanked because there is no center to support them.

The keys to making this work are:

1. Put the YA in deep square formations with orders to hold formation. This greatly increases the time of survival of these units. They won’t rout on contact.
2. Put your shock troops in narrow columns in areas where you expect gaps to form. Columns are a lot easier to slip though narrow gaps than wedges or lines


JoBeare

[EasyCo]

Is this a Offensive or Defenese? Both of them?

EasyCo

[Satake]

Jobeare... check ur forum rank... see that nice bridge there? now move! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Jackson]

JoBeare,

Are you doing this in campaign or custom battle mode? As a general rule, I never use YA to attack in campaign mode. I'm just not good enough. If one unit routs, I'm in deep $hit. I always try to have a qualitative advantage in the campaign. It saves lives and wins battles. Once the other clans start producing even a few WM or ND, a YA army becomes obsolete.

[The Bear]

Jackson you would be surprised at how good are tech up YA even well into the SP game. A 4 honour YA can take out up to an honour 2 YS. Add some armor and weapon upgrades and you have a very cheap and fast archer, musket and cav killer unit.

In MP high honour YA can cause such a bad surprise to the ennemy who doesn't take time to check out An YA unit's honour...

[Shuko]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoBeare:
[B]There have been a quite a few uses of YA discussed in previous threads. Here are some favorites.
1. Arrow stoppers. 2. Flanking units. Speed and numbers can give them a formidable edge against weaker foes.
3. Chasing down routed units.


I am LOST here on point 2 "against weaker foes". You mean enemy units that have already been mangled by w/m or n/d or cav ? There are no other weaker foes except numerically less yari ashigaru units.

I have little time for yari ashigarus except when they have superior armour and an honour bonus. Otherwise it is purely province guarding duties for them.

[JoBeare]

EasyCo,
Both.

Jackson,
Campaign. Honor bonuses are essential. The YA should stand up to the ND. Monks are another story. If you can engage the monk unit with a YA square and slip a ND, monk, or YC unit behind the monk unit, the monk unit should rout before the YA does.

Shuko,
Sorry for the vague statement. Weaker, meaning YS, YA, YC, CA, or YA. A numerical mismatch(2-1 or better) and room to maneuver
will often result in a win for the YA.

JoBeare

[Shuko]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoBeare:
The YA should stand up to the ND. Monks are another story. If you can engage the monk unit with a YA square and slip a ND, monk, or YC unit behind the monk unit, the monk unit should rout before the YA does.

In general discussion for above points. Don't agree as the N/D (eg. 2h)initially lose but then start winning comfortably if it is a head to head attack with Y/A. Don't forget the other player will usually flank and attack your extra flank units, the poor old Y/A then run for their f..... lives off the map. They are the fastest retreating units in any game I have ever played. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

With W/M if they are 'impetuous' then often the Y/A will collapse before any other unit can help them. In some online games my W/M (2h) simply charge and the Y/A (below say 4h) flee in 30 seconds. Happy to play you online and experiment with this, we could both learn more.

[Tone]

YA aren't so hot on mp. But against the AI they are great. The AI is stupid, isolates his own units, rarely responds to flankers etc.

Shai's Oda method shows how good they can be. Take out the ronin WM 1st turn with SA and YA. Recieve the charge with SA and flank with YA and the monks rout quickly. Works every time, even on expert where the monks have a hidden honour bonus.

The other great thing about using YA as flankers is that if they rout you're Samurai don't give a sh1t. But when you rout his WM, just sit and watch every nearby enemy unit start legging it.

JoBeare: your thin column tactic is new to me. I normaly incite the AI into a piecemeal staggered charge. Leaving plenty of room to isolate units and flank with YA, routing them in before the AI throws his next lot at you. If the 1st lot to rout are WM I often do an all out charge with everything, the morale hit on the enemy is usualy enough for the rest to rout. Then it's time to watch them chase everything down. Not forgetting to gloat and take a screen shot of your YA units with triple figure kills against monks.

[barocca]

I'd just like to add 2 cents to this discussion.

