Do liberal gun laws make it easier to get illegal handguns in the USA?

[PowerWizard]

Do liberal gun laws make it easier to get illegal handguns in the USA?

Please try to stay on topic, and not devolve this into a general firearms debate, thx.

Before anyone throws in, NRA bumper-stickies, like "guns don't kill people, people kill people", here's my reply: and so do monkeys if you give them guns.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Do liberal gun laws make it easier to get illegal handguns in the USA?

Yes.

[Fragony]

Sure, but only fair to ask why you are asking.

[drone]

[B]Before anyone throws in, NRA bumper-stickies, like "guns don't kill people, people kill people", here's my reply: and so do monkeys if you give them guns.

If you don't give the monkeys any ammo, it's all good. :yes:

Define "liberal" gun laws. I'm not sure you really understand the situation here in the US. Gun restrictions are made at the city, state, and federal level, with large variances possible within a small land area.

[Lemur]

You're going to run into some confusion over the use of the word "liberal," PowerWizard, even though you're using it correctly.

See, here in the U.S., the liberals support conservative gun laws, while the conservatives support liberal gun laws. It makes sense if you close one eye and do a handstand.

Anyway, the supply of handguns is vast in the U.S., so obviously that makes it easier for criminals to get their hands on the things. I'm not even sure you can hold a proper debate on the subject: If carrots are cheap and plentiful, all folks (including naughty people) have better access to carrots.

[Furunculus]

Sure, and..............?

[Vladimir]

Sure, and..............?

Exactly. Where is the other shoe?

[miotas]

Sure, but only fair to ask why you are asking.
Isn't it obvious? He wants to get an illegal handgun.

I can't really vote on the poll as I've never even seen a gun.

[Aemilius Paulus]

"Do laws that make it easy to get guns make it easy to get guns?"

No wonder the liberals are winning... With such skilfully crafted polls, there is no limit to what one can do...

[Crazed Rabbit]

As Lemur said, the supply of handguns is vast.

Also, I think you need to clarify a bit; there are few handguns that are illegal in the USA. Certain cities/states ban certain handguns. What, exactly, do you mean by illegal? Do you mean illegally possessed, by either criminals anywhere or honest people in oppressive cities? After all, owning a handgun in Chicago is illegal, but if I take that same handgun to a free state, like Washington, I can legally own it.

CR

[Marshal Murat]

Please try to stay on topic, and not devolve this into a general firearms debate,
Let's have a debate on guns, but we can't talk about firearms in general...

I'd say that "liberal" (looser) handgun laws would make it harder to acquire illegal handguns, simply because it's easier to get guns, so why try to get illegal guns? One guy could buy a hundred pistols and then let his friends borrow them rather than having them buy them illegally.

[PowerWizard]

I should explain why I made this thread, hopefully, it will give more room for discussion.

Some Backroom fellas applauded liberal gun laws, saying that it enabled the stop the guy who did the shootout in the Holocaust Museum - the guards couldn't have stopped him if there weren't armed civilians.
white supremacist opens fire at US Holocaust Museum (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=117862)

The suspect had an illegal handgun. So my question: how the hell do you think liberal gun laws will prevent such gun incidents, if they - indirectly allow people to easily obtain an illegal handgun in the first place?

[Hosakawa Tito]

I should explain why I made this thread, hopefully, it will give more room for discussion.

Some Backroom fellas applauded liberal gun laws, saying that it enabled the stop the guy who did the shootout in the Holocaust Museum - the guards couldn't have stopped him if there weren't armed civilians.
white supremacist opens fire at US Holocaust Museum (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=117862)

The suspect had an illegal handgun. So my question: how the hell do you think liberal gun laws will prevent such gun incidents, if they - indirectly allow people to easily obtain an illegal handgun in the first place?

I think you need to get your facts straight first.

Stephen Tyrone Johns, the security guard who was shot to death, had opened the door for the gunman, who then raised a rifle and killed him, authorities told reporters Thursday.

[drone]

I should explain why I made this thread, hopefully, it will give more room for discussion.

Some Backroom fellas applauded liberal gun laws, saying that it enabled the stop the guy who did the shootout in the Holocaust Museum - the guards couldn't have stopped him if there weren't armed civilians.
white supremacist opens fire at US Holocaust Museum (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=117862)

The suspect had an illegal handgun. So my question: how the hell do you think liberal gun laws will prevent such gun incidents, if they - indirectly allow people to easily obtain an illegal handgun in the first place?


He had a .22 cal rifle, not a handgun.
Despite the recent Supreme Court decision, firearms are still essentially illegal within the District of Columbia. No citizen or visitor would have been able to legally possess a firearm in this case, so any gun-induced reaction by the lawful citizenry was impossible. Had he tried this across the river here in Virginia, I'm sure the good citizens of this state would have brought him down in a hail of gunfire. :rolleyes:
We don't know if the rifle was illegally owned or not. Rural Maryland is fairly conservative, so I'm guessing it was legally purchased, unless he was a convicted felon at the time of purchase. Driving into DC with the weapon is an illegal act.

[Hosakawa Tito]

He had a .22 cal rifle, not a handgun.
Despite the recent Supreme Court decision, firearms are still essentially illegal within the District of Columbia. No citizen or visitor would have been able to legally possess a firearm in this case, so any gun-induced reaction by the lawful citizenry was impossible. Had he tried this across the river here in Virginia, I'm sure the good citizens of this state would have brought him down in a hail of gunfire. :rolleyes:
We don't know if the rifle was illegally owned or not. Rural Maryland is fairly conservative, so I'm guessing it was legally purchased, unless he was a convicted felon at the time of purchase. Driving into DC with the weapon is an illegal act.


It is a federal crime for any person who has ever been convicted of a felony to possess any firearm or ammunition. Van Brunn served time back in the early 1980's, his possession of that gun was certainly illegal.

[Xiahou]

It is a federal crime for any person who has ever been convicted of a felony to possess any firearm or ammunition. Van Brunn served time back in the early 1980's, his possession of that gun was certainly illegal.

But the gun itself wasn't illegal- his possession of it was. And it certainly wasn't a handgun. The OP needs to clear some things up if he wants to have any semblance of a coherent discussion.

[drone]

It is a federal crime for any person who has ever been convicted of a felony to possess any firearm or ammunition. Van Brunn served time back in the early 1980's, his possession of that gun was certainly illegal.

Didn't know he had a record. Thanks for the heads up. :bow: Arrested in 1981 for, of all things, carrying firearms into the Federal Reserve building in DC and threatening a guard. :inquisitive:

Any idea yet how and when he acquired the rifle?

[Andres]

We had rather strict gun laws in Belgium. It didn't stop this nutter (http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1065).

Then they made the law even stricter.

It didn't stop the next nutter. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendermonde_nursery_attack)

As an aside: for the first one, they initally blamed a political party, for the second, they initally blamed the movie "Batman". Sometimes, I think some of the people working for the modern media are nutters as well.

Anyway, this isn't worth another gun thread.

The guy was a nutter. A real one. Do you think gun laws would stop somebody who is really, really crazy? No. Nothing will stop them.

Yes, it's terrifying, but it's a reality we must accept instead of blaming the behaviour of some nutcase on other people, which is what the media/politicians do when they blame laws, politics, books, websites, religions, games and what not.

Nutjobs are nuts. There is no logic involved, no strict law that could stop them. These people wake up one day and decide to go kill other people for a reason that only exists in their twisted minds. That's it.

[Hosakawa Tito]

If the authorities have traced the origin of the weapon that info hasn't been released yet. I can't believe they haven't kept closer tabs on Grandpa Wingnut, but considering his age I'm sure they didn't feel he posed much of a threat anymore.


PW, if you could wave your magic wand and get the US government to make all guns illegal tomorrow....good luck enforcing that. There are probably more firearms in the US than there are people, and just making them illegal doesn't make them disappear, especially on an unwilling populous. It's not working for illegal drugs, it didn't work during the prohibition of alcohol. Hell, the US armed forces can't confiscate all the weapons in little old Iraq, why would you imagine it will happen in the US? Better to try herding cats or figure out how to change human nature.

[PowerWizard]

Okay, I should of read up on the facts of the case, but these facts (whether he had a rifle or a handgun) are irrelevant in this discussion, what relevant is anyone can get easily get a gun in the USA. Seriously, how can you guys feel secure when a crackpot can come against you at any time, anywhere and put a bullet in your head?

[Crazed Rabbit]

I should explain why I made this thread, hopefully, it will give more room for discussion.

Some Backroom fellas applauded liberal gun laws, saying that it enabled the stop the guy who did the shootout in the Holocaust Museum - the guards couldn't have stopped him if there weren't armed civilians.
white supremacist opens fire at US Holocaust Museum (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=117862)

The suspect had an illegal handgun. So my question: how the hell do you think liberal gun laws will prevent such gun incidents, if they - indirectly allow people to easily obtain an illegal handgun in the first place?

Well others have already pointed out the errors, but I must repeat my request for you to define what you mean by "illegal handgun".

Also, here's something for you to ponder: gun free zones encourage these types of mass shootings because the attackers know no ordinary people will be armed. Look at how many of US mass shootings have taken place in "gun free zones". Now look at how many have taken place at NRA meetings.

CR

[PowerWizard]

Perhaps you missed my previous post...

[Crazed Rabbit]

You mean the one I quoted?

*sighs*

Fine, let's have at it then:

Seriously, how can you guys feel secure when a crackpot can come against you at any time, anywhere and put a bullet in your head?

I don't know what you believe about the US, but this doesn't happen. Do you view this as a real danger? I don't.

Also, banning all guns - impossibly politically - would have little effect on criminals possessing guns. That is simply the state of our Nation right now.

CR

[PowerWizard]

Also, banning all guns - impossibly politically - would have little effect on criminals possessing guns.

Prove, please.

[Reverend Joe]

Prove, please.

The UK.

[Crazed Rabbit]

There's too many guns now in circulation for any affect
Guns could also be smuggled in
Or stolen (or bought) from police
Or made
Thus the supply wouldn't be drastically impacted


For proof, look at any big city that bans handguns (like Chicago, NYC, or DC until recently) and how criminals always get guns if they want.

EDIT: This assumes you understand that criminals simply do not obey gun control laws. But I'm sure you do understand that.

CR

[Hooahguy]

Prove, please.
ok, i will try to explain why as calmy as i can.
think about it. the people who dont follow the law will get guns anyhow. but the people who do follow the law wont have guns to protect themselves with. and the police cant be everywhere.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Okay, I should of read up on the facts of the case, but these facts (whether he had a rifle or a handgun) are irrelevant in this discussion, what relevant is anyone can get easily get a gun in the USA. Seriously, how can you guys feel secure when a crackpot can come against you at any time, anywhere and put a bullet in your head?

Well, I can understand your concern seeing that making citizen possession of any firearm in your country illegal has, for all practical purposes, eliminated violent crime over there *insert rolling eye smilie*...but seriously...I stand a far greater chance of being killed in a car wreck.

[PowerWizard]

*yawns*

[Hooahguy]

Okay, I should of read up on the facts of the case, but these facts (whether he had a rifle or a handgun) are irrelevant in this discussion, what relevant is anyone can get easily get a gun in the USA. Seriously, how can you guys feel secure when a crackpot can come against you at any time, anywhere and put a bullet in your head?
i would be much more afraid of that crackpot if i wasnt armed myself.

[Dodge_272]

Under the urn, churl.

[Crazed Rabbit]

*yawns*

That's it?! So I guess I win. I'm out.

CR

[Garnier]

How can you guys feel secure when a crackpot can come against you at any time, anywhere and put a bullet in your head?
Because it almost never happens, to be honest. I'm far, far more likely to be killed by a drunk driver than shot by anyone.

Edit: Aha.. it seems my fellow Western New Yucker above has the same idea.

Oh and I had to add, without the laws it would be impossible to obtain an illegal handgun.

[Hosakawa Tito]

*yawns*

Seems my work's done here; off to herd some cats. :wacko:

[drone]

Okay, I should of read up on the facts of the case, but these facts (whether he had a rifle or a handgun) are irrelevant in this discussion, what relevant is anyone can get easily get a gun in the USA. Seriously, how can you guys feel secure when a crackpot can come against you at any time, anywhere and put a bullet in your head?

The world is a dangerous place. There are a myriad of ways I can be killed, being shot is just a small slice of the premature death pie-chart. I'm more worried about the idiot in the 3-ton SUV texting while driving than some crazed person with a gun.

The important question is, why do you care? What is up with the obsession about the US gun situation from people who don't live here? We'll die our way, you die yours. Being born has a 100% fatality rate. :yes:

[PowerWizard]

That's it?! So I guess I win. I'm out.

CR

I was becoming sleepy, sorry 'bout that.

[Reverend Joe]

I was becoming sleepy, sorry 'bout that.

Yeah, I guess the truth does tend to be boring, but it's no excuse to sleep through your opponent's arguments.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

The UK.

Which I will back up with this link. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/6180559.stm)

[LittleGrizzly]

Which I will back up with this link. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/6180559.stm)


That link merely offers prices, theres no numbers we could use to compare with American numbers...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

That link merely offers prices, theres no numbers we could use to compare with American numbers...

You can infer. Supply and demand. If they are this readily available, and there is a lot of money in the trade...

[LittleGrizzly]

You can infer. Supply and demand. If they are this readily available, and there is a lot of money in the trade...

The cheapest was £50 thats for absolute bottom end and shotguns are legal in the UK so easier to get hold of illegal ones

The handguns werent exactly cheap and machine guns were very expensive,so im thinking the supply isn't exactly great... or do you have some numbers to disprove that ?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

The cheapest was £50 thats for absolute bottom end and shotguns are legal in the UK so easier to get hold of illegal ones

Sawn-off shotguns? Legal?


The handguns werent exactly cheap and machine guns were very expensive,so im thinking the supply isn't exactly great... or do you have some numbers to disprove that?

You could buy an imitation gun for less than £100 and modify it, or a handgun for as little as £150. Not insanely cheap, but there is obviously a decent supply and a decent demand.

[Reverend Joe]

One interviewee claimed to have earned £52,000 in one week from gun crime.

[compare that price:]


In response to their findings, the university researchers said the authorities needed to do more to tackle the conversion of imitation guns into live-firing weapons.

The study found that imitation weapons could be bought for less than £100.

Sawn-off shotguns, which are often used by serious armed robbers and favoured for their "significant intimidatory value", could be bought for between £50 and £200, the report said.

Automatic weapons such as machine guns could carry a price tag of £4,000, although the cheapest went for just £800.

Handguns were cheaper if they had already been used in a crime, costing from £150, but a new 9mm model could cost between £1,000 and £1,400.

Even assuming a price tag of £1,400 for a handgun, a robbery or two could easily cover this price. After all, convenience stores often have plenty of cash on hand.

[Lemur]

Even assuming a price tag of £1,400 for a handgun, a robbery or two could easily cover this price. After all, convenience stores often have plenty of cash on hand.
Sounds like you've been giving this some thought, Reverend. Anything you'd like to tell us about how you make your rent money?

[Crazed Rabbit]

You can infer. Supply and demand. If they are this readily available, and there is a lot of money in the trade...

The cheapest was £50 thats for absolute bottom end and shotguns are legal in the UK so easier to get hold of illegal ones

The handguns werent exactly cheap and machine guns were very expensive,so im thinking the supply isn't exactly great... or do you have some numbers to disprove that ?

That's cheaper for a high priced machine gun in Britain's black market than for a legal, mid priced one, in the US. The handgun prices are comparable in range to what you'd legally buy in the US.

In the US sawed off shotguns are illegal (in general), but I can't see them going for much cheaper. Legal, non-sawed off shotguns go for $300 or so up.

So it seems that the laws aren't restricting supply. That can be inferred because a smaller supply would lead to higher prices, and these prices aren't that high.

CR

[LittleGrizzly]

Sawn-off shotguns? Legal?

One does wonder what kind of complicated proceedure beyond mere criminals turns a perfectly legal shotgun into a sawn-off variety...

Maybe said proceedure is prohibitively expensive...

What we need is some kind of expert who can describe the great complexities of this operation to us so we can decide how viable it is that regular people (or regular criminals) can carry it out....

I bet the equipment that it is done with is almost impossible to find and requires years of training to use properly...

You could buy an imitation gun for less than £100 and modify it, or a handgun for as little as £150. Not insanely cheap, but there is obviously a decent supply and a decent demand.

Its hardly a surprise the price is so low, guns used in previous crimes (and im guessing they don't tell you what kind of crimes) are hardly going to be in huge demand... and as any economist knows when something isn't in huge demand you drop the price...

That's cheaper for a high priced machine gun in Britain's black market than for a legal, mid priced one, in the US. The handgun prices are comparable in range to what you'd legally buy in the US.

In the US sawed off shotguns are illegal (in general), but I can't see them going for much cheaper. Legal, non-sawed off shotguns go for $300 or so up.

So it seems that the laws aren't restricting supply. That can be inferred because a smaller supply would lead to higher prices, and these prices aren't that high.

Was it you i was arguing economics with before ?

As any good student of economics would know there is far more in a price of a good than its availability...

It could be for example that criminals in the UK decide fairly often not to bother with guns, there is little need as the chances are if they did meet a homeowner that they wouldn't have a gun either.... so they like most criminals don't bother packing a gun meaning the whole illegal gun market is depressed by a lack of demand for goods so the illegal gun sellers drop thier prices to simulate demand...

and about a million other things it could be...

If i were to find myself some really cheap drugs in a third world country does this mean ?

A) the country has lots of these drugs
B) the price is so low as thats whats affordable to the drug takers in this country
C) I have found myself a paticularly good supplier

Theres limitless other possibilitys that effect the cheapness of these drugs but lets just pertend its ony the above 3. Would i be foolish to just assume A rather than checking out other facts...

[ajaxfetish]

Seriously, how can you guys feel secure when a crackpot can come against you at any time, anywhere and put a bullet in your head?
As has been said several times, of all the things that might kill me on a given day, getting shot is pretty low on the probability list. I'll freak out and stay inside all the time to avoid getting hit by a car long before I'll start worrying about someone pulling a gun on me.

Ajax

[Crazed Rabbit]

As any good student of economics would know there is far more in a price of a good than its availability...

It could be for example that criminals in the UK decide fairly often not to bother with guns, there is little need as the chances are if they did meet a homeowner that they wouldn't have a gun either.... so they like most criminals don't bother packing a gun meaning the whole illegal gun market is depressed by a lack of demand for goods so the illegal gun sellers drop thier prices to simulate demand...

The fact of the matter is it seems criminals can get their hands on guns for pretty cheap if they want them. You're just speculating in an attempt to hide the fact that UK gun control looks like a failure.

CR

[Lemur]

Is it wrong for me to envy New Zealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressor#Asia_.26_Oceania), where suppressed weapons are legal for everyone? Confession: I enjoy shooting, but don't much like the loudness factor. If I had a nice suppressed 9mm I'd be out plinking all the time.

-edit-

My firm belief is that every country should be allowed to have illogical, dangerous ways that people can kill themselves. Here's a question for the American Orgahs: Would you rather have autobahns without speed limits, or legal suppressed weapons?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Why can't we have both? Why can't America be the leader in the world?


Is it wrong for me to envy New Zealand, where suppressed weapons are legal for everyone?

Oddly enough, it's easier to get suppressors in many countries than in the US - they're treated like car mufflers. Instead we have a onerous permitting process that serves no purpose (And in WA state, you can't legally use a suppressor you legally own). Like so many bad things in government today, we have FDR, and his stupid 1934 law, to thank, which treated suppressors as dangerous instead of safety equipment.

CR

[Lemur]

Why can't we have both? Why can't America be the leader in the world?
'Cause the idea is you have to pick. C'mon, cough it up, rabbit. Autobahns or suppressors?

[drone]

'Cause the idea is you have to pick. C'mon, cough it up, rabbit. Autobahns or suppressors?

Autobahns. This is America, we like our weapons the way we like our cars: big and loud! :beam:

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

'Cause the idea is you have to pick. C'mon, cough it up, rabbit. Autobahns or suppressors?

It's easier to hide suppressors, so lets make the autobahns legal. Which has nothing to say about having things. :wink:

[Crazed Rabbit]

'Cause the idea is you have to pick. C'mon, cough it up, rabbit. Autobahns or suppressors?

I might have to go with autobahns because you can have guns without suppressors and I do so love going (legally) fast.

CR

[Marshal Murat]

I'd pick autobahns because you can always have gun-fights on trains, but two cars going 100mph going at it with 9mm, that's truly special.

[Husar]

Banning guns in the US would obviously be a real long-term policy, a bit like Europe perhaps. After all there was a time when a lot of people in europe were armed as well but you won't find more muskets than people here anymore although I'm sure someone will say the mafia here still got their blunderbusses and are willing to use them.

Of course since it would be such a long term policy and hardly anyone in the population wants it, the chances of it ever happening are rather slim unless the mindset of the american population changes radically and by that time, if it ever happens, we all might be a little too dead to care anymore so one wonders what the point of this discussion is except making Americans feel unsafe?

On the actual topic, of course it's easier to acquire a gun illegally when they lie around everywhere, like Lemur explained.

Also nice point about the autobahn without speed limit in 2006 we had 5091 deaths through traffic accidents here, or 0,0636375 per 1000 people. The US had 42642 in the same year or 0,14214 per 1000 people so clearly speed limits on highways cause more deaths...
That was your point, wasn't it?

[Lemur]

Also nice point about the autobahn without speed limit in 2006 we had 5091 deaths through traffic accidents here, or 0,0636375 per 1000 people. The US had 42642 in the same year or 0,14214 per 1000 people so clearly speed limits on highways cause more deaths...
That was your point, wasn't it?
The meaningful comparison would not be deaths to population, but deaths to miles/kilometers traveled. Get me that number and I'll send you a strippergram.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

The meaningful comparison would not be deaths to population, but deaths to miles/kilometers traveled. Get me that number and I'll send you a strippergram.

http://www.gettingaroundgermany.info/autobahn.htm


(3.2 per billion km in 2004) is consistently lower than that of most other superhighway systems, including the US Interstates (5.0 in 2003).

I'll keep my autobahn and lobby for a suppressor.

[Major Robert Dump]

Okay, I should of read up on the facts of the case, but these facts (whether he had a rifle or a handgun) are irrelevant in this discussion, what relevant is anyone can get easily get a gun in the USA. Seriously, how can you guys feel secure when a crackpot can come against you at any time, anywhere and put a bullet in your head?

And so the true nature of the thread emerges.

And yes, the facts are relevant, because the vast majority of the anti-gun crowd uses arguments that are either outright false, unscientific or they ignore altogether facts contrary to their belief. So you blowing off the facts is typical in cases like this.

The laws for owning a pop-gun rifle vs a handgun are vastly different, and I'm not going to bother going into detail since you can't be bothered with facts.

And I feel very safe, thank you very much, for many, many reasons.

[Major Robert Dump]

Is it wrong for me to envy New Zealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressor#Asia_.26_Oceania), where suppressed weapons are legal for everyone? Confession: I enjoy shooting, but don't much like the loudness factor. If I had a nice suppressed 9mm I'd be out plinking all the time.

-edit-

My firm belief is that every country should be allowed to have illogical, dangerous ways that people can kill themselves. Here's a question for the American Orgahs: Would you rather have autobahns without speed limits, or legal suppressed weapons?

Suppressed weapons are legal now. At least in this state, but the tax is astronomical and the purchase is reported to the ATF. The ones I have seen have all been for rifles and run from about 600-1000 dollars. Can't carry them, though, the intent I believe is for hunting.

[LittleGrizzly]

The fact of the matter is it seems criminals can get their hands on guns for pretty cheap if they want them.

Which doesn't nessecarily mean criminals do get thier hands on them often... which is all i was asking of proof for...

You're just speculating in an attempt to hide the fact that UK gun control looks like a failure.

Im speculating...? You are attempting to say the prices quoted in that article mean that guns are getting to criminals as often as the USA. Im saying it could mean a number of different things...

Im the one speculating ?

I was simply saying prices doesn't equal lots being used... im not ruling it out but that alone doesn't represent guns being used as much as the USA...

[Husar]

The meaningful comparison would not be deaths to population, but deaths to miles/kilometers traveled. Get me that number and I'll send you a strippergram.

Why? Because Americans not only use gas guzzlers but also drive around more in them and thus cause even more deaths due to pollution?
I was trying to be considerate and gave you the weighted comparison and you smack me in the face like that. That's ignoring the helpful post of EMFM of course which shows that you are wrong anyway and I want my strippergram now and one for EMFM as well!

[Lemur]

I want my strippergram now and one for EMFM as well!
By your command ... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWgt4P9Fr3E)

[Husar]

By your command ... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWgt4P9Fr3E)

Hmm, that's the one I found trying to find out what exactly a strippergram is in the first place...
I must say I'm a bit disappointed, I expected more from someone like you.
Not like it isn't hot or anything but the picture is very grainy...

[Lemur]

Good god, you are the most picky, disdainful recipient of a strippergram I ever met. Here, this one's got better video quality (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HbevKkk0IA).

[Husar]

That one was better, I say thank you and your debt is now officially gone.