Carthies in the new world? [Archive]

Aemilius Paulus

06-11-2009, 01:31

Erm, North Atlantean and Mediterranean shipbuilding were two *very* different fields you know... and even then the Scandinavians "island-hopped" by way of Iceland and Greenland.
You certainly have a point about island hopping, and it is known that Phoenicians never strayed far from the shore, nor planned for it. The only possible way for them to reach Americas would seem to me as through a storm that flung them from Africa to Brazil in the narrowest part of Atlantic between the two. And AFAIK, there are speculation that the same happened to Egyptians as well as Phoenicians.

One must also remember the voyages of Hanno the Navigator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanno_the_Navigator)and most importantly Pytheas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas), the two greatest tales of Exploration of Antiquity. I suggest all of you who have not yet read about Pytheas read that Wikipedia article. I have my own book on him which I refer to, but given the length of the Wiki article, I am certain it will be quite useful too.

Since I am too lazy to type more, especially since I have already posted his story on .Org, I will simply copy+paste the first paragraph of Wikipedia on him:
Pytheas of Massilia (Ancient Greek Πυθέας ὁ Μασσαλιώτης), 4th century BC, was a Greek geographer and explorer from the Greek colony, Massilia (today Marseille, France). He made a voyage of exploration to northwestern Europe at about 325 BC. He travelled around and visited a considerable part of Great Britain. Some of his observations may refer to Stonehenge, the earliest report (if true). Pytheas is the first person on record to describe the Midnight Sun, polar ice, the first to mention the name Britannia and Germanic tribes and the one who introduced the idea of distant "Thule" to the geographic imagination. His account is the earliest to state that the moon is the cause of the tides.

He reached Britain, Sweden, Denmark and most likely Iceland (he called it Thule and mentioned its volcanoes, and Iceland is the only place that has volcanoes in that part of the world)

Watchman

06-11-2009, 01:36

True, but you can do most of *that* sailing by coast-hugging - which indeed was more or less the standard for Mediterranean sea travel, far as I know. Not that Atlantic and Baltic sailors didn't mostly rely on that approach too of course.

Doesn't yet speak of ocean-crossing level of shipbuilding and navigational chutzpah, though obviously an even more salient issue is why they'd have sent an expedition into that featureless desert of open water in the first place...

The "blown astray by storm" theory might work, though I've my doubts about period Mediterranean ships' ability to withstand Atlantic storms - and there's also the obvious question of how they'd then get back...

the man with no name

06-11-2009, 01:51

I think it's true, What about you?:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Aemilius Paulus

06-11-2009, 02:08

Doesn't yet speak of ocean-crossing level of shipbuilding and navigational chutzpah, though obviously an even more salient issue is why they'd have sent an expedition into that featureless desert of open water in the first place...
Right again. I read that even Phoenicians were deathly afraid of the wide expanses of the Atlantic, and their coast-hugging was nowhere more apparent than in their Western African voyages.

The "blown astray by storm" theory might work, though I've my doubts about period Mediterranean ships' ability to withstand Atlantic storms - and there's also the obvious question of how they'd then get back...
Alto ugh I do not agree with the theory either, taking your stance on this issue, I do have to point out that storms are too unpredictable and varied to accurately assess the chances of a ship surviving it. There are simply too many factors and variables here.

As for the getting back part, there is nothing like desperation they say... Now, the main problem here is that the marooned Phoenicians would have no idea about the local winds and currents, much less the distance of water required to cover, as it is assumed that the deviation due to a storm was not accurately assesses....

Well, that is why I discount the hypothesis that Phoenicans could have made the voyage in the first place. This still, however, does not discount the possibility of Phoenicians wrecking or being trapped forever in the Americas. Which may still be possible, although, once again, I doubt it.

All this said, a brief glance at a globe(not just a map), will show the folly of such hypotheses, as the smallest distance between the Old and New Worlds is between Liberia and the triangular outer tip of Brazil. Phoenicians were not known to frequent Liberia, AFAIK. Hanno did it, and he was immortalised for it (although it is most likely he reached Cameroon, as testamented by his account of a volcano, the nearest ones which exists in Cameroon).

Cute Wolf

06-11-2009, 04:15

After reading those texts, I suppose:
1) Giving the lack of archeological evidence except that coins, we couldn't say that the Karthadastim had allready comes in America... the things will be diffrent if that coins was found on america...
2) The "Wolrd Map" printed on that coins are more likely some sort of religious symbols, or secret sign (such as runes)
3) The Phoenicians are merchants, and they concern about profits, if they really reach america, maybe the romans allready eat chocolate bars and using rubber slings...

J.R.M

06-11-2009, 05:43

Thx for all replys, i would like to say also that there is the possibility of going there accidentaly and never returning.

Poor guys.

mountaingoat

06-11-2009, 07:20

lol i'm sure it would not have sucked that badly over there.

there is the case of cocaine in ancient egypt and the olmec that seemed to bare "african features" .

there are many things that are not accounted for in history ... it would seem that much more had gone on then we are led to believe..

poke around a little , you might find some more info on this topic.

Urg

06-11-2009, 07:57

So the only evidence to support the hypothesis is a squiggle on the bottom of a coin, no larger than my fingertip?

If the Carthaginians knew about the Americas so well that they had maps on their coins, don't you think there would be some literary record?

Is there something I'm missing?

Alsatia

06-11-2009, 08:38

If there were such maps, most likely the parchment/papyrus/paper etc. which the map was drawn on rotted to dust. The Carthaginians would of not given it to the Romans, yet anyone else for that matter. If they found a way to come back and forth from America to the Meditteranean (which I myself find hard to believe) and found out how to communicate to the peoples there, they would have a monopoly in trade, as Carthaginians were more concerned with money and trade than many other things......

