Diseases as a possible set of traits in EB II

[Geush]

Hello! Long time lurker, seldom poster.

I was considering the old debate regarding the origins of syphilis (that is, whether it is a New World disease or described in classical Greek texts) when I remarked upon a lack of diseases in EB character traits.

We have things like madness (loss of influence or management), Lame (permanent movement impairment), Under the Weather/Bedridden (temporary stat decrease) but there are a host of other ailments that we humans are susceptible too, infectious or congenital, that the family members and generals don't have to deal with.

I understand that trying to include too much is burdensome, but if the team would include a few infectious diseases that were known or referenced in the period, we would gain. They could modeled after specific illnesses or have specific effects and be given generic Attic names.


Syphilis, as a more complex example (in stages, as per many other traits)

I. Lesion - This man has developed an open sore in a noteworthy region of his body. It could be connected with his habitual carousing or the will of the gods. At any rate, he had better visit the disciples of Asklepios.
[Chance of acquiring this trait should be very small; increased by size of the city; increased by large trade; increased by womanising/adulterous traits; increased by taverns/brothels; decreased by reclusive traits]
[25% chance per season of developing into stage II]

II. Rashes, Ulcers, and Lesions - This man's outer body has begun to show horrible signs, reflecting a profound sickness within. He may have difficulty concentrating or a slight degree of organ failure.
-1 Command, -1 Management, -2 Influence, -15% movement
[50% chance per season of going into dormancy]

III. Sickness Subsided - Although it no longer progresses outwardly, the illness remains, dormant.
-1 Command, -1 Management, -1 Influence, -10% movement
[5% chance per season of progressing into A, B, or C]

IV A. Locomotor Ataxia - Shuffling and shambling, this man finds it difficult to walk or direct his body. He has become clumsy and hard to understand.
-2 Command, -2 Management, -2 Influence, -20% movement, -1 hit point

B. Ungrounded Mind - Insomnia, memory loss, and fainting spells disrupt his daily life. He can no longer be relied upon to manage his affairs or those of the kingdom.
-1 Command, -4 Management, -2 Influence, -10% movement, -1 hit point

C. Growths - Fleshy lumps grow unhindered on his bones, organs, and skin. His health is severely impaired and his countenance has grown terrifying.
-1 Command, -2 Management, -4 Influence, -15% movement, -2 hit points




Much more easily you could make broad classes, say, physically degenerative (-hp and movement) that might progress under forced march and never recover. Or leprosy.


Thanks, hope this is something to chew on.

[Alsatia]

Good idea.

The scriptors should (hopefully) not have a problem. Like how they change traits e.g The Spartan Agoge.

[Cute Wolf]

are you think the only disease that growth in several steps are just syphilis.....:oops:

There lies lueprosy, tubercolusis, pox, and much more.... this was better to be united in "seasonal sickness" trait... (coffined to bed, under the weather... etc).. because eventually, this poor guy who infected with syphilis will be forced to cut his own P

[bobbin]

I know there's a inbred set of traits already in EB, my Makedonian royal family tend to get them from time to time.

[Cute Wolf]

Inbred... those incest loving sister maniac is the PTOLIES!!!!

But ln EB II we could made someone ACTUALLY marry their own sister.... (Princess agent condition: ON!):egypt:

So we could use the Historical "PPTOLIES FAMILY"

[Darius]

Hopefully doctor/apothecary ancillaries would help fight getting the traits and maybe reduce their severity over time.

[Alsatia]

I feel sorry for the FM trapped in Rhodes, besieged for 5 turns with no doctor and syphilis.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Do remember though that diseases which impair you that badly, usually also prevent you from holding a position of command. Quite simple: you don't choose a career in the military if the drills alone are going to kill you, do you?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

There probably wasn't any Syphilis in the Mediterranean during the classical era...

[Alsatia]

:sweatdrop::shame::sweatdrop:

Once again I have been proven wrong by my stupidity.......

[MerlinusCDXX]

Didn't syphilis originally travel to the Mediterranean from around the southeast Asian/Indian Subcontinent region sometime in the late Middle Ages?

[Ludens]

Didn't syphilis originally travel to the Mediterranean from around the southeast Asian/Indian Subcontinent region sometime in the late Middle Ages?

The origin of syphilis is disputed, but the main theory is that it arrived in Europe from the Americas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syphilis#Origins).

[Cute Wolf]

That's a good thing to hear that syphillis was absent in classical era....

[Aemilius Paulus]

I have enough negative traits in EB I to worry about. If you two, Geush and Alsatia, succeed in implementing diseases, I will send you both computer viruses in revenge. And then mod out the diseases from EDCT. Honestly, as a perfectionist, such horrific and random traits that take away so much command, management, and influence, are my worst nightmare.

[The General]

I have enough negative traits in EB I to worry about. If you two, Geush and Alsatia, succeed in implementing diseases, I will send you both computer viruses in revenge. And then mod out the diseases from EDCT. Honestly, as a perfectionist, such horrific and random traits that take away so much command, management, and influence, are my worst nightmare.

*Nods in support*

[Geush]

Gentlemen, to restate my position:

1. I think a more complicated trait-set of diseases would add depth, which is good.
- It could add extra utility to buildings of health and sanitation as one poster pointed out.

2. It would be easy, compared to making models or skinning units, and doesn't require special skills.

3. It would make the game harder and hopefully kill family members more often. I don't think they die enough on the strategy map.

The controversial nature of syphilis has nothing to do with the desirability of making disease more prevalent.

[Alsatia]

It was a good idea, I was prover wrong, and I said nothing more (however, you may want to try something else than syphilis). All this chat here has little if any influence on the EBII Team. They'll do whatever they want, if they do diseases, it is not my or his fault.
This is just another mere suggestion to all the fanfare and ideas they are getting and I doubt many (including this one) will not be included.

[Mediolanicus]

I have enough negative traits in EB I to worry about. If you two, Geush and Alsatia, succeed in implementing diseases, I will send you both computer viruses in revenge. And then mod out the diseases from EDCT. Honestly, as a perfectionist, such horrific and random traits that take away so much command, management, and influence, are my worst nightmare.

So no person can possibly get a negative trait..? :inquisitive:

Come on AP, you can't force every FM in your game to be like you...


For me the more traits and ancilliaries - good and bad - , the merrier.

[Cute Wolf]

Nah, I'm not a perfectionist, but when u feel u get too many FMs, just pack your old and useless FM into one ship, and try to provoke those AS, Karthadast, or Ptolies Navy..... It was called asshipinssation

EDIT: I only used them when playing as ....... u guest....
1) Romani (they stab their own brother's back afterall
2) Kart - Hadast (they have a custom to execute their incompetent general... wait, for this Faction, I only kill useless FMs, not the old...
3) U can guess KH..... I drowned all FM's that is useless and neither Spartan nor Athenian

[Jolt]

Cardiopulmonary Necrosis would be a nice disease to have in the Classical Times.

[Owen Glyndwr]

Leprosy, don't forget Leprosy!! (Albeit, I imagine leprosy would a virtual death sentence socially/politically, regardless of class...not to mention a literal death sentence later on)

Also, I haven't read too deeply into the traits, but is stuttering included? Remember Emperor Claudius was a stutterer if I do recall correctly. That could definitely affect you Management skills. It would be entertaining trying to keep your degenerate FMs out and away from any sort of political life (As if some players don't do that enough as it is...:inquisitive:)

[The General]

Also, I haven't read too deeply into the traits, but is stuttering included? Remember Emperor Claudius was a stutterer if I do recall correctly. That could definitely affect you Management skills. It would be entertaining trying to keep your degenerate FMs out and away from any sort of political life (As if some players don't do that enough as it is...:inquisitive:)
Isn't stuttering quite rare, though? Iirc like a per cent of people are thought to suffer from stuttering... Also, should it be included, it should rather affect influence than management, as both Claudius and, say, Churchill did manage ( ;o ) their roles quite well in spite of stuttering, Claudius conquering Britain, annexed several provinces into the empire, build a good deal of public works and was a quite capable administrator. As to Churchill, well, his achievements (at least primary ones) are probably known to everyone.

Also, while this all could be fun with a larger realm with plentiful FMs, it could severely affect smaller factions - if all your three FMs are gloomdy, inbred, stammering, bedridden characters suffering from leprosy... :wall:

EB (read: Total War series) could use a touch of Crusader Kings in that regard... 8D

[TancredTheNorman]

Well as a matter of principle it could be fun to have a stuttering king with maximum acumen.

However as a gameplay matter don't you think your generals/governors are horrible enough?

In M2TW I find the only way to prevent them from turning 10 dread jerks is to put them on Crusades and make sure they are the Crusaders who take the city/castle.

As for the original Rome Total War they always get so many horrible stats.

Even with endless good ancillairies they will generally lose all management and be a finnancial liability, and they will usually lose influence fast.

Now Medieval Total War 1 had a somewhat easier time as far as generals go, but then every unit had one.

[Cute Wolf]

@ Tancred...
On vanilla RTW, maximizing taxes... fight outnumbered (but not outskilled...)... and never built "tavern / Brothel temple (aphrodite, freya, ceres and other "godess"... (there's no brothel in RTW yet))... will almost made your FM into a high management, high influence guy... with prim and proper behaviour... Iron fist is the best... When playing as those overpowered Romans, u need nothing but gladiators (especially Julii... Samnite Gladiators is enough for anything!)... There's nothing deep in roleplaying... unlike EB :2thumbsup:

[Irishmafia2020]

Diseases are a common addition to most MTW2 mods, and I believe that there are some "disease packs" which can be generally added without too much difficulty to almost any mod of that engine... having said that, these diseases became a major point of frustration for many players of MTW2 mods because they became so commonplace as to make nearly all generals useless. In almost every case they had to be toned down, and their effects lessened so that the game remained fun. I hope that diseases are added to the game, but when more than 20% of your generals get them (up to 90% in some mods) then role playing is out of the window, and your families become useless...

[Ibrahim]

I'm surprised ramad* and judhaam** aren't mentioned; both would have been an issue in ancient arabia.

*a type of eye disease

**like leprosy-joints fall off.

EDIT: say, why not have region related diseases, so if a roman goes into arabia, he has a good chance of contracting ramad in he desert? :evil:

[Geush]

Yes, the chance to contract diseases would need to be very small. This would also make a little bit of work go further, since you could potentially play a long time without seeing them.

What Ibrahim's talking about would be fantastic if it can be done. Didn't Xenophon write about frostbite amongst the 10k when they went into the Caucasus? You could name that in proto-Germanic, Hai, and Celtic and attach it to appropriate regions.

Even better, you could make it so that the chance of getting frostbite increased dramatically when your troops were at -2 or -3 morale due to starving in foreign territory. Then foraging would get even better, representing wilder peoples abilities to deal with extreme conditions and disadvantaging urbanized soldiers who were campaigning out of their element.