Firstly I have seen retreating Ashi's cause Sam's to waver.
If anything is retreating through your lines try and get out of it's way!

Secondly I have seen Low koku games (2000/3000 koku) where I took 6 to 8 fair units and been cut to ribbons by numerically superior Ashi's.

I can see the "order mixed" (column and line/square) tactic working quite well in a low koku game.

I have also seen 5000+ koku games where Ashi Hordes have decimated opponents.
One of my clan mates used to have a LOT of fun doing this in friendlies!

Don't underestimate your Ashi's!


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DoragonBarocca of Clan Doragon (http://clandragon2.homestead.com/Dragon01.html)

[Moriboy]

I've never understood why folks only think routing units that pour through other standing units cause them to waver. I've seen routing units with a clear path to the rear cause other attacking units, or those on standby in close proximity to waver.

[Shuko]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by barocca:
Don't underestimate your Ashi's!

That's ok but even in expert level I only use them to attack when the cupboard is bare. They are cheap and good guards, that is their saving grace in my eyes.

[shingenmitch2]

The problem I have with ASHI's is this:

In a 5000 koku MP game (fairly standard setup)

1st. Problem -- no matter how high the ASHI's honor, they seem to flag easier than other troops. I've had my 8 honor Ashi General start fleeing just when I need him to turn and attack. My level 3 honor YS General doesn't do this nearly as often.

2nd They need to be cost effective. To beat a level 2 YS, a YA needs to be over 4 honor, but then it starts to cost as much as level 2 Monk-- which is a better buy from my experience.

3rd (sort of same as 2nd) Yes, a high level Ashi can defeat a lower level monk unit -- but at what cost? It certainly cost more than the monk it defeated. So then the only benefit really, is the potential suprise to an opponent who thinks it's a cheap YA.

And at 5000 koku, you don't get the numerical superiority that u can with YA in "super low" koku game.

I could be wrong about these things, but this has been my experience with the YA.

[This message has been edited by shingenmitch2 (edited 05-29-2001).]

[EasyCo]

THe SP...yes...But not MP...Right JoBear?? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif

EasyCo

[Vanya]

What?!? An H4 Ashigaru is FAR cheaper than an H2 monkie! An H7 Ashigaru is about a tad more than an H2 monkie...!

[shingenmitch2]

my bad, should have read H2 YS.

But I think my point still holds. For a YA to defeat any given troop type, it needs an honor high enough that the YA winds up costing as much or more than the unit it is attempting to defeat.

If it is a YA H8 required to defeat a WM H2, then it will cost more than that WM to buy, and therefore it is no real benefit to use the YA. I'm not certain, but it seems that although it is a H8 unit, it is not more steady than the H2 monk because it is the naturally unsteady YA troop type.

[BanzaiZAP]

Part of the point is that you don't need the YA to be Honor 8. For the same price you get an H-4 YA, and an H-2 YS. Now you have the YA absord the monk charge, and flank them with you additional unit. This doesn't work in 5000+ games, simply because the enemy can afford 16 WM's, so you can not take advantage of outnumbering your opponent.

I like JoBeare's SP tactic! I've been doing a similar thing, but I've been using wedges, so I'll have to try the narrow-column variation. I never had much problem getting wedges through, but I'm willing to see if my units can punch through faster. In my armies, I've been using squares of YS, with ND and WM to punch through to the other side. Much more expensive, so its been a late-game anti-Horde tactic.

-- B)

[Vanya]

I like stretching my YA out into a long single-row line. And I put them in hold formation and hold position for extra shock-absorption.

Sure, your unit will get a penalty if the enemy breaks it in two... but what are the odds of that? Nil with YA. And your peasants can stretch from side to side! Excellent for seek-and-destroy missions you would never commit your premium troops to...

[TheSmisker]

Quote Originally posted by Vanya:
I like stretching my YA out into a long single-row line. And I put them in hold formation and hold position for extra shock-absorption.

Sure, your unit will get a penalty if the enemy breaks it in two... but what are the odds of that? Nil with YA. And your peasants can stretch from side to side! Excellent for seek-and-destroy missions you would never commit your premium troops to...[/QUOTE]

What do you mean? you put them in front of your troops and let them absorb the initial blow?




------------------
SupremeWannabee

[Shuko]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vanya:
[B]I like stretching my YA out into a long single-row line. And I put them in hold formation and hold position for extra shock-absorption.


I think the only shock you will get is just how soon they will flee.Your YA would have to be very high honour to stay there, and at a certain loss percentage they break and run.

You have tried this in low koku games? When do you play online?

[Vanya]

I never waste scarce koku in honor! My armies lack courage and honor anyways! Thus, I usually just stick with H0 YA, and use the koku saved to get support forces.

But, I must be candid with you -- this is a strategy that will give you a win only a mere 82% of the time. I'm sure I do not need to reiterate to the community the accolades of the one true undefeated corps in STW...

[The Bear]

I use H4 ashis in low koku games with some success but over 5,000 koku i forget about it. i'd rather use the koku for low honor archers against the monk rushes.

I tried both high h4 to h8 ashis and yari sams as generals. The ashi taishos do tend to fold much more quicly, i guess it's the low morale.

Question: does anyone knows FOR SURE the effect (the stats) of adding honour to a unit. Does it add plus one to moral, attack and defense? Or what?

[Shuko]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Bear:
Question: does anyone knows FOR SURE the effect (the stats) of adding honour to a unit. Does it add plus one to moral, attack and defense? Or what?

You should ask Terazawa,send him an email or visit his site or whatever. He is very knowledgeable on this and is willing to help. I am grateful for the help he has given me,

[Nelson]

In an SP campaign you must use YA if you plan to move quickly and decisively. You can't afford enough better troops. Numbers count for a lot in the early game.

Anyone who eschews YA will have to take the time to build the infrastructure and collect enough koku to buy better troops while turtling up in the meantime. But beware. If the MP campaign ever appears we will see, as 16th century daimyos did, how important YA are in the hands of a good taisho...

[Vanya]

I hear what you say, Mr. Nelson! Indeed, you are right. I am currently developing a new weapon system for when that day comes: I am fattening my peasantry to the point they are considered 'grossly obese'. Then, I will sit on a slope an roll them down towards the enemy lines. And the regular infantry will follow behind. Kinda like sending a huge boulder to disrupt their lines, and send in a cruch force behind to clean up! This combined with the serf-chuka will prove invaluable in the hi-tech world of YA deployment.

[Maltz]

Playing Oda gives me a chance to use completely YA and SA for the first couple of years.
Not only the ronin provinces but also Mori was scared, running like a dog when I marched my army onto his lands.
I gues the key is to surround the enemy and shoot them, while they got irritated and attack comes to the chance of massive ashigaru flanks (the front is taken by YS). It is also important to lead the attack by the daimyo. I used my daimyo to conquer the whole west Japan, and he got rank 6 for that.

There were some batles that my army was inferior (in quality), so the defending AI took an aggressive approach. I just surround them using my arrows, and soon they succumb and even rank 6 Takeda Shigen run like a dog http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[evilc]

adding honor makes men bassicly better, that is quicker and better at fighting but it not that much to notice really unless say 2 units of same type attack each other, but 1 has 1 higher honor, then u see a difference

[Shuko]

anyway, we all use Y/A in different ways and have a bit of fun with them..........

I am going to cut their feet off before the next battle so the bastards don't run away so fast http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif, it also keeps the W/M and N/D amused and stops them leaving their positions because of impetuosity............

[Kraellin]

an interesting notion, shuko. i prefer to tie their ankles to my cav units and let their bouncing bodies act as maces against the enemy...the howling also has a morale effect on the horses and troops.

K.

[Shuko]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kraellin:
...the howling also has a morale effect on the horses and troops.

no good, it brings out too many strong wolves and the horses really resent the smell..........

[Vanya]

Quote Originally posted by Kraellin:
an interesting notion, shuko. i prefer to tie their ankles to my cav units and let their bouncing bodies act as maces against the enemy...the howling also has a morale effect on the horses and troops.
[/QUOTE]

Excellent Idea!!! Will add that to my repertoire...