AP vs lethality

[Grade_A_Beef]

I'm playing as the Arverni at the moment, and I am just about to begin the war with the Romans. I have the choice of filling most of my army either with Teceitos/Alpine Phlanx or Batoroas (sp?) but I don't know which would be more effective on armored foes. The axemen have lower lethality but have AP, while the Batoroas get the high lethality longsword.

It would help a lot if someone told me if AP ever becomes more desirable (and when) over lethality, as I can tell that lethality is much more important on units with little armor.

[kekailoa]

If they're the Batroas from the north, get them for line troops and use the axemen as flankers and support. They're pretty lightly armored, so they won't stand up as well and the swordsmen have higher numbers, armor (I think) and the same morale and stamina.

[mountaingoat]

go hire some bastarne = end of rome

[satalexton]

Bataroas are excellent linetroops, I'd say they're the best non-hellene line troops.

[Maion Maroneios]

go hire some bastarne = end of rome
Yeah right. Especially their excellent armour shall stand very long against their pilae. Bastarnai commanded by a Makedonian Strategos now, that is an entire different thing.

Maion

[mountaingoat]

Yeah right. Especially their excellent armour shall stand very long against their pilae.

Maion

roman will not live long enough to throw more than one :laugh4:

[Grade_A_Beef]

I'll use Bataroas then.

Still, it'll be helpful to know if and when AP becomes more useful than lethality, because I plan to conquer the map with Arverni. The answer can help me determine how much Gaesatae I should use against the enemy. >_>

[Apázlinemjó]

I'll use Bataroas then.

Still, it'll be helpful to know if and when AP becomes more useful than lethality, because I plan to conquer the map with Arverni. The answer can help me determine how much Gaesatae I should use against the enemy. >_>

I think, AP becomes more useful against heavily armored units, like Thorakitai, Hoplites, Triarii, Medium -> Elit Phalanxes and such.

[satalexton]

units with AP allows them to go toe to toe with heavy units in a moshpit fight. Outside of that, their advantages are moot. Note, getting engaged into a moshpit is a challange in it's own right, it's not always easy to survive the missles and pikes while closing in....

[Grade_A_Beef]

Haha, yeah, that's true. I guess lethality is better in general then?

The Celts are surprisingly fun compared to other versions I've played (vanilla, RTR.) High charge bonus, abundant longswords in faction units, missiles before charge, and the occasional naked dude makes VH/M very easy... the romans rout on contact. I hope it'll stay like that even when I get to the steppes.

[Apázlinemjó]

Haha, yeah, that's true. I guess lethality is better in general then?

The Celts are surprisingly fun compared to other versions I've played (vanilla, RTR.) High charge bonus, abundant longswords in faction units, missiles before charge, and the occasional naked dude makes VH/M very easy... the romans rout on contact. I hope it'll stay like that even when I get to the steppes.

The steppe is a different story for barbarian factions. :P

[Grade_A_Beef]

Yeah, I know.....I prefer Pahlava :wall:

[Maion Maroneios]

The steppe is a different story for barbarian factions. :P
Not just a different story. Its their demise! I just love using Skythai to harass those pathetic Thrakes. Hehehe...:evilgrin:

Maion

[Atraphoenix]

barbaroi has no chance in steppes while nomads have no chance in the middle European forests.
phalanx in the middle both no chance to expand there.
(I do not mean player, AI)
Maybe because of that reason Roman AI is so passive in my campaigns.

P.S. AP is only for heavily armored troops. Lethality is good in general... In fact I do not see much difference. maybe %10 -20 on casualty. So I can advice the size, choose the unit which has more man if AP unit has more man use it if lethality unit has more man use it. Cavalry is mastered by player, AI is not capable of using cavalry wisely. (Phalanx lovers' frontal charge) so I was about to give up fighting with cavalry dominated factions. I got tired battling 1-2 hours of micromanaging.....

[Cute Wolf]

AP -> useful against crazy armoured units, such as katas or TAB
Lethality -> useful against less armoured, but numerous units (kill them more often)..

The Celts (Aedui, Avernii, Casse), do have a chance to give a little punch in the ball for Sauromatae, in my opinion... Just try to use Neitos with some solduros as back up... and hiring some native HA's on their own... at least their FMs are cavalry, and won't be killed by one charge... Getai fare even better, coz they can field their own HA's

Sweboz? They are really different story to say...

[Atraphoenix]

Sweboz? They are really different story to say...

sweboz needs no tactics just raise a huge army and use numerical superiority and curse gods why they have abandoned them.

sorry but that is the only survival for sweboz. getai AI always dominates middle europe even nearly wipe out sweboz. Plus I hate forest battles:wall: so why I always leave them alone.

