Compulsory MMR vaccination?

[PBI]

Calls to make MMR jab compulsory in UK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8078500.stm)



Uptake of the MMR vaccine fell sharply after controversial research wrongly linked it to a raised risk of autism.

One in four children under five has not had both MMR injections, which are needed to give full protection against measles, mumps and rubella.

As a result there have been measles outbreaks across the country, and experts at the Health Protection Agency now fear a measles epidemic is likely.

Sir Sandy said: "Our attempts to persuade people have failed.

"The suggestion is that we ought to consider making a link which in effect would make it compulsory for children to be immunised if they are to receive the benefit of a free education from the state."

Linking vaccinations to school admission is controversial but common in other countries. It happens in the US, most of Australia, Spain and Greece.

But in the UK vaccination programmes have relied on persuading and educating parents that immunisation is not only beneficial to their children but to society as a whole.

I'm unsure quite what to make of this. On the one hand when wearing my "liberal" hat, I am wary about the idea of effectively forcing unwanted medical procedures on people, even if it is ultimately for their own good.

Then again, when wearing my "scientist" hat I understand (in broad strokes) how epidemics work, that one requires a certain minimum percentage of the population to be vaccinated in order to prevent any outbreak from spreading. I can certainly see the argument that parents who refuse the vaccine for their child are endangering not only their own child but others as well.

Above all I can't shake a certain sense of dismay that a) a large percentage of the population distrusts the scientific community to such an extent as to be willing to disregard the mountains of evidence showing no link between MMR and autism, and b) so many people have such a poor grasp of probability as to refuse any vaccine which is not "risk-free", as opposed to simply less risky than the disease it protects against.

I think my current position is to be in support of requiring vaccinations in order to attend school, although I might stop short of making the MMR outright compulsory for everyone. I would be interested to see what others think, however.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think I generally agree with you, it's a tricky question. Ultimately, people should feel a responsibility to vaccinate for the sake of their children and everyone else.

The problem is they don't, and making it compolsory won't help.

When AIDS was a big thing in the '80's there was a big, and very scary, propoganda campaign. The same should be done here, start hitting people with what happens to people who actually get these diseases.

[Hosakawa Tito]

These vaccinations have been compulsory for US school children since I was a child, and I'm 51. No proof of treatment, no school for your 5 year old. I would imagine that private schools have the same requirements here, and none but the well to do families can afford to send their kids to a private institution...not to mention that not too many well educated parents are going to be against innoculating their children.

[CountArach]

They were compulsory for me when I went through High School (The government sent people to each school to give these vaccinations out, which in itself was far more convenient for everyone than arranging individual trips to the Doctor) and I have no problem with that. Forced immunisation is the only way that we can truly cleanse ourselves of some of these serious diseases - look at Smallpox for example. The forced immunisation of millions of people led to the eradication of the virus. While I am by no means saying we will eradicate measles, what I am saying is that we will be saving many people from suffering if we do force them to have these vaccinations.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

They were compulsory for me when I went through High School (The government sent people to each school to give these vaccinations out, which in itself was far more convenient for everyone than arranging individual trips to the Doctor) and I have no problem with that. Forced immunisation is the only way that we can truly cleanse ourselves of some of these serious diseases - look at Smallpox for example. The forced immunisation of millions of people led to the eradication of the virus. While I am by no means saying we will eradicate measles, what I am saying is that we will be saving many people from suffering if we do force them to have these vaccinations.

Fair points, I had my second jab some time around GCSE's or A-Levels, can't remember, but I never questioned whether I could opt out. I just did it.

As to smallpox, I suppose there's an arguement that the more serious a disease the greater the justification for forced immunisation. That begs the question of how serious we think the MMR are.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think if they are offered and given in schools, then people will just get them anyway. Usually there's one kid in the class who doesn't because their parents didn't want them to, but that doesn't pose a serious health risk (or does it, I have no idea)?

[Beskar]

Vaccines make illnesses go extinct, if you don't vaccinate, you end up dying or being crippled by illnesses from the stone ages.

[PBI]

I think if they are offered and given in schools, then people will just get them anyway. Usually there's one kid in the class who doesn't because their parents didn't want them to, but that doesn't pose a serious health risk (or does it, I have no idea)?

As I understand it, one of the aims of vaccination is to ensure that enough of the population have been vaccinated to ensure that the if one person does contract the disease, they will on average infect less than one other person, so it will not spread widely and become an epidemic. As I understand it, there is generally a fairly clearly defined cutoff percentage below which the disease will almost always spread throughout the unvaccinated population, and above which it will not be able to spread widely, so that the few people who aren't vaccinated will be effectively protected by those who are. Thus it's not a problem if only a few people are unvaccinated, but if large numbers are unvaccinated (as with MMR) it's possible for the disease to spread among them. I don't know the exact number for measles, although I believe they are generally in the 90%ish range. Almost certainly more than 75%.

The problem though with giving the vaccine at school, is that then anyone under the age of 5 is unprotected. Doesn't measles most often affect kids under that age?

[Pannonian]

Fair points, I had my second jab some time around GCSE's or A-Levels, can't remember, but I never questioned whether I could opt out. I just did it.

As to smallpox, I suppose there's an arguement that the more serious a disease the greater the justification for forced immunisation. That begs the question of how serious we think the MMR are.
If they're being done as a package, they're probably the most common and potentially serious diseases to affect children at an early age. I haven't looked at mumps and rubella yet, but in another thread I looked up measles, and it spreads very easily, and among babies and populations with insufficient nutrition or access to medical care, it's a serious killer (1 million+/year according to the WHO site).

[Aemilius Paulus]

Amazing how a parent is not willing to have their child suffer the .002% chance of autism but willing to put them at serious risk of dying or being incapacitated from polio, tetanus, rabies, or even chickenpox and flu. Not all people are smart enough to think for themselves, and a good government should take care of those feeble-minded.

[Crazed Rabbit]

The whole 'vaccines cause autism' thing is truly idiotic and about as scientific as creationism.

But still I hesitate to force them on people, even if they are "for their own good."

CR

[LittleGrizzly]

From everything i hear and read these vacanations are completely safe, assuming im not somehow missing out on something allow me a rant...

Stupid damn parents! you want measles mumps or rubella (they the right ones ?) thats fine you can go around unvacinated all day long for all i care, im vacinated you won't harm me... but forcing you kids into risk because of your own stupidity is criminal negligance as far as im concerned...

Make it compulsory... im completely happy to abandon my usual libetarian stance on this... adults who don't want it... fine! for children compulsory!

[seireikhaan]

Absolutely people should be required to vaccinate the kid. As far as I'm concerned, its negligence if you don't.

[Vladimir]

Mandatory vaccinations aren't for the person's own good, they are for the good of others. Court mandated cancer treatment is a different story. As long as the vaccinations are deemed "safe" then I agree.

[rory_20_uk]

I'm for it. I've seen a child with what happens if you get cerebral measles.

I think that those who don't get their children vaccinated are extremely selfish. As long as everyone else does, their darling doesn't need the jab.

I had parents come in with their 5 year old worried what a rash was, and they asked if it could be measles.

I smiled at them and said I'd no idea as I've never seen it; if it indeed was measles it possibly could be fatal for all I knew - I'm not great at diseases that should be all but eradicated in a first world country. My motive was hopefully to shock the smug "holistic medicine is the best" morons to get the jabs.

~:smoking:

[Hosakawa Tito]

I think a lot of the misconceptions about measles, mumps, rubella, is that it's been quite a while, probably since the 1950's or 1960's, that countries like the UK, USA, and the like have suffered any serious out-breaks and major health complications from them. Over the generations many people have forgotten how serious these diseases could be. I bet people from third world countries have a much different perspective & attitude toward these vaccines.

[Aemilius Paulus]

As far as I'm concerned, its negligence if you don't.
Hmmm, interesting. Why don't we make a law saying you can get a waiver for the vaccines, but you will be prosecuted for negligence if your child dies :devilish:? Let them take chances.

And yes, Hosa could not be more correct. People are complacent because they forget the past; the history; the horror.

Honestly, unlike all the other movements I have seen, this recent anti-vaccine one is the only one I cannot comprehend. Can anyone explain me why those parents risk their children contracting grave viral diseases to avoid that minuscule chance of autism, which is not even certain? I mean seriously, what are those parent's arguments :dizzy2:?? I am lost here... Usually parents lose all common sense, rationality, and logic just to protect their kids, so why the noise now? Or is it because they believe autism to be a more clear and present danger?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Hmmm, interesting. Why don't we make a law saying you can get a waiver for the vaccines, but you will be prosecuted for negligence if your child dies :devilish:? Let them take chances.

And yes, Hosa could not be more correct. People are complacent because they forget the past; the history; the horror.

Honestly, unlike all the other movements I have seen, this recent anti-vaccine one is the only one I cannot comprehend. Can anyone explain me why those parents risk their children contracting grave viral diseases to avoid that minuscule chance of autism, which is not even certain? I mean seriously, what are those parent's arguments :dizzy2:?? I am lost here... Usually parents lose all common sense, rationality, and logic just to protect their kids, so why the noise now? Or is it because they believe autism to be a more clear and present danger?

Because they believe measles can be cured with a simple herbal remedy.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Because they believe measles can be cured with a simple herbal remedy.
Sarcasm I sense...

But yes, that is yet another thing exasperates me in today's popular medicine/science. People are obsessed with "natural", "herbal", "remedies". I watch in disgust as my supposedly intelligent parents shell out and binge on it. Sure, that stuff is useful, but honestly, it does better job of cleaning out one's pockets than actually curing anything. An exorbitantly expensive placebo at best. Well, y parents were not much science nerds as I am :shrug: