Attrition..

[Xtiaan72]

Any chance of an attrition script being possible for armies caught in the open in winter months or armies campaigning in territories with plague. Perhaps the attrition could be more dramatic if your general doesn't have a doctor type ancillary and your supplies are running low?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I don't think there is a way to script the removal of small portions of units. I remember an attempt to simulate loss of troops to weather, desertion, etc on the RTW engine but it just couldn't be done quite right. The best option was to script a plague and that didn't even work.

[Zarax]

The sad thing is that attrition was half implemented in the RTW engine but it's impossible to make it work properly as it's completely random...

[george585]

I don't think there is a way to script the removal of small portions of units. I remember an attempt to simulate loss of troops to weather, desertion, etc on the RTW engine but it just couldn't be done quite right. The best option was to script a plague and that didn't even work.

I am by no means an expert, but using console commands it is possible AFAIK to remove units from the army and then add them again with different number of troops. It's a technical trick (instead of dicreasing the number of troops in a unit, you are simply removing the unit itself, and then adding it back but with fewer troops). I suppose it would be possible to retain all the experience and armor upgrades by checking the original unit's stats, and then applying them to the new unit. Wouldn't this approach work?

[Atilius]

I am by no means an expert, but using console commands it is possible AFAIK to remove units from the army and then add them again with different number of troops...Wouldn't this approach work?Absolutely not.

[Xurr]

The sad thing is that attrition was half implemented in the RTW engine but it's impossible to make it work properly as it's completely random...


Is that the town rioting thing where your troops all lose a man or 2 when a town riots?

[Ibrahim]

Is that the town rioting thing where your troops all lose a man or 2 when a town riots?

not necessarily. when marching and campaigning is what they want.

[Owen Glyndwr]

I believe the semblances of attrition are handled thorugh the belt tightening stuff. Since they couldn't show desertion and starvation, however, they simply had it decrease the army's loyalty...something like that. Also movement points drop considerably during winter. Other than that, I'm not sure what else can be done...

[Xtiaan72]

I think it may be possible by somehow tying it into the 'Crusade' Script....Which has attrition...

Or the siege script... Both of those situations have attrition in MTW2 so it's got to be possible...

[Foot]

I think it may be possible by somehow tying it into the 'Crusade' Script....Which has attrition...

Or the siege script... Both of those situations have attrition in MTW2 so it's got to be possible...

Both those elements are hardcoded to those gameplay features. We cannot take elements from the crusade/jihad armies and apply it to all. I'm afraid the attrition feature you are hoping for just isn't possible in the manner you are speaking of.

Foot

[Cute Wolf]

If we put crusade / jihad attrition... we'll get most of the campaigning armies works for free (0 upkeep)

[samba_liten]

There is a mini-mod for Stainless Steel that models supply. It's called Byg's Grim Reality. It doesn't model attrition, but gives traits reducing morale, based on the length of time a unit is away from it's base.
Its rather similar to the siege traits you get in Europa Barbarorum I. It is, however, a bit more extensive. As far as I've seen it works well. Maybe an alternative to proper attrition?

[Mediolanicus]

Actually EB has those morale reducing traits for having lesser supplies while in enemy territory too, at least since 0.8x.

[Puupertti Ruma]

Wasn't there tests with the stat_heat and terrain_heat attributes a while ago? In MTW2 making these high enough made units lose men in territories with high stat heat, or something like that. In RTW it did not work, I tested it myself, but according to some people, in MTW2 it actually did work.

[Xtiaan72]

Actually EB has those morale reducing traits for having lesser supplies while in enemy territory too, at least since 0.8x.


It works really well. You need really good experienced generals to offset. That combined with a 'Siege cost' script would the game tons more challenging...

[Atraphoenix]

what about supply wagons as a unit, First cohort increased near battle units. We can add this feature for supply wagons, BTW no idea wether applyable on M2TW.

[Foot]

Except supply wagons don't have an area effect for morale on the battlefield. That's just absurd! Are the soldiers near the wagons nipping off for a cornetto in the middle of a battle and so a little better prepared to stick around?

Foot

[Atraphoenix]

'twas just an idea...
I know it is impossible to reflect a real atmosphere of battles on an game engine with lots of limitations......

what ı meant was, warrior class is useless, unless a logistic unit manage to keep them alive.
In a roman legion, they had engineers, doctors, scouts, cooks, and many non-combatants.

But this is a game we have no chance to add every realistic feature.:shame:

[Watchman]

The light and fast-moving warband types typically got off pretty well just by carrying their snacks, and pillaging the countryside for the rest, AFAIK...
Logistical arrangements are more an issue of *strategic* stamina; that is, how long the army can be kept assembled in the field before it starts getting hungry, of course assuming it can't plain "live off the land" ("a polite euphemism for some very rude activities", as one historian drily noted).

[Atraphoenix]

The light and fast-moving warband types typically got off pretty well just by carrying their snacks, and pillaging the countryside for the rest, AFAIK...
Logistical arrangements are more an issue of *strategic* stamina; that is, how long the army can be kept assembled in the field before it starts getting hungry, of course assuming it can't plain "live off the land" ("a polite euphemism for some very rude activities", as one historian drily noted).

I should quit reading Sun Tzu :shame:
he did not write it for games...:embarassed:

[Watchman]

Well he *was* writing in a very different military context...

[Atraphoenix]

Well he *was* writing in a very different military context...

If you know yourself, and your enemy you will be victorious in each battles you fought,
If you know yourself, but not your enemy you will gain one victory after one defeat,
If you do not know your enemy even yourself, you are destined to lose every battle...

a bad translation but It has a huge relevance methinks,
on the other hand;

Je ne veux pas tuer le thème plus/I do not want to kill the topic any more...

[Watchman]

Some of his axioms are more universally applicable than others; it's not like the ones involving chariots or fire as a weapon were all that relevant these days, for example...

[Atraphoenix]

agree with you...

[Cyclops]

Just speculatin so without prejudice:

A supply wagon does affect battle morale in a negative way: if it is sacked your army gets worried where its next meal will come from. IIRC Alexander's army worried when the wagons went at Gaugemela etc.

A supply wagon means your army can travel faster and further (doesn't disperse to rape and pillage).

In some basic ways supply wagons have a strategic effect similar to generals: if they die in battle the army gets a morale hit and so on.

Maybe there should be a recruitable general with a slow non-combatant wagon bodyguard for civilised factions? With healing, speed and other boosting ancillaries. Then individual units could be represented by limited recruitment or mercenary "Eagle" units.

It would need to be modded heavily to avoid looking ludcrous: imagine a pop-up announcing your faction leader (a 50-year-old 12 oxen dray) has sired a new offspring (a two-wheel cart) or has acquired the trait "ungreased wheel" (-10% movement).

Other modded features might be a cash boost if you slay an enemy "train" in battle, which would give purpose to HA skirmishers raiding civilised armies on the steppes (chuckwagon huntin').

I guess it would be a huge dislocation of the system to take such a central and interesting element as the personalised leadership figures out of the game and replace them with such a prosaic (if accurate) feature.

[Atraphoenix]

once I thought to skin merchant agent as logistic officer, then I have recently decided that a logistics officer like doctor may be added as an ancillary, I lost my ambition on it... I am sure dev team may have lots of ancillaries that can be role played on morale, movement points, health, security, etc.
It is a nightmare to trigger an ancillary, because you only have 8 capacity, and even if you transfer unnecessary ancillaries to create a battle genius; tell me which one would you add for 8 slots:
-Doctor,
-Scout,
-Standard bearer,
-Tutor,
-Intelligence officer,
-Translator,
-Logistics officer,
-Cook,
-Bodyguard/or life savers I forget their names at the moment, champions etc..
-Geographer,
-Engineer,
-Holy priests,
-and so on.

Yes, a general had lots of retinues and they are all logical, historically correct without doubt...
but, where will you put them? into 8 slots :wall:

[Xtiaan72]

once I thought to skin merchant agent as logistic officer, then I have recently decided that a logistics officer like doctor may be added as an ancillary, I lost my ambition on it... I am sure dev team may have lots of ancillaries that can be role played on morale, movement points, health, security, etc.
It is a nightmare to trigger an ancillary, because you only have 8 capacity, and even if you transfer unnecessary ancillaries to create a battle genius; tell me which one would you add for 8 slots:
-Doctor,
-Scout,
-Standard bearer,
-Tutor,
-Intelligence officer,
-Translator,
-Logistics officer,
-Cook,
-Bodyguard/or life savers I forget their names at the moment, champions etc..
-Geographer,
-Engineer,
-Holy priests,
-and so on.

Yes, a general had lots of retinues and they are all logical, historically correct without doubt...
but, where will you put them? into 8 slots :wall:

This is the answer guys combined with a "DLV" type "SIEGE SCRIPT" that makes sieges more and more expensive for each turn you continue it.... This has the added benefit of encouraging players to "Fight it out" on the battle map rather than wait out the defenders... The "logistics" are handled by the ever increasing monetary costs of maintaining the siege. And certain ancillaries like "Engineer" would lower the monetary penalties associated with long sieges... Not a perfect solution to the "Attrition" question but perhaps an answer that can be "Rationalized" in the EBII universe... If the team can't hit these units with attrition while they are on campaign then at least these "Adventures" should be extremely expensive ( especially sieges) to maintain over a long period of time

[Majd il-Romani]

:idea2:what if you used the "Golden Cross" and other wagon-type units from M2 as the supply wagon units until you come up with models. Its a wagon, its guarded, and it supplies the morale bonus. The only problem is that Armies actually move more slowly on the campaign map with Great Crosses, which contradicts having it in the first place. If theres a way to fix that, then dont you thikit would be a good idea? :2thumbsup:

[Atraphoenix]

It is possible but I do not think team would apply it, there are lots of things to add.

I just roleplay like that: I separate 4 units just behind the besieging army in a fort. So I imagine it as the headquarters of the invading army and if the mainland/motherland is far away I may add some more fort like in this picture.

Sorry for my hand drawing, I am not a photoshop Picasso.

https://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9726/supply.jpg

[Ludens]

:idea2:what if you used the "Golden Cross" and other wagon-type units from M2 as the supply wagon units until you come up with models. Its a wagon, its guarded, and it supplies the morale bonus. The only problem is that Armies actually move more slowly on the campaign map with Great Crosses, which contradicts having it in the first place. If theres a way to fix that, then dont you thikit would be a good idea? :2thumbsup:

No, not really. See Foot's post above to see why not. Although supply would influence the morale of the army, a fixed morale bonus with a battlemap radius is a poor simulation of that. I prefer EB1's current system: if an army stays to long in hostile territory, it will suffer gradated morale penalties that affect the entire army, not just those who stand too far away from the supply cart on the battlefield.

[Watchman]

Also, wasn't the baggage train typically left in a fortified camp or formed up in a wagon laager, both also typically forming a fallback position if things went pear-shaped on the battlefield ?