Someone lost his marbles

[Sarmatian]

Today, the new Acropolis Museum was opened (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jV-NVZV8UFR6OU5x4iVmD9lNZVogD98UJ0NO4) with a lavish party, attended by many respected guests from Greece and abroad. The new state-of-the-art museum covers 15,000 sq m area and has cost 130 million euros.

Of course, this opens up again one very old issue - what of the Elgin Marbles that are still kept in the British Museum? British Museum has so far refused to return them to Athens citing various, often dubious, reasons. One of the reasons the most commonly cited was that there was no proper conditions to keep them in the old Acropolis Museum. Now that reason has lost all validity as the conditions in the new Acropolis Museum are just as good, or even better, than in the British Museum.

Will and should UK/British Museum return Elgin Marbles to Greece? Fire away...

For those unfamiliar with the situation, back in the 19th century, Thomas Bruce, 7th Earl of Elgin, took almost half of the sculptures from the Parthenon in Athens and brought them to London. He did this supposedly legally, with the consent of the Ottoman authorities, but the legal basis for it is of highly questionable nature. In Britain back then, the public was divided on the issue. Some supported it but other strongly opposed it. Lord Byron called Elgin "a vandal" for his work and wrote a nice poem about it....

Dull is the eye that will not weep to see
Thy walls defaced, thy mouldering shrines removed
By British hands, which it had best behoved
To guard those relics ne'er to be restored.
Curst be the hour when from their isle they roved,
And once again thy hapless bosom gored,
And snatch'd thy shrinking gods to northern climes abhorred!

[Crazed Rabbit]

I'm in favor of returning stolen property.

CR

[rory_20_uk]

So, something that was built by a civilisation that had long collapsed was allowed to be taken by the new rulers.

The newer rulers are against this and hence it should be given back...

They should stay - although I can't get that roused about the issue one way or the other. I'd be just as happy with some resin models as since I am not an archaeologist I'm only interesting in the way the pretty carvings look.

~:smoking:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

There is no reason the British shouldn't keep them. If we emptied our museums and returned everything in them to the original owners, most of them would be fairly sparse or extremely narrow. Besides, it happened hundreds of years ago.

[Marshal Murat]

If the museum returned all the Greek statues, then they'd have to return all the Egyptian statues and artifacts. While it's nice that the Greeks want their artifacts from ancient history back, the Greeks need to get over it and move on and make some new history or something.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I don't think there's really a legal question here, the only question is moralistic.

Fact is, at the time Greece was not self-ruling and the statues taken were preserved from the subsequent ravages of several wars.

On the other hand, they were taken by a Victorian adventurer, basically so he looked impressive.

I'm a bit torn on this one.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I am very torn on this too. Slightly tilted towards no return.

I think that the Germans must restitute the art it pillaged sixty years ago. France should not return the art she rescued from uncivilized nations. Uh..I mean...ah bugger.

Can the UK return the Marbles on the condition Greece returns its EU membership?



I'm in favor of returning stolen propertyWhich begs for the question: will you return the US to the native Americans?

[Marshal Murat]

Double Post....

[Marshal Murat]

There's a difference between Goering ripping paintings out of the Vatican and Louvre and Elgin preventing priceless pieces of art from being destroyed.

I mean the freaking Acropolis blew up when the Venetians hit a Turkish powder-dump housed therein!

While it's no doubt patriotic to say "we want our sculptures back", they've moved from simply a Greek treasure to a treasure of the human race.


I'm in favor of returning stolen property
It would explain his Pro-Israeli stance...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I am very torn on this too. Slightly tilted towards no return.

I think that the Germans must restitute the art it pillaged sixty years ago. France should not return the art she rescued from uncivilized nations. Uh..I mean...ah bugger.

We shouldn't return the art we took from you in that war or any other, and you shouldn't return what you took from us (our museums and public places, that is, the property of private citizens should be returned where possible). What was taken by Germany during that war and any other is German property, what was taken by France should be considered French property. We can buy the art or request it to be exhibited in our museums if we really want it back.

[Louis VI the Fat]

What is interesting, is that Greece build an entire Museum of National Outrage.

There are big, glaringly empty spaces custom build for the Elgin Marbles. Huge empty windows, the Acropolis visible though them. Greece knowing full well that the Marbles aren't going to be returned any time soon. (Certainly not before Greece has returned its own share of looted art).
The sole point of the Athens Acropolis Museum is not to show Greek history, but to outrage the visitor. The visitor sees not what is, but what should've been.

It is an exersize in Balkan nationalism: victimization, perennial outrage, past wrongdoings. The misery of the present presented as result of a history that was stolen.



We can buy the art or request it to be exhibited in our museums if we really want it back.And what if I burglar your house tonight and steal the art on your wall?
Do you go to the police or do you buy your belongings back?

[Sarmatian]

If we emptied our museums and returned everything in them to the original owners, most of them would be fairly sparse or extremely narrow.

So? Is it Greek, Egyptian, Chinese, Indian etc... problem that you have nothing to fill your museums with?


I don't think there's really a legal question here, the only question is moralistic.

Fact is, at the time Greece was not self-ruling and the statues taken were preserved from the subsequent ravages of several wars.

On the other hand, they were taken by a Victorian adventurer, basically so he looked impressive.

I'm a bit torn on this one.

There is a legal question, too. First of all, the original of the document which supposedly gave Elgin the right to do it doesn't exist. Only Italian translation of it exists. Also, the document was supposed to be permission of excavation at Acropolis, not to saw off pieces of Parthenon.

The claim that they were preserved is also questionable. Firstly, other statues that still stand and are in better shape than those in England. Secondly, there was inept handling of the statues, they were literally sawn off and some stuff was further cut to pieces so that it could transported by a ship.
Also, during war of Greek independence, Turks barricaded themselves in Acropolis and wanted to melt the lead in the columns since they were out of bullets. Greeks offered them their bullets if they would leave the Parthenon undamaged. I think that really shows how important it is to Greeks.

Does modern Greece have the right to artifacts of Ancient Greece is an interesting question definitely, but in my opinion that is not the most important issue here. Acropolis is in Athens, Parthenon (what's left of it) is there. If all statues are there, properly preserved and displayed in a state-of-art-museum, one would be able to appreciate it all better. Imagine if someone would dismantle the great pyramids of Egypt and send pieces to hundreds of various museums across the world. You go to a museum and see a piece of rock and it is written below "piece of rock from a pyramid". How lame would that be? Of course, columns and statues in British Museum are different in a way that they are beautiful in themselves, but I think all of us would be able to enjoy and appreciate them better if they are put back with the others and in the proper setting...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

And what if I burglar your house tonight and steal the art on your wall?
Do you go to the police or do you buy your belongings back?

I did just make the distinction between "public" and "private" property in that post. ~;)

I admit I am not as "off the fence" as my post made me sound, but in most cases I believe artifacts should stay where they are.


So? Is it Greek, Egyptian, Chinese, Indian etc... problem that you have nothing to fill your museums with?

What about German artifacts in foreign museums? Why should I want them returned simply because they originated here a few thousand years ago and were taken away a few hundred?

[Moros]

will you return the US to the native Americans?
I'm pro!

[Sarmatian]

What is interesting, is that Greece build an entire Museum of National Outrage.

There are big, glaringly empty spaces custom build for the Elgin Marbles. Huge empty windows, the Acropolis visible though them. Greece knowing full well that the Marbles aren't going to be returned any time soon. (Certainly not before Greece has returned its own share of looted art).
The sole point of the Athens Acropolis Museum is not to show Greek history, but to outrage the visitor. The visitor sees not what is, but what should've been.

It is an exersize in Balkan nationalism: victimization, perennial outrage, past wrongdoings. The misery of the present presented as result of a history that was stolen.


You really missed the mark. Actually, you didn't just miss the mark, you missed the venue, city and continent.

Greece wanted those statues returned long before idea about building a new museum existed. They've built it to properly preserve and display all Parthenon statues. Of course, they've built a wing to house Elgin Marbles if they are ever returned. It would be rather foolish not to have space for them when they've wanted them back for so long. It would be like saying ok, we don't really want them, you can keep them...

[TB666]

As far as I can tell, Greece has no real legal leg to stand on here.
It may be stolen, it may not be stolen.
Mean Sweden has various items stolen from various countries during the empire days and we aren't gonna give them back.
Same as for other countries that has swedish artifacts, we aren't demanding that they return them.

In this case, only thing they can do is hope for the goodwill of British Museum.
If not then maybe Greece can borrow the items for a period which usually works fine.

[Sarmatian]

What about German artifacts in foreign museums? Why should I want them returned simply because they originated here a few thousand years ago and were taken away a few hundred?

It's not just a matter of an artifact here and artifact there. Those statues are a part of a bigger whole. It's like cutting out parts of Taj Mahal and putting it somewhere else.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So? Is it Greek, Egyptian, Chinese, Indian etc... problem that you have nothing to fill your museums with?

Is it a British problem that [insert nationality] wasn't able to defend inteslf against aggressors and was conquered.




There is a legal question, too. First of all, the original of the document which supposedly gave Elgin the right to do it doesn't exist. Only Italian translation of it exists. Also, the document was supposed to be permission of excavation at Acropolis, not to saw off pieces of Parthenon.

None of this seems to have bothered the Ottomans. The fuss really seems to be about the fact that the Greeks lost control of their own heritage to another power, and are still rendered impotant by it.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

It's not just a matter of an artifact here and artifact there. Those statues are a part of a bigger whole.

So are plenty of these artifacts.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I did just make the distinction between "public" and "private" property in that post. ~;)I have not felt this stupid since my teacher asked me what the capital of Russia was and I answered with '12'. :shame:


I admit I am not as "off the fence" as my post made me sound, but in most cases I believe artifacts should stay where they are.

What about German artifacts in foreign museums? Why should I want them returned simply because they originated here a few thousand years ago and were taken away a few hundred?I never think you are off the fence. I simply question everything anybody posts for the sake of discussion and furthering insight.


As for restitution - there is only so much one can or should do to repair the past. 'Returning America to the native Americans' isn't as unrelated to the subject as it might appear. If one doesn't even return the very land people live on, then why should infinitely minor spoils of war like a few statues be returned? Repair the small injustice, leave the big one?

If I had to choose between Britain returning Canada or returning two crappy paintings, the choice is obvious.

Actually...now that I think about it...a few acres of snow or some world class art...I say keep Canada.

[Sarmatian]

So are plenty of these artifacts.

Name one that comes even remotely close in scope to Parthenon Marbles?

[Pannonian]

The Marbles are currently in Britain, and have been for ages. Therefore it should up to Greece to make a convincing case for their return. Saying that Britain are in wrong for keeping them isn't a convincing case.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Which begs for the question: will you return the US to the native Americans?

We signed treaties, either before ever fighting them or after fighting them, outlining the agreements of the Indians and the US Gov't.

And then the gov't violated many agreements...

But the point is we didn't make off in the night and hack up statues to sneak them on boats.*


"I think they belong to all of us. We are all global citizens these days," said British Museum spokeswoman Hannah Boulton.

Well **** that. That sticks in my craw. Sounds like a filthy thief's excuse. That's definitely changed my mind. I didn't much of an opinion on this when I read the thread, but now I really want the return of the statues.

Those statues have been a constant part of Greek national identity since they were made - for millenniums, unlike tombs buried under sand. And now the British Museum says they simply belong to everybody? What are they going to give up? The crown jewels?

CR
*Which may not be what the British fellow did. But you get my point.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I have not felt this stupid since my teacher asked me what the capital of Russia was and I answered with '12'. :shame:


And rightly so! We all know that the answer is 18!


Name one that comes even remotely close in scope to Parthenon Marbles?

We've got the whole Ishtar Gate sitting in Berlin.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

We signed treaties, either before ever fighting them or after fighting them, outlining the agreements of the Indians and the US Gov't.

And then the gov't violated many agreements...

But the point is we didn't make off in the night and hack up statues to sneak them on boats.*


Well **** that. That sticks in my craw. Sounds like a filthy thief's excuse. That's definitely changed my mind. I didn't much of an opinion on this when I read the thread, but now I really want the return of the statues.

Those statues have been a constant part of Greek national identity since they were made - for millenniums, unlike tombs buried under sand. And now the British Museum says they simply belong to everybody? What are they going to give up? The crown jewels?

CR
*Which may not be what the British fellow did. But you get my point.

I'm sorry, did you just post this?

I hope tongue in firmly in cheak, because otherwise you win the award for "Hipocritical dross".

Give back everything you definately stole after Red Cloud's War, then criticise the British Museum.

[Strike For The South]

We signed treaties, either before ever fighting them or after fighting them, outlining the agreements of the Indians and the US Gov't.

And then the gov't violated many agreements...

But the point is we didn't make off in the night and hack up statues to sneak them on boats.*

.

Yea we just blatantly kicked them off there land and sent them to Oklahoma. Heres a fun fact for you, Oklahoma is actually the 7th circle of hell.

As for the marbles. I say the brits have the right to keep them, the Greeks of course have every right to invade and take them though.

[Sarmatian]

We've got the whole Ishtar Gate sitting in Berlin.

That's hardly a German artifact found outside of Germany and I thought we're talking about that. Anyway, Ishtar Gate is a reconstruction based on excavated material. It's hardly the same as hacking up pieces of Parthenon with a saw.

[Rhyfelwyr]

If I had to choose, I would say us Brits ought to keep them, although really I do not care at all.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If I had to choose, I would say us Brits ought to keep them, although really I do not care at all.

Just to shake thing up:beam::

How do you feel about the Stone of Scone?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

That's hardly a German artifact found outside of Germany and I thought we're talking about that.

:inquisitive:

No, it is a Babylonian (now Iraqi) artifact in Germany. Should it be returned to Iraq?

Likewise, the Elgin Marbles are a Greek artifact in Britain. Should it be returned to Greece?

I'm a no on both counts.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Just to shake thing up:beam::

How do you feel about the Stone of Scone?

Aha, that came to mind when I read the OP.

Truth be told, I don't care, it's a stone.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I thought the Stone of Scone was returned???

Do you really pronounce it as 'scoon'? Or is that only Scottish?

[Pannonian]

I thought the Stone of Scone was returned???

Do you really pronounce it as 'scoon'? Or is that only Scottish?
Major returned it, the soft git. The English should have kept it, as a reminder that the jackboot won't ever be removed from Scottish necks.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Major returned it, the soft git. The English should have kept it, as a reminder that the jackboot won't ever be removed from Scottish necks.I really should stand up for the Auld Alliance here, but statements like that make me wish I was English. Ohoh.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Major returned it, the soft git. The English should have kept it, as a reminder that the jackboot won't ever be removed from Scottish necks.

You sure, it's not where it should be, as Neil Oliver will tell you.

Anyway, it has been Scottish jackboots on English necks since the 17th century.:thumbsdown:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Having thus come under the spell of English civilization, I hereby declare myself 'English' and shall henceforth defend England from Johnny Foreigner and his whining ways.


You really missed the mark. Actually, you didn't just miss the mark, you missed the venue, city and continent.

It would be rather foolish not to have space for them when they've wanted them back for so long.No, I think nobody has been more right about Greece since an Ottoman General looked over the Bosporus and said 'four hundred soldiers should be enough'.

Let's digress:
When one drives from Brazil into Argentina, the first thing one sees is a big sign that says 'The Maldives are Argentine!'. The very first thing, the most important thing, they want foreigners to know about Argentina is the Falklands. The return of the Falklands has been made central to their nationalism. When the Argentinian provinces were re-organised a few years ago, the Falklands were re-administered to another province.

Of course, during the brief two decades that two dozen Argentines lived in the Falklands, nobody in Buenos Aires cared about these frozen rocks. It only became an issue after Argentina sank into misery, after its glorious future turned into a melancholy over what never was.

In Greece, entire temples have been let to rot. Ancient shrines, used by shepherds for their flock to shelter during winter. Even as we speak, big developers can build over priceless archeological sites. Certainly, the Greeks are outraged when this happens. But none of this is made into a central part of national identity. Yet a few statues displayed abroad are.

England shouldn't return islands and statues, it should send shrinks instead.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Maybe we should return what's left of that Crimean gun, as well?

[Xiahou]

Yea we just blatantly kicked them off there land and sent them to Oklahoma. Heres a fun fact for you, Oklahoma is actually the 7th circle of hell.

As for the marbles. I say the brits have the right to keep them, the Greeks of course have every right to invade and take them though.
Yeah, basically. The British took them fair and square. If the Greeks want their artifacts back it's up to them to persuade the British. The British have no obligation to return them.

[Sarmatian]

No, I think nobody has been more right about Greece since an Ottoman General looked over the Bosporus and said 'four hundred soldiers should be enough'.

Let's digress:
When one drives from Brazil into Argentina, the first thing one sees is a big sign that says 'The Maldives are Argentine!'. The very first thing, the most important thing, they want foreigners to know about Argentina is the Falklands. The return of the Falklands has been made central to their nationalism. When the Argentinian provinces were re-organised a few years ago, the Falklands were re-administered to another province.

Of course, during the brief two decades that two dozen Argentines lived in the Falklands, nobody in Buenos Aires cared about these frozen rocks. It only became an issue after Argentina sank into misery, after its glorious future turned into a melancholy over what never was.

In Greece, entire temples have been let to rot. Ancient shrines, used by shepherds for their flock to shelter during winter. Even as we speak, big developers can build over priceless archeological sites. Certainly, the Greeks are outraged when this happens. But none of this is made into a central part of national identity. Yet a few statues displayed abroad are.

England shouldn't return islands and statues, it should send shrinks instead.

Oh, this is great. When there's a heated discussion between French and English about HYW, there's your normal, everyday, run-of-the-mill, modern, democratic, European, vulgaris domestica type of nationalism. When there's a heated discussion between let's say Serbs and Bulgarians about a war that happened 600 years ago then it is Balkan Nationalism(tm). Something deeper, more sinister. Not really definable, we have no idea what it is, but it is something worse. God forbid that we think they are normal people. We started much more wars, wars that have been thousands times more bloody but that's normal. They? They have deep issues. It's normal only when we do it.

I'm willing to bet that there have been many examples of stuff of important cultural value destroyed in France over the centuries. Does that mean that no one in France would mind if come and take half of Versailles? Everyone would be "oh, help yourself, we've been trying to get rid of that old thing for ages". Britain sold London Bridge, can I take what I like from Buckingham Palace? It seems to me that they don't care about it all and I think they should have had more respect for London Bridge. Since they didn't, I'm declaring London open for looting. I don't think that my neighbour cares enough about his Yugo, so I'll take his Mercedes....

Who are you decide what Greeks should or should not deem important? To decide whether they need shrinks? They want something that stood in Athens for millenniums, that was important to them for millenniums, that was taken away illegally when one man used the corruption in an empire that conquered them and controlled them for a time. They gave their bullets to the Ottomans if they wouldn't damage the Parthenon. They want a part of their cultural heritage back, cultural heritage that survived countless wars, Romans and Turks and barbarians but couldn't survive one man who wanted to give inspiration to the British artists. And now they want it back. Really, crazy, nationalist idiots, all of them. Send them shrinks quickly, next they will start thinking that Athens is actually their capital while we all know that in reality it belong to everyone and we're all citizens of the world.

Discussion of whether BM should give it back is one thing, discussing motives of the Greeks in a condescending way is another. They definitely have legitimate reason to want it back...

[Incongruous]

Oh, this is great. When there's a heated discussion between French and English about HYW, there's your normal, everyday, run-of-the-mill, modern, democratic, European, vulgaris domestica type of nationalism. When there's a heated discussion between let's say Serbs and Bulgarians about a war that happened 600 years ago then it is Balkan Nationalism(tm). Something deeper, more sinister. Not really definable, we have no idea what it is, but it is something worse. God forbid that we think they are normal people. We started much more wars, wars that have been thousands times more bloody but that's normal. They? They have deep issues. It's normal only when we do it.

I'm willing to bet that there have been many examples of stuff of important cultural value destroyed in France over the centuries. Does that mean that no one in France would mind if come and take half of Versailles? Everyone would be "oh, help yourself, we've been trying to get rid of that old thing for ages". Britain sold London Bridge, can I take what I like from Buckingham Palace? It seems to me that they don't care about it all and I think they should have had more respect for London Bridge. Since they didn't, I'm declaring London open for looting. I don't think that my neighbour cares enough about his Yugo, so I'll take his Mercedes....

Who are you decide what Greeks should or should not deem important? To decide whether they need shrinks? They want something that stood in Athens for millenniums, that was important to them for millenniums, that was taken away illegally when one man used the corruption in an empire that conquered them and controlled them for a time. They gave their bullets to the Ottomans if they wouldn't damage the Parthenon. They want a part of their cultural heritage back, cultural heritage that survived countless wars, Romans and Turks and barbarians but couldn't survive one man who wanted to give inspiration to the British artists. And now they want it back. Really, crazy, nationalist idiots, all of them. Send them shrinks quickly, next they will start thinking that Athens is actually their capital while we all know that in reality it belong to everyone and we're all citizens of the world.

Discussion of whether BM should give it back is one thing, discussing motives of the Greeks in a condescending way is another. They definitely have legitimate reason to want it back...

Post is completley off point as well you know. You have failed to come up with an argument that strips away British claims of legality, and I disagree with the moralisms you have used.


cultural heritage that survived countless wars, Romans and Turks and barbarians
What a load of bollox, you clearly know nothing about the destruction of Greek heritage, Christ the Greeks themselves can't look after it.

[Sarmatian]

Post is completley off point as well you know. You have failed to come up with an argument that strips away British claims of legality, and I disagree with the moralisms you have used.

In this post I wasn't arguing British claim of legality but Louis' claim that the only reason Greeks want them back is blind nationalism.

Main reason why I think Elgin Marbles should be given back is because they belong there and they would be better appreciated together with the rest. As I've said in earlier posts, they're a part of a greater whole and could be enjoyed and appreciated much better in their proper cultural environment.

Also, I do think that the way Elgin obtained them wasn't fair and proper, even if it was legal (which is debatable).



What a load of bollox, you clearly know nothing about the destruction of Greek heritage, Christ the Greeks themselves can't look after it.

Which gives the right to anyone else to take what he wants from Greece? Anyway, they've built a fine museum so we know that they can take care of these sculptures better than British Museum can.

[Pannonian]

Maybe we should return what's left of that Crimean gun, as well?
That's an absolute disgrace which any historian should be rightfully furious about. Not only do they not properly keep it, they periodically hack chunks off this valuable historical artifact, and melt those bits of debris down to make jewellery. IMHO the Russian government should complain about this wanton vandalism of its historical treasure, and demand its return, and the return of those baubles that were made from their property.

[rasoforos]

In Greece, entire temples have been let to rot. Ancient shrines, used by shepherds for their flock to shelter during winter. Even as we speak, big developers can build over priceless archeological sites. Certainly, the Greeks are outraged when this happens. But none of this is made into a central part of national identity. Yet a few statues displayed abroad are.



I am beyond words with your ignorant and arrogant statements. I just believe you are having fun trolling but I would rather you do not, since this is a sensitive issue.

FUI before anything is built in Greece, the Archaeological service inspects and conducts thorough analyses. If even something small like a coin is found then you may not built until everything is excavated and if buildings are found you cannot built at all. It took someone close to our property about 15 years to be able to built. So no, basically no one builds over priceless archaeological sites unless they are located inside your own head.

Ancient sites were of course used by shepperds etc 500 years ago, everywhere in the world. There was no archaeology back then. So your point was basically valid but alas, half a millenium too late.

Now to the main argument:

1. The marbles are not an artefact or a statue. They are part of a temple. Pieces of the temple were hacked off and taken away and that is an act of vandalism. Taking them out is like taking the Black Stone our of Kaaba and it is as infuriating to the Greeks as such an act would be for the Arabs.

2.

Elgin did not have a altruistic motive to 'save' the marbles. His plan was to sell them and make lots of money. And he did just that.

3.

The marbles were damaged multiple times. Firstly by lord Elgin who's idea of Archaeology was to hack things off.

Secondly by inept 'archaeologists' whose idea of restoration included caustic materials, chiselling, lard,oil etc. Consequently the marbles are in very poor state and all in all much more damaged than the rest of the temple (even though it is exposed to the elements).

Thirdly the marbles have been often subjected to various acts of vandalism in the British museum. As if their own 'restoration' techniques were not enough...

It is time the marbles are given the attention they deserve, by people who really value them, and not by people who just make money out of them. I fear that if this is not made so, in a century or two we will just seeing pictures of them.

4.

There is an international trend about returning pieces of the Parthenon back to their rightful owner and many countries and national collectors have done so, realising their importance.


5.

The Parthenon is a world heritage site and a symbol of western civilisation, and should therefore be restored to the best state possible.

6.

The Parthenon is a temple to the Goddess Athena. To a number of Greeks, lord Elgins actions were acts of desecration of a religious site.


Once again, this is a very sensitive issue to Greeks. Participants should take into account that each nation has different sensitivities and tollerances towards obnoxious attempts to humour. I would kindly ask the moderating team to keep trolling behaviour at bay. I already feel trolled enough as it is...


I forgot to mention that, polls show that, the majority of the Brits out there are in favour of the marbles being returned. Thank you guys :)

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

1. The marbles are not an artefact. They are part of a temple.

The fact they are part of a temple does not mean that they are also not an artifact. They are indeed artifacts.


Elgin did not have a altruistic motive to 'save' the marbles. His plan was to sell them and make lots of money. And he did just that.

In my opinion totally irrelevant, but I digress...


Thirdly the marbles have been often subjected to various acts of vandalism in the British museum. As if their own 'restoration' techniques were not enough...

Before making such a serious accusation I would recommend you back that up with what vandalism was committed and with sources.


There is an international trend about returning pieces of the Parthenon back to their rightful owner and many countries and national collectors have done so, realising their importance.

That has no relevance to Britain, last I checked they are still a sovereign nation and can make decisions for themselves. You can always continue with some form of negotiation if you want them back.


The Parthenon is a world heritage site and a symbol of western civilisation, and should therefore be restored to the best state possible.


I don't disagree with that, but Greece doesn't deserve the Marbles back though your statement is true.


The Parthenon is a temple to the Goddess Athena. To a number of Greeks, lord Elgins actions were acts of desecration of a religious site.

How many Greeks were pagan when they were taken? In that timeframe? I don't think many were more pagan than Lord Elgin himself.

[Kurando]

Dull is the eye that will not weep to see
Thy walls defaced, thy mouldering shrines removed
By British hands, which it had best behoved
To guard those relics ne'er to be restored.
Curst be the hour when from their isle they roved,
And once again thy hapless bosom gored,
And snatch'd thy shrinking gods to northern climes abhorred!

Not to make lite of a serious situation, but that is quite possibily the worst poem I have ever encountered in my entire life!

[Rhyfelwyr]

Anyway, it has been Scottish jackboots on English necks since the 17th century.:thumbsdown:

What?

[Samurai Waki]

If the Greeks want them, they should be willing to put their money where their mouth is. You can't expect hand me outs, especially from the British :wink:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What?

Since James I, Rhy, all subsequent Royal claims run through him.

An uncomfortable truth North of the border, and South as well. The Scots won the war because the English ran out of game-pieces.

[Furunculus]

send them back.

i'm not interested in some guilt trip about the terrible 'injustice' of the event, but if they can take care of them properly and want them back, then lets give them back.

[Furunculus]

Yea we just blatantly kicked them off there land and sent them to Oklahoma. Heres a fun fact for you, Oklahoma is actually the 7th circle of hell.

As for the marbles. I say the brits have the right to keep them, the Greeks of course have every right to invade and take them though.

rofl, i shudder with dread fear! :laugh4:

[Sarmatian]

rofl, i shudder with dread fear! :laugh4:

They could probably take on both you and US but they are afraid of possible Luxembourgian intervention...

[Papewaio]

Since James I, Rhy, all subsequent Royal claims run through him.

An uncomfortable truth North of the border, and South as well. The Scots won the war because the English ran out of game-pieces.

Aren't the game pieces now Greek too by the male line? :laugh4:

[Jolt]

I'm apalled to see how many people promote and defend cultural theft. People who deem stealing property which is not theirs to begin with as acceptable. And the moral abhorrency behind such an act as irrelevent. Greeks made and built those artifacts which were built in honor of what those Greeks believed in, and is therefore a part of the Greek heritage. I would love for once to see the rocks of Stonehenge stolen, and appearing a year later on display at the museum of St. Petersburg, to see what would be the opinion of our British colleagues (Especially those at the British museum). At least a regular thief steals from an individual or a group of individuals. Britain has in effect stolen a part of a World Heritage site, which is the same as stealing from the entire humanity. I look forward to your applause and adulation, when works of art in Le Louvre are stolen.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Britain has in effect stolen a part of a World Heritage site, which is the same as stealing from the entire humanity.

Was it a World Heritage site then? Were the goods even technically stolen? Your analogies simply do not compare.

[Papewaio]

Was it a world heritage site before or after the marbles had been removed?

There is a lot of obelisks from the antiquities in other countries...

[Furunculus]

I'm apalled to see how many people promote and defend cultural theft. People who deem stealing property which is not theirs to begin with as acceptable. And the moral abhorrency behind such an act as irrelevent. Greeks made and built those artifacts which were built in honor of what those Greeks believed in, and is therefore a part of the Greek heritage. I would love for once to see the rocks of Stonehenge stolen, and appearing a year later on display at the museum of St. Petersburg, to see what would be the opinion of our British colleagues (Especially those at the British museum). At least a regular thief steals from an individual or a group of individuals. Britain has in effect stolen a part of a World Heritage site, which is the same as stealing from the entire humanity. I look forward to your applause and adulation, when works of art in Le Louvre are stolen.

I'm with EMFM here, greece has no legal right to the marbles, and britain as a sovereign nation state has no legal obligation to return them whatever other nations choose to do so.

However, greece does have the right to negotiate for their return, and I would be sympathetic to that request as an isolated decision that forms the basis of no future precedent.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I've noticed that the opinions here tend towards being against repatriation of the artefacts from posters of imperial nations, and for that repatriation by posters from nations who have experienced colonisation - at least, reasonably recently.

That is understandable perhaps. It is hard for people who do not relate to the concept of being owned by a great power to understand the symbols that are clung to - however illogical. However, one should try.

It is certainly hard to establish a legal basis for returning the marbles to Greece. Equally, there ought to be a recognition that without Elgin's opportunistic theft, the carvings would likely be in a much worse condition - the Parthenon very nearly dissolved in the seventies and eighties.

That said, there is a compelling moral argument for an ex-Imperial power to recognise the hurt which the marbles' exile represents. It would be an act of generosity towards all those people who suffered under an Imperial yoke (and especially to Greece) to give back the relics now that they have a museum worthy of them, so that they may be seen in actual context.

Such an act of generosity need not set a precedent, but the world could bear a sensible examination of the acts of plunder that fill most western museums.

[Furunculus]

I've noticed that the opinions here tend towards being against repatriation of the artefacts from posters of imperial nations, and for that repatriation by posters from nations who have experienced colonisation - at least, reasonably recently.



i hope you noted that i am not part of that correlation?

[Banquo's Ghost]

i hope you noted that i am not part of that correlation?

Of course. And I did say "tend" because, of course, there are many shades of grey in people's positions. :wink:

[Banquo's Ghost]

Banquo.. are you suggesting America has no history of being a colonial victim? :laugh4:

I was expecting such a rejoinder. :beam:

Not in the recent past, certainly. And one could argue that Colonial America (as opposed to pre-Columbus) had very little cultural heritage to steal. All your symbols of nationhood are still in your own possession.

Imagine if the War of Independence had led to a defeat. The original Declaration of Independence was taken back to the United Kingdom and used as a wall decoration in King George's toilet for a while and then consigned to a museum. Then, in 1812, freedom was finally won and the United States grew to prominence.

Do you think that there would be some measure of national feeling that the document should be returned? After all, it's just a piece of parchment.

I submit that there would be such a feeling. Even the United States, characterised as they are by many cultural memes and a focus on the future rather than the past, value their symbols - otherwise no-one would care about things like flag pins on politicians.

I am not saying this justifies all cultural claims, but that it bears consideration when countries which have suffered colonisation voice their emotional attachments to certain symbols.

BTW, it's great to see you back GC. :bow:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Oh, this is great. When there's a heated discussion between French and English about HYW, there's your normal, everyday, run-of-the-mill, modern, democratic, European, vulgaris domestica type of nationalism. When there's a heated discussion between let's say Serbs and Bulgarians about a war that happened 600 years ago then it is Balkan Nationalism(tm). Something deeper, more sinister. I would like to think I have given many a harsh verdict of nationalism before. Be it British, French, Belgian, German, Polish, Argentinian, Dutch, Serbian, Irish, or others. The reaction from posters from the country involved is usually the same: bitter dissapointment, and surprise at the absense of moderation.
What can I say? We all have our pet subjects, and poking my finger firmly into festering nationalism in one of mine. National identities are not historical products, but constructs. I destruct them by chiselling away at them like Lord Elgin at the Acropolis. From the hacked off pieces I then construct their meaning. Deconstruction, as it were.

Rest me to say three things: The harshness is aimed at nationalism, not at Greece. I have no special dislike for the Balkan variant over other nationalisms. Lastly, I should like to apologize for the Ottoman and shrink statements. This was sarcasm taken too far. :embarassed:
(The mods ought to give me a minor infraction...)



Discussion of whether BM should give it back is one thing, discussing motives of the Greeks in a condescending way is another. They definitely have legitimate reason to want it back...There certainly are very good reasons for return indeed. On restitution or not, I am very torn.

The distinction between restitution and discussing Greek motives is important, and I am happy you picked up on that.

The museum is part archeological museum, part a political statement.
As one walks through the museum, making one's way through Athenian history, one gradually works one's way up through the building. Until one reaches the top floor - the apotheosis of the museum. This entire top floor consists of a glass gallery, overlooking the Acropolis. It is completely empty. Custom build for the Elgin Marbles. The program is clear.
It is as much an exercise in archeological exhibition, as in the creation and maintenance of outrage. The visitor does not leave replenished by the confrontation with antiquity, he is guided towards feeling outrage at the missing sculptures. The museum is a political tool. I would call it a work of propaganda, but I am not quite convinced the political message is that direct and explicit.

What does the museum tell us about the construction of Greek identity?
Greek identity has not chosen Sparta, or Byzantium, or Minoan civilization as its model. It is constructed around 'Athens'. Specifically, the 19th century Romantic view of Athens. This museum then, the Acropolis Museum, is the sacred temple to modern Greek identity.
And what does this temple devoted to the heart of Greek national identity portray, relates? Not antiquity, not history itself, but anger over a history that was stolen.

It is cultural irredentism, the thought that once the 'missing parts' are returned, the nation is complete again. And only once they are returned. Until then, national energy must be devoted to redressing this wrong.
No Italy without Triest, no Argentina without the Maldives, no Greece without the Acropolis restored, no Germany without Strasbourg, no Irish Republic without the North. Once returned, the nation will healed. Completed again. The past Golden Age that was interrupted by foreign control can be resumed. This is the unfortunate myth of many nations that have suffered foreign occupation.
There is true and direct stiltment of national growth when there is direct foreign control. Once this is gone, a nation can be forward looking, or irredentism can set in. The psychological foreign control is then transferred into a missing object. As long as this remains foreign, the national identity is incomplete. The foreign occupation remains, this time psychologically. National growth remains stilted.

Return of the object, fullfillment of irredentism, cultural or not, has never proved as satisfactory for the countries involved as they thought. The underlying mechanism is never resolved.

If the Elgin Marbles are returned today, another furor will have taken its place by tomorrow.

Be it FYROM, or be it outrage over Olympics that are not returned to Greece for their 100th birthday, or be it something else.

[Banquo's Ghost]

It is cultural irredentism, the thought that once the 'missing parts' are returned, the nation is complete again. And only once they are returned. Until then, national energy must be devoted to redressing this wrong.
No Italy without Triest, no Argentina without the Maldives, no Greece without the Acropolis restored, no Germany without Strasbourg, no Irish Republic without the North. Once returned, the nation will healed. Completed again. The past Golden Age that was interrupted by foreign control can be resumed. This is the unfortunate myth of many nations that have suffered foreign occupation.
There is true and direct stiltment of national growth when there is direct foreign control. Once this is gone, a nation can be forward looking, or irredentism can set in. The psychological foreign control is then transferred into a missing object. As long as this remains foreign, the national identity is incomplete. The foreign occupation remains, this time psychologically. National growth remains stilted.

Return of the object, fullfillment of irredentism, cultural or not, has never proved as satisfactory for the countries involved as they thought. The underlying mechanism is never resolved.

This is a very astute analysis. It is the overwhelming tragedy for many post-colonial nations.

Yet it is also the fate of Empires. The embrace of past glories through symbols to soothe the pain of mediocrity.

That is why it is wonderful that, within the European Union, my country is actually united. And I can visit the Parthenon Marbles as easily in London or Athens.

[Pannonian]

That said, there is a compelling moral argument for an ex-Imperial power to recognise the hurt which the marbles' exile represents. It would be an act of generosity towards all those people who suffered under an Imperial yoke (and especially to Greece) to give back the relics now that they have a museum worthy of them, so that they may be seen in actual context.

Such an act of generosity need not set a precedent, but the world could bear a sensible examination of the acts of plunder that fill most western museums.
Acts of generosity don't tend to be reciprocated when the recipient of such generosity start talks by belabouring the giver with accusations of theft, vandalism and whatever else. If Greece wants the Marbles so damn much, Britain should get whatever it can for them. Eg. If the UK government feels that Turkey is better inside the EU than outside, start talks for the Marbles by demanding Greek support for Turkey's admission into the EU.

Edit: Re: Gelatinous Cube - any WWOWs in here?

[Jolt]

Was it a World Heritage site then? Were the goods even technically stolen? Your analogies simply do not compare.

Is it not now? What is a part of a World Heritage site of the Acropolis doing in London of all places? They were removed based on the consent of a foreigner who had occupied the country and not of its native people. I know it was stolen, and so does everybody else, only that some people defence is standing behind the law, which neither takes into account the morality of an action, nor is there any international law system designed for this type of problem. It would virtually be the same as imagining Germany was annexed by Russia and some random British citizen decided to buy the gate of Brandenburg and brought it back to London to look real nice in the museum and you defending that it should remain in London. At least my analogies make a lot more sense than calling the morality of stealing (buying or extracting of the artifacts without the consent of a self-determinated people) as irrelevant. Such statement isn't even worth comparing with anything. It is senseless coming from a human who (I hope) has moral values in which he guides his life.

[Furunculus]

Acts of generosity don't tend to be reciprocated when the recipient of such generosity start talks by belabouring the giver with accusations of theft, vandalism and whatever else. If Greece wants the Marbles so damn much, Britain should get whatever it can for them. Eg. If the UK government feels that Turkey is better inside the EU than outside, start talks for the Marbles by demanding Greek support for Turkey's admission into the EU.

Edit: Re: Gelatinous Cube - any WWOWs in here?

haha, what an awesome idea, i'm all for turkey getting its chance. :2thumbsup:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I've noticed that the opinions here tend towards being against repatriation of the artefacts from posters of imperial nations, and for that repatriation by posters from nations who have experienced colonisation - at least, reasonably recently.

That is understandable perhaps. It is hard for people who do not relate to the concept of being owned by a great power to understand the symbols that are clung to - however illogical. However, one should try.

It is certainly hard to establish a legal basis for returning the marbles to Greece. Equally, there ought to be a recognition that without Elgin's opportunistic theft, the carvings would likely be in a much worse condition - the Parthenon very nearly dissolved in the seventies and eighties.

That said, there is a compelling moral argument for an ex-Imperial power to recognise the hurt which the marbles' exile represents. It would be an act of generosity towards all those people who suffered under an Imperial yoke (and especially to Greece) to give back the relics now that they have a museum worthy of them, so that they may be seen in actual context.

Such an act of generosity need not set a precedent, but the world could bear a sensible examination of the acts of plunder that fill most western museums.

I'm not sure if this is correct or not.

It assumes that the English (and let's be honest, "British", means "English" in this context) do not feel themselves to have been a subjugated people. Yet the most important date in the English historical narrative is 1066, precisely the point we came under the yoke of a foriegn King, since which time we have been under an unbroken succession of foriegn monarchs.

So I counter your point by suggesting that the English have been subjugated for nearly a thousand years, that 1/5 of the country is still owned by the decendants of William's mercenaries and that we, or at least I, feel that if we can put up with it then everyone else should too.

In fact, one might go so far as to suggest that the problem is that Greece is not currently subjugated, but that England is; going even further one could argue that Ellgin was a member of our foriegn aristocracy who oppressed and robbed Englishman and Greek alike.

It's entirely a matter of perspective.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Is it not now? What is a part of a World Heritage site of the Acropolis doing in London of all places?

It was removed long before the term ''World Heritage site'' even existed. Might as well declare everything a World Heritage site if there are things missing from it that you want back.


They were removed based on the consent of a foreigner who had occupied the country and not of its native people.

They were removed under the consent of the authority of the time.


It would virtually be the same as imagining Germany was annexed by Russia and some random British citizen decided to buy the gate of Brandenburg and brought it back to London to look real nice in the museum and you defending that it should remain in London.

With the consent of the Russian authorities, who ruled the territory in question? I wouldn't like the Gate being taken, but I wouldn't demand it back hundreds of years later. I might negotiate for it. Remember, parts of the Brandenburg Gate were taken before - and we went and took them back.

[HoreTore]

I say 'yes'.

Not because I care about what happened, who's being dishonest, lying thieves, who's preserving what or whatever.

The simple fact that the Greeks want it back is enough for me. Museums shouldn't care about money(public funding ftw), they should care about researching history and informing the population of said history. If some british historian or whatever needs a closer look at the marbles because of whatever, then well, we live in a globalized world, the aeroplane is invented.

But 'oh noes', I hear you cry; 'won't that mean that everything will be returned'? No, it won't. The people in London will still be able to see the wonders of other lands in their own museums, simply because the greeks(and everyone else), will want to see other peoples stuff in their museums too, thus ensuring that populations will swap a bunch of stuff with each other. And I do believe that will be a better system, one built on who wants what, instead of who was capable of stealing what.

And again, if everything greek is in greece, and I want to see the wonders of Greece, the areoplane is still invented. And I've heard that tourism thingy is rather nice for an economy....

[Marshal Murat]

But 'oh noes', I hear you cry; 'won't that mean that everything will be returned'? No, it won't.
Actually, were the UK to give up Elgin marbles means that they're willing to repatriate any and all pieces. If they give up the Elgin marbles, then what's to stop the Egyptian government from also storming in and saying "Give us these Egyptian sculptures and artifacts!" The pieces are part of "Egypt's Heritage" and such.


The simple fact that the Greeks want it back is enough for me.
A man walks into a suit store. He buys a suit, likes it, takes it home. The suit store is placed under new management, the owner very attached to the "bought suit" he is perhaps the original owner before he lost the store. The Man doesn't want to give it back, despite the sentimental value attached to it. Now are you seriously suggesting that the Man be compelled by law and force to return a suit he bought fairly whilst under one manager simply because the new manager wants the suit back?

I'm in agreement with Louis here.

[HoreTore]

Actually, were the UK to give up Elgin marbles means that they're willing to repatriate any and all pieces. If they give up the Elgin marbles, then what's to stop the Egyptian government from also storming in and saying "Give us these Egyptian sculptures and artifacts!" The pieces are part of "Egypt's Heritage" and such.

Yes, and that's all good, I'm all for that. Read the rest of my post to see my view on what will happen.

A plane ticket to Greece will cost you a mighty 40 euros. Stop yer whining.


A man walks into a suit store. He buys a suit, likes it, takes it home. The suit store is placed under new management, the owner very attached to the "bought suit" he is perhaps the original owner before he lost the store. The Man doesn't want to give it back, despite the sentimental value attached to it. Now are you seriously suggesting that the Man be compelled by law and force to return a suit he bought fairly whilst under one manager simply because the new manager wants the suit back?

I'm in agreement with Louis here.

Irrelevant and flawed analogy.

[Marshal Murat]

A plane ticket to Greece will cost you a mighty 40 euros. Stop yer whining.
But that's not factoring in that I lack basic communication skills in Greek, I don't really have alot of money to begin with (not with this economy), it would probably cost me alot more to fly from America into Europe, into Greece. Transportation from airport to Parthenon would cost some more money, not including admission to the museum and room/board for the night unless I fly directly back to America.
That's alot of money these days.

Or I could fly from America to London, take transportation to British Museum, actually understand everything (plus excellent exhibits which wouldn't be there if nationalistic impulses of other countries decided to abscond with them to the far, dusty, and air-time-heavy flight locations), and be more capable of surviving in London.


And I've heard that tourism thingy is rather nice for an economy....
It's nice, sure, but to sacrifice it at the expense of serious industry is dangerous.

[KukriKhan]

Looking at Cheaptickets.com, oddly, Miami to Athens is $367. Miami to London $428. BYO everything.

Be gracious, thank Greece for the loan, and give 'em back. Greece should thank UK for maintaining them so well all this time.

[InsaneApache]

Looking at Cheaptickets.com, oddly, Miami to Athens is $367. Miami to London $428. BYO everything.

Be gracious, thank Greece for the loan, and give 'em back. Greece should thank UK for maintaining them so well all this time.

Except the British Museum didn't. At the beginning of the last centuary they used wire brushes and corrosive chemicals to 'clean' up the marbles. A lot of damage was inflicted on them. Now the excuse used to be that the Greeks couldn't have them back because they didn't have the resources to look after them properly. When that was the case I agreed that they stay where they are. Now that they have built a facility capable of looking after them, that reason has gone and I now think that they should be returned.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Except the British Museum didn't. At the beginning of the last centuary they used wire brushes and corrosive chemicals to 'clean' up the marbles. A lot of damage was inflicted on them. Now the excuse used to be that the Greeks couldn't have them back because they didn't have the resources to look after them properly. When that was the case I agreed that they stay where they are. Now that they have built a facility capable of looking after them, that reason has gone and I now think that they should be returned.

Why don't we just return half, and make casts of the other half? We could even alternate which half is in each country every five years. Then both museums could claim to have the real thing, and proudly trumpet the return every five years of the Elgin marbles, while quietly shuffling the other half out the back door and replacing them with replicas.

[Sarmatian]

Why don't we just return half, and make casts of the other half? We could even alternate which half is in each country every five years. Then both museums could claim to have the real thing, and proudly trumpet the return every five years of the Elgin marbles, while quietly shuffling the other half out the back door and replacing them with replicas.

That's the worst possible solution. This isn't a pissing contest of who has more statues, it's about restoring it and putting those sculptures back in their proper historical and cultural context.



There certainly are very good reasons for return indeed. On restitution or not, I am very torn.

The distinction between restitution and discussing Greek motives is important, and I am happy you picked up on that.

The museum is part archeological museum, part a political statement.
As one walks through the museum, making one's way through Athenian history, one gradually works one's way up through the building. Until one reaches the top floor - the apotheosis of the museum. This entire top floor consists of a glass gallery, overlooking the Acropolis. It is completely empty. Custom build for the Elgin Marbles. The program is clear.

That's the point, isn't it? Entire museum is custom built, to the highest possible standards, to hold various things from Parthenon and Acropolis. Part where are Elgin Marbles are supposed to go isn't different than the rest of the museum. Yet, you immediately focused on that part. So, in order to be free of accusations of nationalist outrage by your standards, the Greeks shouldn't have built the part where they're supposed go or they shouldn't have built the museum at all.




It is as much an exercise in archeological exhibition, as in the creation and maintenance of outrage. The visitor does not leave replenished by the confrontation with antiquity, he is guided towards feeling outrage at the missing sculptures. The museum is a political tool. I would call it a work of propaganda, but I am not quite convinced the political message is that direct and explicit.

That is a bit harsh to say about a museum you've never set foot in. Possibly, you're right, but I don't think that's the whole story. Even here at our little forum, you've heard Americans, British, Portuguese, Serbs... saying that marbles should be returned. Hardly Greek nationalists and that proves that nationalism isn't at the core of this issue, or isn't the only issue, depends how you want to phrase it. That's why I attacked your post.

Even if it is supposed to outrage potential visitors, Greeks still have every right to do it. They should make their story known. The worst thing they can do is shut up, because then marbles won't ever be returned. It's not like the Greeks just remembered Elgin Marbles. For a long time they've been trying get them back, through official and unofficial channels, but now when they've built a museum, all that is irrelevant and their effort gets branded as "nationalism".



What does the museum tell us about the construction of Greek identity?
Greek identity has not chosen Sparta, or Byzantium, or Minoan civilization as its model. It is constructed around 'Athens'. Specifically, the 19th century Romantic view of Athens. This museum then, the Acropolis Museum, is the sacred temple to modern Greek identity.
And what does this temple devoted to the heart of Greek national identity portray, relates? Not antiquity, not history itself, but anger over a history that was stolen. It is cultural irredentism, the thought that once the 'missing parts' are returned, the nation is complete again. And only once they are returned. Until then, national energy must be devoted to redressing this wrong.
No Italy without Triest, no Argentina without the Maldives, no Greece without the Acropolis restored, no Germany without Strasbourg, no Irish Republic without the North. Once returned, the nation will healed. Completed again. The past Golden Age that was interrupted by foreign control can be resumed. This is the unfortunate myth of many nations that have suffered foreign occupation.
There is true and direct stiltment of national growth when there is direct foreign control. Once this is gone, a nation can be forward looking, or irredentism can set in. The psychological foreign control is then transferred into a missing object. As long as this remains foreign, the national identity is incomplete. The foreign occupation remains, this time psychologically. National growth remains stilted. Return of the object, fullfillment of irredentism, cultural or not, has never proved as satisfactory for the countries involved as they thought. The underlying mechanism is never resolved.

If the Elgin Marbles are returned today, another furor will have taken its place by tomorrow.

Be it FYROM, or be it outrage over Olympics that are not returned to Greece for their 100th birthday, or be it something else.


You would have a point, if it weren't for the fact that Greece developed quite a bit in the last couple of decades. They are moving on, moving forward, but that shouldn't stop them from wanting back what's theirs. Also, there are more practical aspects to be taken into account here - tourism is very important for the Greek economy and cultural heritage ancient Greece is important aspect of tourism.

I do understand what you're trying to say, and I mostly agree with you, I just don't think that's the case here. Nationalism may have given it a boost, but it's not the driving force behind this.

The other issue is that I have a short temper when it comes to patronizing and condescending rhetoric that comes from the civilized world. You didn't even try to address the motives of those English that don't want to give them back, and most importantly you didn't project their opinion or the official position of the British Museum and use it to put a label on the entire nation, like you did when you were talking about Greeks.

You shouldn't do that of course, but you also shouldn't do it for other nations.

[Jolt]

actually understand everything (plus excellent exhibits which wouldn't be there if nationalistic impulses of other countries decided to abscond with them to the far, dusty, and air-time-heavy flight locations), and be more capable of surviving in London.

Heck, what is the rest of Parthenon doing in Athens!? The Pyramids in a sandy backyard like Egypt? The Great Wall of China going through the end of the world?

Really what Britain should do is dismantle all these things and assemble them in London where you can enjoy them and actually understand it. Not to mention surviving. I for one, propose that Portugal dismantle the Tower of Belem as well as all the magnificient palaces we have here and give it to the British Museum so you can watch them and actually understand everything.

EDIT: Louis, myself as a former Archaeology student the fact that the Marbles aren't returned is as great outrage as when I read of all the valuable sites in Egypt and the Middle East that were looted. I agree greatly that they maintain such a room completely empty to show the consequences of looting. Archaeological material of high value robbed and de-faced from its archaeological context and kept in a place completely out of touch with the true essence of the marbles, while the original place where it should have remained is dryed clean. It is an archaeological sentiment, I suppose. I cannot express my horror enough.

[Papewaio]

Lastly, I should like to apologize for the Ottoman and shrink statements. This was sarcasm taken too far. :embarassed:
(The mods ought to give me a minor infraction...)

The consensus amongst the British and German moderators was that being French was punishment enough. :drummer:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's the worst possible solution. This isn't a pissing contest of who has more statues, it's about restoring it and putting those sculptures back in their proper historical and cultural context.

That statement demonstrates it is a "pissing contest" as you put it. Part of the historical context is that they were taken to Britain, that the Turks let them be taken... etc.

Even if they are returned no one will be allowed to touch them, and if you make replicas tourists won't be able to tell the difference. In fact, you could make replicas of how they would have looked 2000 years ago, speculative reconstructions that give a real feel for what the sculptors intended.

Heck, for the money they spent on the museum they could have hired masons and architechs and just restored the Parthenon. That would make the British look really pathetic and it would demonstrate the artistic greatness of both ancient and modern Greece.

[Louis VI the Fat]

The consensus amongst the British and German moderators was that being French was punishment enough. :drummer:
I would deconstruct the above but you'll only laugh at the Frenchness of it. :bigcry:


I shall now go to the Backroom Watchtower and make a six-page whinging thread involving moderators, TWC, and ramblings about ill-understood freedom of speech. Then I'll bombard the PM-inboxes of the mods. Until you revoke your decision and hand me my warning points, damnit.

[KukriKhan]

I would deconstruct the above but you'll only laugh at the Frenchness of it. :bigcry:


I shall now go to the Backroom Watchtower and make a six-page whinging thread involving moderators, TWC, and ramblings about ill-understood freedom of speech. Then I'll bombard the PM-inboxes of the mods. Until you revoke your decision and hand me my warning points, damnit.

Nice to know that protocol is respected around here.

[Ja'chyra]

Maybe I'm not as much a master debator as some here but reading this thread all I see is a bunch of whinging which is about as useful as a post made by Soly back in the day.

The simple facts are the marbles are in London and Greece would like them back, so ask for them, and you don't start off a request that has any reasonable chance of being approved with demands and accusations. So ask for them back and you'll get an answer, either yes or no.

If it's yes then happy days we can all go back to discussing guns and hitler, if it's no then you've got three choices as I see it. Negotiate till you get what you want, go and take them, or whine about it at every opportunity. Personally I'd go with door number 1 if I was Greece, number 2 is not very likely to succeed, to put it mildly, and number 3 is only going to make things worse and in a few years the only people who really care any more are said master debators on internet forums.

These people are supposed to be adults, if my staff acted like this I'd sack every one of them and replace them with cardboard cutouts of Avril Lavigne and Kylie.

[rasoforos]

But that's not factoring in that I lack basic communication skills in Greek, I don't really have alot of money to begin with (not with this economy), it would probably cost me alot more to fly from America into Europe, into Greece. Transportation from airport to Parthenon would cost some more money, not including admission to the museum and room/board for the night unless I fly directly back to America.
That's alot of money these days.

Or I could fly from America to London, take transportation to British Museum, actually understand everything (plus excellent exhibits which wouldn't be there if nationalistic impulses of other countries decided to abscond with them to the far, dusty, and air-time-heavy flight locations), and be more capable of surviving in London.


It's nice, sure, but to sacrifice it at the expense of serious industry is dangerous.


1. We all speak english too here (Well most). This turned out to be a big problem for my wife since she has been trying to practice her greek and everyone seems to be replying in English. Also, hmm, no easy way to say this but, I believe that you ll understand english with a greek accent much better and easier than cockney.

2. Flights cost the same or so.


3. Transportation...take the tube from the Airport, change at 'Nerantziotissa' and exit at the 'Acropolis' station. At a much lower rate than taking the same trip from Heathrow or Gatwick to the British Museum :yes:

4. Admission is 1 Euro till the end of the year.

5. Room and Board. 3 days of 5 star hotel in Athens including meals probably costs as much as renting a rabit hole for a day in London. Trust me on that because I ve lived in both cities. Also, if you are house trained I could offer you a room to stay for free :laugh4:

Seriously though. Anyone coming to Greece drop me a line before you do.


For the main topic:


Considering loans from museums. Greece has no problem if the marbles are returned as loan. We have collections on loan on hundeds of museums.

[InsaneApache]

Do you provide free Mythos? If you do, I'm on my way. :yes: :laugh4:

[CountArach]

A plane ticket to Greece will cost you a mighty 40 euros. Stop yer whining.
More like AU$1500 :dizzy2:

[HoreTore]

More like AU$1500 :dizzy2:

.....From England, of course.

As for you silly non-euro's, it'll cost you a fortune to fly to europe anyway, so whether you go to Greece or England is quite irrelevant.

[HoreTore]

Seriously though. Anyone coming to Greece drop me a line before you do.

Easy now, I might take you up on that....

I've already been to sicily this summer, but I'm being nagged to go on another vacation. Greece sounds like fun...

[rasoforos]

I guess my beef with Greece on this one is that they are so terribly far removed from the builders of the Acropolis that it's hardly something they can just claim, in my opinion. Modern Greece has it's own very distinct culture.



I really want to know where you heard that nonsence, I do.

Probably the only european nation that speaks (and can understand) the same language spoken 2000 years ago, keeping the same customs, same names and toponyms, and yet you keep repeating your uninformed historically obsolete and inaccurate opinion.

Now everytime an American tourist in Greece asks me directions for the Pyramids I will remember of you. :inquisitive:

Anyway I spent too much time on this...



HoreTore, seriously if you do come I ll find time to show you and your friends around :2thumbsup:

InsaneApache Even better than Mythos :yes:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I really want to know where you heard that nonsence, I do.

Probably the only european nation that speaks (and can understand) the same language spoken 2000 years ago, keeping the same customs, same names and toponyms, and yet you keep repeating your uninformed historically obsolete and inaccurate opinion.

I think that's something of an oversimplification of the situation, isn't it?

If you want another example, I present Israel. Except Israel is partly a deliberate reconstruction of a nation, including a very deliberate attempt to revive a dead languge which was successful.

Now, I thought modern Greek had been "purified" and was actually closer to Athenian than Koine, or later Medieval forms. As to continuous culture, I don't think so, there's a big glut of Byzantine Christianity et al. that you guys seem to conveniently forget, or ignore.

[InsaneApache]

My dad can read ancient inscriptions on tombs and suchlike and he learned modern Greek. I think that they added two more letters to the alphabet (see what I did there? :beam:) since Alexanders time.

[HoreTore]

Now, I thought modern Greek had been "purified" and was actually closer to Athenian than Koine, or later Medieval forms. As to continuous culture, I don't think so, there's a big glut of Byzantine Christianity et al. that you guys seem to conveniently forget, or ignore.

So.....

Since Norway is now a christian/social democratic country, we can no longer claim ownership of a viking heritage...?

And the Roman Empire is irrelevant to Italy?

[Kralizec]

If proponents argued that all artefacts should be returned to the area of question, they might have a leg to stand on. Instead we'll have to make due with "Greece is a special case, since they're pretty much the same people they were 2500 years ago and have only changed slightly" wich I don't find very convincing.

A large number of works from painters like Rembrand, Van Gogh etc. are in foreign hands. If I were to argue that they're pieces of Dutch national history, that nobody had the right to sell them off to foreigners and that they should be repatriated - wouldn't I be laughed at?

If the British museum voluntarily decided to return them, that would be super awesome of them. But they're not under any sort of obligation to do so.

[HoreTore]

If proponents argued that all artefacts should be returned to the area of question, they might have a leg to stand on.

That's exactly what I was arguing in my first post here ~:)

That is, all items should be returned if the country from where it was taken asks for its return.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So.....

Since Norway is now a christian/social democratic country, we can no longer claim ownership of a viking heritage...?

And the Roman Empire is irrelevant to Italy?

You can claim to have a connection to Viking herritage, but how Viking are you? Plenty of the raiders stayed and settled, so perhaps a man from Newcastle has a better claim to Viking herritage than you. In any case, you are removed from the Vikings by a thousand years, do you have "ownership" of that history just because you occupy what is vaguely the same geographical location?

The situation is worse in Greece and Italy, with multiple waves of mass-immigration and invasion.

What you cannot claim is to be a Viking, or to have an unbroken connection to that culture.

[HoreTore]

What you cannot claim is to be a Viking, or to have an unbroken connection to that culture.

Now, I might be blind or slightly retarded, but...

Where on earth did I make any such claim?

[Sarmatian]

I don't understand why people think this revolves around whether or not Greeks have a right to demand Elgin Marbles back. This isn't, or shouldn't be about the Greeks, this should be about the Parthenon. That's what we are talking about. This is not some hoplon or sarissa, it's the freakin' Parthenon. One monumental work of art, one of the symbols of the western civilization with immense mythical and cultural value. It's not like modern Greeks are direct descendents of ancient Greeks, I don't buy that either but I'd say it is their cultural heritage and they should definitely preserve it and be aware of it. Of course, not just Greeks, but pretty much all European nations share the same link with ancient Greeks culturally. Some more, some less but it is there generally in European culture, and precisely because of that it should be important to all of us and we should try to restore the Parthenon as much as possible. It would reminds of that least those values of ancient Greece that inspired and influence European culture and history.

[Kralizec]

You didn't, but some Greeks do.

Exactly the opposite is happening in Italy. Italian history books will tell you that Marco Polo was an Italian. Lega Nord voters will maintain that he's Venetian, and nothing else.
It's all about subjective thinking. The Greeks have decided that their nation is a continuation of a bunch of diverse city-states that existed over 2000 years ago and that they'll feel strongly about their heritage whenever it comes up. The issue is why this should give them a greater claim to the Elgin marbles then the Egyptians have on artefacts from that region.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Now, I might be blind or slightly retarded, but...

Where on earth did I make any such claim?

You didn't, but some Greeks make that kind of claim. I was merely extending the comparison.

Just for the record, whatever else I may think you are, retarded is not it.

[rasoforos]

Now, I thought modern Greek had been "purified" and was actually closer to Athenian than Koine, or later Medieval forms. As to continuous culture, I don't think so, there's a big glut of Byzantine Christianity et al. that you guys seem to conveniently forget, or ignore.



What you are talking about is καθαρευουσα and it is an artificial construct not used today. There was a failed effort for it to be implemented.

I am talking about δημοτικη greek, the language your average Joe (or your average Νικος, in our case I suppose) speaks. It is rather identical to κοινη ελληνιστικη.

Once again, I would appreciate it if you do not make potentially insulting statements when you do not even have an elementary grasp of the facts. No one forgets the Byzantine era, no-one forgets that Hellenism remained alive despite millenia of foreign occupation. The Hellenic sense of nationality survived the melting pot of the Roman empire and the persecution of the Ottoman empire. And it is offensive when someone who does not even know what language we speak to doubt that.

I would also like to pinpoint that the whole matter of discussion is off topic and has nothing to do with the marbles. We are talking about the restoration of a world heritage site and you are just launching an attack against Greece.

(In theory there is a backroom rule about nation bashing, particularly when the insult is applied to the whole nation and not to acts of their government. Doesn't it apply?)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What you are talking about is καθαρευουσα and it is an artificial construct not used today. There was a failed effort for it to be implemented.

I am talking about δημοτικη greek, the language your average Joe (or your average Νικος, in our case I suppose) speaks. It is rather identical to κοινη ελληνιστικη.

Once again, I would appreciate it if you do not make potentially insulting statements when you do not even have an elementary grasp of the facts. No one forgets the Byzantine era, no-one forgets that Hellenism remained alive despite millenia of foreign occupation. The Hellenic sense of nationality survived the melting pot of the Roman empire and the persecution of the Ottoman empire. And it is offensive when someone who does not even know what language we speak to doubt that.

I would also like to pinpoint that the whole matter of discussion is off topic and has nothing to do with the marbles. We are talking about the restoration of a world heritage site and you are just launching an attack against Greece.

(In theory there is a backroom rule about nation bashing, particularly when the insult is applied to the whole nation and not to acts of their government. Doesn't it apply?)

I have not been "nation bashing", I simply do not buy into the historical narrative of uninterupted heritage that I so often hear coming from the direction of Greece. Ok, so I was wrong about the language issue, I apolagise.

That, however, does not change my fundamental position that Greece does not have the right to demand the return of the Elgin Marbles. The fact is, we are not talking about the restoration of a world heritage site. No one is suggesting the marbles should be reattached, repaired, repainted etc, the roof put back and a new statue of Athena cast. If that were the aim, then I could be persuaded.

It isn't, we're talking about moving blocks of stone from one museum, where you can't touch them, to another museum where you can't touch them. That's just an exercise in national grandstanding.

[Pannonian]

That, however, does not change my fundamental position that Greece does not have the right to demand the return of the Elgin Marbles.
Greece has every right to demand the return of the Elgin Marbles. They just don't have the wherewithal to make us comply. And since we have the Marbles, we get to decide what to do with them. Judging from this thread, I'm inclined to keep them, just for spite. Unless, as I've suggested above, we get a good political price for them, eg. the Marbles will be returned when Turkey enters the EU, with Greece voting for their admission.

[rory_20_uk]

Turkish entry gains the UK nothing, except destabilising the EU some more.

~:smoking:

[HoreTore]

Turkish entry gains the UK nothing, except destabilising the EU some more.

.....And stabilizing Turkey a great deal.

[rory_20_uk]

.....And stabilizing Turkey a great deal.

So, when was stabilising Turkey a massive priority for the UK?

Between massive debt, two unwinnable wars, a tax heavy services sector and a whole host of other problems I don't think that we're in a position to be trying to save the world.

Other countries with less domestic problems and more revenues might like to chip in...

~:smoking:

[Pannonian]

Turkish entry gains the UK nothing, except destabilising the EU some more.

~:smoking:
It seriously annoys the Greeks though, which is worth the Marbles. Heck, perhaps add another condition: the Marbles will be returned once Turkey and the Republic of Macedonia are admitted into the EU. Greece will obviously have to vote in favour of both, as part of the conditions.

[Furunculus]

Turkish entry gains the UK nothing, except destabilising the EU some more.

~:smoking:

that is why i want them in.

[Meneldil]

As much as I feel sorry for the people who want to see the Parthenon complete once again, the greek case isn't really strong.

The marbles were taken to Britain legally. Just claiming that there's an uninterrupted history and heritage between the builders of the Parthenon and nowadays greeks (which seems more than dubious at best) doesn't make a point.

I'd be in favor of returning the Marbles in exchange of a political move. Recognizing Fyrom would be a fair one I'd say.

[Furunculus]

letting in turkey. :D

[Sarmatian]

It seriously annoys the Greeks though, which is worth the Marbles. Heck, perhaps add another condition: the Marbles will be returned once Turkey and the Republic of Macedonia are admitted into the EU. Greece will obviously have to vote in favour of both, as part of the conditions.

This is really pathetic, it shows that you don't really care about the Marbles but are doing just for spite. Ex-empire complex example at its finest.

[rory_20_uk]

This is really pathetic, it shows that you don't really care about the Marbles but are doing just for spite. Ex-empire complex example at its finest.

True, but then the Marbles themselves are ex-empire, and the Greeks have a complex about it too...

~:smoking:

[HoreTore]

This is really pathetic, it shows that you don't really care about the Marbles but are doing just for spite. Ex-empire complex example at its finest.

Don't be too hard on the lad, can't be easy to be a nationalist living in a country slowly fading away into obscurity....

[Sarmatian]

True, but then the Marbles themselves are ex-empire, and the Greeks have a complex about it too...

~:smoking:

So, let me see if I got it right, there's some English nationalists with an ex-empire complex and some Greek nationalists with an ex-empire complex who are happily involved in a pissing contest while normal English, Greeks and millions of other people in Europe and the world can't enjoy Parthenon marbles because of the aforementioned nationalists?

That's where the problem lies?

[Pannonian]

Don't be too hard on the lad, can't be easy to be a nationalist living in a country slowly fading away into obscurity....
The fading happened ages ago, but people still abuse Britain for what was done generations ago, so we've kind of got used to being hated. Accusations of imperialism still get trotted out fairly regularly, even though we're trying to persuade others to adopt constitutionalism, democracy, liberalism, etc. So my view is: sod principles, let's just make the most of what we have, since others won't be doing us any favours anyway. That's probably the sign of being a proper grown up post-colonialist country - being comfortable with what we are, not expecting anything for nothing, not imposing ourselves on others unless there is a fair exchange in one form or another.


So, let me see if I got it right, there's some English nationalists with an ex-empire complex and some Greek nationalists with an ex-empire complex who are happily involved in a pissing contest while normal English, Greeks and millions of other people in Europe and the world can't enjoy Parthenon marbles because of the aforementioned nationalists?

That's where the problem lies?
The British Museum has free admission the last time I checked.

[Ja'chyra]

So, let me see if I got it right, there's some English nationalists with an ex-empire complex and some Greek nationalists with an ex-empire complex who are happily involved in a pissing contest while normal English, Greeks and millions of other people in Europe and the world can't enjoy Parthenon marbles because of the aforementioned nationalists?

That's where the problem lies?



Honestly? Yes, that and the phrasing of the question I think, with the caveat of "while normal English, Greeks and millions of other people in Europe and the world can't enjoy Parthenon marbles in their original, and probably best suited, location."

[HoreTore]

The fading happened ages ago, but people still abuse Britain for what was done generations ago, so we've kind of got used to being hated. Accusations of imperialism still get trotted out fairly regularly, even though we're trying to persuade others to adopt constitutionalism, democracy, liberalism, etc. So my view is: sod principles, let's just make the most of what we have, since others won't be doing us any favours anyway. That's probably the sign of being a proper grown up post-colonialist country - being comfortable with what we are, not expecting anything for nothing, not imposing ourselves on others unless there is a fair exchange in one form or another.

Sounds rather juvenile when applied to politics - sorry.

[Pannonian]

Sounds rather juvenile when applied to politics - sorry.
Not when there's the current and close-to-home (Commonwealth) example of Zimbabwe. Now there's an example of Britain trying to talk sense into Zimbabwe, and failing that, their South African sponsors. But because we have absolutely no leverage whatsoever, they're free to ignore us, call us names, and blame our imperialist past for their current plight. Since we're going to be hated anyway, we might as well use whatever we have to strike the best deals we can get. That way, we'll still be hated, but at least we'll have something to show for it.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Not when there's the current and close-to-home (Commonwealth) example of Zimbabwe. Now there's an example of Britain trying to talk sense into Zimbabwe, and failing that, their South African sponsors. But because we have absolutely no leverage whatsoever, they're free to ignore us, call us names, and blame our imperialist past for their current plight. Since we're going to be hated anyway, we might as well use whatever we have to strike the best deals we can get. That way, we'll still be hated, but at least we'll have something to show for it.

Or maybe foreign relations could bear some degree of fine tuning - so that it is recognised that Zimbabwe is run by a despot who would blame Xenu if he thought it would bring him another day in power, whilst Greece is a free and democratic country and partner in the European Union with which we might have a sensible and mutually beneficial dialogue about heritage.

[Incongruous]

Sounds rather juvenile when applied to politics - sorry.

Why?

[Pannonian]

Or maybe foreign relations could bear some degree of fine tuning - so that it is recognised that Zimbabwe is run by a despot who would blame Xenu if he thought it would bring him another day in power, whilst Greece is a free and democratic country and partner in the European Union with which we might have a sensible and mutually beneficial dialogue about heritage.
Countries in South Africa's circle have been happy to bring accusations of imperialism every time we tried to use our influence, which I can only imagine was done with South Africa's approval. I know that in cricket, the Indians regularly make the same accusations every time the ECB tries to do anything (despite their own board being the most expansionist and influential), and I think there are hints that it's the case in the wider diplomatic world as well, although we clash less often. I'm inclined to think: sod it, let others have their own way, and we'll look after ours. I agree with your call for sensible and mutually beneficial dialogue, but your emphasis is probably on heritage, whereas I'm more interested in benefit.

If Greece wants the Marbles that much, while there are certain political problems concerning Greece that we don't see a way of resolving, why not tie one with the other and see if they'll go for it? At worst, we'll be left with the status quo, perhaps with Greece hating our guts, but that's no biggie - it's not as if we're not used to being hated. If they do accept the bargain, they'll get their Marbles back, and we'll have solved a political problem that looked unsolvable. I can live with being called childish, if these are the benefits.

[Furunculus]

interesting take on matters from the economist:
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=13900966&source=hptextfeature

Embrace the Munich declaration of loaning artworks, or watch museums all over the world clam up totally.

and

Take a chance on loaning a piece of the marbles to greece, and if its seized then stick two fingers up to any further demands.

[rory_20_uk]

Museums should be happier to display copies. The true experts who would notice the difference and need to investigate the real ones can go see them. The rest can just enjoy the show. I'd get no more from the real Mona Lisa than a good fake as I'd not be able to tell the difference and certainly not at the distance I'd be required to stand to view it.

After all, most Roman statues in Marble are copies of Greek ones that were usually Bronze and hence melted for the metal.

~:smoking:

[Furunculus]

another article on les marbles:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/culturecritics/richarddorment/5699534/The-Elgin-Marbles-will-never-return-to-Athens---the-British-Museum-is-their-rightful-home.html

[Sarmatian]

The first article did contain some interesting ideas, but this one is bollox.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The first article did contain some interesting ideas, but this one is bollox.

It is and it isn't. He's right about the legal issue, the marbles are unlikely to go anywhere in the forseeable future and Greece doesn't have a legal claim.

Lets look at some of the comments people posted:



let remember some things:
1 The marbles are names Parthenon Marbles and not Elgin Marbles ( elgig did not make them)
2 Buying from a thief is not legal
3 When we had civilization you used to be apes on trees
4 You are not the empire you used to be (there is no more India, or Pakistan)
5 Please tell us what British do you have on National Museum that was created in the Uk?
6 Cos you are great in writing English came out of German and your language is not original yours
7 Richard Dorment get control of your self and stop writing this crap (please for god sake)

This encapsulates pretty much every Greek pregudice, and it demonstrates why many in Britain have the "two fingers" mentality, I've heard the "apes in trees" arguement before; it doesn't hold up against the Henges older than anything in Classical Greece.



What a crock! You can't legally sell something that doesn't belong to you, and the selling of the marbles by the Turks was cultural theft. If the Greeks were under Turkish rule - against their will, as was the case - then they had no say about the sale of the marbles. So in this new century do we still live by the old adage, "To the victor goes the spoils."? The "right" thing to do is return the marbles to Greece. To slander this generation of Greeks with what their forefathers did to antiquities is bunk. The new Acropolis Museum is testiment to the fact that this generation of Greek society cares about their cultural heritage. I've been to London, and visiting the "Elgin" marbles never occurred to me. Why wouldn't anyone want to see them in their native area? Oh, and just so you know - Greece IS in this world, so anyone in THIS world could also see them if they were in Greece.

This completely misses the legal point, and the point that almost everyone is, or has been, ruled by foriegners.

I stand by what I said before, Britain holds the legal right to the marbles. Antagonising the British Museum will never yeild their return.

[TinCow]

I think the care the Brits have taken for the last couple hundred years to preserve, display, and educate about the Elgin marbles has earned them the right to keep them if they wish to. While they may have been created in Greece, they wouldn't even exist anymore if Elgin hadn't saved them. At a certain point, the 'new' owner of artifacts gains property rights to them that are superior to the 'old' owner. There are many things like this in the world, and it would be wrong to return them all just because they're not currently owned by the descendants of the original owner.

Should Venice give the Horses of Saint Mark to Turkey? Should Britain give the Koh-i-Noor to India (or Pakistan or Iran)? Should Rome (and the Vatican) give their numerous Roman-era obelisks to Egypt? Should Britain give the Rosetta Stone to Egypt, or maybe to France? Should France give the Bayeux Tapestry to Britain (where it was made)?

IMO, the answer to all of these is no.