View Full Version : Debate: - The Multiculturalist Experiment
It seems, having read on Dutch and Swedish multiculturalist policies, I find myself in agreement with Fragony on his views of the leniant "let's have everyone" policies that are causing problems.
For example, let's take Malmo. Malmo, the third largest city in Sweden, is 27% foreign born. The fjordman blog from Norway reports:
The number of rape charges per capita in Malmö is 5 – 6 times that of Copenhagen, Denmark. Copenhagen is a larger city, but the percentage of immigrants is much lower. And it’s not just the rape statistics that reveal a scary increase in Malmö or Sweden. Virtually every kind of violent crime is on the rise. Robberies have increased with 50 % in Malmö only during the fall of 2004. Threats against witnesses in Swedish court cases have quadrupled between 2000 and 2003. During the past few decades, massive immigration has changed the face of Sweden’s major cities, as well as challenged the viability of the welfare state. In 1970 Sweden had the fourth highest GDP per capita among developed countries with income about 6% above the OECD average. By 1997 it was at fifteenth place with an average GDP per capita 14% below average. Malmö has a heavy concentration of Muslim immigrants in particular. According to some estimates, it will be a Muslim majority city in no more then 10 years. Crime is rampant in the growing ghettos
To me, it is strange to try to somehow avoid the link of Islamist immigrants to the growing crime rate in European countries/cities that allow them.
And Europeans are getting tired of it, again, especially those in countries that allow this. It is the most likely reason why anti-immigration parties, such as Sweden Democrats or the VVP are gaining ground. It's also sadly why parties like the BNP are gaining ground.
In the United States, we've always had problems with immigrants. Today it's Mexican, yesterday it was Irish. However, due to the fact no one, excluding the Native American tribes, originally "owned" this land, Americans are probably more accepting of vast ethnic make ups.
Unlike homogenous Europe, where they have not had a large demographic change since the World Wars.
Therefore, I bring the topic of debate: Has multiculturalism failed Europe?
CountArach
06-12-2009, 01:56
Oh no, not another one...
It's high time we did something about the Irish Problem in America. I, for one, am disgusted by the drinking, fighting and wenching of these foreign-born Papists.
"But Lemur," you may ask, "aren't you, yourself half-Irish?" A lie, a dirty lie put about in pamphlets by my enemies. Do not give them credence!
After we deal with the Irish-Americans, it's high time we do something about Italian-Americans. I saw an excellent movie that had something to do with putting decapitated horse heads in old men's beds. Very upsetting! For the sake of the horses, let's get these darn Italians under control.
Multiculture as a religion = disaster.
major fail.
Hooahguy
06-12-2009, 04:45
let me post the vid you sent me. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnP-XzB_U0)
oh, and dont forget this one! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6VI_bc1j4)
last week Karl and I had a long talk about this. man, was he mad, and for valid reasons, especially after i saw those videos.
(for those who are wondering, Karl and i have become really good friends, only made better by conversations via steam and xfire.)
Strike For The South
06-12-2009, 05:30
WASP or no voting rights I say
Reverend Joe
06-12-2009, 05:37
Bleah. Correlation=/= Causation, and confuonding factorss are undoubtedly present. Prove the confounding factors are nonexistent, and I will pay closer attention.
Marshal Murat
06-12-2009, 05:38
In the United States, we've always had problems with immigrants. Today it's Mexican, yesterday it was Irish. However, due to the fact no one, excluding the Native American tribes, originally "owned" this land, Americans are probably more accepting of vast ethnic make ups.
I think the difference, however, is that we share a contiguous land-border with Mexico, while the Irish were stuck here, and could be transported in only so many ships. Plus there was land to expand.
In Europe all the land is taken, the ghettos grow upwards and become bastions of hopelessness and violence. Throw in a mixed bag of conservative religious fellows who seem to be very willing to use violence to achieve their means. With the Irish or Germans, they didn't identify as "Catholic" or "Lutheran" beyond the usual church-going but this group isn't by self-definition "Turks" or "Lebanese" but "Muslims".
This causes more problems as they constitute themselves as a homogenous group, a greater and more directed minority who are not only reluctant to accept the more "liberal" European ideas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koRlFnBlDH0) but more willing to impose their particular religion on others because it's "better" and not leave well enough alone.( It's, to me, particularly intrusive when a small minority believe that their moral standards should apply to all, and we can't prevent this because we're the "tyrannical majority")
A broad brush yes, but that's just my opinion.
The difference is that in America multiculture isn't the goal. In Sweden they want it, so badly. Americans often don't understand that multiculturalism is a religion with insane amounts of social control. Sweden has the highest rape figures of Europe, why would that be. I understand why Karl is angry. Multileftists screwed up, and they will continue to screw up because they will continue to put their society to the test, and fail. And if you say anything about it you will quikly find out that they love all of humanity but hate the people.
CountArach
06-12-2009, 07:13
And if you say anything about it you will quikly find out that they love all of humanity but hate the people.
Yes. We let Immigrants in because we hate them. :dizzy2:
Yes. We let Immigrants in because we hate them. :dizzy2:
Why does Sweden let immigrants in. Not because they have to, not because they love them, not because they need them. It's because of the suffocating social control within the leftist church that nobody says: uhm, so why do we let massive amounts immigrants in.
But hey, now they are here, and what do these lefties do? They ask everybody to integrate in a percieved reality that only exists in their leftists heads, they make orphans out of all of us.
There is a famous saying: When in Rome, act like the Romans.
In other words, if your countries possess certain tenets that is the back-bone of the country, all immigrants should accept and abide by these rules. Outside of that, there are no fundamental issues with other people immigrating into the country.
However, just as a note point, the problem with British immigration isn't Arabs/Africans, etc, it is actually other white Europeans mainly from the 2004 Expansion which caused a sharp flooding from nations such as Poland, and other areas such as Romania and Bulgaria which will increase when they join. Britain is an island and there is only so much room compared to many other countries which control vast amounts of land and damages British many areas such as keeping wage prices down and stress the social infrastructure such as the NHS/Education systems.
rasoforos
06-12-2009, 07:54
Immigrants are allowed in because the locals do not want (for unskilled labour) to do the jobs the immigrants do, or they cannot do them as efficiently (for skilled labour).
End of story. There is no conspiracy.
As for Karl's story. Ok Malmo, or whatever, has a high crime rate. Why is it the 27% of foreign born citizens to blame and not the 73% of the local boys? Doesn't anyone find it suspicious that the statistics about the percentage of immigrant and local criminals is missing?
During my spell in England I had the chance to live in areas with a high percentage of unskilled immigrants and a high crime and anti-social behaviour rate. It was mostly local chavs and yobs who found that immigrants (particularly non-white ones) were very easy prey.
There is a famous saying: When in Rome, act like the Romans.
When in Sweden, do as you please, grab that blondie at the hair and drag her into an alley and rape her untill she coughs up blood. Even if the police is allowed to arrest you (ohnoes the stats), you will get a dealing with sexuality course at most and two pats on the back if you show up once.
Immigrants are allowed in because the locals do not want (for unskilled labour) to do the jobs the immigrants do, or they cannot do them as efficiently (for skilled labour).
fuel for the fix-industry
I have to admit, I am amazed you know so much information about this in Sweden, since you are apparently from the Netherlands. I have to wonder, where are the sources of this information or was it something you picked up on, in your travels?
I would have thought for such a graphic response, there would be a lot more to it than two slaps on the back and a pint in the pub with immigrantation officers, I am just wondering what your sources are on this matter.
CountArach
06-12-2009, 08:11
Fragony, can you tell me what Sweden does to ensure that the countries these immigrants live in are good enough so that they do not have to move to Sweden in the first place? Obviously people have to have a reason to emigrate out of somewhere - what is being done to address those reasons?
rasoforos
06-12-2009, 08:21
When in Sweden, do as you please, grab that blondie at the hair and drag her into an alley and rape her untill she coughs up blood.
Yet another Fragonyism...
...the totally unfounded assumption that the 'darkies' rape our pure white blonde blue eyed girls, based, of course, on absolutely nothing. To utter that the opposite might be true is, of course, anathema and our good white heart would shudder at the mere thought of it.
Yet another Fragonyism...
...the totally unfounded assumption that the 'darkies' rape our pure white blonde blue eyed girls, based, of course, on absolutely nothing.
sure, yeah
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/02/muslim-rape-epidemic-in-sweden-and.html
what is being done to address those reasons?
wtf? Sort out your own mess
Crazed Rabbit
06-12-2009, 08:33
It seems, having read on Dutch and Swedish multiculturalist policies, I find myself in agreement with Fragony on his views of the leniant "let's have everyone" policies that are causing problems.
For example, let's take Malmo. Malmo, the third largest city in Sweden, is 27% foreign born. The fjordman blog from Norway reports:
I seem to recall hearing of this fjordman fellow, and how he's a BNP sort of person. Can't recall specifics, but I wouldn't use his blog for objectivity.
I don't disagree with the premise; I don't see the point in accepting and encouraging toleration of intolerant cultures.
CR
I seem to recall hearing of this fjordman fellow, and how he's a BNP sort of person.
Take your pick
http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&q=numbers+sweden+rape&btnG=Google+zoeken&meta=&aq=f&oq=
Incongruous
06-12-2009, 08:54
Fragony, can you tell me what Sweden does to ensure that the countries these immigrants live in are good enough so that they do not have to move to Sweden in the first place? Obviously people have to have a reason to emigrate out of somewhere - what is being done to address those reasons?
Sorry what?
WTF, why the heck do Swedes have to sort these problems?
Prodigal
06-12-2009, 09:25
I'm a bit confused about what the problem in the UK has been with the influx of Poles, the only thing the vast majority seemed to bring with them was a work ethic.
This is a very weak example, but a program on in the UK a few weeks back met with a polish family living in near poverty, when they arrived the husband could only say "I want work" in English and he had a job by the end of the first day.
And as far as mixing cultures, the only ones that seem to get people backs up, (mine at any rate), relate to peoples moving to other countries & refusing to even try to intergrate into their adopted culture. Look at the British in, well pretty much anywhere they go...Or would that be a sweeping generalisation? (rhetorical)
Ironside
06-12-2009, 09:33
The number of rape charges per capita in Malmö is 5 – 6 times that of Copenhagen, Denmark. Copenhagen is a larger city, but the percentage of immigrants is much lower. And it’s not just the rape statistics that reveal a scary increase in Malmö or Sweden. Virtually every kind of violent crime is on the rise. Robberies have increased with 50 % in Malmö only during the fall of 2004. Threats against witnesses in Swedish court cases have quadrupled between 2000 and 2003. During the past few decades, massive immigration has changed the face of Sweden’s major cities, as well as challenged the viability of the welfare state. In 1970 Sweden had the fourth highest GDP per capita among developed countries with income about 6% above the OECD average. By 1997 it was at fifteenth place with an average GDP per capita 14% below average. Malmö has a heavy concentration of Muslim immigrants in particular. According to some estimates, it will be a Muslim majority city in no more then 10 years. Crime is rampant in the growing ghettos
The thing is that the argument "it's teh Muslims" are completely useless. Take rapes for example, Malmö got slightly less rape charges than Stockholm per capita and comparable to the national average. That average is high, by two reasons. First the number has gone up by about 120% since 2004 due to a law change, second, that number has always been unusaully high, even during the seventies (in general, that number has exploded in both Sweden and Norway during the last 35 years). No idea why that number has always been high, if there's a lot of rapes or that the reporting of rapes are higher in Sweden. Data taken from the Noweigian and the Swedish bureau of statistics.
While I won't bother to compare and check up the other numbers as they're trickier (robberies are much higher in Malmö compared to the rest of the country though, but at the same rate as Stockholm), but take them at face value, they do show very little correlation to teh Muslim immigrants. They didn't quadruple during 3 years, indicating other factors.
And linking the relative decline in GDP to immigrants and not poor economic policies are well wrong, stupid and contradictional. For starters, there's more immigrants now than it was 10 years ago, but Sweden is slowly gaining in that GDP list.
But still is there a problem with ghettosation? Yes. Are things like SD the solution? No, if anything they're enlarging the problem by enforcing the ghettoisation and missing the underlaying problems, (that is the ghettoisation, not the people living in the ghetto).
I'm a bit confused about what the problem in the UK has been with the influx of Poles, the only thing the vast majority seemed to bring with them was a work ethic.
I put it this way - if no one wants to do the job, wages go up as an incentive for people to apply because the higher wages attract people to that job.
The problem is, there is a massive influx of people being put in the system and they just want any job and happy to have the absolute minimum and even in some cases, even work below the minimum wage.
This keeps the wages down and at the bottom while prices of everything is getting more expensive. Since wages are usually linked with this increase as people usually want more money to pay for these increases. However, with the big influx of labour, this is not happening as companies don't need to increase the wages, so people are getting poorer and poorer.
In other words, it highly distorts the wage-price equilibrium against the British people.
Understand now?
Furunculus
06-12-2009, 10:04
multiculturalism is daft
unchecked immigration is daft
multiculturalism combined with unchecked immigration is the very pit of cretinism
quite frankly it doesn't matter what you and I think, what matters is that two million brits feel so alienated from their local communities and mainstream politics that are willing to vote for the BNP.
that is the problem.
the solution is for mainstream politics to become relevant to everybody again, not just latte-sipping guardian-reading shiraz-socialists.
rasoforos
06-12-2009, 10:14
sure, yeah
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/02/muslim-rape-epidemic-in-sweden-and.html
A racist leaning blog with dead links where the 'proof' should be, repeating the same thing over and over. Yeah, I am convinced now...
quite frankly it doesn't matter what you and I think, what matters is that two million brits feel so alienated from their local communities and mainstream politics that are willing to vote for the BNP.
I don't blame them, glad I don't have to. Go Wilders :balloon2:
Kadagar_AV
06-12-2009, 10:23
Hmmm... This might be the first time ever I agree with Fragony.
I grew up as an anti-racist, but after having been in contact with the multicultural expirement I must say I have become... Well, not a racist, but a cultureist (is that even a word).
I don't think race has anything to do with the problems, cultures do.
Fragony is right about the rapes in Sweden. Norway just made a investigation public, it showed that close to 100% of the assault rapes were made by immigrants.
It is mainly the assault rape figures that have risen steadily in Sweden the last 10 years or so.
One might claim that Norway and Sweden is not alike, but let's face it... We dont have a swedish survey of this; as both the state and media do their best to block such info.
Also, looking at the rape-assault trials the offenders name isnt exactly Johan, Sven, Anders.. It's rather Mamhud, Nözzgul and so on...
In many areas Swedish women in their short skirts are seen as whores, and it's quite ok to gang-rape a whore, isnt it?
It went so far that "multiculture" is now slang for gang-rape.
People from ME-states and African nations are the largest group of sex-offenders (about 80%).
The immigration was on reason why I left sweden... I have double nationality, and I just like it better in Austria.
I am all for supporting people who have to flee, however, set up refuge camps in neighbouring countries, where the cultures are more alike. I would happily support such refuge camps. However, I do NOT want the western world to build up ghettos with immigrants behaving like orks from Tolkien.
rory_20_uk
06-12-2009, 14:30
Coming to the UK one should be here for 2 main reasons:
Purely for a job - work permit
Want to become British - naturalisation and then passport
For #1 it is easy come, easy go. Few prerequisites for culture etc.
For #2 much more strict.
~:smoking:
Fragony is right about the rapes in Sweden. Norway just made a investigation public, it showed that close to 100% of the assault rapes were made by immigrants.
Well there's your Fragonyism Rasoforos.
A little about our situation here;
The official number is that 30% of the maroccan youth is/was criminal, but these numbers seem to be way too positive. In our biggest city Rotterdam 51% of the maroccan youth is supposedly criminal, in Amsterdam, a teraditionally leftist town, a civil worker who wants to keep his job and thus want to be incognito estimated 70% of the maroccan youth to be/been criminal. These numbers are just insane. But don't mention it. I know many maroccans, they are all easygoing and pretty fun to have around, but I do not know a single one who doesn't have a criminal record. I am now 32, and my opinion of Maroccans have improved considerably, that is because I am now older and meet older Maroccans. But there is a major problem with maroccan youth.
Kralizec
06-12-2009, 14:45
Immigrants are allowed in because the locals do not want (for unskilled labour) to do the jobs the immigrants do, or they cannot do them as efficiently (for skilled labour).
Natives do want those jobs, just not at incredibly low wages.
Immigrants and their offspring will not always be happy earning less then their native neighbours, so they'll want more.
Meanwhile, there continue to be poor countries elsewhere in the world.
You can see where this is going...
As for Karl's story. Ok Malmo, or whatever, has a high crime rate. Why is it the 27% of foreign born citizens to blame and not the 73% of the local boys? Doesn't anyone find it suspicious that the statistics about the percentage of immigrant and local criminals is missing?
During my spell in England I had the chance to live in areas with a high percentage of unskilled immigrants and a high crime and anti-social behaviour rate. It was mostly local chavs and yobs who found that immigrants (particularly non-white ones) were very easy prey.
I don't know about Malmo; but there recently was a research in the city of Rotterdam that around 55% of the Maroccan youth has had contact with the police, versus 18% of the native youth.
The problem with multicultists is that they either refuse to acknowledge that there's a problem at all, or insist that "it's just a couple of rotten apples who ruin it for everyone else".
Fortunately though the multicultists and the xenophobes do not account for the whole political spectrum in my country.
Prodigal
06-12-2009, 19:17
The thing is that the argument "it's teh Muslims" are completely useless. Take rapes for example, Malmö got slightly less rape charges than Stockholm per capita and comparable to the national average. That average is high, by two reasons. First the number has gone up by about 120% since 2004 due to a law change, second, that number has always been unusaully high, even during the seventies (in general, that number has exploded in both Sweden and Norway during the last 35 years).
Well said.
Law changes will increase convictions...This is always the problem with statistics, they do not take into account actual changes that affect conviction rates.
The same number of women may have been raped 30 years ago, unless there are laws to protect the victim, & improved ways in which a rapist can be prosecuted, the stat's will remain low, it doesn't mean any less women suffer.
One stat I do believe is that most rapes are carried out by people that know the victim.
If one can agree with this statistic, then an influx of immigrants would simply mean that perhaps they too are being convicted of rape.
There is even a positive you can draw from the increased number of REPORTED rapes; protections given to women has ensured that more are willing to come forward, & the likelihood of men being able to get away with raping women has been reduced.
So simply blaming everything on Johhny foreigner simply doesn't wash.
Kadagar_AV
06-12-2009, 19:36
Well said.
Law changes will increase convictions...This is always the problem with statistics, they do not take into account actual changes that affect conviction rates.
The same number of women may have been raped 30 years ago, unless there are laws to protect the victim, & improved ways in which a rapist can be prosecuted, the stat's will remain low, it doesn't mean any less women suffer.
One stat I do believe is that most rapes are carried out by people that know the victim.
If one can agree with this statistic, then an influx of immigrants would simply mean that perhaps they too are being convicted of rape.
There is even a positive you can draw from the increased number of REPORTED rapes; protections given to women has ensured that more are willing to come forward, & the likelihood of men being able to get away with raping women has been reduced.
So simply blaming everything on Johhny foreigner simply doesn't wash.
Problem is, blaming it on "Johnny Foreigner" does wash.
TRUE, most rapes are commited when the victim knows the assailant, and it's often in ones own home.
However, the figures we pointed at was assault-rapes, IE, in parks, people getting dragged into a car, and also gang-rapes, where two or more sexual predators rape the victim.
THESE rapes are, as numbers show, primarily made by immigrants from africa and arabic countries.
So to not blame it on "Johnny Foreigner" would quite simply be to go against the facts: source in norwegian (http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/artikkel.php?artid=561939)
There are now some almost "lawless zones" in Sweden, we didnt use to have that some 10-15 years ago... Like Malmo, one of the schools there, with about a thousand children, has one or two students who were born in Sweden.
Shocking numbers.
Prodigal
06-12-2009, 20:05
Problem is, blaming it on "Johnny Foreigner" does wash.
TRUE, most rapes are commited when the victim knows the assailant, and it's often in ones own home.
However, the figures we pointed at was assault-rapes, IE, in parks, people getting dragged into a car, and also gang-rapes, where two or more sexual predators rape the victim.
THESE rapes are, as numbers show, primarily made by immigrants from africa and arabic countries.
So to not blame it on "Johnny Foreigner" would quite simply be to go against the facts: source in norwegian (http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/artikkel.php?artid=561939)
There are now some almost "lawless zones" in Sweden, we didnt use to have that some 10-15 years ago... Like Malmo, one of the schools there, with about a thousand children, has one or two students who were born in Sweden.
Shocking numbers.
So what's the solution? More policing? Boot everyone out? Castrate everyone who's name ends in med?
Or educate the younger ones? Lock up the SOB's that commit rape for so long that people who see women as fair game think again?
There is no easy answer because attacks on women is an ugly fact of life, the best that can be hoped for is to look for the best way of decreasing the chance of it happening, if that's via intimidation or education is moot, that it happens one way or another is the only matter of any importance.
Migration is a fact that can't be reversed, peoples religion is not something you can change. Peoples attitude to women IS something that can be changed, wether its through education, assimulation, or the application of a bloody great big stick via the courts.
Revising laws sensibly, & through the due process of law are the tools that democracies have. If those ideals are given up in order to deal with one problem or another then what's left?
For the record, two of my oldest friends, (husband & wife), live an hour outside Malmo, and their main gripe is the insane tax laws.
Kadagar_AV
06-12-2009, 20:29
Prodigal, maybe they would think other issues more important if they lived IN Malmo?
What can be done?
1. We could stop immigration, or only accept as much as our neighbours.
Last year we accepted some 40.000 people... That is WAYYY to much in a country with barely 9 million people.
2. Force immigrants to live where the state decide, not where they want to (ie, ffill up the northern part who actually need workers, instead fo creating suburban ghettos).
Then, when the existing immigrants have adapted to the Swedish society, we can start opening up our borders again :)
And can someone explain what forum rules I broke in my first post????? Almost last post on the first page, I just got an infraction from our friendly mods??
Or educate the younger ones? Lock up the SOB's that commit rape for so long that people who see women as fair game think again?
Of course. However, an immigrant who committs a major crime, such as assault or rape, should be deported. Sweden is a country for God's sake, not a large refugee camp!
And can someone explain what forum rules I broke in my first post????? Almost last post on the first page, I just got an infraction from our friendly mods??
Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; Today at 13:44. Reason: Removed bad language and racist remarks
THat's the edit.
Prodigal
06-12-2009, 20:43
Sorry, have to go & cook. I see what you're saying but there's still holes in it, shipping people north, well that's going to create the same problem somewhere else isn't it?
Deport them, so they can do it again somehwere else? Not my country not my problem is valid, I guess, but its a bit weak don't you think?
If reducing the number of immigrants allowed into the country is what you'd like, well that's another topic, but it won't address the current issue will it?
Kadagar_AV
06-12-2009, 21:02
I wonder what racist remarks?
The part where I said some immigrants drink from the toilet and **** in the bushes?
Hmmm, isnt it only racist if it isnt true?
let me elaborate:
The immigration service bought my house and the house next to mine, the value of the apartments dropped like a rock in no time.
A lot of these "new swedes" came straight from the bush, literary speaking. A few had never seen such a thing as a toilet before, they just noticed that the only obvious way to get water was from the toilet, kind of looks like a water-well if you think about it.
The area ahd to start a "apartment school", where the new swedes could learn about such things as how a toilet work, how to use the kitchen and so on.
It got started after a social worker had seen the wife in one household drink from the toilet, and one apartment fire was set off cause they didnt put out the stove (and they threw the garbage anywhere).
My neighbour from the middle east had hens and chickens in his apartment, I woke up by the sound of the rooster for a couple of weeks before I called the social service.
I'm sorry if someone took offense, I had in no way written "this is how they all behave"... But it is the way many behave who comes straight from third world countries, unaccustomed to modern apartments and all their functions.
In extremly many cases, apartments who have been held by immigrants has to be completely restored, as they often have no idea how to live in them and thus wreck them.
I'll throw in some sources too (they are in swedish though):
http://www.sydostran.se/index.74922---1.html
http://www.bostaden.umea.se/default.asp?id=2822&ptid=1305
Not my country not my problem is valid, I guess, but its a bit weak don't you think?
Sort of. Sweden is the country allowing these immigrants in, if these immigrants are breaking laws, attacking natives and rioting, then they don't really deserve the right to live in the country, do they? It's the Swedes who ultimately suffer the consequences of the immigration policy.
Kadagar_AV
06-12-2009, 21:09
Sorry, have to go & cook. I see what you're saying but there's still holes in it, shipping people north, well that's going to create the same problem somewhere else isn't it?
Deport them, so they can do it again somehwere else? Not my country not my problem is valid, I guess, but its a bit weak don't you think?
If reducing the number of immigrants allowed into the country is what you'd like, well that's another topic, but it won't address the current issue will it?
Deport them, not so they can do the same thing somewhere else, but so they have a chance to join the society.
Example 1: mr. Arab can live where ever he wants. He choose to life in teh same neighbourhood as his cousin, in one of the suburbs to Stockholm. Here he is surrounded by arabic-speaking people and about 90% of the adults does not have a job in the area. His kids go to a school with 99% immigrants.
Example 2: mr. arab is forced to live in a small town up north. No one around him speaks arabic. 90% of the people have jobs where he lives, and his children go to a school where almost everyone is born in Sweden.
Now, in which example do you think there is the biggest chance of mr. arab and his kids to quickly adapt to life in a new country, learn the language, become part of the culture, and get a job?
And no, making immigration mroe strict isnt helping the current problem, but helps in a long term perspective. To depart to outher part of teh country helps in short-term.
Do them both and we have a longterm aswell as a shortterm solution.
Don't get me wrong, I am all for immigration. However, the people coming here should have a right to a life just like anyone else in teh country, not be stacked in a ghetto hopeless to get out of. And we should only accept as many as we can assimilate.
Strike For The South
06-12-2009, 21:46
Immagrants in the USA tend to have lower crime rates and there kids tend to acheive higher education.
So somehow either were getting all the "good" brown people or this is alarmist poppycock.
Kadagar_AV
06-12-2009, 22:02
SFTS,
Immagrants in the USA tend to have lower crime rates and there kids tend to acheive higher education.
Care to back that up? All official reports I have read from various contries show immigrants are immensly higher crime rates. Got any american report that shows culture has no bearing on crime rate?
In Sweden, a report newly made showed that an immigrant is about 5 times more likely to, as an example, assault.
However, this same study also took into account where people originated from. A immigrant from Etheopia was as an example 15 times more likely than an immigrant from China to assault.
On a sidenote though: Yes we accept much more and much worse cases than most other countries, like the US. Sweden has a tendency to accept the rejects no other country want.
Strike For The South
06-12-2009, 22:06
Not only does immigration appear to be "protective" against violence in poverty areas, violence was significantly lower among Mexican-Americans compared to blacks and whites. Sampson refers to this as the "Latino Paradox," whereby Hispanic Americans do better on a range of social indicators — including propensity to violence — than one would expect, given their socioeconomic disadvantages.
http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/080318-immigration-crime.html
Kadagar_AV
06-12-2009, 22:43
SFTS, mexicans dont show up as veyr criminal in swedish statistics either :)
As I said, different cultures are more and less criminal, both in general and when it comes to different types of crimes.
So what does your statistics say about arabic immigrants, and african ones?
Japaneese are another example, japaneese immigrants in sweden is 4 times LESS likely to commit crime than people of swedish origin.
It's cultural differences, swings both ways :)
Don't think race or even culture is a factor, it's human nature to step in when one backs of. The actual problems are so small, and they would be so easily solved, but they are made huge because: religion. Multiculturalism = religion. A believer will allow nothing that comes between him and what he worships. THAT is the problem. Under a decent rightwing government with absolute equality there would be no such problems, because it believes it in both succes and faillure and allows both.
rasoforos
06-13-2009, 05:21
I see all those pretty numbers quoted...
...but I do not see sources.
The only credible link dictates that the opposite of what Kadagar_AV and Fragony claim is true.
I keep an open mind fellas but you gotta do better than that. There is no point in quoting statistics if your source is some blogger or if in only exists into the sphere of imagination.
If things are as bad as you say, is it really that hard to find a reliable source?
is it really that hard to find a reliable source?
Yes, that would be very hard
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Fragony/bloggers-g.jpg
It's the Swedes who ultimately suffer the consequences of the immigration policy.
Untill things become more sinister, and I am not going to blame the immigrants when it does.
I keep an open mind fellas but you gotta do better than that. There is no point in quoting statistics if your source is some blogger or if in only exists into the sphere of imagination.
If things are as bad as you say, is it really that hard to find a reliable source?
Is the president of a Swedish think tank a bad source? (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/sanandaji6.html)
Who do you want us to source? The mainstream media? Yeah, we've all seen how ovjective they are to the issue.
This good? (http://www.migrationinformation.org/Profiles/display.cfm?ID=406)
For quite a long time, the government has been concerned about unemployment levels among the foreign born as compared to natives of the country, higher levels of social-welfare dependency among people of migrant origin, segregation indices, dropping participation in local elections, school dropouts, crime rates, etc.
Excellent paper on the history of the Social Democrat policies and their effects. Warning: Word Document (www.pugetsound.edu/documents/Economics/ImmigrationInSweden.doc)
And now from an immigrant perspective, actually know any? I have friends from any color of the rainbow, and let me tell you something they don't understand these good intentions, they don't come here to be 'part' of us, they come here because they want a better living. This integration thing is like dragging them at their hairs towards a party they weren't invited, you will see them sitting lonely on the couch watching other have fun.
IT CANNOT BE FORCED. LET US BE. LEAVE US ALONE. :daisy: YOU.
And now from an immigrant perspective, actually know any? I have friends from any color of the rainbow, and let me tell you something they don't understand these good intentions, they don't come here to be 'part' of us, they come here because they want a better living. This integration thing is like dragging them at their hairs towards a party they weren't invited, you will see them sitting lonely on the couch watching other have fun.
IT CANNOT BE FORCED. LET US BE. LEAVE US ALONE. :daisy: YOU.
Read a New York Times article on Swedish immigration (Will post when I find it again). They went to a school in Rinkeby, a well known high immigrant district, and origin of the "Ghetto" Swedish language, and asked an English class if they considered themselves Swedish. If I recall, about half said no. Which, to me at least, is sickening. When you immigrate to a country, you should be expected to assimilate and consider yourself part of the country that houses you and protects you. Refusing to identify as "Swedish" in Sweden is disrespectful to the country that was nice enough to allow you and/or your family to have a better life.
rasoforos
06-13-2009, 07:55
Is the president of a Swedish think tank a bad source? (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/sanandaji6.html)
Who do you want us to source? The mainstream media? Yeah, we've all seen how ovjective they are to the issue.
Ok yet another blog lol :D
And of course a total lack of statistical data.
Oh yes the mainstream media conspiracy theory. Undoubtedly another dastardly Octosquid plan...
P.S However a very interesting piece of data is that an overwhelming portion (about 25%) of the immigrant population is Scandinavian. So, there is your problem.
I will therefore now claim that it is the Scandinavians who cause all this rape and pillage (its the Viking ancestry you know...) and that they should be expelled immediately. Of course I will base my statement on absolutely nothing as it is the tradition of this thread ;-)
Ok yet another blog lol :D
And of course a total lack of statistical data.
Oh yes the mainstream media conspiracy theory. Undoubtedly another dastardly Octosquid plan...
P.S However a very interesting piece of data is that an overwhelming portion (about 25%) of the immigrant population is Scandinavian. So, there is your problem.
I will therefore now claim that it is the Scandinavians who cause all this rape and pillage (its the Viking ancestry you know...) and that they should be expelled immediately. Of course I will base my statement on absolutely nothing as it is the tradition of this thread ;-)
So, provided with sources, you continue to contribute nothing? Could've let your post be a lot shorter if you just admit it.
Oh yes the mainstream media conspiracy theory. Undoubtedly another dastardly Octosquid plan...
Mainstream Swedish media is about as reliable on immigration as Fox News is on Obama.
How about you actually address the points, or leave? "LOL ITS A BLOG" doesn't count as an argument.
Read a New York Times article on Swedish immigration (Will post when I find it again). They went to a school in Rinkeby, a well known high immigrant district, and origin of the "Ghetto" Swedish language, and asked an English class if they considered themselves Swedish. If I recall, about half said no. Which, to me at least, is sickening. When you immigrate to a country, you should be expected to assimilate and consider yourself part of the country that houses you and protects you. Refusing to identify as "Swedish" in Sweden is disrespectful to the country that was nice enough to allow you and/or your family to have a better life.
Do you consider them to be Swedish, I don't. Why would they think of theirselves as Swedish. They are immigrants living in Sweden and are going to remain immigrants living in Sweden for a while, there is nothing anyone can do about that. Swedish citizens yes, Swedish no. It's like that, c'est ca.
rasoforos
06-13-2009, 08:02
So, provided with sources, you continue to contribute nothing? Could've let your post be a lot shorter if you just admit it.
My dear friend, a blog entry by some anti-imigration chap is hardly evidence...
...unless you really really really want to believe it to ease your conscience.
But you will notice that I did contribute. I found the real curlprit. And with data as accurate and valid as yours nonetheless. :-)
Long story short. Get some real evidence. Using biased blogs who do not even provide a source for their figures is not evidence.
rasoforos
06-13-2009, 08:06
How about you actually address the points, or leave?
You are really keen on kicking people out aren't you? :-P
I will address valid points. Saying 'high crime rates are attributed to immigrants from the middle east/africa and I base that on what some guy on a blog said' is not a valid point. It is gossip to say the least.
I addressed this point by making my own 'Scandinavian' argument, based on data of similar quality.
My dear friend, a blog entry by some anti-imigration chap is hardly evidence...
Nima Sanandaji is just a chap? Ok. You get a lot of unbiased Swedish news in Greece?
But you will notice that I did contribute. I found the real curlprit. And with data as accurate and valid as yours nonetheless. :-)
I'm looking over this entire thread, you have no provided one credible source in your posts, instead simply using a blanket reply to any link we post "LOL ITS A BLOG".
I will address valid points. Saying 'high crime rates are attributed to immigrants from the middle east/africa and I base that on what some guy on a blog said' is not a valid point. It is gossip to say the least.
wtf is wrong with you, see this is why good intention go bad, that insane blind spot, the refusal to admit that there are problems. It's is a pressure boiler that leads to very very bad things, and the people you are trying to safeguard will pay the price, and it isn't their fault.
I will therefore now claim that it is the Scandinavians who cause all this rape and pillage
Sure. If you would like to provide the figures stating that the Scandinavian immigrants. I suggest you read that document I linked to, especially the crime section.
Sources (http://www.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=6251)
Sources2 (http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-tossavainen-f05.htm)
According to a new study from the Crime Prevention Council, Brå, it is four times more likely that a known rapist is born abroad, compared to persons born in Sweden. Resident aliens from Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominate the group of rape suspects. According to these statistics, almost half of all perpetrators are immigrants
I, for one, think the Crime Prevention Council are a bunch of Muslim hating racists.
Found the NY Times article. (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/05/magazine/05muslims.html?ei=5088&en=722dbb00a718b0f9&ex=1296795600&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&pagewanted=print)
rasoforos
06-13-2009, 08:25
wtf is wrong with you,
Keep it civil please...
see this is why good intention go bad, that insane blind spot, the refusal to admit that there are problems. It's is a pressure boiler that leads to very very bad things, and the people you are trying to safeguard will pay the price, and it isn't their fault.
I made a point against using falsified data to turn people against a certain group. I was hoping for real data and sources, but I got more blogs and a conspiracy theory by the media instead.
As I said, I keep an open mind. I am not denying that there might be a problem, but I shall not stand idle while a group of people is being demonized with 'faux' data. It reminds me of those 1940's posters where black haired 'evil kids' where tormenting blue eyed blonde german kids.
Bring the real issue, with real data or just say 'This is what I believe and I don't have data to support it but it is my gut feeling'.
As I said, I keep an open mind. I am not denying that there might be a problem, but I shall not stand idle while a group of people is being demonized with 'faux' data. It reminds me of those 1940's posters where black haired 'evil kids' where tormenting blue eyed blonde german kids.
Was wondering when someone was going to evoke Godwin.
Bring the real issue, with real data or just say 'This is what I believe and I don't have data to support it but it is my gut feeling'.
You could say "I am against this, and here is why *sources*" instead of "LOL BLOGS" and not contribute anything. That's all your doing, you have yet to provide a single unbiased source, hell, a single source at all, and instead take your time attacking the sources of other posters.
but I shall not stand idle while a group of people is being demonized with 'faux' data. It reminds me of those 1940's posters where black haired 'evil kids' where tormenting blue eyed blonde german kids.
You know, if I had any bad intentions I would shut up, sit back, and wait.
rasoforos
06-13-2009, 09:19
Was wondering when someone was going to evoke Godwin.
You could say "I am against this, and here is why *sources*" instead of "LOL BLOGS" and not contribute anything. That's all your doing, you have yet to provide a single unbiased source, hell, a single source at all, and instead take your time attacking the sources of other posters.
You missed the point. I am not trying to prove the opposite. I used sarcasm to point out that anyone can claim anything if he does not rely on real data. My sarcasm was missed.
What source shall I provide? I am not defending any argument! All I am saying is that whatever was quoted up to now lacked the source to support the statistics or was someone's opinion from a blog (I have nothing against blogs but someone's opinion is hardly fact). I am here to be convinced, I am not supporting any oppinion, but I need to see evidence.
You, however, has quoted statistics and I am still waiting for a source.
Now let's go see your 'sources':
Sure. If you would like to provide the figures stating that the Scandinavian immigrants. I suggest you read that document I linked to, especially the crime section.
Sources (http://www.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=6251)
Frontpage magazine. Riiiiight.... Fox news on paper. I realy sugest you do a bit of research about what this magazine is about.
Now let's see the sources of the article...Oh why if it isn't our dear blogger Fjordman quoted 3-4 times! (Yes the guy who quotes numbers from his imagination! I bet you missed this...).
So we now have a nice case of one anti-imigrationist quoting the other but still no valid research whatsoever. They have a really good strategy here...it seems that if someone produces something out of their minds, and they are then quoted 3-4 times by likeminded people, then the trail of validity is lost and fake statistics become fact.
So to conclude. Conservative mag with racism issues (read their wiki) is quoting blogger who makes things up and we still do not have any idea where the quotes figures came from!
My favourite part of the article was: Muhammad himself had forced sex (rape) with several of his slave girls/concubines. This is perfectly allowed, both in the sunna and in the Koran. If you postulate that many of the Muslims in Europe view themselves as a conquering army and that European women are simply war booty, it all makes perfect sense and is in full accordance with Islamic law.
Oh my! This is not about inciting hatred at all! These are very unbiased people!
Sources2 (http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-tossavainen-f05.htm)
From the Jerusalem Centre of Public Afairs, an Israeli think tank. It argues the case of anti-Jewish activities by Islamic elements but yet once more it does not quote any figures. It was a nice read (although the writer seems to think that 'anti-semitic' should only refer to 'anti-jewish' for some reason or other) is rather off-topic.
[/QUOTE]
Conclusion...Bloggers quoting one-another into nothingness and an off-topic article. Still no figures.
So I am still waiting...
Ironside
06-13-2009, 09:22
Sort of. Sweden is the country allowing these immigrants in, if these immigrants are breaking laws, attacking natives and rioting, then they don't really deserve the right to live in the country, do they? It's the Swedes who ultimately suffer the consequences of the immigration policy.
Bigger criminals are already usually deported and deporting those who lived here in Sweden all or most of thier lives are a bit odd.
1. We could stop immigration, or only accept as much as our neighbours.
Last year we accepted some 40.000 people... That is WAYYY to much in a country with barely 9 million people.
Agreed, for long term thats a bit too quick demographic change, luckily plenty of them move back after a few years.
2. Force immigrants to live where the state decide, not where they want to (ie, ffill up the northern part who actually need workers, instead fo creating suburban ghettos).
Agreed, the ghettoisation is a huge problem, almost the entire problem imo.
Then, when the existing immigrants have adapted to the Swedish society, we can start opening up our borders again :)
And here is a crux, if the immigrants are considered to be lazy poorly uneducated criminals by the employers how are they supposed to get a job and integrate? I suspect that this is the reason why media is careful around the issue.
And yet it's an issue that needs to be handled.
Do you consider them to be Swedish, I don't. Why would they think of theirselves as Swedish. They are immigrants living in Sweden and are going to remain immigrants living in Sweden for a while, there is nothing anyone can do about that. Swedish citizens yes, Swedish no. It's like that, c'est ca.
So when do you consider an immigrant to be Dutch? One generation, two, four?
The party leader (Jimmie Åkesson) of SD (our own racist party) did get a interesting question about the the matter. He was asked if the one asking the question (Maciej Zaremba) was Swedish or not. For help to determine he was given the information that Maciej had lived in Sweden for 10 years longer than Jimmie and as he was working with Swedish culture probably had a bit more knowledge on that matter. Jimmie's answer was that while he couldn't determine that (and that is one defining traits to be a Swede according to SD).
Don't think race or even culture is a factor, it's human nature to step in when one backs of. The actual problems are so small, and they would be so easily solved, but they are made huge because: religion. Multiculturalism = religion. A believer will allow nothing that comes between him and what he worships. THAT is the problem. Under a decent rightwing government with absolute equality there would be no such problems, because it believes it in both succes and faillure and allows both.
Does removing multiculturalism make the ghettos diappear? And define success and failure please. Is an unemployed small time criminal living in a ghetto a failure?
I see all those pretty numbers quoted...
...but I do not see sources.
Kadagar posted a decent source on Norwegian (Oslo) rape statistics.
I can post another source; the Norwegian state channel (NRK):
http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/1.6567955
Google translate grasps the important bits: http://translate.google.no/translate?prev=hp&hl=no&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nrk.no%2Fnyheter%2F1.6567955&sl=no&tl=en&history_state0=&swap=1 (voldekt = rape, overfall = assault)
What it basically says, is that all 41 assault rapes that have been reported in Oslo over the last three years have been committed by non-Western immigrants; most of the perpetrators having Kurdish or African origin.
Kadagar_AV
06-13-2009, 11:18
The problem with sources regarding national swedish problems is that all sources I have is in Swedish.
Sitting such things as Brottsförebyggade Rádets report is something known to pretty much any politicly active Swede, however, I can't see to find an english link to it.
That is where I got my statistics from.
At www.bra.se you will find all statistics regarding crime, however, you have to download them as PDF.
This (http://www.bra.se/extra/faq/?module_instance=2&action=question_show&id=478&category_id=0) takes you directly to where you can download criminal statistics up to 2007. Mind you, it's in Swedish.
The important statistics might be translated to English somewhere, I'm not sure though.
So, anyone claiming there is no evidence would have to download the pdf and then start learning swedish... OR you can just accept that we are not lunatics.
Sweden has a HUGE immigrant problem. It's not the immigrants fault, of course. It's the fault of the failed state policys that can not assimilate the immigrants.
Prodigal
06-13-2009, 12:21
Immagrants in the USA tend to have lower crime rates and there kids tend to acheive higher education.
So somehow either were getting all the "good" brown people or this is alarmist poppycock.
That's 'cos you're living in their country. Which makes you the bad whitey underachievers.
Kralizec
06-13-2009, 16:52
I see all those pretty numbers quoted...
...but I do not see sources.
Here's one for my earlier claim about the Maroccan youth in Rotterdam:
http://www.elsevier.nl/web/10236094/Nieuws/Nederland/Schokkende-cijfers-criminaliteit-Marokkanen-Rotterdam.htm
You'll have to learn Dutch to understand any of it, of course.
It turned out that 55% of Maroccans aged 18-24 comes into contact with the police, versus 18.4% for natives. Of those Maroccans, 90% are repeat offenders and for the natives it's about 60%.
...so concludes a Dutch criminologist based on data from the police, child protection services etc. The results were first mentioned by "de Volkskrant", a Dutch newspaper with a leftist slant.
KukriKhan
06-13-2009, 18:00
Here's one for my earlier claim about the Maroccan youth in Rotterdam:
http://www.elsevier.nl/web/10236094/Nieuws/Nederland/Schokkende-cijfers-criminaliteit-Marokkanen-Rotterdam.htm
You'll have to learn Dutch to understand any of it, of course.
It turned out that 55% of Maroccans aged 18-24 comes into contact with the police, versus 18.4% for natives. Of those Maroccans, 90% are repeat offenders and for the natives it's about 60%.
...so concludes a Dutch criminologist based on data from the police, child protection services etc. The results were first mentioned by "de Volkskrant", a Dutch newspaper with a leftist slant.
Here's the thing: "comes into contact with the police", means that (I assume) written police reports reflect country of birth and age of the contact-ant. Not arrestee, or convictee, or whether the contact came about as a result of a report of violence, or domestic disturbance, or random pull-over.
One side will say: "See? Morroccans are 2-and-a-half times more likely to be criminals!"
The other side will say: "See? Police target Morroccans 3 times more than native-born Dutchmen."
Me, I say: not enough numbers or context in the newspaper report (maybe there's more in the source report by Mr. Bovenkerk the cultural anthropologist), to support any kind of rational conclusion. This Elsevier report, IMO, is but a flame-fanner.
Kralizec
06-13-2009, 18:22
The elsevier article I linked to doesn't mention it, but it's supposed to be "contact with the police because of a suspicion of a crime".
Wich doesn't tell us anything about conviction rates, admittedly it could also be interpreted that the police are racist when it comes to developing "suspicions".
Only the city of Rotterdam is so far making an effort to registrate ethnicity. They would be able to get their hands on police reports easily enough because the police is decentralised (and partially subordinate to the mayor), but judicial verdicts are another thing.
I'd like to see the numbers themselves but they're not on the guys site. I might have been more sceptical otherwise, but as I said before the first media source to mention it was a newspaper with a decidely left-wing bias.
rotorgun
06-13-2009, 20:29
Doesn't it seem that the most repressive cultures seem to foster such behavior more than any others? Individuals who live under the thumb, as it were, of intense moral and sexual repression seem to be more susceptible to dangerous release of these innate tensions when the restrictions of their culture are removed or relaxed. Witness the way in which the Spartan warriors would behave once away from Sparta, often giving in to rapine and plunder that would have made a Nazi blush.
Kadagar_AV
06-13-2009, 22:31
Kukrikhan, the swedish statistics mirrors the dutch ones, and the swedish are based on people found guilty in court.
I really wish mainstream media would stop putting sugar around cultural diversity. Why can't it be as simple as "I respect your way of living, I expect you to respect mine. If you choose to live live in my country, you will have to adopt my way of living".
THEN I would be able to sing along with that old negro spiritual: "free at last"
I am as we speak a swede living in austria... I do my best to perfect the language, and I do not stress to follow the swedish traditions. I celebrate midsummer, christmas and so on the austrian way... trying to adopt :)
If you choose to live live in my country, you will have to adopt my way of living".
I do not understand why they should. Why would they bring anything but their use.
Prodigal
06-14-2009, 12:02
If you choose to live live in my country, you will have to adopt my way of living".
I do not understand why they should. Why would they bring anything but their use.
There's adopt & respect, now I'm pretty easy going on many things, & it made me laugh at the time, but Poles in the UK should know that killing & eating swans is generally frowned on. Same would apply to pretty much any country, there are some simple do's & don'ts.
Kralizec
06-14-2009, 12:16
Another one:
https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj68/Anathema-nl/prisonstats.jpg?t=1244977801
The title reads: inmates sorted by country of birth, per 100,000 inhabitants, 2001
("buiten Nederland" = outside the Netherlands, jaar = year, the rest you can probably understand without trouble)
Source: http://www.cbs.nl/NR/rdonlyres/AB51BEB9-D08F-4500-8EE2-5D81410AA3D8/0/jeugd2003.pdf
CBS = Centraal Bureau voor Statistiek; an autonomous government agency that gathers statistic on pretty much everything.
That is absolutely insane, much worse then I thought.
Kralizec
06-14-2009, 15:58
Keep in mind that the stats are about birthplace. The vast majority of Maroccan youngsters who cause problems in the big cities were born here.
As far as Aruba and the Antilles go, it's not surprising at all considering how easy it is for them to go to the Netherlands.
Keep in mind that the stats are about birthplace.
Sure these are national numbers? Must be Rotterdam
Furunculus
06-15-2009, 10:13
The only statistic that actually matters in all this is that 943,598 British citizens felt so alienated from mainstream politics by the issue of immigration that they voted for an extreme anti-immigration party.
The 'truth' of what percentage of crime is committed by immigrants is besides the point, the fact that non-western immigrants are seen to be a problem by the electorate is reason enough to restrict non-western immigration.
Maybe we are looking for the wrong correlation here. I don't think there's a direct link between a certain culture/religion and crime. At best, the link is indirect.
The horror state of immigrants in Belgium: over half of non-EU migrants live under the poverty threshold. Orsolya Lelkes from the European Centre for Social Welfare Policy and Research quantifies poverty among migrants in Europe.
The aim of this paper is to analyse the level of poverty among migrants in 14 European countries. The results are alarming. Migrants from outside the EU tend to face higher poverty rates than the indigenous population. Non-EU migrants tend to have nearly twice as high a risk of poverty than EU-migrants. EU migrants tend to have a higher education and a higher labour market involvement. Belgium does not perform well at all. In our country, over half of those who have non-EU citizenship live in poverty while in some other countries such as Portugal migrants are not more disadvantaged than locals. Migration is a major policy issue. Belgium is lagging behind and needs to introduce new reforms in order to catch up its delay.
Full report here (http://www.euro.centre.org/data/1178099907_77304.pdf) (.pdf file).
US report suggesting strong association between poverty and crime (http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07343t.pdf) (.pdf file).
Economic theory predicts that low wages or unemployment makes crime more attractive, even with the risks of arrest and incarceration, because of lower returns to an individual through legal activities.
The fact that there's a disproportianate amount of immigrants living in poverty explains the disproportionate amount of immigrants committing crimes, imho. If you want our immigrants to commit less crimes, then you'll have to pull them out of their poverty first, instead of blaming their culture or religion. Blame poverty and our failing (non existant?) immigration policy of the past decades instead.
Poverty doesn't explain the numbers on sexual assault and honour killings for example. Not saying that it's cultural but not going dismiss it's influences complete. These people are from completely different places and they bring different habits, and the help they recieve understanding their new home, without upsetting the locals, is more then a little bit lacking because nothing is expecting from them. Lefties will organise the millionth multicultural festival where only the band playing and the food served is multicultural, at the end of the evening they will go back to their parallel universe in their 100% white neighbourhoods with their 100% white schools and tell others what to think, completely oblivious of the slumbering problems. It's no surprise that 1/3 of the people who voted on Fortuyn weren't born in the Netherlands. Even if they wanted to nobody would allow it, they are expected to shut up, be helpless and vote for the socialists. No way out. Made even by worse by the government not allowing them to raise their kids in their own way, government wants to control every aspect of raising their offspring but they can't deliver that, government is too lazy, too scrared, too crippled by the suffocating social control. No but you can't do that mr, leave it to us, yeah right.
Kadagar_AV
06-15-2009, 14:13
Andres, BRÁs report show that even if you only count social group 3 (low income) then immigrants still sky rocket off the charts.
There are still more "poor" swedes than "poor" immigrants, yet immigrants stand for between 50-100% of the criems (depends on the crime).
So no, low income is not enough to explain the differences.
I can see a few reasons:
1. Poverty (again, this in itself is not enough to explain, but it is of course a afctor).
2. Clash of cultures (like, being raised that women are beneath the man, and all in mini-skirts are whores).
3. A feeling of not belonging to the society, feeling left out.
4. Ghetto building, where the bad elements fuel each other to get even worse.
1 and 4 the state can do something about... number 3 the state can do a little about... Number 2 is however just tough luck, and why I am against mass-immigration.
Furunculus
06-15-2009, 14:28
more grist for the mill:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/edwest/blog/2009/06/15/rod_liddle_bravely_tells_the_truth_about_knife_crime
Strike For The South
06-15-2009, 16:18
more grist for the mill:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/edwest/blog/2009/06/15/rod_liddle_bravely_tells_the_truth_about_knife_crime
Ah, so it's the blacks
Kadagar_AV
06-15-2009, 16:27
Ah, so it's the blacks
I don't see how that comment makes sence?
What do you mean by your post? Please do elaborate :)
Strike For The South
06-15-2009, 16:30
I don't see how that comment makes sence?
What do you mean by your post? Please do elaborate :)
Quite clearly its the blacks fault. Think about Swen, they cuase problems everywhere they go, and Africa that's a bloody hellhole.
I figured it out, deport the blacks and things will get better.
Kadagar_AV
06-15-2009, 16:35
Quite clearly its the blacks fault. Think about Swen, they cuase problems everywhere they go, and Africa that's a bloody hellhole.
I figured it out, deport the blacks and things will get better.
Now you are just trolling.
And who so focused on negroes? I dont think anyone here have said it is a racial issue, it's a cultural one.
Quite a difference between, say, an african-american immigrant and an african immigrant in sweden...
I think you can give up your idea of race thinking, it's all got to do with cultures.
Strike For The South
06-15-2009, 16:46
Now you are just trolling.
And who so focused on negroes? I dont think anyone here have said it is a racial issue, it's a cultural one.
Quite a difference between, say, an african-american immigrant and an african immigrant in sweden...
I think you can give up your idea of race thinking, it's all got to do with cultures.
What's trolling? Is that like posting?
I was referering to the article
Ya, African immagrants to the USA achevie the best out of many groups.
It does have to do with culture but the culture as a whole not just subcultures and so much more than that. Culture as its used in this thread is just a thinly veiled attack on the browns.
Kadagar_AV
06-15-2009, 16:55
I think you misunderstood my post:
I meant that immigrated negroes from America tend not to show up very much in the crime rates, whereas negroes from Africa tend to.
Thus we can pretty much cancel the idea of race having much to do with anything.
I don't think anyone in this thread claims race is a factor.
Culture, however is. And no, cultures is not a thinly veiled attack on races...
I guess the whole race idea some time ago... However, that should not have us shy from discussing cultural tendencies.
Strike For The South
06-15-2009, 17:06
I think you misunderstood my post:
I meant that immigrated negroes from America tend not to show up very much in the crime rates, whereas negroes from Africa tend to.
Thus we can pretty much cancel the idea of race having much to do with anything.
I don't think anyone in this thread claims race is a factor.
Culture, however is. And no, cultures is not a thinly veiled attack on races...
I guess the whole race idea some time ago... However, that should not have us shy from discussing cultural tendencies.
Yes but one must look at the whole culture.
Blacks are shown as the face of poverty here. They are consistintaly portrayed as loud, lazy and surronded by 234 welfare babies. When in reality more whites use the programs and are impoverished.
Blacks are genrally portrayed as stupid and thuggish in the media, only good for menial tasks. While the white uses his brain.
Other minorities see this portryal and take it to heart, Asians, Jews, and Hispanics all tend to have "more" (collectivley not indiv) racist attitudes towards blacks.
There is a certain case for life imatating art.
You're told you're a stupid thug and you'll be a stupid thug.
Now granted that doesnt help the 68% fatherless rate but it may be one of the reasons.
Kadagar_AV
06-15-2009, 17:51
SFTS, that might be true in Texas, or generaly in teh states..
However, in Sweden that doesn't hold up.
Swedish media is VERY positive to immigration, to the extent of covering up immigration problems.
As example, in many blurred photos descripting criminals they white-pixel the image so it looks like someone white.
So your argument isnt really valid over here.
Hooahguy
06-15-2009, 18:01
SFTS, that might be true in Texas, or generaly in teh states..
However, in Sweden that doesn't hold up.
Swedish media is VERY positive to immigration, to the extent of covering up immigration problems.
As example, in many blurred photos descripting criminals they white-pixel the image so it looks like someone white.
So your argument isnt really valid over here.
also, isnt there a ban on reporting about immigration in the newspapers?
Kadagar_AV
06-15-2009, 18:19
It's not really a ban, it's more like an agreement to help thwart racism...
However, latly the situation, and the cover-ups have gone to the extent so it borders to absurd, thus the cover-up now have more of a negative effect, ie, people take for granted it is an immigrant behind the crime unless media is specifik with name and picture.
And as soon as anyone in the media as much as whispers "immigration problem" all hell breakes lose around him.
It's not really a ban, it's more like an agreement to help thwart racism...
However, latly the situation, and the cover-ups have gone to the extent so it borders to absurd, thus the cover-up now have more of a negative effect, ie, people take for granted it is an immigrant behind the crime unless media is specifik with name and picture.
And as soon as anyone in the media as much as whispers "immigration problem" all hell breakes lose around him.
If I recall, major newspapers rely on the Swedish government for funding, therefore it is against their interests to report anything that can be deemed as anti-immigration. Probably why the SD have not recieved a lot of coverage.
rasoforos
06-15-2009, 23:21
Nice conspiracy theories guys :2thumbsup:
Amazing how many things N. Korea and Sweden have in common afterall...
Papewaio
06-15-2009, 23:25
How hard would it be for an Aussie to immigrate to Sweden?
Do they have Ikea?
Vs a Swede immigrating to Aus?
=][=
As for Sweden :sweden: at 40,000 immigrants for 9 million. Oh my that is so much. :drama2:
In Australia :australia: with a population of 20 million had just like you know um err 149,000.
As of June 2006, 25% of the population was born overseas.
Do we have problems, yeap. Do we have solutions, somewhat. Is it multiculturalism that is the problem? When generation is general the worst... from my observations (not backed by hard data) it is not the first, third or fourth generation. It is the children of the first generation (who may or may not be themselves first), whose parents live in the past 20 years ago and keep attitudes that would be out of date in their originating country and their children that they raise are outside both their parents culture and the one they are in now. No culture, no community, no responsibility.
Kadagar_AV
06-16-2009, 00:09
rasoforos, it's kind of irritating how you jump in here, claim everything is bogus, and then leave.
Where's your statistics, or analysis? In what way to you contribute to this thread, except every now and then popping in saying everything is wrong?
Papewaio, 40.000 doesnt sound like much? consider this:
1. over 20 years that's about 10%
2. It's been going on for quite some time.
3. contrary to Australia, we accept anyone. People who need medical care and so on...
4. These 40.000 is not spread out evenly over sweden, about 90% of them end up in one of the suburban ghettos in one of swedens 3 biggest cities.
Maybe you have a better system to integrate them?
Maybe you have a lower percentage of immigrants straight from war zones?
I do however agree that the children of the first generation is the worst.
Nice conspiracy theories guys :2thumbsup:
Amazing how many things N. Korea and Sweden have in common afterall...
At least admit you don't have anything to contribute, and stop trolling.
It's amazing how many things rasoforos and a troll have in common afterall...
Where's your statistics, or analysis? In what way to you contribute to this thread, except every now and then popping in saying everything is wrong?
Easy. He doesn't. He pops in, says things like "LOL BLOGS" or "LOL NORTH KOREA AND SWEDEN ARE SIMILAR LOL" then leaves waiting for a reaction. Aka trolling.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-16-2009, 00:29
If I recall, major newspapers rely on the Swedish government for funding, therefore it is against their interests to report anything that can be deemed as anti-immigration. Probably why the SD have not recieved a lot of coverage.
Nice conspiracy theories guys :2thumbsup:
Amazing how many things N. Korea and Sweden have in common afterall...
That isn't necessarily a conspiracy theory, it seems pretty practical for the newspapers to be doing.
Papewaio
06-16-2009, 00:47
Papewaio, 40.000 doesnt sound like much? consider this:
It is half per capita of what Australia allows in.
1. over 20 years that's about 10%
2. It's been going on for quite some time.
3. contrary to Australia, we accept anyone. People who need medical care and so on...
4. These 40.000 is not spread out evenly over sweden, about 90% of them end up in one of the suburban ghettos in one of swedens 3 biggest cities.
1. 25% of Australias are born outside of Australia. So 10% means that you are less then halfway to what Australia does.
2. Likewise, the white Australia policy has been dead for a time, despite right wing nutters like One Nation trying to rewind the clock to a time period that never actually existed.
3. The perception is false as displayed by the stats. Australia accept twice as many per capita immigrants. Sure 2/3 of of them are from the skilled migration path, but that means 30% or 45,000 come from other sources.
A separate 13,000 are for refugee and others who would be persecuted in their homelands.
Maybe you have a better system to integrate them?
Maybe you have a lower percentage of immigrants straight from war zones?
Yeap about 90% of immigrants are skilled or the family of ones already in Aus. So maybe the solution for Sweden isn't to decrease immigration but to add more skilled streamed immigration.
Double it to 80,000 a year but add in 40,000 plumbers, professors and publicans.
Most of my data is a year old:
Here is the current data:
http://www.immi.gov.au/about/reports/annual/2007-08/html/overview/the-year-at-a-glance.htm
Family Stream: 49 870
Skilled Stream: 108 452
Total Migration Program outcome 158 630
Humanitarian Program visas granted 13 014
Kadagar_AV
06-16-2009, 01:47
well, quite a difference then...
I wouldnt mind skilled workers coming to sweden.
So, as you see, there is quite a difference between your immigration force and swedens... I'm glad australia makes it work :)
I am in no way opposed to immigration, just uncontrolled immigration.
And I don't like it when all of a sudden schools are closed cause of muslim holidays... *no joke*
Maybe I'm conservative, but I do believe it's the immigrants who should adapt, not the society.
Of course, to some extent the society must adapt too, sweden just takes it way too far.
I am in no way opposed to immigration, just uncontrolled immigration.
Of course, to some extent the society must adapt too, sweden just takes it way too far.
:yes:
Problem is with countries like Britain, Japan, Sweden, etc, they don't have the large landmass unlike Russia, Austrialia, America and Canada. So while some Americans complain about Mexicans, that is nothing compared to areas with no land.
Papewaio
06-16-2009, 02:36
Australia has a large land mass but not enough water. Most states operate under water restrictions. Over 90% of the people live in cities, so there isn't actually that much areas where people can live when one factors in desert, farms and places to work.
40% of Australians live in 2 cities. The only capital city not on the coast is an artificial one for the federal parliament... Canberra only has 1.5% of the population.
Yeah, thinking about it, that is the problem of large countries. There are probably solutions, but they would be very expensive.
Australia has problems with certain groups as well.
Tribesman
06-16-2009, 09:24
Australia has problems with certain groups as well.
Yes they do , australians
Yes they do , australians
In a way. Can't do a backroom search, but there was this article in the ozzy riots hread a few years back, letter from an Australian cop. Was about a known criminal Libanese family, he had to work against the same paralysing political correctness found in European countries.
Furunculus
06-16-2009, 10:05
Australia's policy is very sensible, admit people it needs + some of the needy.
Agreed, it's somewhat harsh but it's only fair that you provide for yourself imho. We should look for the Ozzy's for advice.
rasoforos, it's kind of irritating how you jump in here, claim everything is bogus, and then leave.
A view from more than one Swede alone would do good, you know; to get a balanced view..
It does indeed sound like North Korea; I'd be quite surprised to hear that this is actually the status quo in my neighbouring country. It is governmental censorship as it is laid out here.
Tribesman
06-16-2009, 17:01
In a way. Can't do a backroom search, but there was this article in the ozzy riots hread a few years back
Ah the beach race riots that turned out to be the result of silly false rumours and lots of hype.
That time round it was the lebanese who were the evil immigrants , makes a change from the evil koreans, italians, vietnamese, greeks, jews, muslims or whoever else is the favourite flavour for the bigots of the day.
So Frag do you remember that topic well ?
Pretty similar to this one , lots of crazy allegations, mindless generalisations, dodgy blog links and even dodgier crime "statistics".
letter from an Australian cop. Was about a known criminal Libanese family
Of course the policeman, that was funny .
Thanks for reminding me , it really was a classic.
A complaint by a policeman from the beach district.
An area reknowned for criminality, endemic corruption, institutionalised racism and having a very long history of drug dealing.....by the police department:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Papewaio
06-17-2009, 02:21
The one thing that is consistent in all the groups is that all groups produce idiots.
The funny thing with the Lebanese is that there is at least two distinct groups within Sydney alone and the infighting is quite high.
Add in the Bikie gangs and the turf war between them. The neo-bikie gang of Notorious is giving the Hells Angels a run for their money.
Now Notorious is a next generation gang and has Lebanese leadership. The thing one has to look at is that every set of immigrants has their criminal elements. When it comes to drugs and prostitution every group has dealers, users and abusers. It is not like Notorious are the first or the last.
My home-town was basically all white and the amazing thing is, half the arguments I read from racists websites saying about "blacks" etc, I seen it with my own eyes done by "white" people. The thing I found in common though, it was usually all examples are from very poor, uneducated backgrounds.
So if anything, from this alone, it looks like the problem is with poor uneducated and even perhaps, misplaced people, all crammed together in boiling pot of a ghetto environment.
It is a number 1 fact that majority of crime inside these pockets, so while some of the statistics I heard from America say that more crime are committed by black people, if you look at where it occurs, all the crime is coming from these cramped destitute pockets which the majority of them are "all black".
So the problem as I see it, it isn't multi-culturalism, or the invasion of the "darker skinned". It is more to do with distribution of wealth and problems of society. The rise of the problem comes as more and more people are going into these pockets and it makes the areas stand out more, shower the darker side of our society.
Oh, I can also list countless professionals from the middle east, "black", etc, that I know personally and I can vouch for being model citizens.
Beskar, no one here is claiming otherwise. I never thought that "dirty Muslims" are ruining the Swedish society. I think the policies on immigration are ruining Swedish society. Bringing so many immigrants in such a small amount of time, while cramming them into projects and ghettos, who cannot connect with Swedish society and certain few actually go against Swedish culture only deepens an ethnical divide between the two groups.
Proletariat
06-17-2009, 05:33
excuse me
Beskar, no one here is claiming otherwise. I never thought that "dirty Muslims" are ruining the Swedish society. I think the policies on immigration are ruining Swedish society. Bringing so many immigrants in such a small amount of time, while cramming them into projects and ghettos, who cannot connect with Swedish society and certain few actually go against Swedish culture only deepens an ethnical divide between the two groups.
My apologises, I was just stating that I don't think the roots is to do with things such as skin colour and other various things. But in-line with your statement, it is the policies such as population getting crammed into projects and ghettos and cannot connect with society. So in a sense, our posts agree on that.
Incongruous
06-17-2009, 09:13
Yes they do , australians
Lets not leave out Lebanese.
Furunculus
06-17-2009, 09:51
My home-town was basically all white and the amazing thing is, half the arguments I read from racists websites saying about "blacks" etc, I seen it with my own eyes done by "white" people. The thing I found in common though, it was usually all examples are from very poor, uneducated backgrounds.
So if anything, from this alone, it looks like the problem is with poor uneducated and even perhaps, misplaced people, all crammed together in boiling pot of a ghetto environment.
It is a number 1 fact that majority of crime inside these pockets, so while some of the statistics I heard from America say that more crime are committed by black people, if you look at where it occurs, all the crime is coming from these cramped destitute pockets which the majority of them are "all black".
So the problem as I see it, it isn't multi-culturalism, or the invasion of the "darker skinned". It is more to do with distribution of wealth and problems of society. The rise of the problem comes as more and more people are going into these pockets and it makes the areas stand out more, shower the darker side of our society.
Oh, I can also list countless professionals from the middle east, "black", etc, that I know personally and I can vouch for being model citizens.
you come from an all white town........... and are surpised that all the crime was committed by whites........?!?!
that aside, as Karl said, no-one is claiming that non-whites are inherently inferior, the problem lies in uncontrolled immigration into a society that forgets to demand assimilation.
because many of these immigrants come from backward countries they have the following disadvantages:
> the are poorly skilled, and thus likely to end up concentrated in poor areas of advanced western countries.
> they are unfamilar with western social norms, so yes they will possibly drink from the toilet bowl, take a dump in the park, etc.
> and on top of this if they have a different skin colour it only 'helps' to emphasise their differences from the native population.
this concentration in the poor areas of the receiving country has the following impacts on the local population:
> greatly dilutes the social structures and ties that the disadvantaged depend on to a greater degree than the wealthy.
> causes extra pressure on the public services used locally by the poorer locals who depend on public services the most.
> causes resentment when taking in immigrants with no job prospects leads to additional crime on top of that already there.
Why should countries take in illiterate economic migrants from backward countries which will only result in distressing the locals who have to live next to their 'bizarre' cultural habits, and causing extra pressure on public services and jobs for those who need the most help in their OWN society, as well as bringing in additional imported crime?
A nation-states duty is to the welfare of ITS citizens, not as a charity.
p.s. i have never met an asbo-advert hindu/indian, they all seem to live fantastically law-abiding lives and end up as doctors. we need more of them frankly.
you come from an all white town........... and are surpised that all the crime was committed by whites........?!?!
That wasn't my point, I was saying what are claimed that others do, were done there by "whites", thus, the idea that it is just foreigners/immigrants is stupid.
This was further explained in my reply to Karl.
(as for no one is claiming, there was a few "interesting" posts like the one in the Watchtower. Just because the moderators do their job doesn't mean it is not "no one")
Furunculus
06-17-2009, 10:36
i read that 'interesting' post from kadagar, and i had no problem with its validity as a statement of fact.
that fact that you find it uncomfortable does not mean that it does not happen, and does not allow you to twist its meaning in its absence to imply that he stated that all black people do as given in the example.
and does not allow you to twist its meaning in its absence to imply that he stated that all black people do as given in the example.
Take that to that thread, also, he did. Saying a "race" of people do something implies they all do it. It is not twisting at all. It is the same context as "English people go around drinking tea" implies that the English people as a whole go around drinking tea which openly suggests in essence that English people do that.
Another example is this: "McDonalds tastes bad", which means that McDonalds as a whole, remember I am not saying "Some of McDonalds" or any other limiting or qualifying statement referring to the scalar level, tastes bad.
Another example of what wasn't done. "Beskar has read some of Chomsky's studies" this implies "Beskar has not read all of Chomsky's studies" the fact I put that limiting/qualifying statement of "some" changes the meaning. On the other had "Beskar has read Chomsky's studies" implies that I have read them all.
Is the concept difficult to grasp? Please enlighten me.
If it isn't a deliberate twisting it's at least a huge assumption with very little to go for.
Furunculus
06-17-2009, 11:29
Take that to that thread, also, he did. Saying a "race" of people do something implies they all do it. It is not twisting at all. It is the same context as "English people go around drinking tea" implies that the English people as a whole go around drinking tea which openly suggests in essence that English people do that.
he was talking about an example of a problem, so he talked about the specific problem, i.e. non-western immigrants who distress their native neighbours by doing things that western people find disgusting, like; drinking from the toilet bowl and taking a dump in the local park.
the fact that he didn't make a grovelling caveat to the effect that he was only referring to individual events is irrelevant, he was talking about the problem, not the non-western immigrants who do know what a toilet is for because they are not part of the problem and thus do not cause distress to the natives.
How does that actually change anything? All you did was replace the race label used with "non-western immigrants" which still implies as a whole that they do that. Change the label as much as you like, it doesn't change my point/objection of him stereotyping based on "race".
Never know, I could be one of these "non-western immigrants" and I would like to think I don't drink out of toilet, I never specified anywhere I was or not, or are you assuming I am not therefore "it's all good". Treat others like you would like to treat yourself.
I suggest you do this, replace the label with "UKNDA members" and that is now my view. If you are offended by this, remember to point out those "grovelling caveat" in the future. Because going back and replacing his label with "UKNDA members", if you aren't offended, I would be truly surprised.
It is a fact you do have to make those "grovelling caveat" because believe it or not, it is offending people. It is just best to go "Look sorry, *blah blah with that grovelling caveat" or are you really sitting there going "I see nothing wrong with it, as I am not that label. It is there fault they are offended".
Furunculus
06-17-2009, 11:59
you know what, i am simply not interested to continuing this, you have a level of 'sensitivity' to the perception of causing offense to others that i find simply ridiculous, and for the record I don't care a jot whether you are an immigrant or not, non-western or otherwise.
and no, i'm not offended if you consider UKNDA members to drink from toilet bowls and take a dump behind trees. lol.
There is a famous poem you know, by Martin Niemöller, I would like to share it with you. This is the English translation, but the original is in German.
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
Then they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
I did not protest;
I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me.
As for your edit/NDA statement, the fact you can laugh about it says a lot (in a good way). Also, I doubt you necessarily prescribe to what the original poster was saying, however, I had to explain exactly due to clarity due to you saying I was twisting it, therefore, I had to explain myself in order to show I wasn't actually twisting it.
Furunculus
06-17-2009, 12:52
There is a famous poem you know, by Martin Niemöller, I would like to share it with you. This is the English translation, but the original is in German.
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
Then they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
I did not protest;
I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me.
As for your edit/NDA statement, the fact you can laugh about it says a lot (in a good way).
Also, I doubt you necessarily prescribe to what the original poster was saying, however, I had to explain exactly due to clarity due to you saying I was twisting it, therefore, I had to explain myself in order to show I wasn't actually twisting it.
*once more in the spirit of good-natured debate*
yes i know the poem, and yes it is very important, however where does it fit here?
cheers, i am pretty thick skinned (read: intolerant of the hyper-sensitive)
and no, i don't prescribe to what you interpret Kadagar to have said, which is a racist attack on black people.
i do recognise the truth of what he says about the cultural shock of being confronted by the 'limited' social niceties of people from backward countries. when i lived in africa the majority of new enrollment kids brought to kamuzu akademy had to be taught what a toilet was for, they'd never seen one before they started at the akademy.
and yes, i would be mighty ticked-off if i was a parent and people started taking a dump in the park where my kids play. i would be resentful if i found out they weren't genuine asylum seekers and merely economic migrants by another name. i would be doubly resentful if they lived on social housing and clogged up doctors waiting lists. i would be even more resentful if the crime-rate rocketed and i was surrounded by people whose cultural values were wildly different from my own.
i would be forced to ask; "what the hell is my Gov't doing to let so many of these people in?"
Tribesman
06-17-2009, 18:20
Its funny that you are talking about resenting immigrants for not fitting with your cultural values, when in your state people are currently burning immigrants out of their homes because they don't fit with the local culture.
wut
edit: ah, that
Sometimes you would almost forget that england is absolutely packed with white trash.
Tribesman
06-17-2009, 19:39
Sometimes you would almost forget that england is absolutely packed with white trash.
Leaving aside that I said state not country and those racist scum celebrate their proud British culture not English
Sometimes you would almost forgret that Holland, Australia and Sweden are packed with white trash, not to forget Ireland too of course.
Wierd though isn't it, I was doing this job out west, pure traditional europeans, no outside influence at all really , never heard of that multiculturalism .
They were all still taking a dump in the bushes, or the fields as bushes are quite scarce.
Though the local pub/shop/vet/petrol pump/chandler/butcher/gunstore did actually have one of them real toilet things.
White trash in the Netherlands, where. We don't have things like that, would be absolutely unheard of.
Tribesman
06-18-2009, 01:49
White trash in the Netherlands, where. We don't have things like that, would be absolutely unheard of.
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Similar incident, or really any incident, in the Netherlands please, good luck.
[insert here]
oh you can't
:yes::yes::yes::yes:
I quite liked not having the smiley's working tbh...
mwah, if I score seven on the Tribes scale, with great smiley usage comes great responsibility.
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Fragony/TheTwoTowers_WormtongueAndKingTheod.jpg
Come on Tribes, I let the usual pathetic insinuations pass, be a good sport and gimme racist attacks in the Netherlands.
First link on google was this.
Netherlands: Racist attacks increase
THE MURDER of Theo Van Gogh, who revered Pym Fortuyn and specialised in verbal attacks against Muslims and other minorities, has led to a heightening of racism in society and a series of violent attacks, including a disgusting bomb attack on an Islamic school in Eindhoven on 7 November.
These racist attacks have come in the context of intensifying stigmatisation and discrimination against Muslims, who feel increasingly alienated as a result of religious and racial discrimination, police harassment, unemployment, low pay and poor housing.
Muslims also feel angry about Dutch Prime Minister Balkenende's participation in the so-called "war on terror".
Offensief, the Dutch section of the CWI, mobilised youth in Amsterdam and Rotterdam to protest against this racist terror and government cuts. At these actions, we stressed the necessity for the workers' movement to lead a campaign against the racist attacks and to unite the working class. Such unity was demonstrated recently in the Netherlands as hundreds of thousands of workers and youth, black and white, converged on the streets to oppose the government's vicious cutbacks.
Capitalism has created the conditions for the rise of racism in society with cuts, right wing demagogy and the scapegoating of immigrants for society's ills. This is why Offensief argues that the Dutch workers' movement must advance a socialist programme that includes the demands of decent housing, jobs, a living wage and a fully funded health care and education system in order to combat racism and to unite all working people.
lol that's the blog of the leader of the Socialist Party, well done :laugh4:
Tribesman
06-18-2009, 09:51
Racist attacks in the Netherlands?
Of course they don't happen , Dutch white trash don't exist and wouldn't do that sort of thing , and when they do do it they don't really do it but are just found guilty in the courts because they are innocent but white.
I see Blood & Honour have another festival of culture coming up in Holland , Arnhem this time . It must be catering for all those non-dutch trash that just visit the Netherlands eh.
Racist attacks in the Netherlands? Of course they don't happen.
glad we agree.
Furunculus
06-18-2009, 10:08
Its funny that you are talking about resenting immigrants for not fitting with your cultural values, when in your state people are currently burning immigrants out of their homes because they don't fit with the local culture.
I am not talking about ME resenting immigrants at all.
I refer to the million odd people who feel so alienated from mainstream politics on the issue of immigration that they feel compelled to vote for the BNP.
Furunculus
06-18-2009, 10:12
Leaving aside that I said state not country and those racist scum celebrate their proud British culture not English
Sometimes you would almost forgret that Holland, Australia and Sweden are packed with white trash, not to forget Ireland too of course.
Wierd though isn't it, I was doing this job out west, pure traditional europeans, no outside influence at all really , never heard of that multiculturalism .
They were all still taking a dump in the bushes, or the fields as bushes are quite scarce.
Though the local pub/shop/vet/petrol pump/chandler/butcher/gunstore did actually have one of them real toilet things.
there is lots of racist scum that support England exclusively, who loath and despise GB.
Awesome, and yet irrelevant as to whether they were traditional europeans, tho i imagine if the moved into downtown Malmo then they would cause just as much distress if they relieved themselves in the local park. Indeed people might be even more annoyed were they to find out that these immigrants knew what a toilet was for.
I do still kinda wonder where the Swedish position their toilet boil if other people can see one drinking from it. I mean
Meneldil
06-18-2009, 11:57
Therefore, I bring the topic of debate: Has multiculturalism failed Europe?
Multiculturalism is crap, period. I can't even understand why some people still advocate it after its obvious failures and shortcomings.
Now, a few things.
- I'm not sure the US are doing much better. Go to New-York. Harlem and the Bronx are still, AFAIK, the most dangerous places. Areas with large latinos/black communities are poorer and more dangerous, in general. I don't really see how that's different from the situation in Sweden or the UK.
- So far, I don't think we have a better system than multiculturalism. The french republican system (which I consider vastly superior than multiculturalism) for example worked perfectly with poles, italians, spaniards, romanians, armenians, russians, basques, bretons, savoyards and so on, but it failed big time when it came to africans, gypsies, muslims in general, corsicans.
It is not simply a question of Islam/religion/african culture: one would wonder why the french basque are mostly quiet, while basques from Spain just can't accept to be part of a Spanish community. One would wonder why corsicans still blow up things, while bretons and savoyards gave up a while ago. One would wonder why integrating armenians was much easier 80 years ago than integrating algerians is nowadays.
So my question: if we all agree that multiculturalism is crap, what do we do now ? Ban all immigration? Force other people to live by their new country's rules through reeducation ?
Can you do, nothing. Immigrationstop, yeah. And be glad you don't live in such a neighbourhood.
Tribesman
06-19-2009, 02:41
I do still kinda wonder where the Swedish position their toilet boil if other people can see one drinking from it. I mean
Have you ever considered that the whole water story is bull ?
Have you ever considered that the whole water story is bull ?
That would be the ultimate consequence of such a question, but I read it as a manner of speech rather then something to be taken litteraly. Maybe Kandahar himself can shed some light on that.
Megas Methuselah
06-19-2009, 08:14
Well, this looks kind of familiar. Not entirely the same situation, but familiar all the same.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090515/wfive_gangs_090516/20090516?hub=WFive
http://www.leaderpost.com/news/Regina+judge+sentence+four+killing+Wilton+Lavallee/1663158/story.html
http://www.leaderpost.com/news/Regina+judge+sentence+four+killing+Wilton+Lavallee/1663158/story.html
What's the name of that boyband? What a bunch of losers.
Tribesman
06-19-2009, 09:10
I read it as a manner of speech rather then something to be taken litteraly.
A manner of speech?
So "they drink water from the toilet" could mean the room not the actual crapper itself .
Not surprising really that they have to be told not to drink from there, after all a tap is a tap but a tap in the bathroom is very different from a tap in the kitchen.
after all a tap is a tap but a tap in the bathroom is very different from a tap in the kitchen.
If you don't think it is you must have rather bland interior with no design-stuff whatsoever. Same tap in the bathroom as in the kitchen, geez.
A manner of speech?
So "they drink water from the toilet" could mean the room not the actual crapper itself .
Not surprising really that they have to be told not to drink from there, after all a tap is a tap but a tap in the bathroom is very different from a tap in the kitchen.
Well, for the sake of not letting this thread develop into another episode of the Fragony & Tribesman show, let's assume some posters expressed themselves a bit "unlucky". It's also a bit silly to limit the debate on where immigrants drink water: kitchen, bathroom or living room :rolleyes:
It seems like there's indeed a disproportionate amount of immigrants in crime statistics; but I think the wrong conclusion is drawn. They are not criminals because the difference in culture.
There's a disproportionate amount of people who grew up/live in poverty and/or are uneducated in crime statistics, which shouldn't come as a surprise. Therefore, I think the debate should more focus on the reasons for a disproportionate amount of immigrants living in poverty/being uneducated.
Is the cause a difference in culture, a failing immigration policy or just something we should accept as normal and which can only be resolved by time (the poor will manage to have their children get a decent education/a job and they, on their turn, will work themselves out of poverty; others living in poverty will stay where they are)?
I think it's the latter, but that's something nobody wants to hear in our current society where there always must be something or someone to blame if things go wrong and solutions must be instant and preferably simple and easy to execute. We modern people can no longer accept that a) sometimes things are what they are; b) some problems need time, plenty of time.
As long as the West is rich, we will have immigrants. Closing our borders won't work, people live in much worse circumstances than we do, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that they want to come over. Even something as barbaric as shooting them at our borders won't stop them to come over. Immigration is inevitable; it's a consequence of living in the rich part of the world imo.
Anyway, as for many immigrants living in poverty.
My grandfather lived in poverty and the first years of his life, my father grew up in circumstances we would nowadays call inhuman (a very small house, no running water, no garden, one stove in the living room, rooms were ice cold in Winter, etc.). My grandfather worked very hard as a carpenter and managed to get out of that neighbourhood and he bought a modest home, even though his wife had a weak health and often needed expensive medical care (and she sometimes didn't take care of herself, so that there would be more money available for her children; she died aged 56, before I was born). He and my grandmother ensured both my uncle and father finished high school; my father even had the opportunity to become a teacher in primary school, further education was, alas, unaffordable. And now I'm here with a university degree, a more than decent job and salary. Most people of my father's generation or their children now live in decent homes and have jobs, some are still stuck in poverty. And now there are other people living in poverty and lacking education. I am confident that within 50 years, most of the descendants of those now living in poverty, will have it better and we'll probably have "new poor" people (and people who, even after several generations, are still stuck there) by the time and people (among them the descendants of those who are now poor immigrants) will blame governments, the poor themselves or what not.
:shrug:
Megas Methuselah
06-19-2009, 21:58
http://www.leaderpost.com/news/Regina+judge+sentence+four+killing+Wilton+Lavallee/1663158/story.html
What's the name of that boyband? What a bunch of losers.
Native Syndicate Killers. Don't be so quick to judge, bro:
His statement added to what court had already heard — that the Keepnesses, Pewean and McNabb came from troubled backgrounds rife with substance abuse issues — their own or those around them — lack of opportunity, racism, abuse, and lack of responsible role models. Each gravitated toward a gang lifestyle and the violence that eventually followed.
Tribesman
06-20-2009, 01:32
If you don't think it is you must have rather bland interior with no design-stuff whatsoever
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
A tap is a tap frag, they come in all shapes, colours, sizes but they are still taps and will always be taps
So what is the difference in the taps Frag?
It is a big difference and it has absolutely nothing to do with their appearance.:yes:
So what is the difference in the taps Frag?
style broken please fix.
Papewaio
06-20-2009, 19:29
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
A tap is a tap frag, they come in all shapes, colours, sizes but they are still taps and will always be taps
So what is the difference in the taps Frag?
It is a big difference and it has absolutely nothing to do with their appearance.:yes:
Most bathrooms I know have potable water, not just kitchens.
Adrian II
06-20-2009, 21:51
These numbers are just insane. But don't mention it.What is that supposed to mean? These numbers are mentioned and discussed at every level of Dutch society. The problem of Moroccan youth has been totally acknowledged since at least 2002. What has not been acknowledged is the fascist view that their culture is inferior and therefore entirely to blame for the situation.
I am now 32, and my opinion of Maroccans have improved considerably, that is because I am now older and meet older Maroccans. But there is a major problem with maroccan youth.Quite right. I am glad you start to make this distinction, too. We have a criminal street culture in this country. Since most young Moroccans come from socially or morally inpoverished and semi-literate backgrounds, they constitute an inordinately large part of this street culture.
The Lemur's reference to the way American Italians used to be viewed during the first generations after their massive immigration is on the mark, as is so often the case with that gentleman. There are many parallels, impoverishment and a 'foreign' religion being some of them.
Tribesman
06-20-2009, 23:04
Most bathrooms I know have potable water, not just kitchens.
Check your plumbing. The cold water tap in the kitchen will feed directly from the mains, usually all the rest come via the tank.
What is that supposed to mean? These numbers are mentioned and discussed at every level of Dutch society. The problem of Moroccan youth has been totally acknowledged since at least 2002.
I guess that's fair, but talking is really all that is done, at least an improvement since at least 2002 however small. It's a situation but it's treated like a discussion.
Banquo's Ghost
06-21-2009, 12:04
I guess that's fair, but talking is really all that is done, at least an improvement since at least 2002 however small. It's a situation but it's treated like a discussion.
Surely discussion is where understanding starts?
There is a great deal of emotion and prejudice on both sides that clouds a serious examination of these issues. Witness this thread, where the challenges of immigration and multiculturalism are so easily conflated. Whilst clearly linked, they not necessarily the same thing.
This (rather harrowing, so read with care) article (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/gang-rape-is-it-a-race-issue-1711381.html) demonstrates some of the problem. In the UK, gang rape is increasing and particularly among young black men. These are not immigrants in the main, but second, third or more generations of resident. An excess of political correctness means that many of the statistics necessary to analyse the problem are simply not available.
The issue is clearly much more complex than simply race. Middle class black males don't appear to indulge such behaviour, so there is very clearly a poverty related cause. Education and "connect" to society is sorely lacking in these gangs. Objectification of women from a myriad of sources is an aggravating factor. There is very evidently an alienation culture taken to the nth degree by teenagers without hope beyond the approval of an anti-establishment gang membership.
Yet it is undeniable that such gang rapes are almost exclusively the preserve of young black men and that similarly disenfranchised white men appear not to exhibit such behaviours as often. One would think that these issues would attract careful study to promote understanding and solutions.
I submit that the "cult of multiculturalism" (with due deference to Fragony :bow:) ie, the political cowardice that promotes a kind of one-sided blindness about racial and cultural issues rather than a celebration of diversity bounded by an existing (if dynamic) cultural consensus is at root fault here. That kind of multiculturalism actually demeans and excludes those needing to belong to a society and have a stake in its future. Creating "victims" - and incidentally, allowing the political class to wash its hands of the necessary interventions to alleviate the poverty and lack of opportunity which is the swamp in which too many people of all backgrounds drown.
Surely discussion is where understanding starts?
Discuss what, it's all pretty basic, get a job and be a good boy. Can we please accept having no common goal whatsoever, they are welcome here but what do these lefties want from me. Get a job, don't rob grannies, don't touch your sister, niece is family as well, there, done.
Like Malmo, one of the schools there, with about a thousand children, has one or two students who were born in Sweden.
That would be Rosengårds school.
And it has been like that for as long as I have lived really. Rosengård is one of the ghettos in Sweden.
The apartments are cheap so it's the only place immigrants can afford to move into which naturally causes the problems that goes hand in hand with poverty and a goverment that doesn't know how to deal with the situation. However things have changed a bit.
More swedes have been into Rosengård lately due to the fact that danish people are buying up all the apartments except in Rosengård.
In 2007 and 2008 danish people were the largest group that immigrated to Malmö.
let me post the vid you sent me. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnP-XzB_U0)
Ah yes, that little gem.
There are some truths to it but most of it is pure BS.
1. The jews walk around quite freely in the city and doesn't hide that they are jews. The jewish temple is always clean and doesn't get attacked or defiled. And this is more then you can say about the mosque which suffers from graffiti problems daily.
2. The thing about the school menu was also purely made up. If you go to a public school in Malmö, you get the exact same meals as the other public schools. You can read in the local newspaper each day and see what will be on the menu. The schools doesn't have the ability to pick and choose.
Naturally the schools provide a muslim alternitive just as they do with the vegitarians and vegans or those that are allergic to various things.
So the reporter either,
1. went to a private school in which case they may serve what they want
2. Saw that the school provide a seperate menu for muslims and thought this was horrible because CBN thinks muslims should eat pork.
3. Never visisted a school in Malmö and just listened to a local Sweden democrat and fell for his lies.
4. Just made it up.
Considering this is CBN, my guess is nr.4
3. Their focus on Sweden Democrats was disturbing to say the least.
They could have interviewed any other politican from the rival parties and they would have gotten a better image of it. But I guess if they did they would have gotten a image that doesn't fit with CBN's anti-islam policy.
But the problem with Malmö, like with the problem in Göteborg and other places, aren't because of local politicans.
The ones in Malmö are fully aware of the problem as is really anyone here. Problem is that we can't do anything about it. Most of the immigrants in Rosengård try their best to get out of that place but because of the actions of a minority they are all painted in a bad light.
This is being controlled up in Stockholm and this is where the changes need to happen.