Cute Wolf

06-11-2009, 09:28

But then they'll sold the chocolates for romans, and made those men goes fatter and fatter... so the Carthies could win the Punic war...

Knight of Heaven

06-11-2009, 11:53

But then they'll sold the chocolates for romans, and made those men goes fatter and fatter... so the Carthies could win the Punic war...

Indeed i heard they open a Mcdonalds in Rome near aventine oficial sources say its for the good of the comerce, and the relations of between the 2 empires, "Comerce is a virtue of any civilization", so the magistrate say. however rumors talk about food poisining, also much more cases of people been fatter, they claim to be a new type of warfare, could Rome stand against this biological atack?

Well about phoenichians been in americas...well its possible, but not likely, however there is much things that arent explanable, Goat refer some of then, but if you read some ancient greek talles, we found some americas caracteristics in some of those stories, like ancient civilizations discribed by platon, who resenbles very much with the incas or the aztecs. And just some decades ago we thought troy was a Myth, and then someone found the ruins of troy, greek talk about centaurs, could they be talking about those steep warriors who ride a horse sense little childrens?, they talk about amazons, could they talk about sarmatians womens?
Now theres a guy o claims to found atlantida in south america in Andes,the city of Tiwanaku they found a lake, and a ruins of port with large boats capable to do the atlantic travel, they existed in 17.000 B.C to 12.000 B.C acording to platon they did comerce in the mediterrain. True to be told its very possible but we just dont kown and its hard to find real evidence....i wish i had a time machine :) alltought the ancient south americas civs are for a new discussion.

Andronikos

06-11-2009, 12:52

That coin could depict anything and if it is map, that "America" could be Azores or Canary Islands.
With present evidence I strongly doubt that Carthaginians were in America. Yes, some adventurers got there on antique designed ships, but they had a lot of knowledge the Carthies didn't, they knew that there is land, they knew winds, currents. If some ship got it further from the coast, they saw, that there is nothing but water, no land, no goods, no people to trade with, so it is likely they turned back.

Romans did good job destroying everything Carthaginian so the probability of finding some Carthaginian records about their voyages is low.

Apázlinemjó

06-11-2009, 13:37

It's not America, it's Atlantis! Lawl.

Andronikos

06-11-2009, 14:17

Yeah, Atlantis, that only shows how that website underestimates that coin, America, huh? :D

Conradus

06-11-2009, 14:47

Well about phoenichians been in americas...well its possible, but not likely, however there is much things that arent explanable, Goat refer some of then, but if you read some ancient greek talles, we found some americas caracteristics in some of those stories, like ancient civilizations discribed by platon, who resenbles very much with the incas or the aztecs. And just some decades ago we thought troy was a Myth, and then someone found the ruins of troy, greek talk about centaurs, could they be talking about those steep warriors who ride a horse sense little childrens?, they talk about amazons, could they talk about sarmatians womens?

Isn't the whole Atlantis myth based on the eruption of that volcano which was amongst the causes of the downfall of the Minoan civilzation and Plato's vision of an ideal state to compare his contempories with? I mean, we aren't searching for Socrates' cave either.

Watchman

06-11-2009, 15:05

Mind, the Incas (who were in up the damn Andes anyway, ie. across the malaria jungles of Amazon from the Atlantic) and Aztecs (who sure as Hell didn't exactly match up to anything Plato dreamed up) weren't even around yet at the time...

Drewski

06-11-2009, 15:43

An interesting point, is the generally accepted view of the re/discovery of Brazil by Pedro Cabral. He was on his way around the Cape, but sort to avoid the calms off West Africa, and catch the trade winds further west; a proven speedier method. But basically, they blew him a bit further west than he intended, and Brazil was found...

The fleet of thirteen ships left Lisbon on 9 March 1500, and following the course laid down, sought to avoid the calms off the coast of Gulf of Guinea. On leaving the Cape Verde Islands, where Luís Pires was forced by a storm to return to Lisbon, they sailed in a decidedly southwesterly direction. On 21 April a mountain was visible, to which the name of Monte Pascoal was given; on 22 April Cabral landed on the coast of Brazil, and on 25 April the entire fleet sailed into the harbor called Porto Seguro.

Now, I know Phoenician sailors (and virtually all sailors) of that time period, were loathe to leave the coast, but just maybe, some followed that route by accident.

And then who knows? On a side note, some Marine Archaeology friends of mine have been exploring the Bimini area for some years now. They are quite convinced, that they have found remains of what seem to be Phoenician type harbors in the shallow waters there..

I remain a sceptic with an open mind ~;)

Aemilius Paulus

06-11-2009, 15:45

Isn't the whole Atlantis myth based on the eruption of that volcano which was amongst the causes of the downfall of the Minoan civilzation and Plato's vision of an ideal state to compare his contempories with? I mean, we aren't searching for Socrates' cave either.
Yeah, more like the Theran civilisation which was even more advanced than the Minoans. I read a book on them, an archaeological excavation on Thera, the biggest thing in archaeology for quite some time now. There is a whole entire city on Thera, rivalling Pompeii in its preservation, which was the site of the Volcano which caused its own and Minoan death BTW (as well as probably the Moses' plagues of Egypt, since the timing was almost precise).

I suggest you read about it too, as it is almost fantastical how advanced the Therans were. Most notably their plumbing. The whole city was riddled with pipes, which led to all sorts of nifty things, including showers, bath tubs, and self-flushing toilets.

