Gymnitai Hoplitai- Naked hoplites!!!

[ARCHIPPOS]

A. Greek vase Depictions of archaic period

http://www.sikyon.com/Korinth/Pottery/vase41.jpg
http://www.ac-creteil.fr/lettres/pedagogie/la/louvre/hoplite2.jpg

B. Greek vase depictions of classical-(and/or hellenistic periods???)...

http://www.heroichomosex.org/hero/heroimages/phyrric3.jpg
http://www.man2manalliance.org/hero/heroimages/achillesslayssolo.jpg
http://www.man2manalliance.org/hero/heroimages/hectorslainsolo.jpg
http://www.heroichomosex.org/hero/heroimages/dromos5.jpg

C.Depictions of hoplites in the Elgin marbles (metope panels of Parthenon) classical period...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Elgin_Marbles_4.jpg
check also these (couldn't attach them!) http://www.flickr.com/photos/mattbrown79/2254993586/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/costi-londra/1402470779/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/foamfresh/1370209304/

D.various other statue depictions
http://www.heroichomosex.org/hero/heroimages/sarcophagus1s.jpg
http://www.heroichomosex.org/hero/heroimages/dodonahelmetdetail1.jpg

so we see it was not uncommon for greeks to march into battle naked-equiped only with their Hoplon(=shield) , spear and helmet... kind of makes sense- body armour was an expensive luxurious piece of equipment for a large part of the least prosperous soldier citizens who might not afford it OR some hoplites valued convenience and ease over safety during those stiffling summer battles...

my question is this: Is it possible that this tradition of fighting nakedness persisted and was still around 270 BC??? I know it is logical to assume that entire units of naked hoplites never exhisted (never historically described) and rather SOME hoplites in an entire phallanx would fight naked (hoplite appearance was rarely uniform and homogeneous after all)... HOWEVER!!! is it possible to assume that some guys chose to still fight naked around 270 BC forming a poorer/lighter branch-version of their hoplite brethren???(perhaps even as response against the peltast threat-sth like ekdromoi only cheaper???) IF SO !!! could you please ,please, please consider making them avalaible for some greek factions (or even exclusively to KH???) ... i know you guys are really focused on accurate historical depiction and so if your answer is no,no,no and no i totaly understand that being so true to history is THE main reason that makes this mod so uniquely amazing (no roman arcanii bullshit and stuff) ... so there ... cheers and thanx for your time!!!

(the true reason behind this thread is of course the naked wildmen-those guys are pure butch manliness and possible the coolest unit around in EB-i need a greek equivalent of those crazy SOBs!!!) :beam: :beam: :beam:

[Zett]

so we see it was not uncommon for greeks to march into battle naked-equiped only with their Hoplon(=shield) , spear and helmet... kind of makes sense- body armour was an expensive luxurious piece of equipment for a large part of the least prosperous soldier citizens who might not afford it OR some hoplites valued convenience and ease over safety during those stiffling summer battles...


I hope you know, that there is a difference between art and reality. Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam.

[luke_liddle]

Greek art depicted soldiers fighting naked as this was considered heroic. The reality was completely different. I dont think Greeks ever fought naked.

[Tellos Athenaios]

And from Art history we learn that idealized humans are often depicted naked. Heroic people are depicted naked. (Incidentally quite a few of the vase paintings depict scenes from the Illiad.) People who exemplify human beauty are depicted naked.

[Aemilius Paulus]

OMG. I still remember that thread about nudity in hoplite warfare with ByzantinePrince. Wayyy back in the very beginning of this sub-forum. I am currently looking for it to give you guys a link. Read it before you say anything else. Very useful.

Oh, and this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=43921&page=2)too. Another thread, also form the very beginning on this topic.


Tellos, help me out here :yes:. You may know the thread I am speaking of, although I did not see you that early in this forum.

[Maion Maroneios]

I remember I once read a book entitled "Πολεμος στην Αρχαια Ελλαδα", meaning "Warfare in Ancient Greece". It talked about the Gymnitai Hoplitai, or "Naked Hoplites", presenting some sources of them actually fighting in battles as religious fanatics or something.

Maion

[Hax]

WARNING: LARGE PICTURE

http://ftp.ccccd.edu/andrade/WorldLitII2333/Images/picasso.avignon.jpg

"The Intergalactic Foundation,

Dear friends, the human race has developed over the last thousand years. As you can clearly see, no more than a thousand years ago the race of man used to have strange sharply pointed angles in their skin. We currently do not know how they reproduced, as they are clearly missing primary reproduction organs. Some humans were born with a rare disease which caused their face to permanently tilt one way"

So art tells everything about how people look like or did? Riiiiiiight.

[Maion Maroneios]

So art tells everything about how people look like or did? Riiiiiiight.
No, but that is no reason to completely reject something because it is depicted on a vase. Oh, and for those that may have misunderstood my post; I'm not demanding the EB team include naked hoplites. If they were used, they were probably very insignificant to be included as a unique unit.

Maion

[Hax]

That's not what I stated. I'm just saying that just looking at vases is perhaps not completely to be trusted. Now, if four writers state that we had pointy-angled skin and no reproductive organs then it's something different. Or are there any writers who stated that Greek warriors went to war naked?

[Aemilius Paulus]

Guys, read that thread from the link I posted. This discussion is a mere repetition.

[Maion Maroneios]

Indeed, we shouldn't simply accept something as true because we saw it being depicted in a vase. Your answer was just way too "this is stupid" and I though we should at least listen to the guy. Even better would it be if someone presented some evidence against him instead of rejecting what he found.

But that's basically the trick with history isn't it? We're not able to actually prove something based on vases or descriptions. It's not Mathematics, you cannot prove something that easily. You just rely on archeological evidence, inscriptions, vases etc. and create an oppinion, which (most times) doesn't necessarily apply to reality. You just see were the something points to, and accept it as a possible fact.

Maion

[Hax]

Indeed, we shouldn't simply accept something as true because we saw it being depicted in a vase. Your answer was just way too "this is stupid" and I though we should at least listen to the guy. Even better would it be if someone presented some evidence against him instead of rejecting what he found.

Please, don't act so morally.

It's actually called ironic criticism. I'm not saying that what he stated "is too stupid", as you put it, and although my answer wasn't really constructive, I'm now saying that he could bring up some evidence by writers that stated that Greek warriors fought in the nude.

[Maion Maroneios]

Being ironic equals making fun of someone or something, you know. At least someone may feel offended by it. And I believe you undersood what you did yourself, so no need to take this further.

Maion

[ARCHIPPOS]

"I'm now saying that he could bring up some evidence by writers that stated that Greek warriors fought in the nude"

errrr, ok to my knowledge there are no historical passages reffering to naked hoplites but then again my knowledge of ancient literature is limited at best... so all we have so far are such depictions which could indeed be stylized art and not actual real life representations... such evidences are circumstancial and certainly not helpful in reaching a definite conclusion... but clearly the question still stands...

[Watchman]

Didn't the Greeks find the stark heroic nekkidness of the Gaesatae just as jarring as the Romans, though ?

[Hax]

On a more serious note, I have found a passage in this book:

http://books.google.nl/books?id=9bIdOjvocwwC&pg=PA59

[the man with no name]

Well if what Maion says is right, then the naked hoplites could be like druids except naked. Sarcasm said that in Spain they have naked ppl. on commercials. He's right. It's not like guys or girls will never see penises, balls, and breasts in their life. They're gonna have to deal with it eventually if they get married... Ever thought about that? :idea2:

[A Very Super Market]

They probably have. Any proof of naked hoplites? If not, then there is no following argument.

[Cute Wolf]

just give KH the ability to recruit Urodusios anywhere... then you can RP Naked hoplites:2thumbsup:

Or create a new, naked skin for Hoplitai Haploi, increase their attack and charge, reduce their armor up to 1, give them, very_hardy trait, and frighten_infantry trait... that should be nice...:laugh4:

[antisocialmunky]

ARCHIPPOS you fool, you forgot to mention that hoplite kit came standard with wings!

http://www.mystudios.com/art/ancient/greek/greek-sarpedon-vase.jpg


And they fought Bartix sky demons!
http://eternallycool.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/ron-hutt-3.jpg
http://eternallycool.net/?p=877


ALSO:


http://www.ac-creteil.fr/lettres/pedagogie/la/louvre/hoplite2.jpg
Was I the only one who thought the 3 hoplites in the middle were chicks until halfway down? I didn't know that Greeks invented the TRAP...

[Celtic_Punk]

a specific scene we'd all like to forget from Borat just unfortunately popped into my head. Even more unfortunate is that I can still taste it on my mustache.... LOL

[ARCHIPPOS]

ok i've given the matter some more thought and reconsidered some of my original assumptions:

1.It's not logical to think that hoplites would fight in the nude due to practical reasons (in order to maintain mobility or bc they couldnt afford the body armour) ... the reason being that even the poorest most lowly citizens could certainly afford to wear some cloth (kinda like the hoplitai haploi are depicted in EB), which would allow them great mobility + some protection from sun or cold...

2.IF naked hoplites truly exhisted their motives for fighting in nude would have been of pure ritual or symbolic nature... Hax has posted a passage tracing cultural remains of fighting in nude throughout the mediterranean...the passage states that "some backward areas of Greece still fielded naked fighters in classical and hellenistic times" the writer however does not cite his source on this-he also does not speak specificaly of hoplites (could he be refering to peltasts or other psiloi???) ... the writer also states that the marauding Gauls influenced Greeks in their literary depiction of heroes (again the idealized naked hero theory) ...the most interesting and revealing part of this passage follows close after though!

" Plutarch likewise thought of the Spartan Isadas who in 375 BC flung himself naked into battle that his courage earned him the protection of some God"

So finally a written source... however 375 is a long way from 272 BC ... again the ritualistic nature of nude fighting (=earned him the protection of some God) , the motif of battle frenzy,self abandon and ecstasy ... Sadly the passage kills my claims ... naked hoplites must have exhisted but we see that their presence was rare and immediately gained some anecdological value as sth strange and out of the norm... so again as Maion mentioned "they were probably very insignificant to be included as a unique unit"...

It's a shame really bc they would have made one hell of a unit... :thumbsdown:

[Tyrfingr]

Anyone stopped to think that, maybe, the nude hoplites on vases and in other hellenic art is perhaps an romantic, artistic renderition? The psychological value of depicting your countrymen as muscled warriors, so brave they even fights nude, must have been quite huge on the common man.

[Maion Maroneios]

Anyone stopped to think that, maybe, the nude hoplites on vases and in other hellenic art is perhaps an romantic, artistic renderition? The psychological value of depicting your countrymen as muscled warriors, so brave they even fights nude, must have been quite huge on the common man.
Indeed, nudity was praised in Ancient Greek society. A strong, muscled and clean body was the norm in those times. Obesity was frowned upon, which is basically the exact opposite with American society (with over 70% of the population being overweight IIRC). Depicting your warriors, as you and others correctly stated, nude was a way of boosting one's bravery.

Maion

[Ghaust the Moor]

Couldn't you just copy urodusios, make them fight in a phalanx, then maybe give them the hoplon and helmet. Or would you make something from scratch?

[Phalanx300]

Indeed, nudity was praised in Ancient Greek society. A strong, muscled and clean body was the norm in those times. Obesity was frowned upon, which is basically the exact opposite with American society (with over 70% of the population being overweight IIRC). Depicting your warriors, as you and others correctly stated, nude was a way of boosting one's bravery.

Maion

Yep, also remember this story of a Spartan when his camp was attacked he charged in naked and was greatly praised for it. Though jugding from the whole story it was more a exception that Spartans fought naked and thus did wear armour. :clown: Probably the same with other Greeks as well.

[Maion Maroneios]

Indeed. Even if they did fight naked, I believe they Gymnitai were simply not important enough to be represented with a unique unit. It is true though, that an unarmoured hoplite would had much more maneuvrability that a fully-armoured one, but in a hoplite vs hoplite fight, the armour would make all the difference. Imagine yourself being naked and sandwitched between your enemy pushing you behind and your allies pushing you forwards. Not very pretty, if you ask me.

Maion

[ARCHIPPOS]

perhaps the most historicaly accurate way to feature those guys would be a retinue member for the KH FM ... say after 10 victorious battles or so ( to represent the historic rarity of those gymnitai) the said FM could get a yelling crazy looking bastard in a corinthian helmet with the description:

"this man counts an eccentric and fearless warrior in his ranks of bodyguards who prefers to go naked into battle: +1 valour in combat , +1 troops morale, -1 chances of casualties recovering afer battle " or sth in these lines...

But frankly is it worth it??? go into the trouble of editing and modifying traits for a lame looking 1X1 cm pic and the opportunity to portray this exciting but rare aspect of hoplite warfare??? i dunno...

"here lie the naked hoplites obedient to EB's law of historic realism"

[Maion Maroneios]

If you ask me, no it isn't.

Maion

[IrishHitman]

Indeed. Even if they did fight naked, I believe they Gymnitai were simply not important enough to be represented with a unique unit. It is true though, that an unarmoured hoplite would had much more maneuvrability that a fully-armoured one, but in a hoplite vs hoplite fight, the armour would make all the difference. Imagine yourself being naked and sandwitched between your enemy pushing you behind and your allies pushing you forwards. Not very pretty, if you ask me.

Maion

And slightly homoerotic as well :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

[Maion Maroneios]

Well, did you know that (due to fear and concentration) you never get an erection when battling? Same goes when you sport intensively. IIRC, the andrenaline rush causes the penis to shrink. Basically the same that happens with men who take andrenaline injections.

Maion

[Cute Wolf]

https://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/Cutewolf/Gymnoi.jpg
That was my solution to your problem... made them replace the standard hellenic flagbearer in KH Bodyguards:laugh4:, and add, frighten_infantry trait to them...

[Maion Maroneios]

https://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/Cutewolf/Gymnoi.jpg
That was my solution to your problem... made them replace the standard hellenic flagbearer in KH Bodyguards:laugh4:, and add, frighten_infantry trait to them...
:smash:

Maion

[ARCHIPPOS]

how the heck did you do that???

[Cute Wolf]

Just replace the officer line in KH bodyguards with celtic uirodusios model....:laugh4:

[Ghaust the Moor]

https://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/Cutewolf/Gymnoi.jpg
That was my solution to your problem... made them replace the standard hellenic flagbearer in KH Bodyguards:laugh4:, and add, frighten_infantry trait to them...Wow, that is epic.

[Celtic_Punk]

IF this was true in any sense, why would my ancestors' groups of naked warriors be so scary to the Mediterranean people? I think that if a Greek tried to join your phalanx naked, he'd be branded a barbarian and cast out, rather than held as a hero.

[Ibrahim]

I dunno about greeks, but one mubaariz (dueller) went to duel naked, or at least half naked.

then again, Arabs have a history of odd fighting techniques...

[ARCHIPPOS]

"IF this was true in any sense, why would my ancestors' groups of naked warriors be so scary to the Mediterranean people?"

weeeeeell... we see that Greeks viewed such naked warriors as sth exceptional and rare within their own battleline, a leftover from heroic,mythical,ahistorical times ... a cultural eccentricity if you will...
and then suddenly they were faced with masses of naked ,huge Gauls in war ecstasy for whom fighting naked was not an exception but the norm... that could explain the psychological impact of naked Gauls on Greeks... they were familiar with nude heroes but never seen it incorporated "en masse" into an army...

[Rilder]

Now just imagine if we didn't stop doing this, and heroic soldiers would get their picture taken nude.

[Celtic_Punk]

We didn't... My mate from basic showed up during a mortar barrage wearing nothin but his body armour and helmet in Afghanistan. Sure he was in the shower, but he was showing up for battle naked... so does that count?

[Ca Putt]

I just think they felt like little boys again :D

Well maybe the nudity was just one fragment of the Intimidating effect of Naked Warriors whereas a equally important aspect was that they appeared somewhat "crazy" and people usually don't look forward to encountering a (naked) Madman with a Sword. they probably knew of the Berserk-ish impact of the Gaesatae, probably that made them even more "scary". Apart from that, respecting Naked Warriors as heroes may have lead to thoughts like "Help, were fighting against Heroes, were doomed, Zeus help us!"

[ARCHIPPOS]

i've taken a look at an EB II preview yesterday ... and i was amazed to see that they actually featured a non homogeneous looking hoplite phallanx!!! you could see different shield patterns,helmets etc within a unit!!!! so perhaps the boys at EB team could consider throwing a few naked hoplites in the bunch??? that would reconcile historical accuracy with extreme coolness:yes::yes::yes:

here's the link btw!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGff-muPIis

[antisocialmunky]

I just think they felt like little boys again :D

Well maybe the nudity was just one fragment of the Intimidating effect of Naked Warriors whereas a equally important aspect was that they appeared somewhat "crazy" and people usually don't look forward to encountering a (naked) Madman with a Sword. they probably knew of the Berserk-ish impact of the Gaesatae, probably that made them even more "scary". Apart from that, respecting Naked Warriors as heroes may have lead to thoughts like "Help, were fighting against Heroes, were doomed, Zeus help us!"

Yes, for example Beserkers would taunt the enemy by mutilating themselves infornt of the battle lines.

[ARCHIPPOS]

The battle of Little Big Horn (1876)
"Sitting Bull was spiritually prepared for the assault, for he has sliced his hands , removing 50 small pieces of skin from each. After his self-mutilation he had the dream vision in which he has seen soldiers "falling from the skies like grasshopers,with their heads down and their hats off"

(http://books.google.com/books?id=t2x6RcaKljMC&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=little+big+horn+self+mutilation&source=bl&ots=_qzkOs7tpi&sig=2IEOwCslb94O9-1sC3XoQ1kjFFY&hl=el&ei=2iQlStexJo6a_AaO_dXwBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA10,M1)

Again the motif of the charismatic hero-warrior, the ritualistic self abandon , the sacrificial self destruction in the service of his people... seen amongst naked warriors, berserkers, hero prophets, zealots etc...

[AntonineWall]

"
falling from the skies like grasshopers,with their heads down and their hats off

..and carrying bandaids with their pockets stuffed with savlon antiseptic, for heroic or not, Sitting Bull's hands were smarting like the blazes and he was dearly wishing he had not read about the celtic naked fanatics."