Senate Approves Apology To African-Americans For Slavery

[Hooahguy]

ok...... (http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090618-712839.html)

The U.S. Senate approved a fiercely worded resolution Thursday that attempts to formally apologize for the "fundamental injustice, cruelty, brutality, and inhumanity of slavery" of African-Americans.
what was the point of this? considering there is no one left who suffered under pre-civil war slavery, this sounds like needless time wasting.
dont get me wrong, slavery is horrible, but was this a good use of the Senate's time, apologizing for something that happened over 100 years ago?

[Beskar]

Australians had to do the same. It is for people with an axe to grind. It just formally says that they were wrong, so people can get over with it and assist in moving on.

[tibilicus]

Australians had to do the same. It is for people with an axe to grind. It just formally says that they were wrong, so people can get over with it and assist in moving on.

It's different though. The Australian case in comparison to Slavery happened relevantly recently + pretty much destroyed a native population.

[Rhyfelwyr]

No big deal, how long does it take to say sorry?

Better to just get it done and clear up any cobwebs.

[Xiahou]

You'd think that Civil War was apology enough. But whatever, it's a meaningless resolution. :shrug:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This is an evil thing, such a resolution apolagising for the suffering of the ancestors of blacks formally endorses the claim that today's whites are guilty for something their own ancestors may or may not have been involved in.

Such a resolution legitimises racial hatred.

[rory_20_uk]

I think it's time the Danes et al apologised for the Vikings, the Chinese apologised for the Black Death, and every apologises for everything that happened hundreds of years ago as that's bound to make the world a better place...

~:smoking:

[Megas Methuselah]

I think it's time the Danes et al apologised for the Vikings, the Chinese apologised for the Black Death, and every apologises for everything that happened hundreds of years ago as that's bound to make the world a better place...

~:smoking:

Although you do have a point, don't be so negative. Apologies such as this are symbolic, and, as Beskar says:


It just formally says that they were wrong, so people can get over with it and assist in moving on.


Check this (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/06/11/pm-statement.html) out, for example. Stephen Harper apologized for the residential school system in Canada. This is different, though, as there are still survivors of residential school system (a system which continued well into the 1970's).

[Lemur]

These sorts of resolutions cost us nothing. Yes, they're meaningless, but so long as they don't damage us, I don't see the problem.

[miotas]

Australians had to do the same. It is for people with an axe to grind. It just formally says that they were wrong, so people can get over with it and assist in moving on.

Hardly comparable to a policy of attempted genocide that ended less than 40 years ago.

But apologising for something that ended over 140 years ago is futile.

[Beskar]

There was a big thing (in Britain) though when the Germany demanded Britain to apologise for the actions of the RAF in the Second World War. Obviously many lives were lost, but domestically, it never goes down well.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

These sorts of resolutions cost us nothing. Yes, they're meaningless, but so long as they don't damage us, I don't see the problem.

You should not be made to apolagise for something that you are not responsible for in any way.

[CountArach]

I don't see a problem here :shrug:

[Hooahguy]

These sorts of resolutions cost us nothing. Yes, they're meaningless, but so long as they don't damage us, I don't see the problem.
not true. we have to pay senators, right?
bam, there we go. wasted time= wasted tax dollars.

[CountArach]

not true. we have to pay senators, right?
bam, there we go. wasted time= wasted tax dollars.
You would be paying them whether they were making this resolution or not. And while they were making this resolution they weren't pork-barelling.

Bam, there we go. Making resolutions = saving tax dollars.

[Hosakawa Tito]

There is no problem CA, except some people expect/demand/won't settle for less than cash. Hence, the reparations disclaimer which taints the whole purpose of an apology. However, with the shake down nature of our legal system apparently it was felt to be legally prudent to do so.

[Jolt]

Using Karl's expression:


"No hard feelings, right?"

[Rhyfelwyr]

Presumably the apology is meant to be behalf of the US government, rather than it being representative of every white guy saying sorry. If a black guy was the spokesman for Congress, the apology would have the same purpose and meaning.

There's nothing wrong with a government apologising for the previous crimes carried out through its institutions. There is a difference between that and every current Congressman apologising for what happened, because that would be stupid.

Of course, I may be completely misunderstanding this, I can't read the whole article because I'm not subscribed.

[Tratorix]

Well, good to know that whole slavery thing is over with. We cool, right?

[Major Robert Dump]

And on behalf of white Americans, particularly those with links to the Union and abolishonists, I would like to tell the African Americans:


YOU'RE WELCOME

[KukriKhan]

In '88 Reagan signed the Raparation Law for Japanese-American internees (from WWII): $20,000 to each surviving internee and a $1.25 billion education fund, this after a kind of truth-and-reconciliation' process conducted by The Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians (1981-6).

An apology is one step. We gotta do the t&r thing too, if Congress is serious about putting things right; and ultimately, money has to be discussed, to put the scourge of slavery and Jim Crow behind us (all of us) once and for all. "40 acres and a mule" were promised after the USCW, but never delivered. I daresay slave descendents would settle for less than 40 acres - maybe 2 years free ride through the institution of higher learning of their choice (for which they qualify). How much could that be, a couple billion? Less than we're giving to Iraq, or banks, or insurance companies, or auto makers.

Then, having gotten experience doing that, we can finally talk about Native Americans.

Then, maybe, we can quit talking about hyphenated-americans, and just be americans.

[Strike For The South]

In '88 Reagan signed the Raparation Law for Japanese-American internees (from WWII): $20,000 to each surviving internee and a $1.25 billion education fund, this after a kind of truth-and-reconciliation' process conducted by The Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians (1981-6).

An apology is one step. We gotta do the t&r thing too, if Congress is serious about putting things right; and ultimately, money has to be discussed, to put the scourge of slavery and Jim Crow behind us (all of us) once and for all. "40 acres and a mule" were promised after the USCW, but never delivered. I daresay slave descendents would settle for less than 40 acres - maybe 2 years free ride through the institution of higher learning of their choice (for which they qualify). How much could that be, a couple billion? Less than we're giving to Iraq, or banks, or insurance companies, or auto makers.

Then, having gotten experience doing that, we can finally talk about Native Americans.

Then, maybe, we can quit talking about hyphenated-americans, and just be americans.

You can't be serious.

[KukriKhan]

You can't be serious.

Dead serious.

Solve it once and for all, one-time shot, as should have been done a hundred years ago. Then the Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons, and national guilt, and lingering resentment... all of it has no leg to stand on. And we're a better people, facing the music squarely, honestly, and addressing & resolving the evil that was done by those who came before us. To me, it would be the final step out of "America, the feckless teenager" to "America, the Grownup", worthy of the soaring rhetoric we spout around the world, and to ourselves.

[Lord Winter]

Except that all those hurt by slavery are dead. I fail to see how paying someone blood money will make us a more mature nation. If we really want to move past it, lets devote ourselves to making sure that racism ceases to exists. There are some things that money can't solve.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Do I have to pay extra taxes because of this?

I don't?

Cool. Now let's move on. :yes:

[Marshal Murat]

Then, maybe, we can quit talking about hyphenated-americans, and just be americans.
I enjoy my hyphenated status as a Scot-Welsh-English-German-American.

[Lord Winter]

Also I want my apology for the discrimination the Irish received from the KKK et. al.

[Lemur]

Dave, how I've missed you. I treasure the moments we share in between your bans.

[Devastatin Dave]

Dave, how I've missed you. I treasure the moments we share in between your bans.

If this one doesn't get me banned, I'll burn Obama in effigy on your front lawn.:laugh4:
Well, Ill see you guys...never.:laugh4:

[Proletariat]

Did Thomas Sowell hijack DD's account? :O

[Ignoramus]

And for the record, the Australian apology was just plain stupid. True, in some cases the actions were wrong, but they flowed from a compassionate desire to benefit the Aborigines. That in no way justifies the actions, but it does put things in perspective. A unilateral apology, as was given, on behalf of all Australians was wrong.

How about the British government apologies on behalf of the Normans who brutally conquered the country in 1066? I don't see any "Saxons" jumping up and down demanding an apology. Or the Turks for storming Constantinople? The time for apologising is when the thing happens, not a century later. You can express regret that it happened, but to apologise implies that the current generation was guilty of it, which is not true. Or else you are doing the equally wrong thing of behalf of someone who is dead, and may not of all wanted to apologise.

[Crazed Rabbit]

These sorts of resolutions cost us nothing. Yes, they're meaningless, but so long as they don't damage us, I don't see the problem.

The Civil War killed more Americans than any other war - maybe more than all the rest we've been in all together. I don't have a problem with being sorry for the scourge of slavery. But the US has gone through a God-****** lot to end slavery, and that was one and a half centuries ago.

But you know this won't stop those agitating for reparations.

And even Kukri's plan wouldn't. People like Jackson and Sharpton will never stop.

Let them whine and cry. I am dead set against reparations of any kind for a simple reason;

No one alive has ever owned a slave, and no one alive has ever been a slave or been the child of a slave.

Neither I nor my ancestors owned slaves - so why should I pay money, since reparations would come from taxes, to a person because of their skin color?

CR

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

The Civil War wasn't really fought to end slavery...

[CountArach]

And for the record, the Australian apology was just plain stupid. True, in some cases the actions were wrong, but they flowed from a compassionate desire to benefit the Aborigines. That in no way justifies the actions, but it does put things in perspective. A unilateral apology, as was given, on behalf of all Australians was wrong.
Oh come off it - there was no way that we were motivated by an altruistic desire to help the Aboriginals. Even if we were you can use the exact same reasoning to excuse the entirety of Colonialism - except in this case we had continued up until the 1970s. What we did was attempt to wipe out their culture and supplant it with our own. If a child was half-white they would be taken from their black mother and raised in a 'proper' Christian manner, not in the way their mother wanted them to be. The people that were taken are alive to day - surely they deserve an apology if for no other reason than never getting to see their families again.

The office of the Prime Minister perpetrated these actions and as such it was up to the office of the Prime Minister to apologise. The Australian people wanted it (And there is polling data to prove it). Further, it was recommended by the Bringing Them Home (http://www.hreoc.gov.au/social_justice/bth_report/report/appendices_9.html) report back in 1997 as a way of ensuring that we could begin to redress the staggering inequalities between Aboriginal and White Australia.

[Megas Methuselah]

And for the record, the Australian apology was just plain stupid. True, in some cases the actions were wrong, but they flowed from a compassionate desire to benefit the Aborigines. That in no way justifies the actions, but it does put things in perspective. A unilateral apology, as was given, on behalf of all Australians was wrong.


:inquisitive:

[Ignoramus]

I just really object to it being on behalf of all Australians. I wasn't born when it happened, so why should I be made to feel guilty for what happened two generations ago?

[Tristuskhan]

True, in some cases the actions were wrong, but they flowed from a compassionate desire to benefit the Aborigines.

Sterilizing women, hijacking children, depriving people from basic citizen rights, nothing so bad since it was done with a compassionate desire to benefit them?
:inquisitive:indeed...

Edit: I saw your reply too late so...
Don't you feel proud somehow of the Australian soldier's bravery during the two world wars? Do you support your national rugby team? But you're not part of either. If so, you feel part of a nation, no? Then you have to take the goods and bads of it, in my opinion.

[Fragony]

Oh come off it - there was no way that we were motivated by an altruistic desire to help the Aboriginals. Even if we were you can use the exact same reasoning to excuse the entirety of Colonialism - except in this case we had continued up until the 1970s. What we did was attempt to wipe out their culture and supplant it with our own. If a child was half-white they would be taken from their black mother and raised in a 'proper' Christian manner, not in the way their mother wanted them to be. The people that were taken are alive to day - surely they deserve an apology if for no other reason than never getting to see their families again.


Never heard of that before. That deserves one big apology indeed, wrapped in whatever it is they like.

[CountArach]

I just really object to it being on behalf of all Australians. I wasn't born when it happened, so why should I be made to feel guilty for what happened two generations ago?
You don't personally have to feel guilty for what happened, but surely we have to recognise that a parliament (Elected by the people of the time) should apologise for the actions that the institution has taken in the past? However, don't we also have a responsbility as members of a voting public to publicly apologise for the actions of a previous voting public who used that same institution? I guess it is just a part of a broader debate about the nature and existence of institutional guilt.

[Fragony]

You don't personally have to feel guilty for what happened, but surely we have to recognise that a parliament (Elected by the people of the time) should apologise for the actions that the institution has taken in the past? However, don't we also have a responsbility as members of a voting public to publicly apologise for the actions of a previous voting public who used that same institution? I guess it is just a part of a broader debate about the nature and existence of institutional guilt.

Depends on how long it goes back, you know what they say, history is a foreign country they do things differently. If it still affects people responsibility must be taken, if that program lasted untill the seventies, I kinda wonder what's holding Australia back.

[miotas]

Depends on how long it goes back, you know what they say, history is a foreign country they do things differently. If it still affects people responsibility must be taken, if that program lasted untill the seventies, I kinda wonder what's holding Australia back.

Well how does one make up for attempted genocide? Money? Many would just drink it. Free university education? Many don't want it. I personally think that anything that is implemented to help those disadvantaged people who were victims of the stolen generation should also be applied to any disadvantaged people. Any action aimed simply at making up for the stolen generation will seem shallow and inadequate. We should accept that it was terrible and just agree that we need to help all people who are in a bad way, not just the stolen generation.

[Fragony]

Well how does one make up for attempted genocide? Money? Many would just drink it. Free university education? Many don't want it. I personally think that anything that is implemented to help those disadvantaged people who were victims of the stolen generation should also be applied to any disadvantaged people. Any action aimed simply at making up for the stolen generation will seem shallow and inadequate. We should accept that it was terrible and just agree that we need to help all people who are in a bad way, not just the stolen generation.

With taking responsebility I mean apologizing, no idea what to do about all that I never heard of this before, currently googling.

[KukriKhan]

... If we really want to move past it, lets devote ourselves to making sure that racism ceases to exists...

A worthy goal, indeed. What then would be steps 1, 2 and 3 of your plan to achieve it?

And: will the elimination of racism insure the non-recurrance of slavery?

[CountArach]

Depends on how long it goes back, you know what they say, history is a foreign country they do things differently. If it still affects people responsibility must be taken, if that program lasted untill the seventies, I kinda wonder what's holding Australia back.
There is a lot of deed-rooted racism in this country and Australians on the whole are a pretty conservative group.

With taking responsebility I mean apologizing, no idea what to do about all that I never heard of this before, currently googling.
I posted the link above to a report called Bringing Them Home (http://www.hreoc.gov.au/social_justice/bth_report/report/appendices_9.html), which made quite a lot of recommendations on what should be done, but it is also quite detailed and long... I'm trying to find a shorter list of things at the moment.

And: will the elimination of racism insure the non-recurrance of slavery?
Surely it must - Slavery itself is built on the idea that one group of people have a right to subjugate another group of people. This has always been built either on race or, far less commonly, nationality.

[KukriKhan]

And: will the elimination of racism insure the non-recurrance of slavery?

Surely it must - Slavery itself is built on the idea that one group of people have a right to subjugate another group of people. This has always been built either on race or, far less commonly, nationality.

Hmmm... OK. We also must remember that for a long time slavery was a consequence of having lost a war/battle. Or being the "wrong" religion.

My point being: racism = teh bad - no argument. It's stupid, ignorant, and in the long run, counter-productive to both the haters and the hated. But, it being a mind-set, it only can go away (IMO) with multiple generations of intermarriage, where ultimately "race" is no longer recognizable as a distinguishing characteristic. Eliminating it is a worthy, but unacceptably long-range, goal. Unless someone smarter than I has a better, quicker plan.

Meanwhile, slavery has occured, and still occurs. Stopping enslavement in one's own country = a good thing. Apologizing for it = a good thing. Compensating former slaves for uncompensated labor, involuntary kidnapping, and life-long denial of citizens' rights is the final step. That it hasn't been done for 150 years is no fault of either former slaves, nor their descendants, but of the country that profitted from that uncompensated labor, involuntary kidnapping, and life-long denial of citizens' rights, and their authorized representatives (politicians), and their descendants.

[CountArach]

I'm not going to disagree with you there.

[Idaho]

It's telling that so many of you see this as white people apologising to black people for slavery. Suggests to me that the divisions and endemic prejudice remain in society.

Regardless of the merits of such apologies. This was the US government making a formal apology, and hence a formal statement, about the immorality of slavery. That you all characterise the US government as fundamentally representing the interests of white people speaks volumes.

[KukriKhan]

That you all characterise the US government as fundamentally representing the interests of white people speaks volumes.

Quite a broad brush you're using there Mister Painter.

[Fragony]

lol :balloon2:

[Idaho]

Quite a broad brush you're using there Mister Painter.

You can take my brush when you can prize it from my cold dead hands :book::skull:

[KukriKhan]

You can take my brush when you can prize it from my cold dead hands :book::skull:

Haha! Good one, old Buddy. But I think we needn't wait quite so long. I'm certain you can be persuaded to deploy only the number of brush-bristles necessary to make your point (which I estimate to be something like: "You lot are still systemically racist, so any efforts to 'fix' your history of slavery are hopelessly doomed").

I disagree with that (and apologize for stuffing my words in your mouth - especially if I've got it wrong). I believe truth-and-reconciliation, plus reparation, though seen by many as burdensome and unwarranted, is a do-able, practical, concrete action we can take to mitigate the still-lingering, and unnecessary problem of our underclass of under-educated, under-motivated descendants of slaves.

That those slaves and their children originally hail from Africa is largely irrelevant.

[Devastatin Dave]

My apology part 2 since my first one was deleted because I actually stated facts about the protected race...
"I'm sorry to all the African Americans that have actually made something of their lives while all the other perpetual "I'm a victim of slavery" blacks called you Uncle Tom and sell-outs because they see success and being a productive citizen as bowing to whitey."
:2thumbsup:

Here's the greatest irony of Obama. Just about every black person in this country voted for him. Obama did not come from slaves. In fact, his ancestors were the ones that sold most of these idiots 'ancestors into slavery. I'd say Obama ought to take time out of his schedule apologising to the world about every little infraction that the US might have done and say he's sorry to all the ignorant masses that voted for him. It does make me laugh when I see all these blacks with his smiling fascist face plastered all over their t-shirts.

Now if this gets deleted and I get 2 points again thats just BS. Don't whip me Massa:whip::whip::whip:

[Devastatin Dave]

I just really object to it being on behalf of all Australians. I wasn't born when it happened, so why should I be made to feel guilty for what happened two generations ago?

Don't worry about it. "White guilt" is a form of reverse racism that many have some strange masocistic desire to wallow in. Its sort of like black people straightening their hair our lightening their skin. White guilters say grandeous things about people of color, or go on marches, or say things like "some of my best friends are black", but clinch thier purses, wallets, hold on to their significant others harder when they see a black person coming their way. Its actually kind of adorable.

[Furunculus]

My rule of thumb goes thus:

If there are people still alive who suffered under tyranny then an apology and reparations should be seriously considered.

If there are people alive today who knew people from their 'group' who suffered under tyranny then an apology should be considered.

If there are people alive today who neither suffered, nor had a direct connection with those who did suffer under tyranny, then they should be told to shut up and get on with their life.

there are two points that stand outside my three point rule as listed above:

1. Apologising for things that don't require it does not help to rid the world of injustices like racism, it just encourages a victim mentality from those predisposed to whinge.

2. On the other hand it's a nice way for a gov't to say; "hey guys, we may have been jerks a while back, so just to let you know we still believe we did wrong." This may sound inconsequential, but people in china watching japan re-write school textbooks probably disagree, as might Poles who recently heard russian generals justify the german invasion of poland on the grounds that germany needed a land coridoor to danzig. kalinagrad anyone..................

that aside, i personally would strictly adhere to the three point rule above.

[Lord Winter]

A worthy goal, indeed. What then would be steps 1, 2 and 3 of your plan to achieve it?

And: will the elimination of racism insure the non-recurrance of slavery?

The point is Racism is not something that's going to be ended over night, its a long struggle and we would only fool ourselves if we believed that we could fix it by throwing money at it. Instead the only way to move past it is education, understanding and well thought out anti discrimination legislation.

[lars573]

Here's the greatest irony of Obama. Just about every black person in this country voted for him. Obama did not come from slaves. In fact, his ancestors were the ones that sold most of these idiots 'ancestors into slavery. I'd say Obama ought to take time out of his schedule apologising to the world about every little infraction that the US might have done and say he's sorry to all the ignorant masses that voted for him. It does make me laugh when I see all these blacks with his smiling fascist face plastered all over their t-shirts.
You know your not allowed to talk about that in public. :clown:

[Whacker]

You know your not allowed to talk about that in public. :clown:

Actually, he is. Thankfully this is America.

Also it pains me that Dave's earlier post was deleted. That was a true gem and brought a tear or two to my eye, probably due to the fact that I was laughing hysterically.

[KukriKhan]

The point is Racism is not something that's going to be ended over night, its a long struggle and we would only fool ourselves if we believed that we could fix it by throwing money at it. Instead the only way to move past it is education, understanding and well thought out anti discrimination legislation.

I agree. With all of that. It is also why I wanna separate out racism from slavery-resolution. Racism, whether overt or covert, is a long-haul mindset change to address, for all camps. Whereas, the slavery industry in the US can be resolved (albeit: inadequately, given the suffering inflicted) in a more concrete fashion than the measures we have deployed so far. We keep getting wrapped around the axle on any slavery-resolution discussion because race, another open sore on our body-politic, gets injected into the mix, making it an unsolveable dilemma.

I propose we confront the political mistake that was slavery, and offer restituion to the sons of our fellow citizens, to put it behind us (all). Then embark on the tougher, more nuanced problem of racism.

[Louis VI the Fat]

If everybody in the United States were Black, I would still think it right for congress to apologize for slavery.


Edit: Darn. I seem to have missed Dave's first post. I need to get up sooner so I can beat the moderators. :wink:

[Devastatin Dave]

If everybody in the United States were Black, I would still think it right for congress to apologize for slavery.


Edit: Darn. I seem to have missed Dave's first post. I need to get up sooner so I can beat the moderators. :wink:

If you would like I can forward the infraction I got, it has the post in it.

[Papewaio]

Don't worry about it. "White guilt" is a form of reverse racism that many have some strange masocistic desire to wallow in. Its sort of like black people straightening their hair our lightening their skin. White guilters say grandeous things about people of color, or go on marches, or say things like "some of my best friends are black", but clinch thier purses, wallets, hold on to their significant others harder when they see a black person coming their way. Its actually kind of adorable.

I suggest you read up about the stolen generation. One of my younger teachers was of the stolen generation. They are still alive and working in society. Not all dead or ancient elders.

Australian Aboriginals were not in the human census until 1967. Until then they were under wildlife.

So we are not talking about something that is 150 years ago. It isn't even 50 years ago.

[Husar]

Its actually kind of adorable.

You're kind of adorable as well. ~:pat:

Personally, I don't really mind what you congress does, doesn't mean you have to apologize yourself, it's only people who actually think politicians would represent them who are annoyed by this. ~;)

Most politicians just represent the people who voted for them at best, in the US that's not even 60% of the voters and in other countries it's even less, like when you get coalitions of two parties etc.

Quite frankly I wouldn't scratch my head too long about whether or not it was necessary, I personally don't feel any need to apologize for what someone else did or happened long before my time. :shrug:

[Xiahou]

The point is Racism is not something that's going to be ended over night, its a long struggle and we would only fool ourselves if we believed that we could fix it by throwing money at it. Instead the only way to move past it is education, understanding and well thought out anti discrimination legislation.

The way past racism is for us to stop treating our different races differently. We're all Americans, we all should be equal under the law. Telling people that they're a class of victims, a class of oppressors, whatever only entrenches the idea that we're different.

[Megas Methuselah]

Don't worry about it. "White guilt" is a form of reverse racism that many have some strange masocistic desire to wallow in. Its sort of like black people straightening their hair our lightening their skin. White guilters say grandeous things about people of color, or go on marches, or say things like "some of my best friends are black", but clinch thier purses, wallets, hold on to their significant others harder when they see a black person coming their way. Its actually kind of adorable.

Haha, nice. Unfortunately, some of these events aren't so far away in history. I mean, look at Australia's Stolen Generation and Canada's Residential School System. These continued well into the 1970's.

EDIT: Papewaio beat me...

[LittleGrizzly]

So was this apology made spefically on behalf of white people ?

Was this apology made made specifically on behalf on slave owning descendents ?

Was this apology made on behalf the US goverment ?

Unless its one or two i don't really see a need to whinge, the current US goverment is apologising for a former goverments action, considering the people you are apologising too (or at least the descendents of the people your apologising too) are actually a part of making the apology in the same way that you (whitey in the corner) are ?

The way i see it this apology is from the goverment, there seems to be nothing about evil whitey apologising to another race...

So if your family never owned slaves (or ones in america) this apology is as much from you as it is a modern day black man whichever way you choose to look at it..

I think the argument people would use about paying reperations from taxes is that even if your family didn't directly benefit at the time of slavery, your country was built on its back...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I think the argument people would use about paying reperations from taxes is that even if your family didn't directly benefit at the time of slavery, your country was built on its back...

What if you are a Chinese-American working on the railroads or an Italian-American working in low paying jobs? You could argue just as well that part of the country was built on your back. So that argument is invalid since the entire nation was not built on slavery.

[LittleGrizzly]

What if you are a Chinese-American working on the railroads or an Italian-American working in low paying jobs?

Then you wouldn't be paying much in reperations considering you grew up in the richest country in the world and your low pay is far higher than most other countrys, thanks in a big way to blacks...

When i say that the country was built on slavery i don't mean that slaves soley built up America without anyone else doing anything... what i mean is in America's early years it was mostly slavery that built up the country...

Of course it was built up on the back on every hard working citizen, but mostly by the non paid hard working citizens

[Devastatin Dave]

[B]
Of course it was built up on the back on every hard working citizen, but mostly by the non paid hard working citizens

Care to provide some evidence of this? I think this is the most ignorant things I've ever read in the backroom. Slavery might have done a lot for sugar cane and cotton, but it did not benifit where most of the nations wealth was produced; industry and trade. The way people continuously rewrite history you would think that Martin Luther King wrote the Declaration of Independence and Malcom X brokered the Luisianna Purchase...

[Marshal Murat]

When i say that the country was built on slavery i don't mean that slaves soley built up America without anyone else doing anything... what i mean is in America's early years it was mostly slavery that built up the country...

The first settlements in America had slaves, it's true, but a majority of those slaves were "indentured servants" who eventually won their freedom. I can only assume that you mean the "triangle trade" of slaves, which gave many colonists a profit, but we didn't grow up using slavery. Even before the American Revolution slaves really only built up the South rather than America as a whole.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

When i say that the country was built on slavery i don't mean that slaves soley built up America without anyone else doing anything... what i mean is in America's early years it was mostly slavery that built up the country...

Of course it was built up on the back on every hard working citizen, but mostly by the non paid hard working citizens

A good response:


Care to provide some evidence of this? I think this is the most ignorant things I've ever read in the backroom. Slavery might have done a lot for sugar cane and cotton, but it did not benifit where most of the nations wealth was produced; industry and trade. The way people continuously rewrite history you would think that Martin Luther King wrote the Declaration of Independence and Malcom X brokered the Luisianna Purchase...

[Lord Winter]

The way past racism is for us to stop treating our different races differently. We're all Americans, we all should be equal under the law. Telling people that they're a class of victims, a class of oppressors, whatever only entrenches the idea that we're different.

Indeed, that is the end goal that we should be working towards, but to reach that point there is a need for the anti discrimination legislation, education et al. As long as it is applied in smart manner and not in a way were we begin to see racism behind every action I don't see the problem.

[Xiahou]

Indeed, that is the end goal that we should be working towards, but to reach that point there is a need for the anti discrimination legislation, education et al. As long as it is applied in smart manner and not in a way were we begin to see racism behind every action I don't see the problem.
I see that as hurting, not helping. If people think poor blacks need welfare, or education then work to give the poor welfare or education- race should play no part. Saying you need a hand up to succeed just because you're black is very damaging and is discriminatory. Discrimination won't be solved by more discrimination.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I think the argument people would use about paying reperations from taxes is that even if your family didn't directly benefit at the time of slavery, your country was built on its back...

No, it wasn't. History fail.


When i say that the country was built on slavery i don't mean that slaves soley built up America without anyone else doing anything... what i mean is in America's early years it was mostly slavery that built up the country...

And again.

Bah.

CR

[miotas]

Something ironic about aboriginal equality in Australia is that before they gained equality farmers were putting off buying expensive farm machinery since they could get a bunch of Aboriginal people to do it for very little pay, but afterwards they would have to pay them fair wages which would be quite expensive, so they forked out the cash for the farm machinery and left a whole bunch of aboriginal people unemployed.

Not really sure what that adds to the arguement but I just thought I would share. :shrug:

[CountArach]

Something ironic about aboriginal equality in Australia is that before they gained equality farmers were putting off buying expensive farm machinery since they could get a bunch of Aboriginal people to do it for very little pay, but afterwards they would have to pay them fair wages which would be quite expensive, so they forked out the cash for the farm machinery and left a whole bunch of aboriginal people unemployed.

Not really sure what that adds to the arguement but I just thought I would share. :shrug:
I seem to recall reading somewhere that they were rarely paid even the dity-low wages that they worked for.

[Tribesman]

what i mean is in America's early years it was mostly slavery that built up the country...
As Dave said it was mostly trade and industry.
Though domestic industry didn't really pick up until the embargos and war .
So it was trade that built the country in the early years, big trade with things like cotton, grain, sugar, tobacco and coffee. Things which were products of a very labour intensive agriculture program worked by people who were slaves.
Damn that trade and industry arguement of Daves just don't hold up:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Now of course Britain was also built on trade and industry in that time period .
Trade, well that included slavery didn't it and the products of slavery.
But hey what about industry? Say the textiles industry for example , whole towns and cities were built on textiles ....things like errrr.....cotton , which in that time period were a product of slavery.

So perhaps Britain should apologise for slavery.:yes:
Oh , they already did that.
Strange that there wasn't a pile of British posters trying to make an issue out of that apology.
Must be an American thing eh:2thumbsup:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think the difference is the lack of reparation and "affirmative action (racism)". Though, admittedly, the latter has come in under Labour and caused nothing but division and anger.

[Tribesman]

I think the difference is the lack of reparation
There is no reparation in the apology from the Senate, neither was there any in the earlier aplology from the House , none of the US States that have done their apologies put in any reparations.
Britain didn't do any reparations in its apology for slavery neither did France or the Vatican
So where is this difference ?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Random thought to throw into the mix, but weren't there also large numbers of white slaves in the US? Especially from Scotland and Ireland even prior to the Highland Clearances kicking off, when the chieftains/landlords were getting into debt, they sold off large numbers of their kinsfolk as slaves, IIRC Alexander MacDonald of Sleat was notorious for this. Often it was children being herded of like in the Long nan daoine (sp?), which was I think going pretty late. And I think this went on after US independence, although on a smaller scale, under the guise of them being 'indentured servants'.

I'm not against reparations, but how would this factor into the equation?

[InsaneApache]

I don't think (we) Brits got our knickers in a twist about apologizing for slavery as we abolished it back in the early 19th centuary. Another factor might be the relative absence of slaves in the UK. In fact, although I might be wrong, wasn't slavery outlawed in England about the time of King John.

So given that we had hardly any slaves, black or otherwise, in the UK but the USA has a huge legacy of former slaves living there, one might begin to understand how feelings would run high.

Had many an interesting chat with 'mom' on this subject. As you might expect she has, what you might call, robust views on the subject. :yes:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I don't think (we) Brits got our knickers in a twist about apologizing for slavery as we abolished it back in the early 19th centuary. Another factor might be the relative absence of slaves in the UK. In fact, although I might be wrong, wasn't slavery outlawed in England about the time of King John.

So given that we had hardly any slaves, black or otherwise, in the UK but the USA has a huge legacy of former slaves living there, one might begin to understand how feelings would run high.

Had many an interesting chat with 'mom' on this subject. As you might expect she has, what you might call, robust views on the subject. :yes:

Slavery was only ever legal in the Colonies (including what becaem the US), it was not legal in Britain. Therefore Slaves were never actually traded in Britain. There were even a couple of cases where black merchants successfully sued slavers for taking black men in England.

[Furunculus]

I don't think (we) Brits got our knickers in a twist about apologizing for slavery as we abolished it back in the early 19th centuary. Another factor might be the relative absence of slaves in the UK. In fact, although I might be wrong, wasn't slavery outlawed in England about the time of King John.

So given that we had hardly any slaves, black or otherwise, in the UK but the USA has a huge legacy of former slaves living there, one might begin to understand how feelings would run high.

Had many an interesting chat with 'mom' on this subject. As you might expect she has, what you might call, robust views on the subject. :yes:

and the fact that we spent over 50 years using the Royal Navy on an anti-slavery blockade, something that we started doing whilst fighting wars against france and america.

a lot of blood and sweat was expended in doing so:
http://www.royalnavalmuseum.org/visit_see_victory_cfexhibition_infosheet.htm

[Fragony]

Indeed if anything you owe us big time

[Fragony]

Indeed if anything you owe us big time