Aemilius Paulus

06-11-2009, 15:54

An interesting point, is the generally accepted view of the re/discovery of Brazil by Pedro Cabral. He was on his way around the Cape, but sort to avoid the calms off West Africa, and catch the trade winds further west; a proven speedier method. But basically, they blew him a bit further west than he intended, and Brazil was found...
~;)
That is true, but of course, his ship was built in a manner that would enable it to quite handily withstand more than just coast hugging. Caravels were the staple of the age of exploration. On the other hand, Phoenicians were the most notorious coast-huggers there could be.

They travelled more than anyone, but were just as coast-hugging as anyone else was in their days, despite their skill. They never even had the provisions for long voyages away from land. Their ships had a construction that all but made them useless in rough water. Vikings (Norse) may have built simpler ships, but yet those ships were suited for such travel, and their only weakness was the lack of storage areas, unless they were using the knorr. But knorr was a trading/transport vessel, and not as seaworthy as their trademark longboats. Hence their Island hopping - from Iceland, to Greenland, and to Newfoundland.

I could buy the Phoenicians accidentally being marooned in Brazil, but bot coming back. Just look at the map of the currents there. They all go from Liberia to the tip of Brazil, and not vice versa. Same with the winds. You would need to cross a much wider expanse of ocean for the voyage back.

Cimon

06-11-2009, 15:58

Yeah, more like the Theran civilisation which was even more advanced than the Minoans. I read a book on them, an archaeological excavation on Thera, the biggest thing in archaeology for quite some time now. There is a whole entire city on Thera, rivalling Pompeii in its preservation, which was the site of the Volcano which caused its own and Minoan death BTW (as well as probably the Moses' plagues of Egypt, since the timing was almost precise).

I suggest you read about it too, as it is almost fantastical how advanced the Therans were. Most notably their plumbing. The whole city was riddled with pipes, which led to all sorts of nifty things, including showers, bath tubs, and self-flushing toilets.

The site is called Akrotiri, and I highly suggest visiting it. It it well worth one's time. As Aemilius Paulus says, the city was highly advanced for its time, including two story houses and advanced plumbing. It is very well preserved, and while visitors don't have the same freedom to walk around as they do at Pompeii, one can still get the gist of the city. Plus, Santorini is beautiful in and of itself.

The island used to be a center land mass, surrounded by water, which was in turn encircled by an outer ring of land, such that it looked like a target. When the volcano (which of course was the entire island itself) exploded, half of the center section and a good portion of the outer ring slid beneath the surface of the water, so that it looks like someone took a butcher's knife and just hacked through the center of the place.

AP - perhaps you can refresh my memory: isn't Akrotiri viewed as a Minoan colony?

As to the Carthaginians in the Americas, I have to remain skeptical. It's not totally outside the realm of possibility (try to prove a negative), but it certainly seems extremely unlikely. The theory is mostly based on completely spurrious evidence such as the Bat Creek Inscription, and (if memory serves) a supposed rock carving in Brazil that is probably not a carving at all, but rather a natural formation. It's all rather dubious, at best.

Aemilius Paulus

06-11-2009, 16:12

The site is called Akrotiri,
Interesting. So that is what they call it in vernacular? That is not what they called it during the excavation. I suppose the government gave it that name?

The government, BTW, is a great leech and a pest for that site. After the site was excavated, they opened it to tourism, but just as Pompeii, the site is not air-conditioned and climate controlled as it should be, leading to degradation. The governments of Italy and Greece siphon millions from the site, but do not even maintain it, much less continue the digs. As we know, much of Pompeii and Akrotiri is yet to be excavated.

Not with the current lack of funding though. As the lead archaeologist of the Theran site remarked, perhaps it would be better to leave the site alone until in the future, history will perhaps be better appreciated and the site will actually be protected from the outside climate, in the contrast of today's situation.

AP - perhaps you can refresh my memory: isn't Akrotiri viewed as a Minoan colony?
Not at all. Independent civilisation according to the both lead excavationists. Two generations of excavations there were BTW. First a Greek, and then an Anglo-Saxon.

As to the Carthaginians in the Americas, I have to remain sceptical. It's not totally outside the realm of possibility (try to prove a negative), but it certainly seems extremely unlikely. The theory is mostly based on completely spurrious evidence such as the Bat Creek Inscription, and (if memory serves) a supposed rock carving in Brazil that is probably not a carving at all, but rather a natural formation. It's all rather dubious, at best.
Yeah, same here. I mean, I want to believe the Phoenicians did it, but as a natural sceptic, cynic, and a pessimist, I doubt it. The sensationalist nature of those discoveries does not help.

Cimon

06-11-2009, 16:20

Interesting. So that is what they call it in vernacular? That is not what they called it during the excavation. I suppose the government gave it that name?

The government, BTW, is a great leech and a pest for that site. After the site was excavated, they opened it to tourism, but just as Pompeii, the site is not air-conditioned and climate controlled as it should be, leading to degradation. The governments of Italy and Greece siphon millions from the site, but do not even maintain it, much less continue the digs. As we know, much of Pompeii and Akrotiri is yet to be excavated.

Not with the current lack of funding though. As the lead archeologist of the Theran site remarked, perhaps it would be better to leave the site alon until in the future, history will perhaps be better appreciated and the site will actually be protected from the outside cliamte, in the contrast of today's situation.

No idea if the government gave that name or where it comes from. The only way I know that name is that I went there in 1999 as one leg of a travel-study program through college, and the Professor on my trip, Mortimer Chambers, (who was really great and I think fairly well known, although I am not an academic, so I'm not sure) called it Akrotiri. Now, he may have just been calling us that because we were a bunch of undergraduate students, and that's the easiest thing to call it, or perhaps there's some subset of academics that ascribe to calling it that. I have no idea. That's what he called it for us, though, so that's what I call it.

He really took us around the site and showed some things to us, and there was not a single other visitor there at the time. All the other tourists on the island were in the town of Phira, as near as I can figure. There were a few archaeologists there that he introduced us to, although the names escape me at this point. He did, however, note that the site was open-air (although covered), but that it really shoudl be better taken care of.

Not at all. Independent civilisation according to the both lead excavationists. Two generations of excavations there were BTW. First a Greek, and then an Anglo-Saxon.

Thanks for the clearup. Appreciate it.

Conradus

06-11-2009, 16:47

Drewski

06-11-2009, 19:11

That is true, but of course, his ship was built in a manner that would enable it to quite handily withstand more than just coast hugging. Caravels were the staple of the age of exploration. On the other hand, Phoenicians were the most notorious coast-huggers there could be.

They travelled more than anyone, but were just as coast-hugging as anyone else was in their days, despite their skill. They never even had the provisions for long voyages away from land. Their ships had a construction that all but made them useless in rough water. Vikings (Norse) may have built simpler ships, but yet those ships were suited for such travel, and their only weakness was the lack of storage areas, unless they were using the knorr. But knorr was a trading/transport vessel, and not as seaworthy as their trademark longboats. Hence their Island hopping - from Iceland, to Greenland, and to Newfoundland.

I could buy the Phoenicians accidentally being marooned in Brazil, but bot coming back. Just look at the map of the currents there. They all go from Liberia to the tip of Brazil, and not vice versa. Same with the winds. You would need to cross a much wider expanse of ocean for the voyage back.

Oh I agree its unlikely, but several intrepid folks (Thor Heyerdal and others) have proved similar ships capable of oceanic travel. The Phoenecian merchant ships, were actually quite a lot more sturdy than credit is often given....they were basically designed for the Med, but the Med can get quite rough at times.

Constant travel back and forth across the Atlantic? Not in EB times, we'd have some concrete evidence for it. It's too big a secret to keep hidden. But The Romantic in me, likes to believe that maybe a small fleet got lost in The Americas, and passed on their knowledge to the natives ;)

Watchman

06-11-2009, 20:24

Vikings (Norse) may have built simpler ships, but yet those ships were suited for such travel, and their only weakness was the lack of storage areas, unless they were using the knorr. But knorr was a trading/transport vessel, and not as seaworthy as their trademark longboats. Hence their Island hopping - from Iceland, to Greenland, and to Newfoundland.Actually iy's exactly the other way around; the knarrs were the very seaworthy, ocean-crossing ships with good cargo capacity (ie. supply endurance - though even these only carried enough to "island-hop" the Arctic Circle); the sleek warships were specifically the ones that couldn't be counted on to withstand the crossing to Iceland...

Fact is, the Med is a placid lake compared to the Atlantic and especially northern parts thereof (and the Baltic is only marginally friendlier, far as I know). And even it has parts that are downright notorious for their ornery weather, such as the Bay of Biscay (whose weather actually partially "spills over" through the valleys of south-central France into the Gulf of Lions, which is among the most stormy parts of the Med)... The Carthies could sail to the British Isles and explore the African coastline that well specifically because their big merchant ships were among the best of their kind in the Med, and even then they had to coast-hug something fierce.

Insofar as ship design pressures went, those two seas were pretty much different worlds.

Celtic_Punk

06-11-2009, 21:03

That is true, but of course, his ship was built in a manner that would enable it to quite handily withstand more than just coast hugging. Caravels were the staple of the age of exploration. On the other hand, Phoenicians were the most notorious coast-huggers there could be.

They travelled more than anyone, but were just as coast-hugging as anyone else was in their days, despite their skill. They never even had the provisions for long voyages away from land. Their ships had a construction that all but made them useless in rough water. Vikings (Norse) may have built simpler ships, but yet those ships were suited for such travel, and their only weakness was the lack of storage areas, unless they were using the knorr. But knorr was a trading/transport vessel, and not as seaworthy as their trademark longboats. Hence their Island hopping - from Iceland, to Greenland, and to Newfoundland.

I could buy the Phoenicians accidentally being marooned in Brazil, but bot coming back. Just look at the map of the currents there. They all go from Liberia to the tip of Brazil, and not vice versa. Same with the winds. You would need to cross a much wider expanse of ocean for the voyage back.

They COULD have done it. The Atlantic does have many storms that would devour a carthaginian ship. However, They did have the seamanship to make a crossing(navigation by stars). The fact remains that on the return trip they'd need to go more North in order to catch the current. Which they'd know nothing about. Also by the time they'd get back to the Old world, they'd be dodging German Uboats - It would take them so long, they'd run out of supplies and probably be all dead by the time the boat got to shore... Ghostship style.

Mediteran

06-11-2009, 21:17

well, all this is based on a carthaginian coin.. which would mean that if they did it, they also got back.. which is highly unlikely i think

Celtic_Punk

06-11-2009, 21:27

which by the way... looks nothing like a bloody map. It looks more like a fault in stamping rather than an actual map. Kudo's to whomever convinced an intelligent human being otherwise. Cause it sounds like bupkiss to me. I can believe ancient sailors have at sometime or another made it to America. I doubt they made it back. They thought the end of the Earth was near the West Coast of Africa and Spain. They definitely didn't send men to what was their assured doom.

IrishHitman

06-11-2009, 22:41

J.R.M

06-11-2009, 23:40

I found some crazy stuff

http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa080700a.htm

Is this even real or just some sensacionalist lies or dreams?

A Very Super Market

06-11-2009, 23:48

I would imagine that the Romans would have logged this sort of thing happening. Hellenes as well. All there is, is Atlantis, and in no way could it be described as North America.

Aemilius Paulus

06-12-2009, 00:05

I found some crazy stuff

http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa080700a.htm

Is this even real or just some sensacionalist lies or dreams?
Made up. Not possible that so much proof exists for his idea, and yet no one even considers it seriously. Not to mention, some of the stuff it mentioned were well-known hoaxes. Not a single serious historian supports such ideas. Why? For a good reason obviously. Not like it is some conspiracy here.

Prussian to the Iron

06-12-2009, 00:16

hmmmm......

this seems very interesting. however, i would be willing to bet that, had they reached the americas, then carthaginian coins would have been found somewhere here. i mean, unless there's any physical evidence, than its hard to think they could have ever visited.

i am not saying they didn't; i would be thrilled to hear that and get a mod where i can attack the incas with carthaginian and not be weird. i would just love to hear this is true, and i want to believe it, but there seem to be too many variables against it, plus the fact that no carthaginian artifacts have been found there, that its hard to.

Aemilius Paulus

06-12-2009, 02:29

however, i would be willing to bet that, had they reached the americas, then carthaginian coins would have been found somewhere here
May I ask you why?

Ghaust the Moor

06-12-2009, 02:52

hmmmm......

this seems very interesting. however, i would be willing to bet that, had they reached the americas, then carthaginian coins would have been found somewhere here.

I fail to see how. If it is an accident like it would have to be, why would a ship, bound for the south of africa, be carrying random coins. More likely to have supplies and goods to accomadate a long journey.

A hypothesis I read stated that it was possible if atlantis still existed, it could have travaled from africa and coast hugged atlantis and then arrived in south america.

Aemilius Paulus

06-12-2009, 03:10

A hypothesis I read stated that it was possible if atlantis still existed, it could have travaled from africa and coast hugged atlantis and then arrived in south america.
I would not even call that a hypothesis. Why did you mention it? I hope it was just for the lulz, because honestly, how the heck could you have an entire continent we do not know of??

If geologists today can tell what continents looked back in the Silurian, then why can they not do the same for something that happened 2,500 years ago? In any case, there are at least more than a million reasons why Atlantis in the middl eof Atlantic is false, and I do believe we all know why.

Ghaust the Moor

06-12-2009, 03:29

Also, looking at the picture of the coin shows where they may have landed. IMOO it looks like they landed in what is now labrador. Compare the coastline of north america and the coin.

http://phoenicia.org/imgs/phoenicianworldmapdtlslow.jpg

http://www.lsfoundation.org/images/cms/North_America_satellite_globe.jpg

Also, here is a chart of currents that I have drawn a scenario on.
https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q46/Ghaust813/north-atlantic-ocean-summer-current.jpg

TO
1. An flotilla of exploration vessels from Carthage sets sail for southern africa.
2. The cross through the straits of Gibraltar
3. A storm has begun to batter the Carthaginian flotilla.
4. The storm disables the carthaginian ships and they begin drift in the powerful current.
5A. They have been drifting for a week or two now.
5B. The current has slung shot them into a lateral drift parralel to the north american coast.
6. They are then oaring north against the current as land is in sight.
7. The land in canada!!!

From
1.The set sail from canada.
2. Light shear currents carry the ship south along the coast
3. Current turns and carries the ship back towards europe.
4. Currents carry ships back towards iberia
5. The straits of gibralter are within sight.
6. They return towards the mediterranean.
7. They reach carthage.

Jolt

06-12-2009, 03:36

I bet they have reached the New World. Though I very much doubt that they:

1. Reached it on purpose.
2. Reached it alive.

Jolt

06-12-2009, 03:39

I would not even call that a hypothesis. Why did you mention it? I hope it was just for the lulz, because honestly, how the heck could you have an entire continent we do not know of??

Obviously Atlantis existed. In Plato's writings, apparently he says that it sunk. However, part of it didn't, and the Atlantis successor, Bartix continued their work of world domination. Where the hell did you think Bartix came from anyway... <__<'

Prussian to the Iron

06-12-2009, 05:46

May I ask you why?

well, its quite obvious; someone on the ship had to be carrying some sort of carthaginian coin. especially if it was a merchant ship as suggested by some.

Cute Wolf

06-12-2009, 05:48

But WHEN they really reach that by themself... wait.. these paranormal links are unrealible aren't you? At least the romans will try to mount an expedition to conquer america, and now there was no USA, instead of Senatus Populus Que Americus (no, Nova Romanus) // SPQNR... because britain is still a place filled with headhurlers and woad warriors...

Conradus

06-12-2009, 08:53

Also, here is a chart of currents that I have drawn a scenario on.
https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q46/Ghaust813/north-atlantic-ocean-summer-current.jpg

Don't the currents change over time (or is that a current chart from ancient times?)

I remember reading once that one of the reasons the Vikings never settled more of Canada was that the way there was blocked because the currents changed.

Apázlinemjó

06-12-2009, 09:07

West Africa - South America path would had been easier and shorter for them, although I doubt that they had ever reached the "new" continent.

Celtic_Punk

06-12-2009, 09:10

currents do change. I doubt the currents played in their favour, otherwise we'd have seen carthaginian trade settlements.

as for carthie coins in teh americas? they'd have brought them to show teh wealth to the new people they'd inevitably meet.

Cimon

06-12-2009, 14:30

Apologies for the double post.

See post below.

(Moderator can delete this post.)

Cimon

06-12-2009, 14:31

The "evidence" provided is (as I said above) dubious at best. For example, the pottery found in Mexico is the socalled Tecaxic-Calixtlahuaca head (see Wikipedia: here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecaxic-Calixtlahuaca_head)).

It's most likely a hoax. You can draw your own conclusions, but barring serious evidence that is essentially unimpeachable, it's going to have to remain a fantastical theory in my book. A lot of these theories are based on the same type of "evidence" that Gavin Menzies offered in 1421: The Year China Discovered America. Like the evidence there, the old world theories have been pretty much debunked.

(Another example, as I posted above, is the Bat Creek Inscription, which you can read about here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_Creek_inscription)).

Andy1984

06-13-2009, 03:17

I feel free to say that while the Carthaginian-theory is based on little more than one coin, Menzies has more than one argument to support his view. While I don't take all arguments he offers, his theory is still way more convincing than the Carthaginian ships exploring the Americas.

The most important reason being: it's not because you're a great ship-builder in the Mediterranean, ocean-worthy ships are being built by accident and by even more accident floated to the Americas. You'll need experience in ocean-ship-building techniques, in surviving at sea for a prolongued time, a decent plan to sail west (including mappers), and a good deal of luck to make it back alive.

kind regards,

Andy

Leão magno

06-13-2009, 12:53

In my country there are studies about their presence here (Carthaginians). For us it seems correctly to say that some sort of merchants and exploration did occur here. There seems to have been foundings made by Portugal, and later, by ourselves.
I am not good with references, and most of them are in portuguese... but "antiga história do Brasil" de "Ludwig Schwennhagen" is quite a complete source, complete meaning it makes lots of references to works developed in USA, Germany, England, Brasil, Portugal, so on.
Anyway, for those who understand Portuguese, see this link as an extra reference " http://www.acasicos.com.br/html/fencios.htm " . If it is not enough to convince someone, at least, it may be enough to entice the curiosity for you to come and visit my country, see the sites and take your ouw decision :)
You will be very welcome :)

K-Dogs

06-13-2009, 14:03

i am not saying they didn't; i would be thrilled to hear that and get a mod where i can attack the incas with carthaginian and not be weird.
I love how you seem more excited by the prospect of a mod for this than the historical significance of it, haha.

also...

California's East Bay Walls, ancient low rock walls east of San Francisco Bay, have long been a mystery. No one knows who built them or why. In 1904, Dr. John Fryer, professor of Oriental languages at U.C. Berkeley, declared: "This is undoubtedly the work of Mongolians... the Chinese would naturally wall themselves in, as they do in all of their towns in China."

Undoubtedly Dr John Fryer, undoubtedly.

Celtic_Punk

06-13-2009, 21:33

....The most important reason being: it's not because you're a great ship-builder in the Mediterranean, ocean-worthy ships are being built by accident and by even more accident floated to the Americas. You'll need experience in ocean-ship-building techniques, in surviving at sea for a prolongued time, a decent plan to sail west (including mappers), and a good deal of luck to make it back alive.

kind regards,

Andy

this is very true. Look how unprepared the europeans were thousands of years later when they explored the Americas. It was discovered by accident too. Many voyages turned into disasters. I'm sure a lot of sinkings too, that were unrelated to piracy or war. It is my belief that if ANY Carthaginian stepped foot on the Americas, (and if he did I'm sure it was south america) he then had a new home, till his death.

this gives me an idea for a book.... Ancient version of the best book of all time "The Hatchet"
I wouldnt even tell the reader outright where he is, to make it seem much more interesting and wondrous. You'd have to figure it out, which you would eventually given that he'd inevitably encounter the animals, but descriptions would be strangely written to convey the man's unfamiliarity and his superstitious attitude to the new and unknown. I could call it... "No Way Back Again"

by the way if i see that on shelves without my name as the author... We'll have trouble hahaha

Aemilius Paulus

06-13-2009, 22:19

tAncient version of the best book of all time "The Hatchet"
You have read The Hatchet? By Gary Paulsen?? And the sequel? Those were only OK/mediocre/borderline rotten books, not to mention teen fiction. Very simple and un-sophisticated, not to mention, written by a half-amateur, despite the amount of books Paulsen wrote. Please, the best survival books are: Mysterious Island (Jules Verne) - the best of them all, Swiss Family Robinson, and of course, Robinson Crusoe and the sequel.

Sorry to trash your favourite book like that :P

Ghaust the Moor

06-14-2009, 03:55

Why do you do that? Why can't you just say it sucks and you don't like it? If the book is so poorly written, why has it won awards and is forced down every highschooler and middleschoolers throat and taught as a classic?

Cyclops

06-15-2009, 04:08

I think Jolt has nailed it. The route was just too difficult with Iron age tech. Maybe the Classical mediterranean civilisations were more advanced in some ways than the medieval Atlantic civs, but their naval architecture sucked by comparison:rtwno:.

If anyone made it, they probably weren't breathing. The likeliest route to the Americas goes to the Carribean: weren't the Caribes notorious cannibals? Then there's the return journey...

It is relatively easy to sail from the Cape Verdes to the Americas if you know they are there and take enough food and water and have ships that are high seas capable (deep enough draught etc).

I beleive the fundamental engine of the North Atlantic current has been in operation since the last Ice Age with minor variations, so the basic pattern was probably in place in Carthaginian times (I guess 700-160 BC).

It is a lot harder to come back the same way and you need top loop up toward Northern Europe to take advantage of the winds and the currents and IIRC (from Sid Meiers Pirates) the cycle of winds is seasonal and its easy to get doldrummed to death.

On the coins: Carthaginians were masters of barter (including dumb barter) and adopted coins later than their greek competitors: they would have taken and used coins if they needed them but I don't think there was a coin making culture in the Americas before the Iberians arrived. So an absence of coins is not really an argument, so much as the complete absence of even the remotest trace of anything Carthaginian.

The Vikings made one short lived settlement and even though they (and theiir parent colony in Greenland) were wiped off the map we have found documentary, oral and physical remains (at whatisname meadows). At this point it is Scandinavian scallywags 1, Levantine shorehuggers 0.

The pre-Columbian Americas were not completely cut off from Eurasia in any case. IIRC there is a copper bowl of central Asian design (with metal from a central Asian mine) found in Canada in a site with a carbon date before Columbus and after Leif. It either came with the Vikings (who got it from who? Mongols I guess?) or across the Bering strait passed from hand to hand by Inuits and Algonquins and whoever else.

Surprisingly chocolate bars never managed to make the return journey until the Conquistadores (and the ships never made it back completely full:sweatdrop:). I love Cute Wolfs' culinary warfare option: along with the armoured sombrerotoi there could be Hetaroi Xocolotloi, dispensing demoralising brown projectiles that disrupt enemy formations as the fall out to gorge themselves, rapidly outgrowing their armour (although I doubt we will see them in EB2, the team has said they will not represent Loricata Muffintopata).

antisocialmunky

06-15-2009, 04:34

We read Hatchet when we were like 12 and thought it was a great book. I still remember it fondly. Good for the age I'd say along with Holes, Ender's Game Series and Spin Offs, etc.

On a related note, there are theories now that there were many waves of Migration to the Americas from the Siberian Land Bridge, Pacific Island Hopping, Boat People from East Asia that hugged the shore, and Europeans crossing over the Ice Sheets.

Intrepid Adventurer

06-15-2009, 10:46

You know, if there isn't evidence now, there will be some in the future. If there's one thing studying history has taught me, it's that we keep discovering stuff we thought was impossible before. I would not at all be surprised if the ancient civilisations did in fact travel to the America's.

I think that phoenicia.org site isn't half bad. From what I read, there's more evidence than just a simple coin. I suggest you guys actually read the site, before being cynical. I agree there's a lot of speculation and guessing, but my gut says that in another century or so, people will be laughing at how we thought the ancient peoples could not navigate the Atlantic.

Fluvius Camillus

06-15-2009, 19:00

I recall that the Phoenicians once colonized a bay at modern day Mauretana.

~Fluvius

miotas

06-16-2009, 19:28

I think Jolt has nailed it. The route was just too difficult with Iron age tech. Maybe the Classical mediterranean civilisations were more advanced in some ways than the medieval Atlantic civs, but their naval architecture sucked by comparison:rtwno:.

Sorry but that's just bupkis. If it is possible to cross the pacific in a small raft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Balsas)(landed in my home town:2thumbsup:) then I don't think the Phoenicians would have had too much trouble surviving a trip across the Atlantic. I do think we would have heard more about it if it did happen though, but perhaps it was a closely guarded state secret that was lost when the Romans destroyed Carthage :shrug:

You have read The Hatchet? By Gary Paulsen?? And the sequel? Those were only OK/mediocre/borderline rotten books, not to mention teen fiction. Very simple and un-sophisticated, not to mention, written by a half-amateur, despite the amount of books Paulsen wrote. Please, the best survival books are: Mysterious Island (Jules Verne) - the best of them all, Swiss Family Robinson, and of course, Robinson Crusoe and the sequel.

Sorry to trash your favourite book like that :P

I've never heard of "The Hatchet" but I read the whole of "The Swiss Family Robinson" when I was 9, I remember I was rather proud of myself for reading such a big book :laugh4: It's a brilliant book, but I never did understand why there were kangaroos there. And then reading it when I was older I realised there was a whole cornucopia of plants and animals that just shouldn't have been there. Still one of the best books I've ever read though.

Apázlinemjó

06-16-2009, 22:36

Cyclops

06-17-2009, 03:56

Sorry but that's just bupkis. If it is possible to cross the pacific in a small raft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Balsas)(landed in my home town:2thumbsup:) then I don't think the Phoenicians would have had too much trouble surviving a trip across the Atlantic....

Its also possible that elephants flew out of their butts, so bupkis yerself (anyway I thought bupkis meant "nada", rather than "horsefeathers").

Any claim that the Phoenecians regularly crossed the Atlantic are nonsense at this point. There is no credible evidence to support the thesis, and they did not have the technology to regularly do this in the way that the Medieval Atlantic civilisations (Spain, Portugal, France, later Holland and England) did.

I may be wrong and I accept this, but the evidence and consensus of opinion agree that the fantasy of Phoenecian colonisation of the new world is on the crackpot shelf for now.

The Phoenecians showed no tendency to strike out in the utterly fearless manner of the mighty Polynesian seafarers. They were brave in their own way, but coasthuggers nevertheless.

Even a one-eyed drunk like me would not deny the chance that a Phoenecian vessel straggled to Brazil or the Antilles, in fact I would bet there's a sunken Carthaginian bireme just waiting to be discovered, but it hasn't been and there wasn't a "Mighty Baal" sea ferry from Utica to Aruba.

"Mighty Baal seaferry now departing, stopping Arse, Pillars of Hercules, Gades, Hy Breasil, running express to Guatamala, not stopping Barbados or St Kitts. Stow your luggage in the under-bench compartments as we will definitely be sinking before we make it home. Thank you for sailing Phoenecian & Occident""

Cyclops

06-17-2009, 04:00

You have read The Hatchet? By Gary Paulsen??...

His name is Gary Paulsen. His name is Gary Paulsen.

Sorry, OT and spammy, I apologise.

miotas

06-17-2009, 04:27

LOL.

I was just trying to point out that if a raft can make it then the Phoenician ships could have. But yes surviving repeated trips with their level of technology is highly unlikely, no doubt most of the rafts that set out never made landfall in one peice, in fact if you read the article even those rafts were in pretty bad shape when they arrived, one even sunk. If any rafts did make it with their crew alive then it would have been throught the sheer numbers of the crazy buggers setting out. Couple this high likelyhood of failure with incredibly few, most likely accidental Phoenician attempts and the chance seems extremely unlikely.

And bupkis means something of no value, worthless, so perhaps a little strong.

Fluvius Camillus

06-17-2009, 18:11

Bay of Arguin, modern day Mauretania, that's the name. I heard the Phoenicians colonized it.

~Fluvius

Apázlinemjó

06-17-2009, 18:57

Let's send the idea to the Mythbusters. Lol.

Mediteran

06-17-2009, 21:12

Let's send the idea to the Mythbusters. Lol.

hey that would be cool:beam:

Urg

06-18-2009, 05:11

Let's send the idea to the Mythbusters. Lol.

Or we could just accept it didn't happen and move on...

Does that sound bitter?

Cyclops

06-18-2009, 06:34

Let's send the idea to the Mythbusters. Lol.

Jamie (in moustachioed monotone): "Well my approach was to create a paralell universe ab initio, developing in parallel to our own up to 700 BC and then observing every single sea journey by a bireme or greater rated vessel using time lapse cameras, to see if this was possible in the same circumstances"

Adam (somewhat more flamboyantly): "Typically boring, Jamie, I've decided to blast Europe back to the middle iron age using neutron bombs, and establish a Carthaginian-approximate city state in Tunisia. They will be encouraged to sail across the Atlantic infecting them with a deadly retro-virus whose cure is only found in a certain Guatamalen rainforest flower. When they get to the Caribbean they will encounter our resident hostile Amerindians Kari and Grant armed with the chicken cannon."

Apázlinemjó

06-18-2009, 08:43

Jamie (in moustachioed monotone): "Well my approach was to create a paralell universe ab initio, developing in parallel to our own up to 700 BC and then observing every single sea journey by a bireme or greater rated vessel using time lapse cameras, to see if this was possible in the same circumstances"

Adam (somewhat more flamboyantly): "Typically boring, Jamie, I've decided to blast Europe back to the middle iron age using neutron bombs, and establish a Carthaginian-approximate city state in Tunisia. They will be encouraged to sail across the Atlantic infecting them with a deadly retro-virus whose cure is only found in a certain Guatamalen rainforest flower. When they get to the Caribbean they will encounter our resident hostile Amerindians Kari and Grant armed with the chicken cannon."

Rofl. :laugh4:

mountaingoat

06-19-2009, 04:15

They feared that the romans would be able to get the secret, that's Think about it, replacing the USA with the UPRP, United Provinces of Roman Republic. All hail the fantasy genre.

http://www.fromoldbooks.org/OldEngland/pages/0085-Roman-Eagle/0085-Roman-Eagle-q75-480x320.jpg

http://www.gosai.com/krishna-talk/graphics/satkona-picts/American-Eagle.jpg

:wink2:

a completely inoffensive name

06-19-2009, 06:45

I just want to say this is one of the more interesting threads this subforum has had for a while.

Celtic_Punk

06-19-2009, 10:14

You have read The Hatchet? By Gary Paulsen?? And the sequel? Those were only OK/mediocre/borderline rotten books, not to mention teen fiction. Very simple and un-sophisticated, not to mention, written by a half-amateur, despite the amount of books Paulsen wrote. Please, the best survival books are: Mysterious Island (Jules Verne) - the best of them all, Swiss Family Robinson, and of course, Robinson Crusoe and the sequel.

Sorry to trash your favourite book like that :P

Well, what you say won't change my mind. He wrote about a part of Canada I know and hunt. When I read the Hatchet I was 13 like Brian. I was going camping up in Algonquin the next week and my friend gave me that book. I'm happy she let me borrow it. It made my camping trip that much more awesome. Excellent book. That amateur you speak of is a woodsman first, a writer second. Give him some credit. Not everyone has to be a super nerd. Its a book meant for young teens, but as a Woodsman and a hunter I see the value in it. When I have a son, I hope he will value it as much as I have. I've never read another group of fiction books where the only thing I could say about it was "It was too short, I never wanted it to end!!!"

EDIT: I've also got to say, the Hatchet made me strive to become proficient in archery. My dad was teaching me how to use a longbow at the time, and every time I locked the arrow all I could think about was staring that big huuuge moose cow down in Brian's winter with his warbow.

Reality=Chaos

06-19-2009, 17:27

*emerges from lurking* Interesting thread this...

I kinda favour the "occasional lost Carthaginian trader* theory.... There's no doubt in my mind that had America been discovered and had those discoverers actually made it back, the Carthaginians would have set aside there fear of the open sea, but since there's no historical evidence in classical sources it just not very plausible.

I like the idea of a couple of Phoenician ships being blown of course and get marooned in the americas

@ Fluvius: I'm not familiar with that idea, but it sounds plausible enough. Point is there is a lot of coast hugging involved in that... so the fact that they got there, tells nothing about their ability to actually cross the atlantic