Europa barbarorum Online Tournament!

[mountaingoat]

I just realized how important it is to reduce the per player budget to 30,000 mnai. There is a grave lack of light troops and skirmishers, and an overuse of med/heavy cav and high end nonelite infantry. Looking at the differences between civilized and noncivilized nations now, this becomes even clearer. Consider this my boycotting of the tournament until further notice. =]

Have fun all.


there should be some testing on what mnai would be good ,we should be reducing it though .. 30k maybe 25k ? who knows ... their is a major lacking of any light troops and skirmishers on the field.. hardly any levy except for pikes .

many factions really fight well with their light troops , but they are not really effective when going against all the heavy & elites.

[Maion Maroneios]

See this quote on one of their units(also read the ingame unit descriptions, more explaination there):

The Dugunthiz (the "Trusted" or "Capable" ones) is a unit of proud and experienced, "proven" warriors steeled by years of constant warfare and veterans of numerous conflicts, mostly tribal, but some of a larger scale. These men are hardened for battle and unlikely to flee from conflict, and are trained through long experience to work in close or open formation, and even the shieldwall.

These weren't your every day hunters or farmers, those were of a whole other class, the Frije class. Point is they had a standing army.

Berserkers aren't a myth really, we have proof for them, just like for the animal warriors(ancestor of berserker) which are shown on Roman drawings and which they did talk about.

First of all you suddenly started comparing your everyday Germanic with Hellenic elites, I'm simply comparing your every day ones with themselves.



In other words you just wish to follow the steriotype which has been set about barbarians and refuse to believe the information which says that they were disciplined. And on occasions even more then the Romans?

You seem to be missings some brain cells as well. Which part from trained from youth, and having to proove yourself doesn't make for a great warrior? Germanics also had professional soldiers, not training as hard as the Spartans in all probability though saying it was just a bunch of charging barbarians with no order alla hollywood. I would expect you to follow the evidence instead of believing the hollywood.

And I never said that Germanics were better soldiers then the Hellenes, I just said that they weren't the orderless hollywood troops you make them out to be. Also when the Romans faced the Cimbri they formed up in battalions, yep definately a wild orderless charging mess of filthy barbarians.
Constant warfare was something an average Hellenic soldier experienced as well. Ever heard of the warring city-states, especially before the Rise of Macedon? Prove me the Germanic had a standard army. Plus, prove me that Berskerkers existed and could hold down and entire army on their own. PLEASE, and I though my Dutch brethren were down-to-Earth people.

I don't follow any stereotype, I just want to show you that discipline and mental strength wins over crazed frenzy and pure muscle force. Plus, I never said they were not capable warriors. I just said that they could never be compared to Hellenic and Roman elites. More importantly; the average Hellenic or Roman army was (IMO) better than a Germanic one. Both in therms of quality, as well as obvious military technology.

They weren't orderless, that much is clear. They were quite disciplines, and they had professional troops. This is more than a "brain beats muscle" debate, were you obviously seem to have a fondness of the muscle.

Maion

[antisocialmunky]

there should be some testing on what mnai would be good ,we should be reducing it though .. 30k maybe 25k ? who knows ... their is a major lacking of any light troops and skirmishers on the field.. hardly any levy except for pikes .

many factions really fight well with their light troops , but they are not really effective when going against all the heavy & elites.

5k Reduciton would be enough.

[Maris]

Hello everybody...I think that we should do another rules for this tourney...
I think we should play at 30000 mnai (maybe 25000 as mountaingoat says in one of his posts)
elite units: max 6....all foot archers that costs more than 1000 mnai shold be considered as elite units(as mountaingoat says in other post)
cav units: max 5 , max 3 heavy
missile units: max 6 ,including missile cav, peltasts and slingers
STEPPE RULES:
max 20 cav, max 5 heavy cav
i think 10 missile units are more than enough , including missile cav.
and if we will still play at 40000 mnai ..we should make rules for hellenic factions.

[antisocialmunky]

You won't be able to afford anything decent at all at 25K or even 30K. 3 Units of good Heavy Cav alone is about $13500. Why don't you actually go and test these setting before you over-nerf all the civilized factions. It is almost balanced right now anyways, we just need to tweak it toward barbarians a little more.


Still no answer about the medium cav question.

[Fluvius Camillus]

All these balancing.... The tourney hasnt even started yet and I fear it will never if people keep whining that some are overpowered/underpowered....

We are fighting on different kinds of terrain so it should be equal, if some troops are better than others, thats just a fact, historical correct. Not something you should belance out...

~Fluvius

[Maris]

historically speaking the "civilized" factions had more gold than "barbarian" factions...should we give "civilized" factions more mnai?..just in case if they cant beat those barbarians with 6 phalanx....

[Phalanx300]

Constant warfare was something an average Hellenic soldier experienced as well. Ever heard of the warring city-states, especially before the Rise of Macedon? Prove me the Germanic had a standard army. Plus, prove me that Berskerkers existed and could hold down and entire army on their own. PLEASE, and I though my Dutch brethren were down-to-Earth people.

I don't follow any stereotype, I just want to show you that discipline and mental strength wins over crazed frenzy and pure muscle force. Plus, I never said they were not capable warriors. I just said that they could never be compared to Hellenic and Roman elites. More importantly; the average Hellenic or Roman army was (IMO) better than a Germanic one. Both in therms of quality, as well as obvious military technology.

They weren't orderless, that much is clear. They were quite disciplines, and they had professional troops. This is more than a "brain beats muscle" debate, were you obviously seem to have a fondness of the muscle.

Maion

Once again, I never said Germanic soldiers would make better soldiers, just saying they wont make worse soldiers. Hellenes had superior armour which probably would have made a big difference.

And are you now assuming that this big Spartan fan knowns nothing of the Greeks? :2thumbsup:


Plus, prove me that Berskerkers existed and could hold down and entire army on their own.

You never heard of that one case where one Berserker stopped an army from crossing a bridge? With the army eventually killing him by attacking from below the bridge?

And animal warriors did exist, they are in EB, as those warrior with wolf caps.

http://books.google.nl/books?id=9bIdOjvocwwC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=Germanic+Wolf+warriors&source=bl&ots=U54GCcYEXN&sig=cCHTG4pwf9W0ty7RPPreNOodA5s&hl=nl&ei=ECklSq_OOISc-Aainf3WBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPP1,M1


I don't follow any stereotype, I just want to show you that discipline and mental strength wins over crazed frenzy and pure muscle force.

Exacly, the Germanics had this god of honourable warfare and this god of pure frenzy and slaughter. With the honourable one, Teiwaz, being favourite. Kind of like Athena and Ares.


I just said that they could never be compared to Hellenic and Roman elites.

I definately think they could, being veterans from warfare since childhood and learned to fight in the shieldwall. The most elite Germanic warriors would end up as bodyguards of the Germanic warlords, or perhaps turning warlord themselves. They can definately be compared as soldiers, with the Romans and Greeks basicly having the better armour.


They weren't orderless, that much is clear. They were quite disciplines, and they had professional troops. This is more than a "brain beats muscle" debate, were you obviously seem to have a fondness of the muscle.

One cannot do anything without the other, balance must be found. :smash:


PLEASE, and I though my Dutch brethren were down-to-Earth people.

I see, so believing Hollywood would make me down-to-Earth, and if I remember correctly your 1/2 Barbarian as well :clown:.

[Maion Maroneios]

*Sigh*

Once again, Phalanx, you miss my point. You still seem to support brawn beats brain. Spartans had both, a lot of both. As did any other elite soldier trained years for war, not simply grizzled. But actually gained the secrets of killing without even the slightest remorse, as well as learnt how to cripple a much more powerful opponent wilst seemingly being weaker themselves.

And I am half Dutch, but that doesn't mean anything when I have been raised from when I was born (in Zaanstad, by the way) and raised in Greece. Greek education, Greek way of life and Greek thinking has made me consider myself 100& Greek. I do love the Netherlands as well, I just feel a bit out of place when I go there. As if I don't actually belong there, you know.

Anyway, this has gone way too far. Sorry for sounding aggressive sometimes, it seems I have not yet understood that some people just believe what they believe and can't be persuaded to change their point of view.

Maion

[Phalanx300]

Once again, Phalanx, you miss my point. You still seem to support brawn beats brain. Spartans had both, a lot of both. As did any other elite soldier trained years for war, not simply grizzled. But actually gained the secrets of killing without even the slightest remorse, as well as learnt how to cripple a much more powerful opponent wilst seemingly being weaker themselves.

I support that one needs both. Technique while usefull and giving a advantage wont stop a giant beating a midget for example :sweatdrop:.


And I am half Dutch, but that doesn't mean anything when I have been raised from when I was born (in Zaanstad, by the way) and raised in Greece. Greek education, Greek way of life and Greek thinking has made me consider myself 100& Greek. I do love the Netherlands as well, I just feel a bit out of place when I go there. As if I don't actually belong there, you know.

Well thats a way to look at it, as far as I'm concerned if you have some Dutch background you can be considered Dutch (A few 100.000s have a Indonesian ancestor). And I can understand it, we aren't that much like the Greeks.

God created the earth, the Dutch created the Netherlands. :2thumbsup:


Anyway, this has gone way too far. Sorry for sounding aggressive sometimes, it seems I have not yet understood that some people just believe what they believe and can't be persuaded to change their point of view.

It goes both ways I gues.

[Maion Maroneios]

Just one final thing: Giant beating a midget? The average height of a Germanic warrior wasn't that much larger than a Greek one, you know. Plus, as you said, balance is the key. The Greek warriors weren't trained to be philosphers and 100% mentality, you know. Spartans were trained in both, to the extreme also.

Maion

[Phalanx300]

Just one final thing: Giant beating a midget? The average height of a Germanic warrior wasn't that much larger than a Greek one, you know. Plus, as you said, balance is the key. The Greek warriors weren't trained to be philosphers and 100% mentality, you know. Spartans were trained in both, to the extreme also.

Maion

I didn't ment it that way! Just ment it literally. :sweatdrop:

[Duguntz]

Just one final thing: Giant beating a midget? The average height of a Germanic warrior wasn't that much larger than a Greek one, you know. Plus, as you said, balance is the key. The Greek warriors weren't trained to be philosphers and 100% mentality, you know. Spartans were trained in both, to the extreme also.

Maion

oh oh, i don't wanna interupt the debat, but on this maion, I must proove you wrong. On every description made by contemporains that fought or lived with them, Gauls AND Germanic people were indeed, as described by Caesar in Bella Gallica, very huge, tall and muscular men, finely built in addition to be born killing machines. ''Exclusivly bred for war'' were the words used by Caesar) (the words killing machines aren't those used by Caesar, but you got the point hmmm!). The same apply for Germanic warriors employed by him, during that same war.

Cheers!

[Maion Maroneios]

Yeah right, but I just didn't like the "midget vs giant" comparison very much.

Maion

[Phalanx300]

Yeah right, but I just didn't like the "midget vs giant" comparison very much.

Maion

Right. I don't have any reason to lie about that do I? If I intended it as such I would have said it like that :whip:.

[Duguntz]

Lol! ok! I can understand!

anyway that is a debat between two fans of their people, addicted and patriotic. None will make the other change idea! it's like to try to tell me that English were better than Amerindians when they came to Canada... Argument good enough to make me start a fight!!! :laugh4:

Cheers!

[Maion Maroneios]

Right. I don't have any reason to lie about that do I? If I intended it as such I would have said it like that :whip:.
You seriously believe in what you stated before? Seriously? Because if you are, I think I have been wasting my time from the start.

Maion

[Phalanx300]

You seriously believe in what you stated before? Seriously? Because if you are, I think I have been wasting my time from the start.

Maion

If you just keep believing Hollywood then you have indeed. I suggest you read a bit from that link I posted earlier.

[Maion Maroneios]

If you just keep believing Hollywood then you have indeed. I suggest you read a bit from that link I posted earlier.
Answer my question please, Phalanx. Seriously, answer me. Did you believe in what you said?

Maion

[Phalanx300]

Answer my question please, Phalanx. Seriously, answer me. Did you believe in what you said?

Maion

About the Germans having order and discipline, yes ofcourse, there are things to support it and basicly no reason besides Hollywood to stop believing it. :sweatdrop:

[Maion Maroneios]

I didn't mean that, I agreed about that with you from the start. And forget Hollywood, nobody speaks about any Hollywood. Do you really believe comparing a Hellenic elite to a Germanic warrior would be like comparing a "midget" to a "giant"? And that the former would get beaten to a pulp?

Maion

[Phalanx300]

I didn't mean that, I agreed about that with you from the start. And forget Hollywood, nobody speaks about any Hollywood. Do you really believe comparing a Hellenic elite to a Germanic warrior would be like comparing a "midget" to a "giant"? And that the former would get beaten to a pulp?

Maion

Ofcourse not, how many times do I have to repeat it, I didn't ment it that way :shame: and I never said that the Hellenic soldier would get beaten in such a fight.

[Maion Maroneios]

OK then, I was worried for a moment you actually meant it. Actually, now that I think of it, I believe we are saying the same things with different ways that seem to be opposite ideas.

Maion

[Phalanx300]

OK then, I was worried for a moment you actually meant it. Actually, now that I think of it, I believe we are saying the same things with different ways that seem to be opposite ideas.

Maion

Wouldn't be the first time that happened to me. :sweatdrop:

[Fluvius Camillus]

Guys, I got it at once.

Phalanx was referring to the balance of muscle and mind....

A midget (A MIDGET FROM FANTASY, it is not a comparison with someone) may have excellent technique and he is a lot smarter than the giant. But still the giant would squash the midget anyway with muscle power.

I had to point it out, it lead to a severe misunderstanding...:yes:

~Fluvius

[Maris]

Hi everybody...I just played a 2v1 battle some minutes ago....I was alone and my enemies were Mithick666 and Sir Karati.....I played as AS and they were Makedonia........it was very exciting
https://img522.imageshack.us/img522/4615/2v1victory.th.png (https://img522.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2v1victory.png)
and the link of replay is right here:
http://files.filefront.com/greatbattle2v1rpy/;13843063;/fileinfo.html

I hope that everything works...
Cheers

[vartan]

25-30k will illustrate better use of light troops...obviously :yes:

[Phalanx300]

Yep Flavius that was basicly my point, you say it much better though. :sweatdrop:




25-30k will illustrate better use of light troops...obviously

Yes though going below 30k might be taking it more extreme then necessary. I think that 30k or 35k might be best for better balance, we need players to test different money levels though to find a good balance of units.

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

so, the rules are change, in my mind 30 k is the max amount for haven t unbalanced battles...
that limited of spamming unit like hetairoi, gaesatae, or other devasting units.... lol
35 k ? no too money.... :wall:

[Phalanx300]

Rules aren't changed, for now, just saying we should test some different money levels to find a good balance for the tourney.

[Maion Maroneios]

I agree with making various tests of new limits. Basically, we can test with 30,000, then with 35,000 and in the end we can, according to the battle statistics and results, make a final decision about the mnai limit and maybe even set the final rules of the Tournament before we start this.

Maion

[darius_d]

Please people consider limit for long pikes - max 5 pikes in game with max 2 elite pikes.
With the balancing created in EB, nearly all battles seems to be long pikes engagements, which is at the expense of the show.

[antisocialmunky]

ATTENTION PLEASE

I've done some research and THE GAME HAS NO MEDIUM CAVALRY CLASSIFICATION.

So, rely only on the description because that's all we have. Good day, that is all. Correct me if I'm mistaken but if Prodromoi are classified as 'Heavy' then something is horribly wrong with my game. Anyways, just so everyone knows.

[vartan]

Please people consider limit for long pikes - max 5 pikes in game with max 2 elite pikes.
With the balancing created in EB, nearly all battles seems to be long pikes engagements, which is at the expense of the show.

That's why you make a maximum limit of 30k for each player unless you're looking for a fun unbalanced bloodbath.

[DaciaJC]

Hi everybody...I just played a 2v1 battle some minutes ago....I was alone and my enemies were Mithick666 and Sir Karati.....I played as AS and they were Makedonia........it was very exciting
https://img522.imageshack.us/img522/4615/2v1victory.th.png (https://img522.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2v1victory.png)
and the link of replay is right here:
http://files.filefront.com/greatbattle2v1rpy/;13843063;/fileinfo.html

I hope that everything works...
Cheers

Very nice game, prieten. :2thumbsup:

But after viewing the replay, I have a general question (for all Hellenic-faction players): it appeared that in that phalangite vs. phalangite battle, the defender had a clear advantage. Is this usually the case?

[gamegeek2]

Shouldn't the Qarthadastim be allowed to have more Iberian units?

[Mithick666]

Very nice game, prieten.

But after viewing the replay, I have a general question (for all Hellenic-faction players): it appeared that in that phalangite vs. phalangite battle, the defender had a clear advantage. Is this usually the case?


gamegeek2 it was a very bad battle from the attackers we have many mistakes, it because Sir Karati
never have played whit phalanx. in some times i have seen other players to attack whit phalanx and they were the winners.

[antisocialmunky]

Well, I can tell you this, Baktria is well nerfed at 35K. They don't have the mid range assault infantry to get the job done between armorless Indians and poor flank guards.

I think that a phalangite limit of 6-8 might be a good way to start off.

[mountaingoat]

so after playing 2v1 agaisnt mithick and vartan , somehting was mentioned about phalanx ... i had a victory but when using the phalanx , i would use them to engage in melee ( run quickly ) then hit formation (to get the pikes out).. should this be allowed? not sure


btw if anyone wants to play 2v1 i usually play it out like this.

the team with two can only field 10 units each , 3 elites , 3 archers and 1 cav max

kind of makes it more even

[Duguntz]

Well, I can tell you this, Baktria is well nerfed at 35K. They don't have the mid range assault infantry to get the job done between armorless Indians and poor flank guards.

I think that a phalangite limit of 6-8 might be a good way to start off.

Balance between armoured and armoured troops? Insane! play as sweboz and you'll see what you call ''balance'' between unarmored and armored troops. 5 pikes is just fine, MAXIMUM! Otherwise what, for us, poor nude dudes, the only (and still hardly made) way to rout or destroy a pike unit is to outflank and charge from rear. Give too many pike (let's say 6 or 8 like you'd like) and we'd have to abandon our center line and put everything on the flank due to an infinite line of pike in order to be able to flank correctly, result, our center is broken, heavy cav got in there, and squash us from behind. Result 2, too many pikes equal victory ALMOST sure for pike player, and not only unbalance the outcome of the battle but the also fun that non-pike-based faction player wou'd have. I didn't won often, it's true, but I always had a lot of fun. Now although, it beginning to piss me off seriously when I see that I've to fight a 8 or 10 pike long front (and not levies hmmm! 3 elite with the pezetaroi and other monster like those) flanked by hetairoi and other Catanks. obviously, even a great tactician (and I mean GREAT), would actually hstand a chance to beat that with barbarians.

one other thing that piss me off... Somebody told on the forum that yeah, Hellenistic armies are really stronger in EB because it was so historical, so Hellenes should have overhelming adventage because it's historical like that. that's like saying, well, you're not hellene player so you should loose because it's historical like that... that is utter bullshit (and I didn't ment to insult anybody) This tournament was based on the primary objective to all have fun together. In that order, I don't say to weaken hellenes, but to tweak the tournament to give equal chances whatever the faction you play, because OBVOUSLY (and it's not the fault of everybody, the game balance is like that) Tide is always in favour of pikes! But, in the woods (and I mean forest, not 3 trees in the middle of the map), in wich pike player never host or never join! (Never isn't the right word, but, let say very very rarely)

[antisocialmunky]

I agree somewhat with your phalanx problems as well as understand how frustrating it can be. But its not impossible. I think we should do a few things:

-Limit 4 cav, 2 heavy
-Limit 4 missiles rather than 6 but exclude light infantry from the missiles category.

The Greek Factions have a little too much cav and I personally think that 4 total is enough. Missile spam is highly iritating and given the choice between missiles and light infantry, most people go with archers or slingers if you give them the choice rather than light infantry.

Well at 35-30K, Baktria cannot seriously contest its flanks because it doesn't have the infantry for it. If you don't believe me, just try it. Baktria has what at the 1000-2000 price point for infantry? Indian Levies, Parthian Levies, Baktrian Light Infantry, Longbowmen, Light Hoplites, Thureophoroi, Eastern Axemen? All poorly armored or missile units(have skirmish). Compare that to Agrianians, Thracians, regular Hoplites, Celto-Hellens, Celto-Thracians, various axemen? None of which Baktria can easily counter.

[mountaingoat]

at 30k we might start to see people either not bringing full stack armies or lots of light inf.


edit* how are the teams going to work? is it faction only ? how many per faction & is there a limit? ,can we have different factions in one team?

[Phalanx300]

at 30k we might start to see people either not bringing full stack armies or lots of light inf.

We would see more balance between elite, medium and light units. Since pure elite armies were extremely rare and in large armies it was never purely elite.

[Maion Maroneios]

Well, have you seen any pure elite army with the 40,000 limit?

Maion

[Duguntz]

Well, have you seen any pure elite army with the 40,000 limit?

Maion

only Elite, Hardly possible! but only heavy, yeah, I did, and it's as much (A)historical than only Elites!

[Duguntz]

With a 30k limit, everybody would HAVE to field light and levies, maybe not majoritarly, but in considerable part (let's say 20 to 30% of the army, for more expensive faction), wich is historicaly accurate, and force somebody to use different technique than only to pin his opponant on his infinite line of pike!

[Duguntz]

I agree somewhat with your phalanx problems as well as understand how frustrating it can be. But its not impossible. I think we should do a few things:

-Limit 4 cav, 2 heavy
-Limit 4 missiles rather than 6 but exclude light infantry from the missiles category.

The Greek Factions have a little too much cav and I personally think that 4 total is enough. Missile spam is highly iritating and given the choice between missiles and light infantry, most people go with archers or slingers if you give them the choice rather than light infantry.

Well at 35-30K, Baktria cannot seriously contest its flanks because it doesn't have the infantry for it. If you don't believe me, just try it. Baktria has what at the 1000-2000 price point for infantry? Indian Levies, Parthian Levies, Baktrian Light Infantry, Longbowmen, Light Hoplites, Thureophoroi, Eastern Axemen? All poorly armored or missile units(have skirmish). Compare that to Agrianians, Thracians, regular Hoplites, Celto-Hellens, Celto-Thracians, various axemen? None of which Baktria can easily counter.

I actually think that... it's a great idea really! 4 cav dosen't forbide the hellene to do their cherished Hammer and anvil, it's preventing the spamming of ''medium'' cavalry with 35 charge! And 4 archers are way enough, as long as missiles ''skirmishers'' are considered as light inf, instead of missile.

That would rightly balance the game without weakening seriously anyone.

A big thank you for antisocialmunky!!! :yes:

[mountaingoat]

true , i do not see how daoi/Komatai & Mezenai can be considered missile units

[Phalanx300]

Because they use missle weapons as a main weapon? :sweatdrop:

Anyways, if all you guys feel like changing Peltastai like units to light infantry I'm fine with that. We need to hear some more opinion though.:whip:

[Apázlinemjó]

Because they use missle weapons as a main weapon? :sweatdrop:

Anyways, if all you guys feel like changing Peltastai like units to light infantry I'm fine with that. We need to hear some more opinion though.:whip:

Peltastai like units are light infantry and skirmishers, which shouldn't be in the missile category since they have very few "ammo" and are quite capable against levys and medium units in melee.

[IrishHitman]

If we're going to lower the limit on the basis of historical accuracy, then we might as well just have set armies.

[Maion Maroneios]

Irish. I've debated about the negative effects that a lower mnai limit will bring forth, though people seem to believe otherwise. Especially those that comfortably choose factions with cheaper armies, or generally those that tend to get beaten by our armies. OK I'm being too general about this, but many still neglect some facts that a lower mnai limit will cause for Hellenistic factions.

Anyway, let them see that this won't work. The only way of persuading them is going to be if they see this for themselves. Though we should put up a good show for them.

Maion

[IrishHitman]

Irish. I've debated about the negative effects that a lower mnai limit will bring forth, though people seem to believe otherwise. Especially those that comfortably choose factions with cheaper armies, or generally those that tend to get beaten by our armies. OK I'm being too general about this, but many still neglect some facts that a lower mnai limit will cause for Hellenistic factions.

Anyway, let them see that this won't work. The only way of persuading them is going to be if they see this for themselves. Though we should put up a good show for them.

Maion

If they don't see a catastrophic drop in victories for whatever reason, they'll impose their limit on us.

[Maion Maroneios]

Yes, but that doesn't mean we are going to perform horrible just to prove to the rest this rule should not be implemented.

I say we do what we can, and if we see great (or at least considerable) differences with the battles fought with the 40,000 mnai limit, we can re-discuss the rules with some clear evidence. Maybe then a voting procejure will be due, and when some other minor issues are sorted out we can finally begin with the Tournament itself.

Maion

[HunGeneral]

I would not suggest lowering the Money limit either. Exactly because Hellenic Factions simply have more expensive troops. Sure there troops are often better then others, but still the other faction could use the extra money to more of there better units.

EDIT: By the way how are we going to play out battles between teams with a different number of Players? (like say if Romani had 5 and Ptolieds had 2 how would that be handled?)

We should not overhurry this, the better we make out the rules the better it will get. (pluss we could use some more players...)

[mountaingoat]

Because they use missle weapons as a main weapon? :sweatdrop:

oh hardly :no:, they do a ok with a few spear throws , then they engage in melee and as mentioned are good to attack light and medium troops :2thumbsup:

[antisocialmunky]

@Irish - The 4 cav limit was part of RvG and worked well. You don't even use 4 cav, just 3 Companions in most games anyways against those hairy undermensch.

@Goat - We've always classified 'missile' units as units with the skirmish ability(So Romans aren't missile). I think that light infantry should not be considered missile units though hence the proposal.

@Hun - The problem is that as long as the Hellenic factions can fill out their 20 sized armies, they will probably outnumber their opponents since the average hellenic army size is bigger due to 240 size phalangites. The largest non-phalangite groups are 200 and often those are mostly levy types. I had toyed with the idea of limitting hellenic factions to 18 units rather than 20. That would make a big difference since you couldn't prevent a few units form getting round those flanks.

Afterall units sizes go:

Any Phalangite > Levy > Standard > Elites

If the barbarians had their unit increased by 1 level(200->240) but kept at the same price point, then it would a little more balanced

[IrishHitman]

@Irish - The 4 cav limit was part of RvG and worked well. You don't even use 4 cav, just 3 Companions in most games anyways against those hairy undermensch.

I'm referring to mnai, not cav limits.

[vartan]

If the barbarians had their unit increased by 1 level(200->240) but kept at the same price point, then it would a little more balanced

In any case, something needs to be done to balance the unbalanced...

[Mithick666]

This was a Epic Battle Romany(spiritusdilutus and Mithck) vs Sweboz(Phalanx300 and Apaliznemjo)

the replay http://files.filefront.com/Teuteburgorpy/;13849910;/fileinfo.html

https://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4823/teutoburgo.jpg

[Apázlinemjó]

This was a Epic Battle Romany(spiritusdilutus and Mithck) vs Sweboz(Phalanx300 and Apaliznemjo)

the replay http://files.filefront.com/Teuteburgorpy/;13849910;/fileinfo.html

https://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4823/teutoburgo.jpg

Yeah, it was a good call to use your cavalries together against me.

[Knight of Heaven]

Heres a battle replay from a 2v1, me with Mithick(romanoi)v Khan(Pontus), and how pontus lose the chariots before the battles actualy starts.We use those 2v1 rules, each one only had max 3 elites and only 10 units max, i dint brought any cav but Mithick brought 3 with the general included....
well the battle was in the woods, but Khan had 4 elites phalanx and alot heavy inf. and 2 cretan archers and 2 cav, also the 2 chariots. Still was fun i only had 4 cohorts and manage to play phalanx into the midle of my men while i hold the line. here it his
http://files.filefront.com/Romavpontusrpy/;13855790;/fileinfo.html

here some screens

The pontic army,and 2 cav hiden somewere in those woods
https://img193.imageshack.us/img193/1196/ponticarmy.jpg
the general is runnig from fire arrows :help: omg
https://img200.imageshack.us/img200/8373/chariots.jpg
phalanx in the left/Midle flank powned
https://img200.imageshack.us/img200/8941/phalanxalone.jpg
Elite Phalanx doomed
https://img200.imageshack.us/img200/6278/phalanxdooomed.jpg
Elite Phalanx shouldnt folow in trough that gap in the midle:no:
https://img200.imageshack.us/img200/2476/phalanxfolow.jpg

[Duguntz]

Hey guys, the forum's back from the dead! so what's the news for the tournament? when will it begin officially? phalanx300, you're kills were great against the Romans! a real Sweboz indeed!

[Maion Maroneios]

Indeed, the forums (seem to be) are back. As for the Tournament itself, if you take a look further up you'll see we are going to do some test battles with 30-40,000 mnai and see if this works out.

Maion

[HunGeneral]

Good luck to the tests people.

I'm afraid I'm out for while - my comp is going crazy again - must be some kind of Hardware problem... until it's working normal again I can't play EB (now thats bad news for me :-(

I hope to get it fixed soon. I will however keep my eyes on the tournament - hopefully I can participate when it begins...

[darius_d]

On hamachi EBOT01 is full, inactive users please leave the network.

[antisocialmunky]

Can someone kick all inactives in EBOT01?

My old nick is now invalid. So kick it. I had to reformat my computer and hamachi doesn't do account control at all.

[vartan]

http://www.tunngle.net/en/

[JinandJuice]

Interesting. It definitely allows for account management, but it looks just like a beefed up version of Hamachi, hence requiring more resources. The "Highest possible Gamer performance" doesn't really say anything either.

[antisocialmunky]

LOL, I make 1 thread and post in the EB Online and get no responses, but Vartan posts a link and gets some feed back. *roll eyes*

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=117733

The only real advantage is that its 255 room limit.

[Duguntz]

HEEEEYYYY! I think i had the idea that will make everybody happy in that ''phalanx'' debat! An idea hat leaves phalanx with all their adventage in the open, but to counter it, will make them live hell else were... so like in the real live, they better have army suited for terrain not to get butchered...
OK, i know, it is a post I already posted, but while devloping it i tough it was better fitted for here... There was a debat against : the exploit of a phalanx, by charging head on the pikes, with decent armour, any good swordman could succesfully disrupt their formation, the, enter an AP unit in the hole and byebye pike phalanx in... 0 min 23 sec... and honestly, even as a civilisation hater (sweboz (yeah)) I can understand that it's frustrating... so to make everybody happy I tought of those tweaks, wich dosen't allow any ''cheat'' form nobody, but also makes the battle more fun and challenging, (of corse, that demand a fairplay and honesty by the players, as it's like a kind of houserule... for tournament...)

So to break a Phalanx from front is cheating? let say that I agree... But what about that, to compare cheat with cheat : In danse woods.. your pikes stay in a perfect formation, as impenetrable than in the open!!! (and I unfortunatly tasted it myself many times!) yeah, that's the fault of the system, I know it, but just as to charge in phalanx with good enough swordmen is also the fault of the system... when you sprang an ambush and you wait far in the woods and hope for a disruption, Dang, how disapointing it is... Because for the sake of NOT cheating, yeah, i hope that the woods would disrupt any pike formation, and more than that, physicly make it impossible to enter a decent formation... So guys, here's the deal : I'm agree with you and start campaining against, and forbiding in my games the use of the system and exploit against phalanx-pike. But on the other side, pikes do not use ''phalanx'' ability in danse woods... too much? think about a pike of 21 foot in the forest and tell me if it's too much... I think it's fair for everybody, no cheat and no cheat, and that way neither player would exploit the system...

I know not everybody will agree, but I think it's a good compromise, leaving everybody with the advantage he should have, and, only my opinion, makes the battle somewhat more fun. Any opinion guys?

[Maion Maroneios]

any good swordman could succesfully disrupt their formation, the, enter an AP unit in the hole and byebye pike phalanx in... 0 min 23 sec..
Sigh... Could I see some proof of this please? You are again talking about personal oppinions and rather bold statements without any evidence to speak of. I don't know any occassion in which non-phalangites penentrated a pikewall without disrupting the formations first by using uneven terrain, or pilae/heavy javelins in general.

I do agree with you that the phalanx is too strong. It hold out too much, while it keeps a relatively disciplined formation when fighting in woods. Plus they are too impervious against projectiles from the front, I believe. But that doesn't mean I'm going to allow the phalanx exploit to be implemented. No sir.

As for this "idea", let me just tell you that its almost impossible to keep an eye out for the entire army all the time. Usually, I just neglect my pikemen when they engage and focus on the flanks which requires serious micromanagement and synchronisation. So basically I can't go and turn the phalanx formation on and off all the time when figting anywhere.

Maion

[Knight of Heaven]

Dugunz with respect i belive you dont understand what phalanx exploit is... its not charging trough pike from the front that you can do it, with your own peril, and not a good tactic i might add even with good swordsman, or spartans if you want.
The phalanx exploit can be done against any unit not only phalanx, the problem is the phalanx is more vulnerable, becouse of their week spots in the flanks and rear.
This exploit is not a tactic its something its impossible to do in real life, is walking trough a unit ignoring the enemy unit, so the enemy units becomes surrounded. this never happens in real life. and i belive it never happen with Medieval 2 TW also, now the only times i do this exploit is sometimes in defending sieges on walls, becouse units dont work so nice on walls...but i shouldnt do it, i cheat on walls :( lol
As for the forest men, what i can tell you.... there is space betwenn the trees..so... just stop charging against the pikes from the front, you ill never win , i never win. From the front a phalanx is invencible, but from rear and from flanks they die like flies. and they also suck in terrains with great inclinations. Want a tip to destroy hellenic armies??? destroy helenic cav and flanking forces first.Alone phalanxes dont have much use, most of the times. This exploit i belive need a diferent name then "phalanx exploit" becouse you can do it against any unit...so.

[Maion Maroneios]

That was, finally, a good and reasonable post to see.

Maion

[Duguntz]

guys you missed my point... i was speaking about phalanx exploit. IN GAME, not in life! I know you don't charge on pike common! but I was seeking a way to stop exploiting the system in game, as I see so many post of pikes addicted that hate that kind of cheat. I was talking about the ''walk threw the phalanx without caring'' thing. not about real life tactics! It's just to slow down the cheating and to have more fun!
and yeah, there'S space between trees... but put a tree between each pikes (or even 1 tree per 2-3 pikes) and you'll found the phalanx much less effective! To pass a pike between trees, of corse you can... to move a whole phalanx unit, it's completly something else! Think about it pal!
anyway, i knew the idea would not be popular with hellenes players, as they'd get butchered in the woods! just as we get buchered in the open as barbarians! Fairness never makes everybody happy!
So guys, i'm trying to find another way than lowering mnai limit, so everybody is happy... And I still think that the idea is a great one!!!

[Maion Maroneios]

I alreay proposed the 3-phase battles for Tournament matches.

Say player X is chosen to play against player Y. First player X attacks player Y in his [Y] scenario of choise. Then, payer Y attacks in a scenario chosen by the other [X]. If you get 1 victory each, you move to a third battle with a scenraio chosen randomly.

Maion

[antisocialmunky]

Perhaps we should require that all phalangites must stay out of defense mode in forests. That usually totally jacks up the formation. :-p

Though it does make them super ridiculous uncontrollable killing machines. I haven't even seen anyone use this so I can't help but feel that this is trying to solve a non-existant problem.

The tournement is fine as it is and the 35K games I've tested play out quite well. 30K is a little biased towards those with massive cheap hordes.

[Duguntz]

Perhaps we should require that all phalangites must stay out of defense mode in forests. That usually totally jacks up the formation. :-p

.

Seconded... for pikes as well in forest. i mean... realisticly, for all hellene players, you really think that holding a phalanx with sarrisas in the woods EFFECTIVLY is possible? I dream to se an ambush of phalanx only once in my life (that was sarcasm!)!!! Be realist on that point, yeah, pikes get butchered when in the forest. If you don't like the idea, use other troops when you fight on a forested land!!!

[Knight of Heaven]

this is not true i beat barbarians armies in forests with épirus, and with phalanxes, you just need more micromanagenment, forest bonus dont have much efect if you fight a phalanx from the front, the thing is in forest is more hard to keep track becouse you cant see.
Well dugunz for instance phalanx exploit in real life dont exist, its only a game issue, and if you are defending it , then you dont mind i use this exploit on your units?? they route too its not a matter of being a phalanx.
I belive you still dont understand what i said, charging to pikes could happen and if you turn off guard mode, they will charge the phalanx,but this isnt a exploit this is not cheat you can atack from the front charging.
What we are talking about is diferent, exploit is with when you order units to move fast, behond the enemy unit, trough enemy unit so they ill become surrounded they do not atack just run trough units. well im sorry but this is ridiculous.
About the woods i realy dont agree,a unit sometimes gets disrrupted by a tree in a mildle or something like rocks. i belive is very hard to win with phalanxe in the woods...its jus i dont understant why people charge naked people in to a wall of pikes.
the romans beat the makedonian phalanxes by avoiding then, and useing the fast moving manipules to flanked then its matter of doing the same with other troops..why do we need to engage phalanx?? to hold then there?? lol thats doing what they want. i have a question, when in campaing do you see AI charging pikes from the front??
I dont, using alex engine i see AI avoiding then and they only charge when i have my phalangities with standard formation, with their pikes in the air...so this tells me something.
I belive holding a phalanx in the woods is possible, very possible,and the trees only help what is hard is using the "hammer" in the woods using cavalry efective in the woods.
what i give you the point is, we seing to manny phalanx in an army and army shouldnt have so manny, we should restrict their number we dont need 6. 4 will be ideal i belive,this if we are going for most historical armies and in the first post says but just a sugestion.

[vartan]

I believe it is quite ridiculous how phalanxes hold up in the woods. Very, very unbelievable. Just check it for yourselves.

@antisocialmunky: I think people should just dump Hamachi if you really take a look at Tunngle. I mean, 255 room limit with automatic removal of the user from network once you quit the program? Hamachi doesn't even come close.

[Duguntz]

Vartan... i'm not sure i understand your last post... You say it's impossible to maintain a phalanx in order in the wood? well, even no need of historical proofs to know it's impossible! Go in the forest of northen germania (or Canada, as they've the same type of vegetation... a bit, but canada's more thick forest!) and even two men have trouble to stand alongside because of the number of trees... I'm not speaking about the pseudo forest of greece of Italia.. real forest, with more than 10 trees! show me how possibli a phalanx can physicly stay in order in that, I really wanna see! well, I'd laugh a lot to see men in armor and shield with 21 foot sarrisas in good order trying to advense in danse woods... boys, i know you don't wanna loose your pike adventage, but don't be ridiculous neither! and Knight... if not running threw (this stupid) but running beside phalanx rapidly to fall behing them with our AP units is cheating because you find yourself, then, of corse, using archers against naked units is also cheating because naked dudes appear to be as powerless against arrows as a phalanx from behind! I don't see why I should loose so many men by pining your phalanx first (as no men are armoured in my army)... if your phalanx isn't fast enough to turn in 2 second their sarrisas and defend their surrounded flank, that's just FAIR as light armoured unit should be a whole lot faster than a phalanx!

[Knight of Heaven]

and Knight... if not running threw (this stupid) but running beside phalanx rapidly to fall behing them with our AP units is cheating because you find yourself, then, of corse, using archers against naked units is also cheating because naked dudes appear to be as powerless against arrows as a phalanx from behind! I don't see why I should loose so many men by pining your phalanx first (as no men are armoured in my army)...
No you are wrong using archers to kill naked people or slingers in the back of phalanx to kill then isnt cheating is a tatic, you can flank phalanx and kill then from behind THats not a cheat is a tactic. We just need try to conter that and its easy to flank a phalanx if you destroy other inf and cav. Phalanx exploit isnt that, is something diferent ok? look i cant explain better then this maybe someone post here a video of phalanx exploit so you can understand. its not a tactic its a error can you understand? its not like using archers or AP units to kill armored or unarmoured foe. and why you are forced to pin phalanx from the front?? i did say the better way to kill phalanx isnt from the front
Well about the forest i understand you but i find irelevant becouse its hard to move a phalanx in teh woods, they dont work so good anyway.
i cant seem to get tungle worked dont kown why. ill try again.

[vartan]

There seems to be language barrier here...

One problem I have with the phalangites in woods is how they seem to be in as perfect a formation as they are in the open plains. Also, another problem I have with phalangites is how they can magically pick up and lower their pikes in a second even if they are in melee. Quite interesting, this RTW engine, eh?

As for the naked men, well, what can you do about it? Maybe they enjoy being naked. No wonder missiles tear them apart.

[Knight of Heaven]

Lol vartan that is true. they pick the pikes very fast, but maybe we can porpose to a rule with only the phalanx can be engaged with or without pike formation, for instance if you charge with phalangites with pike formation then you should remain that way , if you charge with out pike formation you should remain that way. only you can change it if you turn your men away and reform.

[vartan]

Lol vartan that is true. they pick the pikes very fast, but maybe we can porpose to a rule with only the phalanx can be engaged with or without pike formation, for instance if you charge with phalangites with pike formation then you should remain that way , if you charge with out pike formation you should remain that way. only you can change it if you turn your men away and reform.

I agree. You need a reasonable distance and amount of time to reform...else it'd be ridiculous. If in melee with axes, you do not simply stop, get your pikes, and magically become a supreme phalanx, indivisible and unstoppable.

In any case, you cannot get Total Realism...major lulz to that!
All you can do is make propositions and come to agreements and some sort of consensus (yeah, right!). Anyways, it is all futile. Just ST*U and play the *in game!!!

P.S. Thessaloniki > Athenai ... =P

[Maion Maroneios]

Thessaloniki > Athenai ... =P
Eh?

Maion

[mountaingoat]

if anyone is interested , there was an epic battle about 2 weeks ago , 3v4 ..

have an AAR in the works on this , not much but just going over this epic battle , great tactics for barbarorum team =)


https://img155.imageshack.us/img155/8046/barbarorum.jpg




http://rapidshare.com/files/242994356/dieromai.rpy.html

[Knight of Heaven]

Haha indeed the most èpic of all èpics it was a perfect win, in team work is always sound to have a plan i recomend the whacthing of this great battle.

[Maion Maroneios]

MAKEDONES SIDING WITH ROMAIOI BARBAROI? This is pure hybris, which person right in his mind would do such an unthinkable thing? Now I understand how you came to loose. Bah.

Maion

[IrishHitman]

MAKEDONES SIDING WITH ROMAIOI BARBAROI? This is pure hybris, which person right in his mind would do such an unthinkable thing? Now I understand how you came to loose. Bah.

Maion

I'm compelled to agree...

[Duguntz]

what about that : on my last MP battle... as Sweboz... I've been forced to allie with Makedonians... Ha, probably my commander had the ''coward'' trait, or was paralitic when he signed the alliance... who knows... indeed, we losted...

[antisocialmunky]

I seem to recall the last Macedonian I allied chased a bunch of Brits into their lines and died horribly.

[Apázlinemjó]

if anyone is interested , there was an epic battle about 2 weeks ago , 3v4 ..

It was a great battle, loved the microgaming on the flanks.

[antisocialmunky]

Are we actually going start this tournement?

[Lestat83]

join me to the roman team

[antisocialmunky]

Epic Replay of an Epic Steppe Battle

2 vs 2, Baktria(ME) + Baktria(FC) vs Parthia(KoH) and Pontus(Apaz)

http://www.mediafire.com/file/2mjimmjygtn/BaktriavsSteppe.rpy

This was very interesting because I've never seen a steppe battle online. Its definitely interesting since its all about running around the right way. There are some interesting tactics like HA herding against the red line.

Also its a pain in the butt to pay attention...

https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/6438/baktriaunawares.png
Oh look, A Penny!

Guess where my general was paying attention? On the far side the battle as the hordes of pontic units fell on FC's phalanx. So about 5 minutes later I realized that my general and my elite kats were fighting off the whole Parthian Horde.

That was the turning point in the game...

But I won't spoil the ending for you but Baktrian Cataphracts > Parthian Late Cataphracts. :-p

[Knight of Heaven]

haha i remember that battle, didnt kown you save the replay.
well i wont spoil the ending, but i belive the key to win this battle was on the chosing of the rosters, you always need to have a good suport of your phalanxes, becouse they alone dont acomplish much. this is a good example of that.
And historicaly thats one of the reasons why hellenic factions were in decay at that time and eventualy fell, i mean military, goos suport units for the phalanx were to expensive, and so in small numbers, and hard to come by :P

[Mithick666]

ROMANY vs BARBAROI it was unresolved but imagin who won

https://img188.imageshack.us/img188/6091/incompleta.jpg

[Maion Maroneios]

ROMAIOI vs BARBAROI it was unresolved but imagin who won
You are contradicting the deffinition here of Romaioi, I'm afraid. Plus, you're contradicting the deffinition of Barbaroi as well. The latter, means non-Hellen. The Romaioi certainly are barbaroi by that deffinition. Secondly, everyone knows they are THE Barbaroi.

Maion

[mountaingoat]

server is so empty!!!!!! damn euros , i gotta be up at 3am just to play against anyone

[Maion Maroneios]

Damn us? Dude, blame the distance rather. I can't play with you during my "normal" hours for the same reason!

Maion

[Knight of Heaven]

You are contradicting the deffinition here of Romaioi, I'm afraid. Plus, you're contradicting the deffinition of Barbaroi as well. The latter, means non-Hellen. The Romaioi certainly are barbaroi by that deffinition. Secondly, everyone knows they are THE Barbaroi.

Maion

Yes and im sure the romans think the same way about greeks, and celts also the same way to the greeks and romans and so fourth. :furious3:
yeah the servers have been a little empty lately, i was unable to play with anyone.

[mountaingoat]

Damn us? Dude, blame the distance rather. I can't play with you during my "normal" hours for the same reason!

Maion

internet sarcasm

*brain explodes*

[Maion Maroneios]

I know you were joking pal, I was as well :clown:

Maion

[antisocialmunky]

BTW- Maion, I think this will interest you. I was in a bad mood and decided to say screw it and use the phalanx hole punch against Mithick. He had his phalangites 8 deep and it stopped it cold. Granted I was using Camillian but still it confirms my theory that it is fairly easy to stop if you're not forning up 5-6 deep every time *roll eyes*. Its not really a necessary in this tournement anyways but I'd thought I mention it and its probably still a little broken when used by Germans.

Anyways, when are you online. I want to Baktria your butt.

[Maion Maroneios]

Yeah, I know it's not impossible to counter the exploit. But that still doesn't neglect its nature as a cheat when used properly. And I'm having my exams period right now, hence my dissapearance from Hamachi. I finish in the 17th, so I guess I'll have some more time after that.

Maion

[Alsatia]

I can't get the multiplayer to work......


:thumbsdown:

[Apázlinemjó]

I can't get the multiplayer to work......


:thumbsdown:

Why? Do you get an error, or what?

[Fluvius Camillus]

Awesome battle ASM, I saved it too but didn't post it.

Where is phalanx300? He should start this tournament soon, I'm pretty tired of all those talk to limit every unit which can be a little bit effective....

~Fluvius

[antisocialmunky]

I can't get the multiplayer to work......


:thumbsdown:

Try EBOT02, Pass EB.

Perhaps we should segregate the rooms by timezone.

[JinandJuice]

nobody lives in america :((

[antisocialmunky]

I'm just going to throw this out there. We could just the phalanx exploit be used only against a phalangite box after that player has no other forces left. The 'surround' rule was never really all that usable in the last tournement.

[Maion Maroneios]

*Sigh*

You guys never learn, don't you. The exploit is not going to be implemented. Get over it, it's not going to happen.

Maion

[antisocialmunky]

*Sigh*

Read more carefully.

Like I said, I was just throwing it out there. I'm not advocating it since no one needs this to beat the phalanx this time around. It was just a thought since Phalanx doesn't have any phalangite box rules.

ASM

[Maion Maroneios]

*Sigh*

I read very carefully and I know were you're aiming at, don't worry.

Maion

[antisocialmunky]

*Sigh*

Then don't act so defensive. Good luck on those tests BTW.

[Duguntz]

nobody lives in america :((


Quebec. North America :2thumbsup:

[Duguntz]

Guys, I'm sorry, I've been flying to England and do not have an easy access to internet. If someone could just keep in touch with me about the tournament and how's goin and the changes in rules, it's be great! thanks mates! Just PM me!

Cheers to all! :2thumbsup:

Sweboz will soon be back to kick some Romans arses!

[darius_d]

I wanted to give some input in attempt to establish final and clear rules of the tournament, addressing most problems discussed so that all is clear, simple, and working as much as possible. But without rewriting everything.

As for elite units: it is proved in previous posts that elite unit shouldn't be identified by name or description of features. This is often relative because it depend on culture so effectively it is not universally comparable.

The best universal criterion IMHO is the cost of recruitment.

Why? Because it represents quite precisely average potential combat value of a unit in battle. By cost of recruitment we can generally quite reliably compare all units with each other.
After setting up a level of mnai for being elite there is no more discussion if a unit is elite or not. It is very simple and clear to apply for all units of all factions, both native and foreign.

So this is what I propose about elite units and balance of armies:

--------------------------------------
(Applies for all cultures except steppe)

Total elite units in the army:
All factions except barbarians - max 6 elites (no change)
Barbarians - max 8 elites

Foreign units: max 5 units - unit is foreign if is not included on the list of natives on europabarbarorum.com - (no change)

CAVALRY:
max 6 units, max 2 elites; level for elite: > 3000 mnai
exceptions - these are also elites:
- all bodyguards cav.

MISSILES (archers and slingers, no skirmishers):
max 4 units, max 2 elites, level for elite: > 1100 mnai

INFANTRY and others:
level for elite: > 2078 mnai
exceptions - these are also elite units:
- Romani Legionary First Cohort marian/imperial 1914 mnai,

Additonal rules for Pike Phalanx:
max 8 units,
max 6 units > 2002 mnai
- no movement of units throu phalanx
- phalanx formation once disabled cannot be enabled again until end of battle.


TOTAL BUDGET: 40 000 mnai.
Chevrons - no limitations.
---------------------------------------

Why like that?

Barbarians are given more access to elite troops because this is designed to help them spend all available money without any problems, so that their army is equal to others.
It is according to the rule that two armies are potentially equal if they spend equal budget.
This way the budget of 40 K mnai could be maintained.

That arrangment for barbarians should be considered as substitute of their historical numerical superiority on battlefield. EB settings reversed this by giving to hellenic phalanxes both quality and tactical superiority (which is ok) and numerical advantage (this is not ok).
But still, the budget is equal for all.


Cavalry -
with level above 3000 mnai we can find only strong cavalry units in all rosters, even if they are called sometimes "medium". But there is much difference between medium cav costing 2300 mnai and 3100 mnai.
Otherwise, if we increase the level to let's say 3200 mnai, we'll see again just very heavy cavalry, and barely one or none of lighter units. The level of 3000 mnai restricts all factions, including barbarians, and helps to save more money for infantry.

Missiles-
The indicator for 1100 mnai level is a unit of Balearic Slingers 1118 mnai.
Optionally this could be lowered to include Rhodian Slingers 988 mnai, but then IMHO too many units would be counted as elite missiles.
So it is also clear that powerful syrian archers are elite much like Kretikoi Toxotai, which is absolutely fair.
Limit for elite missile units is to keep historical and to avoid heavy overuse like it is now, especially by Hellens as they do not need to sacrifice limit of elite units to build a phalanx.
Barbarians don't have anything of elite missiles anyway, so they can only counter that by making more elite infantry units.

Infantry-
The level of 2078 mnai is set between Hellenic Medium Phalanx - which remains below category of elites, and Cohors Evocata - which is considered elite. First Cohorts remain elite as it is now.
It means that except barbarians (who have more access to elites) for all others there is no major change in battle formation compared to what is now.
If phalanx are to consist of 7 or 8 units, then those additional units need to be cheaper levies like Klerouchoi or hellenic natives. This is to avoid overpowered phalanxes and keep more historical.

Chevrons - no limitations because their influence is actually of minor importance.
---------------------------------------

I hope this proposal solves more problems than creates :clown:. I appreciate all comments.

[Maion Maroneios]

Good luck on those tests BTW.
Cheers :2thumbsup:

Maion

[antisocialmunky]

I really do like the increased barbarian elite limit. They definitely need that.

For the most part, I like this. But believe me, you do not want 6 cav allowed for civilized factions if you are a barbarian, that is a bad day. You want less than 5, probably 4 but 5 is good. 2 Heavies and 3 Medium-Lights. I think the cav rules definitely need to be revised since certain elite cavalry is under 3K. For example, Campanian Cav are like 2600 and are an cost effective counter agaisnt 4K Companions. I would spam these if I had the chance at 40K.

Cavalry should still be segregated with heavy/medium-light since the extremely powerful shock effects of heavy cav is the main issue. High end HA can't do that and neither can high end overhand spear cav.

Max 4 missiles is okay with the unrestricted skirm/light infantry that I've described earlier but you probably want a skirm limit somewhere since my Baktrian Light Infantry + Archer army can't be effectively countered by the barbarians except in trees.

The phalanx rules you have would be okay in theory but it makes phalangites too easy to counter by just running around and forcing the enemy to phalanx ball. An army couldn't just run past an enemy army to hit it from behind since it needed to guard its camp as well forcing a set piece battle. So I think the correct balance would be to make it so that phalangites can't be put back in phalanx once they are taken out of it in combat. I don't really have a problem with them being used for flanking running around since it strings them out and makes it easier to hit them from behind.

Steppe wise, I would say, max 10 missiles, max 14 cavalry, max 4 heavy cavalry. 6 Elites total. I usually use a 10 cav steppe army with a mass of cheap infantry. Steppe rules will be hard to make.

Also, Roman units with the discount don't really fit your infantry limit. You would probably categorize Triarii as elite despite the fact that they are really mediocre unless you want it that way.

[_Agrippa_]

hi, I would want to participate in the tournament of europa barbarorum using the Roman faction, my nick it is Agrippa,excuse me if I am wrong I don't speak English, I am Italian

[JinandJuice]

I must disagree with your 6 cav 2 elite limit. Like what antisocialmunky said, 6 cavalry is too much, but 2 elites counting bodyguard cav is too few. Assuming you would position 1 heavy cav on each flank plus a bodyguard cav, I suggest the original 3 elite.

I also do not agree with 2 elite missile units. If this rule were implimented, we'd see few variances, as most would have 2 kretan archers and 2 eastern slingers and have them duke it out with each other and hope for the best. If you put the elite limit to 3, players would have to contemplate whether they should have more cheap slingers to counter the more elite units or have more elite units to weaken the infantry during skirmishes. Basically what I'm saying is, the more the variety, the smaller luck is as a variable.

I strongly disagree with your phalanx rules. If the phalanxes could not separate, it would be incredibly easy for the line to be flanked, and incredibly hard to flank with your phalanx line. You would have to rely on the weak spearmen to hold the flanks and flank. If your rule were to be implemented, players would most likely use 4 or less phalanx units to hold a center and use hoplites to substitute for infantry. This would completely give up the purpose of being a phalanx nation. I think the 8 max limit is also arguable. Barbarians and Romans stack themselves with their specialized infantry, so why can't hellenic nations stack themselves with theirs? Even if a player does use 15 phalanxes, that would make them very easy to flank, especially with archers. Players would also just put them off phalanx mode for more mobility. A good general would not rely on pure phalanx units. A good opposing general would also know how to exploit the enemy's use of mass infantry.

[mountaingoat]

not bad change on the rules , an additional 2 elites for bars seems fine , mnai still should be lowered to 30k ... the whole point is that there is not enough light infantry on the field .. maybe we should make a rule that there should be at least 5x light inf units including light skirmishers

and i think the 1 cheveron rule should still apply if mnai is left over.

[antisocialmunky]

Missile unit wise, I'd say 4 archers 6 skirms or something like that. 30K favors Rome and the Barbarians a little too much. My testing with 35K has shown that it's pretty good for balancing. However, since the barbarians get more elites which are 3K +, then you're shooting yourself in the foot with the lower mnai since the Hellenic factions and outnumber you with phalangites or shoot your lines to ribbons since basic and mid-range barbs have poop armor while the high end guys have decent armor.

Really the only european barbs that have a chance are Lusto.


BTW- Since Phalanx isn't responding, I'm thinking about taking over. Also, since you're not doing much right now Maion, do you want to help with the planning? If anyone else wants to help with the planning and rules testing, talk to me on Hamachi, PM, or this thread.

[mountaingoat]

Hellenic factions and outnumber you with phalangites or shoot your lines to ribbons since basic and mid-range barbs have poop armor while the high end guys have decent armor.

Really the only european barbs that have a chance are Lusto.

no way , i eat them all up .. plus the heavy dacian spear has decent armor .

if there is going to be more elites then maybe more mnai could be put into the game .. the only thing i would say is that there should be a light inf or levy rule ... x5 levy units maybe in every game? with 40k that would at least mean we could pick the elites we wanted and make it worth while .

[Duguntz]

Hmmm, with any regard for civilised or barbarian faction, levy rule seems really interesting. Bu let me remember you that that gives 4 pikes more to every hellenic... but I'm confident ll will be sorted out... and for horses...
NO WAY. 6 is waaaay too much. 4 is well enough and if too many horse lovers cries, keep limit at 5 ( although its still too muh...) apart of corse for nomads...

cheers all

[mountaingoat]

Hmmm, with any regard for civilised or barbarian faction, levy rule seems really interesting. Bu let me remember you that that gives 4 pikes more to every hellenic.


not really if there is rule for max number of pikes

[antisocialmunky]

More reasonable people do 6 pikes, 6 line infantry.

Anyways, vartan and I are testing Leaf since Tunngle was so immature. I think this has a shot this time.

http://www.leafnetworks.net/

[antisocialmunky]

You know, I've been testing new rules this morning and I don't really see how we can make the barbs competative. I think the best way of making them better is to give them unlimitted weapons upgrades. But still. I'm not really sure what would be good for them since I don't usually paly them.

You can't beat Hellens well since you have crap cav. You can't attack anyone with good line infantry since they'll jsut stick them in guard mode and your men will tire themselves to death. You can't beat steppe... obviously...

So besides hanging around in trees, what can they actually do?

[darius_d]

@ASMunky - we can still decrease budget to 35 K.
And I've got an idea for revision of cavalry :idea2:

OK guys, thanks for your great feedback. I must agree that cavalry needed better arrangement.
I came to conclusion that cavalry should be separated in two categories - normal cavalry and light steppe cavalry.
In the first category there is everything which is not light steppe cav :)

So what is this light steppe cav? These are steppe, eastern or dacian light cavalry units costing below 2000 mnai.
It is very easy to find which units match this category. They are light, unarmored, fast moving units armed often in bows, but also javelin or lance. So it is this type of cavalry which is specific for many eastern and steppe factions.

For me this distinction is quite necessary to respect the fact that for many steppe and greco-eastern factions horse units were basic part of the army. However, it was army of many light horse, not just medium and heavy horse.
Then, these factions shouldn't be punished to limit of just 4 cav units. So the idea is to give them indeed more cavalry but not to overpower them either.

Revised Cavalry Rules:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
All factions except steppe/ eastern:

CAVALRY (all cav except Light Steppe Cav)
max 4 unit, max 2 elites (> 3000 mnai)

LIGHT STEPPE CAVALRY (steppe, eastern and dacian light cavalry < 2000 mnai)
max 2 units,
(available for Pontos, Baktria, Arche Seleukeia and Getai).

----------------------------------------
Steppe and Eastern factions:
(Saka Rauka, Sauromate, Hayasdan, Pahlava).

Total army rules:
Max 10 archer/slinger units.
Max 6 elite units.

CAVALRY (all cav except Light Steppe Cav)
max. 4 elites (> 3000 mnai)

LIGHT STEPPE CAVALRY (steppe, eastern and dacian light cavalry < 2000 mnai)
min 50% of total cavalry units - (i.e. for 9 cav total, min. 5 units must be light steppe cav).

----------------------------------------
Rules for foot missiles, infantry and pike phalanx are the same as for all factions.

----------------------------------------
Other Modifications: (following the feedback)

Infantry:
exceptions - they are also elites:
- Romani Triarii camillan 1623 mnai / polybian 1524 mnai - (added)

Pike phalanx:
- [phalanx formation once disabled cannot be enabled again until end of battle] - cancelled
---------------------------------------------------------------------

It means that:
- even for 20 units of cavalry, minimum 10 units will be this cheap light steppe cavalry. Plus max 10 missile units in all army and max 4 elite cavalry - it should be more or less balanced.
Then I think that limit of max 14 cavalry units is no more necessary following introduction of this light steppe cav. category., and anybody playing as Steppe or Eastern should be allowed to field up to 20 cav units.

- Greco-Eastern factions, AS and Getai may have up to 6 cav units, but then 2 units will be always those cheap steppe cav. For them it is fair, and that way it should be acceptable.

- Hayasdan and Pahlava should be allowed to field unlimited number of cavalry, like steppe factions, and emulations of battle of Carrhae should be possible. Thats why I listed them together with steppe factions.

I really believe with this changes were are nearly at home :)

For other things:

- foot missiles and skirmishers
@ASmunky
I don't know if I understood you correctly. I grouped in Foot Missiles only archers and slingers because javelin skirmishers should be compared more to standard infantry who also throw their javelins or pila. In this sense they cannot be called elite because they usually get beaten.
Foot Missiles including just archers and slingers makes them remaining exclusive foot unit category shooting on long range, and their comparison in more justified. This way things are more clear, I believe.
As for Barbarians - now they have more elites, and more flexibility on budget, so beware. Also beware that Indian Longbowmen fall into elite now :)
I can help you about the tournament, if needed.

- phalanx formation
I canceled my proposal, I understand the issue, though I believe hellenic generals should know how to move phalanx in cohesion and where :)

- elite cav number
@JinandJuice - many people, not just me see that even 3 elite heavy cav (unless you are Steppe or Eastern) is simply spoiler of balance, thats why limit of max 2 was introduced. Believe me, this is still devastating.
@Duguntz - I hope you are more happy after the revision of cavalry rules above.

- budget: 30K, 40K or 35?
@ mountaingoat - 30 K seems too radical - too many people would be stack with drastically limited options for units to pick because many units just do not match their stats. People prefer maximum choice of units, thats why 40K seems most popular.
35 K budget is very reasonable for me. Though I know some hellen fans were strongly opposing it. I can accept both 40K and 35K.

Also idea for minimum units of light infantry is very good, for ex minimum 4 such units. So skirmishers for me could be part of this category. Let's see what others say.
BTW - what do you propose as cost barrier for light infantry?
Chevrons - unlimited, you are free about that.


So, guys!
if there are not big disagreements for the above, perhaps we can try some tests with new rules?

Hamachi network EBOT02, pass EB will be available for these rules if someone wish to try.

[antisocialmunky]

Just a friendly reminder directed especially at our Italian friends. THERE ARE NO UPGRADES ALLOWED. NO SWORD UPGRADES, NO ARMOR UPGRADES, ONLY 1 CHEVRON MAX. If you suspect your opponent of cheating, load up their unit roster(you ahve to be their faction) using the load preset army button at the bottom right of the army selection screen.

Seriously. The upgrades unbalance the game. I had 10 Indian archers shooting at 4 Imperial Roman Archers. I killed around 200(large size) but lost just that many. Except he still had ammo. That was 1 attack and 1 defense. Same thing happened with 3 Cretans vs 4 celtric slingers...

[Phalanx300]

I'm sorry that I have'n't been here alot but I got this whole week with tests coming up, and had to make dozens of presentations and essays so don't had and got the time right now for a tourney. :no:

Someone else is free to take it over, Anti you already applied for that so go ahead :sweatdrop:.

[Apázlinemjó]

You know, I've been testing new rules this morning and I don't really see how we can make the barbs competative. I think the best way of making them better is to give them unlimitted weapons upgrades. But still. I'm not really sure what would be good for them since I don't usually paly them.

You can't beat Hellens well since you have crap cav. You can't attack anyone with good line infantry since they'll jsut stick them in guard mode and your men will tire themselves to death. You can't beat steppe... obviously...

So besides hanging around in trees, what can they actually do?

AP units can do wonders, even if the enemy is in guard mode.

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah, I think we should give Celts, Casse, Sweboz, and Getai the ability to do +2 attack with weapon upgrades. +3 is a little too overpowering when comboed with chevron for +4. Also, this would only be for infantry not cav, don't put this on archers/slingers/horses and only a +1 for javelin armed units.

So anyways, hopefully we can start this in two weeks before absolutely everyone loses interest. If you're still in the tournement, you should report in this thread by posting that you're still in it. Thanks.

[JinandJuice]

Yeah I'm still in it as Arche Seleukeia, and although I'm been on Hamachi frequently I still am not acknowledged on the first page.

[tsidneku]

I have been following the debate about rules. I am posting to confirm that I am still looking to participate in this tournament as Pontos.

Thanks. :beam:

[Maion Maroneios]

Yeah, I'm still interested as Makedonia as well. But note I am very sceptical about these rules. First lowering the mnai cap, then allowing 1 chevron for each if a player has enough mnai left, then allowing weapon upgrades as well? I tell you, we're going to get bad beatings.

Maion

[antisocialmunky]

1 Chevron was allowed for RvG and the Hellens came out pretty well. This is still i ntesting phase. It would be great if you could help. We are sticking at 40K right now but 35K is definitely a possibility.