Spartan hoplites

[Celtic_Punk]

Why don't the Spartans have a secondary sword? Spartans carried swords into battle as a backup weapon. You've given the Massalian hoplites swords aswell as the Hypastai.

[Phalanx300]

Why don't the Spartans have a secondary sword? Spartans carried swords into battle as a backup weapon. You've given the Massalian hoplites swords aswell as the Hypastai.

They didn't want to let them fight with swords because the spear was the main weapon and sword would be used to much. But same can be said for Hypaspist and Massilian Hoplites. :inquisitive:

[mountaingoat]

i thought this was a game engine limitation ..,.. i recall reading something about the animations , and that by changing the hoplite to overhand , the swords would not work correctly.

[Phalanx300]

i thought this was a game engine limitation ..,.. i recall reading something about the animations , and that by changing the hoplite to overhand , the swords would not work correctly.

Thats nonsense, the Hypaspistai and Massilians are able to do just that.

[Watchman]

Would you like your Spartans charging with their swords ?

[Zett]

Spartiatai Hoplitai would either start with sword to fight (when idle) or switch from spear to sword when in battle, if you give them the sword as secondary or primary weapon. In the end they would mainly use the sword, even if the player don't want them to do so (or you can right klick again and again, so that they don't switch the weapon, which is stupid). So they only have spears, so that they perform better as Hoplitephalanx. Massaliotai retained their swords in EB, because it was their characteristic. Hypaspides retained their swords, because they are more like an assaultunit than a line unit in EB afaik. Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam.

[mountaingoat]

Thats nonsense, the Hypaspistai and Massilians are able to do just that.

mmm well then maybe it was that they drew them out too quickly instead of staying with the spear , something was written about swords and hoplites.

[Ca Putt]

afaik the engine has problems choosing the weaopn if both are melee(with infantry), so according to Murphy's law they fight with spears on walls and fend of cav with swords. It's hard to be sure if a hypaspist a Massilian or a Sweboz bg(that's all double melee weapon units, eh?) uses sword or spear. that's why all "real hoplites" have only a spear to avoid unpredicted weapon changes and decrease the reliability of those units which imho is their main advantage over pretty much every other troop type. whereas Massilians were famed for their Longswords they have both whereas Hypaspists are not stictly hoplites and rather strong anyway and Sweboz BGs are, ... well, Sweboz :D
Spartans on the other side are the uber-Hoplites and thus fight even more "Hoplit-like" than Classical hoplites.

dang, I must have pressed the reply button right after you posted, Zett :/

[Celtic_Punk]

Is there any way to add a sword to them without doing heavy duty modding? (remodling and stuff)

[mountaingoat]

dang, I must have pressed the reply button right after you posted, Zett :/

weird , i did not even see his post :dizzy2::dizzy2:

[Maion Maroneios]

In order to do that, you will require to change the unit's model. First of all, you'll have to edit the unit model with a program like 3ds Max, then switch the spear to secondary. Then, you will have to "borrow" a sword from another unit model by copying it and attaching it to the Spartan's model as a primary weapon. After that, (because I have done all the steps aforementioned) you have to create new sprites IIRC. I know how to do that, but I'm quite bored to do so :sweatdrop: I had the intention of creating a minimod giving hoplites a sword, I may even try to finish this in the end after all.

Maion

[bobbin]

Some models already have swords but they aren't used in the EDU for example the Epliketoi Hoplitai have a wopping great big Xiphos.

[Ludens]

All hoplite unit had swords in the 0.8 build, they just were removed because it didn't work very well. The engine has not been made for infantry having two melee weapons.

[Celtic_Punk]

In order to do that, you will require to change the unit's model. First of all, you'll have to edit the unit model with a program like 3ds Max, then switch the spear to secondary. Then, you will have to "borrow" a sword from another unit model by copying it and attaching it to the Spartan's model as a primary weapon. After that, (because I have done all the steps aforementioned) you have to create new sprites IIRC. I know how to do that, but I'm quite bored to do so :sweatdrop: I had the intention of creating a minimod giving hoplites a sword, I may even try to finish this in the end after all.