[Ca Putt]

AP is sometimes vital for success but most AP troops suck at line duty-> you need good line holders. for those high lethality is not necessary but VERY usefull^^ as soon as you have the main roman line engaged storm in from the flanks with your AP dudes.

[Atraphoenix]

though I have not test them hillmen/most axemen have numerical advantage (240) on falxmen (160)
but no idea whether falxmen compensate this with their AP points (axemen around 1.3 falx around 1.6)
but hillmen are wiped out by high lethality units.

[Apázlinemjó]

though I have not test them hillmen/most axemen have numerical advantage (240) on falxmen (160)
but no idea whether falxmen compensate this with their AP points (axemen around 1.3 falx around 1.6)
but hillmen are wiped out by high lethality units.

Let's not forget that some hillmen units have javelins too. They can be quite deadly as flankers.

[Atraphoenix]

Let's not forget that some hillmen units have javelins too. They can be quite deadly as flankers.

by playing nomad factions in fact except saros they becomes settled; how can you use them as flankers? I just send them to pin phalanx while HAs rains death arrows from back...

On the other hand, my statement does not mean hillmen or other AP units are not suited for flanking.
I know, they are great flankers, but who will hold the line against phalanx?
I will try hoplites soon, I tested others phalanx routs them easily.

[Apázlinemjó]

by playing nomad factions in fact except saros they becomes settled; how can you use them as flankers? I just send them to pin phalanx while HAs rains death arrows from back...

On the other hand, my statement does not mean hillmen or other AP units are not suited for flanking.
I know, they are great flankers, but who will hold the line against phalanx?
I will try hoplites soon, I tested others phalanx routs them easily.

They come handy as flankers if you play Pontos, you have phalanxes to hold the line, and hillmen to flank the enemy. Of course you can get better units than them, however Pontos starts with a rather poor economy, so you have to use everything you can. :P

[mountaingoat]

though I have not test them hillmen/most axemen have numerical advantage (240) on falxmen (160)
but no idea whether falxmen compensate this with their AP points (axemen around 1.3 falx around 1.6)
but hillmen are wiped out by high lethality units.

1v1 hillmen vs bastarne ( whom are usually cheaper compared to most hillmen ) , the hillmen will be cut down even after throwing a few spears.

though those axemen are not too bad on the flanks if that is all you can field .

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

often I make first line with sword infantry (letality 0.13 or 0.22, but good armour) and axe or falxs infantry back(ap+ good letality, but poor armour).
I leave spearmen in the side to protect the middle from cavalry (0.17 of letal., good armour, but few effective against sword infantry).

look at Lusitani, they have many units with ap (falcata: letality 0.11), but carry the solifera, a weapon that have ap like pilum.... plus combat bonus in woods..... => Lusitani are the best:laugh4:

try to thrown pilum (or solifera) in back of enemy unit: this is very deadly way for gain victory.:smash:

some unit that seems poor for they att/def points, are very interested for their special ability and become the key for victory.

[Xurr]

units with AP allows them to go toe to toe with heavy units in a moshpit fight. Outside of that, their advantages are moot. Note, getting engaged into a moshpit is a challange in it's own right, it's not always easy to survive the missles and pikes while closing in....


It's not that hard to get into a pike formation and "mosh pit" it. Just anchor it with a shield wall or heavy armor unit, then hit it from behind with your ap unit. I do this all the time with extraordinarii and they shred elite pikes units.

[Atraphoenix]

I still think falxmen are best for phalanx hunting. no matter from front or flank/rear.
galatians are too expensive to hire so long as you do not recruit them them yourself.

[antisocialmunky]

Bewarez of Cretans.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Indeed, the force of me is strong in those units. Anyone who possesses AP is powerful.

[antisocialmunky]

BTW- Numidians, they have AP clubs, bewarez of theys too.

[HunGeneral]

I usually determine two groups for AP Infantry: Light and Heavy

I prefer using light AP equipped troops for flanking forces since the more amoured guys hold the line while the less armoured AP units (like Eastern Axemen, Drapanai, Agrianikoi Pelekephoroi and other "Light armour breakers") race behind the enemy infantry, throw there Javelins and charge from behind - There ideal for this task because there weapon gives them a chance against better defended soldiers (most of the armoured enemy won't even notice what cut them apart from behind:laugh4:), but there lack of own armour means they would have trouble fighting head on.

"Heavy armour breakers" (I think Komatai Epilektoi, Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi, Loricati Scutari fall under this category) are able to fight head on against armoured troops, although they themselfs are also somewhat vurneable to AP weapons. The ideal case would be to use them to ambush elite forces instead of wasting them to attack large numbered and unarmoured units.

I also think the ideal tactic against "light armour breakers" would be to rain arrows on them or attack them with large unarmoured units (the enemy will cause large casualities unless weakend by skirmishers, still it is more worth it then to send vauleable amoured soldiers against them).