Adrian II
06-21-2009, 15:45
Discuss what, it's all pretty basic, get a job and be a good boy. Can we please accept having no common goal whatsoever, they are welcome here but what do these lefties want from me. Get a job, don't rob grannies, don't touch your sister, niece is family as well, there, done.Fortunately we now have migrant leaders and politicians who take this line. 'My' party always banked on them and nowadays we have them. Tough cookies like Marcouch, Aboutaleb, Elatik. They're like the Magnificent Seven who help and teach the Moroccan and Turkish citizens to clean up their own 'town'.
Only the liberal party (VDD) has a migrant politician of similar status in Laetitia Griffith. The remarkable thing is that the christian-democratic party that always sought to appease islam (in order to capture the religious vote) has none such figureheads.
Nowadays we also have plans and schemes that work. For instance in Rotterdam where 'intervention teams' take care of entire neighborhoods and make them livable again. A Rotterdam borough like 'Het Oude Noorden' is a good example of what can be achieved. Two years ago it was valued by its inhabitants at 2.3 our of 10. These days it gets 6.2 out of ten.
Nowadays we also have plans and schemes that work.
Need I say more
Adrian II
06-21-2009, 16:27
Need I say moreNot for the moment. You may want to read that Toussaint book, it's very good.
Not for the moment. You may want to read that Toussaint book, it's very good.
Je ne have a clue pas? What book?
Adrian II
06-21-2009, 16:39
Je ne have a clue pas? What book?Um, that's funny. The numbers you quoted plus the anonymous source in Amsterdam all come from Toussaint's book...
As in: Paul Andersson Toussaint, Staatssecretaris of seriecrimineel. Het smalle pad van de Marokkaan.
It's the talk of the town man. :juggle2:
Um, that's funny. The numbers you quoted plus the anonymous source in Amsterdam all come from Toussaint's book...
As in: Paul Andersson Toussaint, Staatssecretaris of seriecrimineel. Het smalle pad van de Marokkaan.
It's the talk of the town man. :juggle2:
Ah ok, heard about it the book yes, so it's more then a desillusioned dreamer's diary?
Adrian II
06-21-2009, 18:50
[..] so it's more then a desillusioned dreamer's diary?You bet.
Tribesman
06-21-2009, 20:48
it's all pretty basic, get a job and be a good boy.
Yeah its all pretty basic.
Slight problem on the get a job front though .
I did hear this strange thing about people working in employment agencies who were just taking job applications and throwing them in the bin because they had small minded prejudices against any job applicant who might possibly have been either an arab or a muslim.
You must admit that such small minded people are a significant contributory factor in the problem.
Now I wonder if I can remember exactly which person said they indulged in such outright bigoted practices?
Could you possibly refresh my memory ....Frag?
Papewaio
06-22-2009, 02:09
Check your plumbing. The cold water tap in the kitchen will feed directly from the mains, usually all the rest come via the tank.
Nope, unless I want to put a rainwater tank it it all comes off the mains. The water for the shower, toilet, kitchen all have a common supply and it all can be turned off at the meter by a single tap. The only difference is some is diverted into a heater.
Could you possibly refresh my memory ....Frag?
Nope. Can only have said prejudices comfirmed so many times before you realise that it's not prejudice at all but bad work ethic. Kebab is really good but losing customers because you can't provide reliable workers is bad.
Be a good boy, get a job, and actually show up and don't call in sick the next day.
Tribesman
06-22-2009, 06:03
Nope. Can only have said prejudices comfirmed so many times before you realise that it's not prejudice
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
It is prejudice.
If I met a thousand Dutchmen who were racists it wouldn't confirm that all Dutchmen were racists.
Papewaio
06-22-2009, 06:18
No, but it would raise suspicions about your taste in Dutchmen...
Tribesman
06-22-2009, 06:35
I see what you mean about Australian plumbing now Pape , in your climate a mains fed VST would become a real major health hazard very quickly.
Megas Methuselah
06-22-2009, 06:46
Nope. Can only have said prejudices comfirmed so many times before you realise that it's not prejudice at all but bad work ethic. Kebab is really good but losing customers because you can't provide reliable workers is bad.
Be a good boy, get a job, and actually show up and don't call in sick the next day.
:inquisitive:
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
It is prejudice.
My actions certainly were biased, but if poor working ethic among north-africans is a prejudice.. Certainly not the mentality that is expected from workers here, if you spend half of the day as a wake-up service and the other half apologizing and promising improvement to your customers you get nothing done.
Papewaio
06-23-2009, 23:33
I see what you mean about Australian plumbing now Pape , in your climate a mains fed VST would become a real major health hazard very quickly.
Actually if it is a below ground tank and the water isn't still it wouldn't be as much of a problem... below ground the heat isn't an issue. Also in reality it is how still it is that determines how clean it is. Also the air temperature isn't all that high in Sydney now, and even in summer it isn't that high.
The problem is with apartments/townhouses and villas it probably is an added expense or 'eyesore' that strata doesn't want to deal with.
Rainwater tanks on the other hand are getting very popular here. Most of it is used as water for a garden, but with proper processing it is good stuff... well the only option when you live outside a city like my parents do. The biggest difference lately is that the government is subsidies for rain water tanks is making them popular in cities now too... which is fair enough given the water restrictions.
Tribesman
06-24-2009, 01:05
Actually if it is a below ground tank and the water isn't still it wouldn't be as much of a problem...
Undergrounds a different issue, they are entirely sealed .
The problem is with apartments/townhouses and villas it probably is an added expense or 'eyesore' that strata doesn't want to deal with.
Wouldn't be an eyesore as they are either inside the roof or in flat roof construction placed high up in a cupboard, its for gravity feed as unlike the underground storage they don't need a pump.
Also the air temperature isn't all that high in Sydney now, and even in summer it isn't that high.
Even in resistant tanks very high growth can kick off in the mid 20s
Rainwater tanks on the other hand
Are a seperate thing , thats a dual system.
Papewaio
06-24-2009, 01:22
Thing is strata pays for everything outside beyond the internal paint when it comes to external walls, floors and ceiling. They also pay for shared piping.
Anyhow given the way the mains system is setup in Sydney there is no need for a single residence reservoir. Larger apartment blocks might have a water reservoir but most of them aren't potable water but for the sprinkler system.
Tribesman
06-24-2009, 09:11
Anyhow given the way the mains system is setup in Sydney there is no need for a single residence reservoir.
The main benefit of the residential tank is for flow and pressure.
Adrian II
06-24-2009, 10:53
Thing is strata pays for everything outside beyond the internal paint when it comes to external walls, floors and ceiling. They also pay for shared piping.
The main benefit of the residential tank is for flow and pressure.Fascinating stuff, gentlemen. I trust you are both aware that if metal alloys are treated with aqueous sulphuric acid solution having a pH which does not exceed about 2, nickel and/or cobalt and iron will be dissolved with the formation of hydrogen sulphide which reacts with copper in the metal alloy to form a copper sulphide precipitate which contains at least one precious metal, so that the precipitate can be easily separated from the remaining solution which contains cobalt sulphate and/or nickel sulphate and ferrous sulphate, resulting in the merger of aesthetic olfactory values as pointed out by the OP?
Muahahaha Louis the Fat and Swedishfish, they are mine now.
Tribesman
06-24-2009, 11:16
resulting in the merger of aesthetic olfactory values as pointed out by the OP
Since the OP had the olfactory value of a dodgy blogger anything goes.:2thumbsup:
Since the OP had the olfactory value of a dodgy blogger anything goes.:2thumbsup:
Quite an interesting case, tell me what do you see when you are confronted with such information, do you ignore it by choice, do you take an active effort to mentally block it, or do you really can't see it. You are jumping on the wrong lap, because AdrianII will reluctantly comfirm that these numbers are indeed correct and most likely worse. Don't we AdrianII, you are a journalist, the guardian of truth and democracy.
Louis VI the Fat
06-24-2009, 11:38
Muahahaha Louis the Fat and Swedishfish, they are mine now.You know these are the exact words I've been longing to hear for years. All my (b)ass are belong to you.
But before we descend into unspeakable acts, there is one thing I feel I must ask you: exactly what do you mean? ~:confused:
Tribesman
06-24-2009, 12:33
Quite an interesting case, tell me what do you see when you are confronted with such information, do you ignore it by choice, do you take an active effort to mentally block it, or do you really can't see it.
Well frag, what I do when I am confronted by something like....
According to some estimates, it will be a Muslim majority city in no more then 10 years.
I look at it and laugh
Adrian II
06-24-2009, 12:44
You are jumping on the wrong lap, because AdrianII will reluctantly comfirm that these numbers are indeed correct and most likely worse. Don't we AdrianII, you are a journalist, the guardian of truth and democracy.I never uttered a word about the OP even though, as Tribesman put it, its olfactory quality reached to high heaven. The Malmo myth has already been taken apart by others, by Swedes to be precise.
And indeed, since I have to tell you where your own statistical references come from because you yourself don't seem to know, it means that I am your guardian as well. All this for free, too. Come to think of it, I'm a great guy. Thank you, thank you.
The Malmo myth has already been taken apart by others, by Swedes to be precise.
The Malmo what? I don't know of any myth watcha talking about. Sorry mia muca, AdrianII talking means Fragony is listening, but you are very, very wrong when it comes to these things.
Adrian II
06-24-2009, 14:30
The Malmo what? I don't know of any myth watcha talking about. Sorry mia muca, AdrianII talking means Fragony is listening, but you are very, very wrong when it comes to these things.
Sigh... #1 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=2259604&postcount=1)
Sigh... #1 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=2259604&postcount=1)
That is true ffs, what the hell is wrong with you. Do you actually wish any harm upon those people, do you not have any idea where this is going are you completely blind. This is not going to end well, it's going to be ugly and bloody, and I will be one of the ones making it ugly and bloody because I have no idea what to do otherwise you are making a monster out of me.
Tribesman
06-24-2009, 15:53
That is true ffs,
No it isn't , which is why it is laughable.
Yet you don't realise and hilariously jump from
Don't we AdrianII
to
you are very, very wrong
and
what the hell is wrong with you
Poor frag , so wrapped up in the mists of the myth that he has become blind.
I will be one of the ones making it ugly and bloody
I thought you said you had grown up since you made your lets beat up immigrants post
Furunculus
06-24-2009, 17:14
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,632290,00.html
in some happier news, germany found 1m extra muslims living within its borders, but no-one new they were there because they were so well integrated.
N
I thought you said you had grown up since you made your lets beat up immigrants post
I bloody did why don't you let me, I have been really really stupid, I am the first to admit that, I was wrong, you were right. But really ENOUGH. There is only so many times. Leave me alone it is just not fair.
LittleGrizzly
06-24-2009, 18:02
TBH Frag the comment, I will be one of the ones making it ugly and bloody, does make it sound like your just spoiling for a fight with some immigrants. Which is a bit of a nasty comment...
Though your point just may be misunderstood... maybe you could clarify what you mean by the comment...
Adrian II
06-24-2009, 18:19
That is true ffs, what the hell is wrong with you.Dear Fragony, the OP was taken apart by other posters. See for instance post #23 by Ironside. The fjordman was found less than credible, as Monsieur Rabbit pointed out. Don't blame me, please; read back what was written.
This is not going to end well, it's going to be ugly and bloody, and I will be one of the ones making it ugly and bloody because I have no idea what to do otherwise you are making a monster out of me.
The reason people make a monster out of you, is because you want to make things ugly and bloody. If you weren't trying to do that, then people obviously can't attempt to make a monster out of you.
Dear Fragony, the OP was taken apart by other posters.
No it isn't, that would be impossible since Sweden doesn't provide numbers. Really shame on you, girls can't go out wearing a skirt because they are scared of being raped. :daisy: this, excuse my french. NO.
Though your point just may be misunderstood... maybe you could clarify what you mean by the comment...
Rivers of blood, Powell saw it decades ago. He was right.
Adrian II
06-24-2009, 19:45
No it isn't, that would be impossible since Sweden doesn't provide numbers. Really shame on you, girls can't go out wearing a skirt because they are scared of being raped. :daisy: this, excuse my french. NO.Ironside came up with numbers. You clearly didn't read his post. And if it's true that a quarter of those migrants are Scandinavian, what you say makes no sense at all. Have a cup of tea and an orio, Fragony. The end is not nigh.
Well, today, finally it was ruled that Malmö women is able to bath topless (http://www.thelocal.se/20250/20090624/)in the public swimming pools. I assume this is also a possibility for the Muslim ghetto women. :2thumbsup:
Ironside came up with numbers.
no he didn't, and I am not even making sure.
Adrian II
06-24-2009, 20:55
no he didn't, and I am not even making sure.Well I am, since I am your guardian. Here are the official swedish immigration statistics (http://www.migrationsverket.se/infomaterial/om_verket/oh/ohstatistik_en.pdf) for 2008. As you can see the majority are from Europe and North America.
Anything else, sir?
Seamus Fermanagh
06-24-2009, 21:04
Adrian, thank you for arguing the point and providing evidence.
I would suggest to all reading that such behavior is a GOOD thing.
However, this topic seems to be imploding, so I'll give it a rest.
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