Maion

If you do I'd be ever greatful. I don't know how to make sprites and stuff If I did I'd offer to help but, I don't know where to even start.

[Maion Maroneios]

Just let me grab the project I left unfinished, and maybe you'll soon see some of the progress made. My plan basically is to make all hoplite units like the Massaliotai and Hypaspistai types, in case some don't understand this completely. And Ludens, I know things with the aforementioned units work pretty well. So why didn't this persist?

Maion

[Ludens]

If I recall correctly they would either charge with their swords, or else refuse to switch to them during melee. This gave the human player an advantage since he could manipulate the weapon use, something the A.I. did not.

[Watchman]

Ayup. If memory serves, infantry units with two weapons will charge with the second one and proceed to fight more or less with whichever, depending on how the player gave the attack order, ley lines and stellar phenomena.

Pain in the ass basically, and tends to look bad to boot. Which is why secondary swords were junked from all units save those where there's a genuinely meaningful performance difference between those and the primary spear (= longsword or falcata/kopis).

[Celtic_Punk]

I've yet to encounter AI controlled spartan hoplites. I think it won't really matter. KH never really gets to use em. And the whole reason I'd want em is so that I can use em. in my KH campaign.

cant you just change the spear from secondary to primary or primary to secondary and then the AI will by default use that?

[Watchman]

No.

[Celtic_Punk]

what amkes them chose a weapon?

[antisocialmunky]

Might as well be some sort of Maxwell's Daemon or something. No one knows.

[miotas]

Murphy's law, they will use whatever weapon you don't want them to, and whatever weapon is least suited to the task at hand.

[Watchman]

Ie. it's a pain in the ass. Best avoided unless there's an actual reason to have secondaries.

[Celtic_Punk]

well any infantry I have used with 2 weapons generally doesn't have that big of a problem. So either you're all retarded or you just have a messed up game. I mean soldier in the thick of combat will use whatever weapon he think he needs. if formation is broken your best bet might be that sword. Though when trying to halt a thunderous cavalry charge your sword is obviously not your bestest of friends.

[Watchman]

The Point.
You miss it.

[Maion Maroneios]

The Point.
You miss it.
Very Laconic, aren't we?

Maion

[Watchman]

Cranky. Also fed up.

[NeoSpartan]

The Point.
You miss it.

x2

In .8 Classical hoplites would fight mostly with swords. The problem was that Classical Hoplites would swap to swords after being knocked down and getting up.

This caused major uproar, and in subsequent .8x versions the swords were taken off Classical Hoplites.

This continues to happen to all melee infantry units with 2ndary weapons.
ex: Solduros/Arjos/etc
When I played the Aedui in .8x, and 1.0 I took their spears away because they do more killing with their swords (.225 lethality).

p.s.... dang i haven't posted in here in a while ya'll

[Aemilius Paulus]

Just about every middle-class to wealthy soldier had a sword in addition to their primary weapon. That does not mean everyone should get swords because of this. And 0.8 hoplites had the short pikes. So they had to have swords, like it or not.

[Fluvius Camillus]

But what about 300, in that movie the spartans do...

JUST JOKING PEOPLE:clown:

[mountaingoat]

But what about 300, in that movie the spartans do...

JUST JOKING PEOPLE:clown:

but i saw them knock the elephants off the cliff :dizzy2:
lol

[Maion Maroneios]

Don't forget one guy (the gay-looking one) killed a rhino all by himself.

Maion

[Watchman]

You sure he didn't just shoop da whoop (http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/8/8d/300shoop.jpg) ?

That aside, sidearms of one kind or another were as ubiquitous as bad breath. EVERYBODY had one, and often several.
Would there be any particular point in putting them in as actual secondary unit weapons ? Most of the time, heck no. Consider them subsumed into the unit's normal attack values.

[antisocialmunky]

Seriously, did you just discover encyclopedia dramatica last week? Jeese, why don't you jsut link to the wall of pain and get it over with?

[Watchman]

Nah, I've known it for a long time. I just bust it out when I'm bored and feel like spreading some memes around in the suitable contexts. Any mention of 300 is, naturally, Asking For It... :smash:

[Owen Glyndwr]

lol...most likely.


And in a forum like this, you better be ready with sarcasm proof shields when 300 is unleashed, or you'll be gone in a flash lol...

[Nachtmeister]

The problem was that Classical Hoplites would swap to swords after being knocked down and getting up.

Yes - just as they realistically should. If I get knocked down with my bayonet-equipped G-36 assault rifle due to a blow with a similar thing that glances off my helmet and I am miraculously able to get up again before being overrun, shot or just stabbed with that same bayonet, I will rather grab my Feldspaten or combat knife than go grappling for the dropped assault rifle on the ground while the enemy is within centimeters of me... Or at least a pistol. This is theory of course; I have never been in an actual melee engagement - but the above quoted course of action sounds plausible to me.


You sure he didn't just shoop da whoop (http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/8/8d/300shoop.jpg) ?

That aside, sidearms of one kind or another were as ubiquitous as bad breath. EVERYBODY had one, and often several.
Would there be any particular point in putting them in as actual secondary unit weapons ? Most of the time, heck no. Consider them subsumed into the unit's normal attack values.

This is also true - so having swords for hoplites would be more of an aesthetic thing than a technical gameplay-related issue.


Seriously, did you just discover encyclopedia dramatica last week? Jeese, why don't you jsut link to the wall of pain and get it over with?

I did not know of it until one of Watchman's posts directed my attention to it. Thus, I say that ovation is due rather than criticism.

[Celtic_Punk]

i didnt mention 300. i hate that movie. and your personal attack earlier was not welcome watchman. I'm not some fool who doesn't read history. I ask questions cause i dont know everythin g.

[Maion Maroneios]

I'm afraid I'll have to agree with CP for your reply, Watchman. Highly unprofessional to attack someone who just wished to ask acouple of questions and get some answers. I'd be angry myself as well.

Maion

[Watchman]

Watch me care. Bugger should work on his reading comprehension if he doesn't want snarky and curt replies from people who don't feel like reiterating what they just said about why secondary weapons are best avoided.

[Zajuts149]

To everyone else but Watchman: If the Spartans had secondary weapons in EB 0.8, and are since removed, where the animations removed too, or just the EDU changed?

[Phalanx300]

Watch me care. Bugger should work on his reading comprehension if he doesn't want snarky and curt replies from people who don't feel like reiterating what they just said about why secondary weapons are best avoided.

Luckilly no one is forcing you to post.

[Watchman]

To everyone else but Watchman: If the Spartans had secondary weapons in EB 0.8, and are since removed, where the animations removed too, or just the EDU changed?Yes. That is, however, irrelevant as the change involves nothing more than removing or adding a line of text in the DMB file; the important issue is if the *model* has been designed to alternatively wield sword, for if it has not, the best you're going to get is soldiers fencing with an invisible sword - the worst, them using the sword animation with the spear...


Luckilly no one is forcing you to post.True, though conversely nobody's forcing C_P to be a butthurt twerp either.
And I *am* among the few people who actually understand how the system works who still bother posting in the public forums, so eh. Nobody's forcing me to do that either.

[Phalanx300]

True, though conversely nobody's forcing C_P to be a butthurt twerp either.
And I *am* among the few people who actually understand how the system works who still bother posting in the public forums, so eh. Nobody's forcing me to do that either.

Yes, I'm pretty sure people will apreciate you posting here if its going to be in that style.

[Watchman]

They don't receive that style unless they fail Reading Comprehension 101 as patently as C_P did back in post #24 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=2249890&postcount=24) (where, I would add, he's positively asking for trouble with that "...either you're all retarded or..."). And then get all butthurt and whiny about the response, like anyone was going to care.

Oh, and then the units that *do* have sec swords spawn threads like this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=117464). So, yeah.

[Foot]

Run its course. Thread closed. Bye Bye.

Foot