Against "Heavy armour breakers": rain them with missile weapons (prefereably AP) and try to surround them (attack with light mass units first, later with heavier ones).

Cavalry charges are a good way to decrease the number of AP units:yes:: "light" ones may be more numerous, but the lack amour to defend them against repeated charges - they get cut down to size step by step. "heavy" ones are better defended, but there low numbers means that charges can take down a larger prozent of them. (in both cases it is advised to pull back the cavalry after every charge - in melee AP troopers can cause unnecessary loses to the horsemen, always try to mass charge them (3-5 cavalry units at once) so the enemy infantry might even rout after impact.:skull:)

[Aemilius Paulus]

(I think Komatai Epilektoi, Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi, Loricati Scutari fall under this category)
The Komatai Epilektoi have a Celtic Longsword, with .225 lethality, but not AP.

[Cyclops]

Its rare to get a line-worthy unit thats cheap enough to be mass produced and has AP. Is the pantopadoi phalanx such a unit? I have a vague memory the secondary is AP, and its poor lethality is offset by the pike.

Of course in the old builds you could hold a line with Irish or Vasci super heavies, and damn the expense:smash:. Didn't much matter what the odds were either. I once swept the Carthies out of Africa in a Lussotannan endgame with 4 of those bad boys backed up by what amounted to an army-sized cheersquad that just looked on and suppressed their nausea.

It is one of the nice "rock-paper-scissors" elements that you can swamp an expensive elite with 2 cheap units (one line holder and one AP or javelin flanker)...if you have the time and space to effect the manouever.

[A Very Super Market]

All, pantopadoi..... truly the kings of my battlefield. Machimoi have less armour, and Deuteroi lack AP axes. I wouldn't call them particularily cheap though. Still, they are very effective.

[Cute Wolf]

All, pantopadoi..... truly the kings of my battlefield. Machimoi have less armour, and Deuteroi lack AP axes. I wouldn't call them particularily cheap though. Still, they are very effective.

Seconded...

[Atraphoenix]

Seconded...

you can rout catas with them of course with axes and at ease (no holding position).

[antisocialmunky]

Not to mention that they can rout their enemies by the sheer mass of mans.

[HunGeneral]

Oh yeah Pantodapoi Phalangitai are some of the best close-combat phalangites out there. Theres many of them in one unit, they are somewhat armoured and getting hit by one of their AP axes is no pleasent experience.

Has anyone of you ever tried facing Cataphracts with Pantodapoi Ph.. using the Phalanx to "halt" the charge and then countercharge with there axes? I was thinking of trying this, but most of the time I could only use mass eastern axemen to kill Catas..


The Komatai Epilektoi have a Celtic Longsword, with .225 lethality, but not AP.

Whoops... corrected. Thanks Aemilius Paulus!:beam:

[AttilaDerHunn]

how can you find the unit stats ? :help:

[Cute Wolf]

EDU... means the file export_descr_unit.txt on your \EB\data\ folder

[Apázlinemjó]

how can you find the unit stats ? :help:

It's the EDU - Export_Descr_Unit.txt , where you can find the stats.

It's in the Rome Total War/EB/Data folder.

Edit: Damn I was slower... :P

[Atraphoenix]

Oh yeah Pantodapoi Phalangitai are some of the best close-combat phalangites out there. Theres many of them in one unit, they are somewhat armoured and getting hit by one of their AP axes is no pleasent experience.

Has anyone of you ever tried facing Cataphracts with Pantodapoi Ph.. using the Phalanx to "halt" the charge and then countercharge with there axes? I was thinking of trying this, but most of the time I could only use mass eastern axemen to kill Catas..



Whoops... corrected. Thanks Aemilius Paulus!:beam:

you did not read my previous message, did you?

yes you can rout AI catas with them , even I managed to rout grivpandar with them after first charge abandon phalanx and hold position and charge with axes.

[HunGeneral]

you did not read my previous message, did you?

yes you can rout AI catas with them , even I managed to rout grivpandar with them after first charge abandon phalanx and hold position and charge with axes.

I read your previous post but in that you didn't say you would wait for them in Phalanx formation and charge the Catas with axes after the impact. What you worte said using axes and not holding position. I though that meant tying down the Catatphracts somehow and then sending in the Pantodapoi Phlangites with there axes.... I quess is must have misunderstood the text.

[Atraphoenix]

I read your previous post but in that you didn't say you would wait for them in Phalanx formation and charge the Catas with axes after the impact. What you worte said using axes and not holding position. I though that meant tying down the Catatphracts somehow and then sending in the Pantodapoi Phlangites with there axes.... I quess is must have misunderstood the text.

no you did not I had forgotten to add there "after their initial charge abandon phalanx" :embarassed: