Official EB Tournement Thread

[antisocialmunky]

Since Phalanx is gone and no one can update the old thread, I am taking over and making a new thread.

General Rules:


1) EB 1.2 will be used, with all fixes installed(even though you should still be able to play without fixes).

2) Hamachi shall be used to play the battles.
THIS CAN CONCEIVABLE CHANGE IF WE CAN GET LEAF TO WORK

Network Names:
EBOT_0
EBOT_1
EBOT_2
EBOT_3
EBOT_4

Passwords are all EB.

Small guide for online play by Tolg which was made for the previous tournament:


Extensive Multiplayer Guide (by Tolg):

This guide is written so that anyone can understand it. Please just ignore the obvious bits.

Make sure that you have a clean install of:
RTW + Patch 1.3 + Patch 1.5
EB 1.1
EB 1.2
The EB 1.2 Fixes
(Installed in this order)
Check if your firewall allows RTW to access the Internet
Download Hamachi
Install Hamachi and read it's tutorial. It only tales ~2 minutes but helps a lot.
a) Create a Hamachi network (press the triangul button at the bottom left of the Hamachi window, select create network, enter the name and a password and hit OK)
b) Join the network that was created by your opponent. (The triangular button again, join network and enter name and pw of the network)
Now it gets tricky:
Cut your main internet connection.
Start EB using the mp .exe and click "Multiplayer" and "Lan Battle"
Minimize your game (Alt + Tab or Alt + Esc)
Reenable your Internet connection
return to the game and do as described in the previous guide (Step 8).
Don't forget to save the replay once you're done!


3) Main Rules:

Budget Mnai:
36K

Definitions:
-The cavalry types of LIGHT/MEDIUM/HEAVY are assigned by the description, not their in game tags.
-MISSILE CAVALRY is classified as MEDIUM since they almost exclusively use secondary swords or overhand spears.
-ELITE units are those who are described as elite by their ingame or EB website descriptions. (https://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions.html)
-FACTIONAL UNITS are those units that are listed under you faction' description on the EB website. (https://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions.html)
-MERCENARY/ALLIED units are those units that you have access to in multiplayer roster that are not on the website.
-SKIRMISHERS are javelin armed units that have a skirmish mode option.
-A PHALANX is a unit which has a phalanx mode option, not hoplites or other untis described as a 'phalanx.'
-A PHALANX BOX is a formation of phalanxes where the phalanxes are put into a rectangle or some other enclosed shape.
-A RUN THROUGH is where you order your men to run through an enemy formation.
-ARCHER rules also apply to SLINGERS
-ELEPHANTS are counted as cavalry.

Normal Army Rules:
-Max 6 Elites
-Max 5 Mercenary/Allies
-Max 8 Phalanx

-Max 5 Cavalry
-Max 3 Heavy Cavalry
-Max 4 Archers/Horse Archers
-Max 6 Skirmishers/Horse Skirmishers
-Max 2 Elephants

Steppe Army Rules:
-Max 6 Elites
-Max 5 Mercenary/Allies
-Max 6 Phalanx
-Max 10 infantry

-Max 10 Cavalry
-Max 4 Heavy Cavalry
-Max 8 Archers/Horse Archers
-Max 8 Skirmishers/Horse Skirmishers
-Max 2 Elephants

Steppe Rules can only be used by Steppe Factions and those who (mostly) border Steppe Factions, these factions can use those rules:
-Pahlava
-Saka
-Sauromatae
-Hayasdan
-Getai
-Baktria

Steppe factions can elect to go with normal rules instead of steppe rules.

Other Limits:
You have use 1 experience point boost(the chevron). No other upgrades are allowed with one exception(see below).

Faction Specific Rules:
-Romans are LIMITED to the factional units from one era. Pick one and stick with it. However, you may use Samnite Spearmen in Polybian and Velites in Marian. Italian Units(Samnites, Pedites, Italian Elite Cavalry, Campanian Cavalry, Ligurians, Bruttians, and Lucianians should not be used after Polybian)

-Mercy Rule for Saba: It has no army composition limit, just upgrade limits. They aren't going to do well so I respect whoever has the balls to play this faction.

Team Rules
-Teams must be of the same size. Winners get 1 point each, losers lose 1 point each.

Fair Play Rules
-NO RUN THROUGHS. The exceptions are when you are withdrawing your cavalry when they are surrounded and when the unit is in loose(which screws up the engagement AI).
-NO CHARGING THROUGH YOUR OWN MEN WITH CAVALRY. You can charge them together or you can charge infantry after. The exception to this rule is if its reasonably accidental in the heat of battle or minor.
-DO NOT MOVE ELEPHANTS OR CHARIOTS THROUGH YOUR OWN MEN. They would be killed in real life so since this isn't in RTW, you cannot do this.
-NO STACKING YOUR UNITS ONTOP OF EACH OTHER EXCEPT WHEN ATTACKING, only up to 25% of a unit may be covered by other units. You can have attacking units overlapping to sim reenforce/crush of a major charge/break guard mode units. ARCHERS OR SLINGERS FIRING DO NO COUNT AS 'ATTACKING' UNITS. ATTACKING UNITS MUST BE A UNIT NOT IN GUARD MODE ATTACKING IN MELEE. The exception to the exception is that NO PHALANX UNIT MAY OVERLAP ANOTHER PHALANX UNIT MORE THAN 25% EVEN IF THEY ARE ATTACKING.
-When choosing elephants/chariots, ANNOUNCE THAT YOU HAVE ELEPHANTS/CHARIOTS!!!
-If you are Rome, please say what reform you are.
-If you are using a steppe army, please say that you are using steppe rules.
-No moving cavalry through units with the phalanx ability whether its on or off unless its in loose.

Victory Conditions
-If your opponent has no cavalry and makes a phalangite box and you can surround it with your men. You win.
-If your opponent has only cavalry, you outnumber them more than 2:1, and you're just chasing him around the map, if after 5 minutes your opponent does not attack, you win.

Draw Rules
-If the map is the side of a Mountain, a Bridge, has closely spaced Buildings then you are allowed to leave the game during deployment phase without penalty.
-If one player crashes during the game and it has not been decisively decided(submit to jury), then there is no penalty.
-If or you opponent allows you to, you can restart the game with no penalty.

Jury: Replays will be posted so save your tournament battles! After which we collectively in the official battle report thread to decide whether it was a legit win. Practice/test battles should be posted here.


So since its been so long since the initial sign up, I'm going to ask all palyers to sign up again.

Saba
Parallel Pain - Good Luck.

Aedui
NeoSpartan

Averni
The Celtic Viking

Romani
Agrippa
ACS
Mithick666
spiritusdilutus
Lestat
JinandJuice

Saka
Antisocialmunky

Carthage
Darius_D
Jebivjetar
m0r1d1n

Arche Seleukia
HunGeneral*
French-Legionaire
Fluvius Camillus
Kniva

Pontos
tsidneku
Apázlinemjó

Makedonia
Maion
Alexander
Flavius_Belisarius

Getai
Maris
mountaingoat

KH
Alsatia
"Hiero"

Sweboz
Phalanx300

Hayasdan
Vartan

Casse
Gabeed

Unit Lists
-E = Elite
-H = Heavy Cav

Notable Elite Mercenary List: - This is not meant to be definitive. You should first check other's faction's lists to find if a certain mercenary is a factional for someone else and elite.
-Thracian Rhomph Assault Infantry
-Any Naked Fanatics
-Cretan Archers
-Baleric Slingers
-Rhodian Slingers
-Gallic/Belgae/Galatian Heavy Cavalry -H
-Any Noble Horse Archers

Rome - Your factional troops ARE RESTRICTED to these. Don't use factions from other eras. You don't have to announce your choice. Just stick to the one you pick.

Camillan Factionals
Camillian Hastati
Camillian Principles
Camillian Triarii -E
Camillian Equites
Leves
Accensi
Rorarii
Pedites Extraordinarii -E
Samnite Hastati
Equites Extraordinarii -E -H
Consular Bodyguards -E -H

Polybian Factionals
Polybian Hastati
Polybian Principles
Polybian Triarii -E
Polybian Equites
Velites
Pedites Extraordinarii -E
Samnite Hastati
Equites Extraordinarii -E -H
Consular Bodyguards -E -H

Marian
Velites
Antesignani - E
Cohors Reformata
1st Cohors Reformata - E
Cohors Evocata
The 4 Auxillary Cavalry types
Consular Bodyguards -E -H

Imperial
Vigiles
Antesignani - E
Cohors Praetoriana -E
Cohors Imperitoria
1st Cohors Imperitoria - E
Cohors Evocata
Ala Imperitoria
Eqvites Praetoriani - E
Equites Singulares -E -H
Cohors Validvm Avxiliarivm
Cohors Sagittariorvm Levantinorvm -E

Italian Units - Don't use these after Polybian
Equites Extraordinarii -E -H
Samnite Hastati
Ligurian Infantry
Ligurian Cavalry
Campanian Cavalry - E
Bruttian Infantry
Lucianian Light Infantry
Pedites Extraordinarii


Aedui/Arvernii

Lugoae
Gaeroas
Gaelaiche
Botroas
Iaosatae
Sotaroas
Bagaudas
Bataroas
Uirodusios -E
Teceitos
Gaesatae -E
Solduros -E
Golberi Curoas
Enoci Curoas
Neitos
Carnute Cingetos -E
Arjos -E
Leuce Epos
Brihentin -E -H
Curepos
Noricene Gaecori
Batacorii
Milnaht
Taramannos
Remi Mairepos -E -H
Mori Gaesum -E
Gaizoz Alje


Arche Seleukia - Hellenic Cataphracts... They are expensive but they suck against horses and bad morale so they are professional IMHO(debate)

Pantodapoi (Hellenic Native Spearmen)
Akontistai (Hellenic Skirmishers)
Gund-i Palta (Eastern Skirmishers)
Sphendonetai (Hellenic Slingers)
Shuban-i Fradakhshana (Eastern Slingers)
Toxotai (Hellenic Archers)
Thanvare Payahdag (Persian Archers)
Nizagan-i Eranshahr (Persian Archer-Spearmen)
Iudaioi Taxeis (Jewish Spearmen)
Katpatuka Zanteush (Cappadoccian Hillmen)
Peltastai (Hellenic Heavy Skirmishers)
Misthophoroi Uazali (Mercenary Karian Warband)
Toxotai Syriakoi (Syrian Archers)
Pantodapoi Phalangitai (Hellenic Native Phalanx)
Klerouchoi Phalangitai (Hellenic Medium Phalanx)
Pezhetairoi
Thureophoroi (Hellenic Spearmen)
Thorakitai
Tabargane Eranshahr (Eastern Axemen)
Asabaran-i Hauravatish (Arachosian Skirmisher Cavalry)
Asabaran-i Madaen (Median Medium Cavalry)
Khuveshavagan (Persian Heavy Cavalry) -E -H
Asiatikoi Hippakontistai (Eastern Light Cavalry)
Asiatikoi Hippeis (Medium Eastern Cavalry)
Galatikoi Lavotuxri (Galatian Heavy Cavalry) -H -E
Prodromoi (Successor Medium Cavalry)
Hetairoi Aspidophoroi -E
Lonchophoroi Hippeis (Hellenic Medium Cavalry) -H
Hellenikoi Kataphraktoi (Hellenic Cataphracts) -H -E
Argyraspides (Hellenic Elite Phalanx) -E
Hypaspistai -E
Peltastai Makedonikoi (Hellenistic Elite Infantry) -E
Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou (Hellenic Elite Spearmen) -E
Hetairoi (Companion Cavalry) -E -H
Elephantes Indikoi (Indian Elephants) -E
Elephantes Kataphraktoi Indikoi -E -H


Baktria

Pantodapoi (Hellenic Native Spearmen)
Gund-i Palta (Eastern Skirmishers)
Shuban-i Fradakhshana (Eastern Slingers)
Thanvare Payahdag (Persian Archers)
Nizagan-i Eranshahr (Persian Archer-Spearmen)
Pantodapoi Phalangitai (Hellenic Native Phalanx)
Kofyaren-i Kavakaza (Baktrian Light Infantry)
Tabargane Eranshahr (Eastern Axemen)
Peltastai (Hellenic Heavy Skirmishers)
Thureophoroi (Hellenic Spearmen)
Thorakitai
Pezhetairoi
Prodromoi (Successor Medium Cavalry)
Baktrioi Hippeis (Baktrian Medium Cavalry) -H
Baktrioi Hippotoxotai (Baktrian Horse-Archers)
Baktrion Agema (Baktrian Royal Guard) -E
Peltastai Makedonikoi (Hellenistic Elite Infantry) -E
Hellenikoi Kataphraktoi (Hellenic Cataphracts) -H
Somatophylakes Strategou (Baktrian Early Bodyguard) -H -E
Hetairoi Kataphraktoi -H -E
Elephantes Indikoi (Indian Elephants)-H
Elephantes Kataphraktoi Indikoi (Armoured Indian Elephants) -H -E
Hindus Pattisainya (Indian Spearmen)
Hindus Patiyodha (Indian Longbowmen)
Sreni Pattya Yoddaha (Infantry Guild Warriors) -E
Kamboja Asvaka Ksatriya (Indo-Iranian Light Cavalry) -E
Taxilan Agema (Indo-Iranian Heavy cavalry) -E -H
Peltastai Indohellenikoi (Indo-Greek Peltasts)
Hoplitai Indohellenikoi (Indo-Hellenic Medium Infantry)
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai (Indo-Greek Noble Hoplites) -E
Asab�r�n-� Haur�vat�sh (Arachosian Skirmisher Cavalry)
Daha Baexdzhyntae (Dahae Riders)


Hayasdan Courtesy of Vartan


Hayasdan Faction Troops

Pantodapoi Phalangitai (Hellenic Native Phalanx)
Gund-i Palta (Eastern Skirmishers)
Shuban-i Fradakhshana (Eastern Slingers)
Thanvare Payahdag (Persian Archers)
Kavakaza Sparabara (Caucasian Spearmen)
Hai Nizagamartik (Armenian Spearmen)
Kovkasi Lernain Netadzik (Caucasian Archers)
Nizakahar Ayrudzi (Armenian Skirmisher Cavalry)
Ayrudzi Netadzik (Armenian Horse-Archers)
Aspet Hetselazor (Armenian Medium Cavalry)
Srakir Martikner (Armenian Medium Infantry)
Zrahakir Netadzik (Armenian Armoured Horse-Archers) -E
Nakhararakan Tiknapah (Armenian Noble Infantry) -E
Nakhararakan Aspet (Armenian Noble Cataphracts) -E -H
Khuveshavagan Shavar (Armenian Early Bodyguards) -E -H
Hye Sparapet (Armenian Late Bodyguards) -E -H
Pantodapoi (Hellenic Native Spearmen)
Skuda Fistaeg Fat Aexsdzhytae (Scythian Foot Archers)
Doryphoroi Pontikoi (Pontic Light Spearmen)
Kardaka Arteshtar (Persian Hoplites)
Bydirag Baexdzhyntae (Steppe Riders)
Kartvelebi Dashna-Mebrdzolebi (Georgian Swordsmen)
Skuda Fat Aexsdzhytae (Scythian Horse-Archers)
Toxotai Syriakoi (Syrian Archers) -E
Khuveshavagan (Kinsmen Heavy Cavalry) -E -H

Khuveshavagan (Kinsmen Heavy Cavalry) is not on website but I assure you they are factional (the team must have forgotten to place unit on the site).

Are Syrian Archers elite? If so, do not forget to place an -E next to the unit and reply back please so I know.

Anyone playing Hayasdan should know that any other unit in MP Edu not on this list is a mercenary. They should also note that the Median cavalry that is factional according to the website is actually not even on the MP Edu (i.e. nonexistant in multiplayer games); this makes Median cavalry no issue at all.

Thanks a bunch.

Your pal,
Vartan
I'm going to approve the Kinsmen Heavy Cavalry since Hay gets that Persian Empire reform.


Pontos Factional Troops by Tsidneku

Harmata Drepanephora (Scythed Chariots) -H
Pantodapoi (Hellenic Native Spearmen)
Hoplitai Haploi
Akontistai (Hellenic Skirmishers)
Gund-� Palt� (Eastern Skirmishers)
Sphendonetai (Hellenic Slingers)
Sh�b�n-� Frad�khsh�n� (Eastern Slingers)
Toxotai (Hellenic Archers)
Thanvar� Pay�hdag (Persian Archers)
Pantodapoi Phalangitai (Hellenic Native Phalanx)
Hoplitai
Peltastai (Hellenic Heavy Skirmishers)
Thureophoroi (Hellenic Spearmen)
Klerouchoi Phalangitai (Hellenic Medium Phalanx)
Lonchophoroi Hippeis (Hellenic Medium Cavalry) -H
Misthophoroi Uazali (Mercenary Karian Warband)
Galatikoi Kluddolon (Galatian Shortswordsmen)
Galatikoi Lavotuxri (Galatian Heavy Cavalry) –E-H
Galatikoi Kuarothoroi (Galatian Heavy Spearmen)
Galatikoi Tindanotae (Galatian "Wild Men" Infantry) -E
Anatolikoi Phyletai (Anatolian Hillmen)
Katpatuka Zanteush (Cappadoccian Hillmen)
Katpatuka Asabara (Cappadocian Medium Cavalry)
Nizakahar Ayrudzi (Armenian Skirmisher Cavalry)
Skuda Fistaeg Fat Aexsdzhytae (Scythian Foot Archers)
Skudra Tabari (Scythian Axemen)
Doryphoroi Pontikoi (Pontic Light Spearmen)
Thureopherontes Toxotai (Bosphoran Heavy Archers) -E
Bydirag Baexdzhyntae (Steppe Riders)
Skuda Uaezdaettae (Scythian Noble Cavalry)-E -H
Pontikoi Thorakitai (Pontic Elite Infantry)
Chalkaspidai (Pontic Elite Phalanx) -E
Kh�vesh�vag�n� Sh�hv�r (Pontic Early Bodyguards) –E-H
Pontikoi Strategoi (Pontos Late Bodyguard) – E -H


Carthage

Poeni Citizen Militia - Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim
Carthaginian Citizen Cavalry - Ezrahim Parashim Feenikim
Libyan Spearmen (early) - Aanatim Leebim
Libyan Heavy Spearmen (late) - Aanatim Leebim
Liby-Phoenician Infantry (early) - Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Mookdamim
Liby-Phoenician Heavy Infantry (late) - Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Meshoorianim
Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim (Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry) -E
Parasim Lebiponnim (Liby-Phoenician Cavalry) -E -H
Elite African Infantry - Dorkim Afrikanim Aloophim -E
Elite African Pikeman - Aanatim Afrikanim Aloophim -E
Iberian Assault Infantry - Dorkei Hatkafa -E
Dorkim Kdoshim - (Sacred Band Phalanx) -E
Ha'Abbirim Ha'Qdosim sel Astarte (Sacred Band Cavalry) -E -H
Elephantes Hulaioi Liboukoi (Forest Elephants) -H
Numidian Skirmishers
Qala'im Numidim (Numidian Slingers)
Numidian Cavalry
Kasatim Numidim (Numidian Archers)
Gldgmtk (Numidian Nobles) -E
Iberian Milites
Balearic Light Infantry
Balearic Slingers -E
Iberian Caetratii
Iberian Scutarii
Iberian Curisii
Equites Caetratii
Iberian Lancearii -E -H
Dorkim Shardanim (Sardinian Infantry)


Getai

Komatai (Dacian Skirmishers)
Komatai Sphendonetai (Dacian Slingers)
Mezenai (Dacian Light Cavalry)
Komatai Toxotai (Dacian Archers)
Drapanai (Dacian Shock Infantry)
Komatai Agrianai (Dacian Elite Archers) -E
Komatai Epilektoi (Dacian Elite Skirmishers) -E
Getikoi Hippotoxotai (Dacian Horse Archers)
Komatai Pelekuphoroi (Costobocii Axemen )
Ischyroi Orditon (Elite Dacian Infantry) -E
Getikoi Stratiotai (Dacian Light Phalanx)
Ktistai (Dacian Noble Cavalry) -E
Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai (Dacian Heavy Phalanx)
Tarabostes (Thracian Medium Cavalry)
Phylakes Daoi (Dacian Bodyguards) -E -H
Thraikioi Doryphoroi (Thracian Light Spearmen)
Taxeis Triballoi
Thraikioi Hippeis (Thracian Light Cavalry)
Thraikioi Peltastai (Thracian Peltasts)
Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi (Elite Thracian Infantry) -E
Thrakioi Prodromoi


KH

Hoplitai Haploi (Greek Levy Hoplites)
Akontistai (Hellenic Skirmishers)
Sphendonetai (Hellenic Slingers)
Toxotai (Hellenic Archers)
Hippakontistai (Hellenic Skirmisher Cavalry)
Hoplitai (Greek Classical Hoplites)
Peltastai (Hellenic Heavy Skirmishers) / Thracian Peltastai (There is a EDU bug)
Ekdromoi Hoplitai (Greek Light Hoplites)
Thureophoroi (Hellenic Spearmen)
Thorakitai
Hippeis (Greek Medium Cavalry)
Prodromoi (Successor Medium Cavalry)
Hetairoi Aspidophoroi -E
Iphikratous Hoplitai (Greek Hoplite Phalanx)
Toxotai Kretikoi (Cretan Archers) -E
Hippeis Xystophoroi (Greek Noble Cavalry) -E -H
Koinon Hellenon Phalangitai (Greek Pikemen)
Thorakitai Hoplitai (Greek Heavy Hoplite Phalanx)
Epilektoi Hoplitai -E
Spartiatai Hoplitai (Spartan Hoplites) -E
Sphendonetai Rhodioi (Rhodian Slingers) -E
Somatophylakes Strategou (Greek General) -E


Macedonia

Hoplitai Haploi (Greek Levy Hoplites)
Phalangitai Deuteroi (Hellenic Levy Phalanx)
Akontistai (Hellenic Skirmishers)
Sphendonetai (Hellenic Slingers)
Toxotai (Hellenic Archers)
Hippakontistai (Hellenic Skirmisher Cavalry)
Hoplitai (Greek Classical Hoplites)
Peltastai (Hellenic Heavy Skirmishers)
Thureophoroi (Hellenic Spearmen)
Prodromoi (Successor Medium Cavalry)
Pezhetairoi
Argyraspides (Hellenic Elite Phalanx) -E
Hysteroi Pezhetairoi (Macedonian Reformed Heavy Phalanx)
Hippeis Thessalikoi (Thessalian Heavy Cavalry) -E -H
Lonchophoroi Hippeis (Hellenic Medium Cavalry) -H
Hetairoi Aspidophoroi -E
Hypaspistai -E
Peltastai Makedonikoi (Hellenistic Elite Infantry) -E
Hetairoi (Companion Cavalry) -E -H
Agrianikoi Pelekephoroi (Agrianian Assault Infantry)
Thraikioi Doryphoroi (Thracian Light Spearmen)
Thrakioi Hippeis (Thracian Light Cavalry)
Taxeis Triballoi
Thrakioi Peltastai (Thracian Peltasts)
Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi (Elite Thracian Infantry) -E
Thrakioi Prodromoi


Sweboz

Gaizoz Frije (Germanic Levy Spearmen)
Jugunthiz (Germanic Skirmishers)
Dugunthiz (Germanic Spearmen)
Slaganz (Germanic Club Infantry)
Skutjanz (Germanic Archers)
Herunautoz (Germanic Swordsmen)
Skaduganganz (Germanic Naked Spearmen) -E
Ridanz (Germanic Light Cavalry)
Speutagardaz (Germanic Pikemen)
Thegnoz Drugule (Germanic Heavy Infantry) -E
Marhathegnoz (Germanic Heavy Cavalry) -E -H
Herthaganautoz (Germanic Bodyguard Infantry) -E
Druhtiz Habukisku (Chauci Spearmen)
Druhtiz Herusku (Cherusci Swordsmen)
Jugunthiz Hattisku (Chatti Club Infantry)
Dugunthiz Hattisku (Chatti Spearmen)
Druhtiz Skandzisku (Scandinavian Spearmen)
Gaizoz Alje (Celto-Germanic Spearmen)


Casse

Milnaht
Lugoae
Imannae
Cemmeinarn (Briton Midland Spearmen)
Gaeroas
Gaelaiche
Uirodusios (Celtic Naked Spearmen) -E
Kluddobro (Briton Shortswordsmen)
Botroas
Iaosatae
Sotaroas
Teceitos (Celtic Axemen)
Calawre (Casse Champions)
Drwdae (Druids) -E
Cwmyr (Briton Midlander Heroes)
Kluddargos (Casse Sword Masters)-E
Rycalawre (Casse Late Champions)-E
Myrcharn (Casse Light Cavalry)-E
The Myrcharn (Mur-churn; "Mounted Ones")
Cidainh (Celtic Chariots) -E
Bodyguard Cidainh (Celtic Chariots) -.5E
Pictone Neitos (Pictone "Painted" Swordsmen)
Balroae (Caledonian Skirmishers)
Silurae Birnai (Siluri Warband)
The Silurae Birnai (Sel-oor-ay Bern-ay; Silurii Warband)


Ptolemy
Pantodapoi (Hellenic Native Spearmen)
Akontistai (Hellenic Skirmishers)
Sphendonetai (Hellenic slingers)
Toxotai (Hellenic Archers)
Hippakontistai (Hellenic Skirmisher Cavalry)
Machimoi (Native Egyptian Infantry)
Machimoi Phalangitai (Machimoi Native Phalanx)
Iudaioi Taxeis (Jewish Spearmen)
Peltastai (Hellenic Heavy Skirmishers)
Uazali (Karian Warband)
Thureophoroi (Hellenic Spearmen)
Thorakitai
Klerouchoi Phalangitai (Hellenic Medium Phalanx)
Pezhetairoi
Machimoi Hippeis (Machimoi Light Cavalry)
Lonchophoroi Hippeis (Hellenic Medium Cavalry) -H
Prodromoi (Successor Medium Cavalry)
Elephantes Hulaioi Liboukoi (African Forest Elephants) -H
Galatikoi Kleruchoi (Galatian Heavy Infantry)
Klerouchikon Agema (Ptolemaic Elite Phalanx) -E
Agema Klerouchikon Hippeon (Ptolemaic Heavy Cavalry) -H
Basilikon Agema (Royal Guards) -E
Hetairoi (Companion Cavalry) -E -H
Somatophylakes Strategou -E -H
Toxotai Kretikoi (Cretan Archers) -E
Hoplitai Troglodutikes (Red Sea Hoplites)
Hetairoi Aspidophoroi -E


Saka

Payai Dunai (Saka Foot Archers)
Halstehveyyau (Saka Spearmen)
Duna Asya (Saka Horse-Archers)
Assa-Barai (Saka Riders)
Asya Badarai (Saka Heavy Cavalry) -H
Ysaninu Aysna (Early Saka Nobles) -E
Ysaninu Aysiramj� (Saka Cataphracts) -H
Spatahaura Hadabara (Saka Armored Nobles) -E -H
Yuehzi Noble Horse Archers -E
Sahiya Hadabara (Saka Late Cataphract) -E -H
Hoplitai Indohellenikoi (Indo-Hellenic Medium Infantry)
Peltastai Indohellenikoi (Indo-Greek Peltasts)
Hoplitai Hellenikon (Saka Heavy Hoplites)
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai (Indo-Greek Noble Hoplites) -E
Agema Hellenikon (Indo-Greek Royal Guard) -E
Agema Hippeon Hellenikon (Indo-Hellenic Heavy Cavalry) -E -H
Elephantes Indikoi (Indian Elephants) -H
Elephantes Kataphraktoi Indikoi (Armoured Indian Elephants) -H -E
Hindus Pattisainya (Indian Spearmen)
Hindus Patiyodha (Indian Longbowmen)
Sreni Pattya Yoddaha (Infantry Guild Warriors) -E
Kamboja Asvaka Ksatriya (Indo-Iranian Light Cavalry) -E
Taxilan Agema (Indo-Iranian Heavy cavalry) -H -E


The tournement is scheduled to start July 1st 2009 and last all of July. I will create some new rooms and a battle report thread when that time comes:smash:

GOOD LUCK, HAVE FUN!

[HunGeneral]

I would join the Arche Seleukeia team - however since my comp is out of order and I don't know how soon I can get it working again I'm not sure if I can take part in the tournament in time.:sweatdrop:

[antisocialmunky]

Well, this tournement is going to run for a whole month so people can come and go. Anyways, I'll put you down. :)

[tsidneku]

Sign me up as Pontos. :yes:

I have several quick questions for clarification:

1) Do Heavy Cavalry double as "Elite"? Most, if not all (I haven't checked), 'heavy cavalry' classification ought to be elite units. Elephants do count as cavalry, right?

2) Are those "Max 4 horse-archer" and "Max 6 horse-skirmisher" rules considered sub-sets of the "5 cavalry" rule?
I assume that they aren't -- because you wouldn't have said Max 6 horse-skirmisher/skirmisher if the limit was to 5... unless you were implying that someone might mix horse-based skirmishers with normal skirmishers to come up with the sum of 6? (sorry if the previous sentence is really confusing)

3) When you mentioned the limit on "phalanx" units, I assume that you mean phalangite units with the 'phalanx button' in the game? As opposed to standard Hoplitai Phalanx (the ones that KH is so well known for) that can't actually form up into a 'phalanx' ingame. Please advise.

Thanks for organizing this, antisocialmunky.

[Mithick666]

join me whit the Roman Team.:whip:

[antisocialmunky]

Sign me up as Pontos. :yes:

I have several quick questions for clarification:

1) Do Heavy Cavalry double as "Elite"? Most, if not all (I haven't checked), 'heavy cavalry' classification ought to be elite units. Elephants do count as cavalry, right?

2) Are those "Max 4 horse-archer" and "Max 6 horse-skirmisher" rules considered sub-sets of the "5 cavalry" rule?
I assume that they aren't -- because you wouldn't have said Max 6 horse-skirmisher/skirmisher if the limit was to 5... unless you were implying that someone might mix horse-based skirmishers with normal skirmishers to come up with the sum of 6? (sorry if the previous sentence is really confusing)

3) When you mentioned the limit on "phalanx" units, I assume that you mean phalangite units with the 'phalanx button' in the game? As opposed to standard Hoplitai Phalanx (the ones that KH is so well known for) that can't actually form up into a 'phalanx' ingame. Please advise.

Thanks for organizing this, antisocialmunky.

1)Most heavy cav is elite but not all.

2)And yeah, the max ha+archer/hs+skirmisher limits are toward those respective missile limits just like before. So you can have 3 HA, 1 Archer, 2 other Cav. or something.

3)Phalangites are the only units that count towards the limit.

[Maion Maroneios]

Yeah, I guess I'll join up with the Makedones then.

Maion

[spiritusdilutus]

Put me down for the Romani team.

Please and thank you!

[Fluvius Camillus]

Nice to see this tournament revived, good rules too!

How could you forget I was on the Arche Seleukeia team?:dizzy2:

Is bodyguard included as elite or does everyone have 1 bodyguard excluded from countin?

I hope these rules satisfy people, then we can finally start this!

~Fluvius

[Lestat83]

join me whit the Roman Team.

[mountaingoat]

bunch of romans!

one for getai here :2thumbsup:

there should be a levy or light infantry rule

[Maris]

Hi....sign me as the mighty Getai....thanks

[antisocialmunky]

Nice to see this tournament revived, good rules too!

How could you forget I was on the Arche Seleukeia team?:dizzy2:

Is bodyguard included as elite or does everyone have 1 bodyguard excluded from countin?

I hope these rules satisfy people, then we can finally start this!

~Fluvius

Well so far in ths tournement, we've been counting the general's bodygaurd as elite. No one gets a free general's unit this time around it seems.

Did anyone want to talk about rules or budget? Since I'm giving Getai weapons bonuses and Celts extra elites, I think that 40K is a good place to stay though 35K-36K might still be better. I'm actually leaning towards 36K right now. Anyways, if you're practicing now, can you test one of the proposed rules like elite#, attack upgrade, and the 40K, 36K, or 35K budgets?

[Apázlinemjó]

Add me to Pontos please.

[mountaingoat]

are we going to form teams of some sort(keeping them regional to some extent ... like no romans with sweboz) ?

also is the tournament going to be regional (rome/hellene vs rome/hellene , barb vs barb , steppe vs steppe ) then the top teams from each region ?

[antisocialmunky]

Well, I was thinking it was going to be everyone vs everyone. Since people can check which faction their opponents are playing and the Getai can field steppe armies. The only question would be the Sweboz but I forsee them just spamming pike infantry against steppe.

PS. I also updated steppe rules to prevent people like me from abusing them just to have extra cav by instituting a 10 infantry cap:). Steppe armies need to stay horse heavy or there is no point.

Also updated with some other rules I forgot like announcing elephants.

EDIT:
I've been testing the 1 weapon upgrade rule. Comboed with a chevron, it allows Draps to kill regular hoplties while losing to missile armed celtic hoplites. It allows Bastarnae to break even with Roman Legionaires(they do end up costing more though). I think its pretty fair considering the nakedness of Getic armies and they will evaporate to missiles.

It can get a little broken if they hide in trees.

EDIT2: Oh yeah, I think this was brought up earlier but did we want to make an official map list? Someone suggested that we remove all the broken maps OR we can give each faction a set of maps to use what someone of that faction hosts. Romans would have Italian Maps, Getai get Thracian and Daciaa maps :).

[mountaingoat]

so there is no set team? well it would be nice if we could form teams if this is 3v3 or something ... if we have it without regional teams then that is fine.

[antisocialmunky]

Oh, that's what you mean. Hmm, that wouldn't be a bad idea. We could have regional battles. Italians + Greeks vs Celts, Gauls, Germans or something like that right?

Yeah that'd be cool. I'll go hammer the groups out.

[Apázlinemjó]

The EB Hamachi networks are quite inactive nowadays.

[antisocialmunky]

I haven't seen oyu around at all for about 2 weeks so I suspect that you're just not getting on that often. Many people are gone but currently I see 5 people online.

[antisocialmunky]

So:

Team Rules
-You can play team games with anyone. The number of players ahve to be eaven though.
-Winner all receive a victory to their faction, loses get a loss for each on of their factions.

ATTENTION:
If no one has any suggestions or discussion by Friday:
-Mnai will be set to 36K
-1 weapon upgrade will be allowed for Getai, Sweboz, and Saba (Infantry Only)
-Saba will have no unit limit restrictions
-Gauls and Britons will have 8 elites
... and other rules will be in place.

Please review and gripe.

[Apázlinemjó]

I haven't seen oyu around at all for about 2 weeks so I suspect that you're just not getting on that often. Many people are gone but currently I see 5 people online.

I get on usually, but only for 1 or 2 battles, because my laptop tends to overheat.

40k mnai would be better and if we add Swebóz and Getai to the 8 elite limit then I don't think they will have problem with that.

[Alsatia]

I'll represent the KH...


Rules are fair.

[antisocialmunky]

I get on usually, but only for 1 or 2 battles, because my laptop tends to overheat.

40k mnai would be better and if we add Swebóz and Getai to the 8 elite limit then I don't think they will have problem with that.

I don't know if it'll matter if we give them 8 elites. Their mid-range is so woefully armored that 1/2 their army will die like flies. The weapons upgrade on the other hand costs like 50 mnai and will increase their kill rate noticably. On the other hand, the Getai have very nice profession level armies. So its really a matter of spending 2000ish to kill a cohort or 2700 to kill a cohort.

Do Sweboz even have any elites besides the Germanic heavy infantry?

[Phalanx300]

Do Sweboz even have any elites besides the Germanic heavy infantry?

Ghost Warriors, Animal Warriors and Heavy Cavalry.

[Maion Maroneios]

Do you know what I actually don't understand? Isn't it natural for the Sweboz to die like flies when their soldiers are unarmoured? That's just the nature of their military, I don't really understand why you guys are so obsessed with bringing everyone down to the same level. If you want a "fair" fight with the Sweboz, just make sure you fight a battle in woods or something. Ambushes, anyone? The purpose of this Tournament, as far as I've understood, is just to put all factions together and determine the winner through some restrictions that are the same for all factions. By bringing everyone to the same level, you loose the point of the whole Tournament.

Why give one chevron to factions that have cheap armies? Why give weapon upgrades to factions that have unarmoured troops? And you know who gets the short end of the stick in the end, don't you? I personally don't really care wether I get my arse handed to me (which is most probably going to be the case if I face a chevroned and weapon upgraded army while having less money to spend if the cap is reduced to 35,000), but for Christs' sake try to keep things a bit realistic here. Rules like restricting elites, heavy cavalry and the like is good, I applaud that. Also, don't anyone mention the phalanx exploit because everyone with a considerable amount of sanity knows this is simply a cheat and it's banning is rational to say the least.

Do you want a solution from me? Implement the defender-chooses-his-battleground system. Because I know simply shouting the rule system is wrong is not right and won't get anywere. The only thing I ask you to do, at least, is to simply consider my points and aknowledge that what you're doing is bringing all factions down to the same level. Every faction has its own weaknesses and strong points, that's just the way things are no matter what you want to believe. The Romans didn't beat the Macedonians because they had better quality armies per se (which they did, by the way), but because they were more prepared, has must greater resources and the determination to keep coming back.

But if you still refuse to listen to me and take those fingers out of your ears, I guess there is no other option left that to actually let you see what is going to happen practically if those rules are implemented. And I want to see if you're going to have the guts to admit you were wrong then, because I'm almost certain our victory percentages are going to fall at least above 40%. Just to show you, I'm probably going to fight several battles with some mates with the new rules, and show you the results.

Maion

[Phalanx300]

Do you know what I actually don't understand? Isn't it natural for the Sweboz to die like flies when their soldiers are unarmoured? That's just the nature of their military, I don't really understand why you guys are so obsessed with bringing everyone down to the same level. If you want a "fair" fight with the Sweboz, just make sure you fight a battle in woods or something. Ambushes, anyone? The purpose of this Tournament, as far as I've understood, is just to put all factions together and determine the winner through some restrictions that are the same for all factions. By bringing everyone to the same level, you loose the point of the whole Tournament.

Why give one chevron to factions that have cheap armies? Why give weapon upgrades to factions that have unarmoured troops? And you know who gets the short end of the stick in the end, don't you? I personally don't really care wether I get my arse handed to me (which is most probably going to be the case if I face a chevroned and weapon upgraded army while having less money to spend if the cap is reduced to 35,000), but for Christs' sake try to keep things a bit realistic here. Rules like restricting elites, heavy cavalry and the like is good, I applaud that. Also, don't anyone mention the phalanx exploit because everyone with a considerable amount of sanity knows this is simply a cheat and it's banning is rational to say the least.

Do you want a solution from me? Implement the defender-chooses-his-battleground system. Because I know simply shouting the rule system is wrong is not right and won't get anywere. The only thing I ask you to do, at least, is to simply consider my points and aknowledge that what you're doing is bringing all factions down to the same level. Every faction has its own weaknesses and strong points, that's just the way things are no matter what you want to believe. The Romans didn't beat the Macedonians because they had better quality armies per se (which they did, by the way), but because they were more prepared, has must greater resources and the determination to keep coming back.

But if you still refuse to listen to me and take those fingers out of your ears, I guess there is no other option left that to actually let you see what is going to happen practically if those rules are implemented. And I want to see if you're going to have the guts to admit you were wrong then, because I'm almost certain our victory percentages are going to fall at least above 40%. Just to show you, I'm probably going to fight several battles with some mates with the new rules, and show you the results.

Maion

If they did die like flies then they wouldn't be that much feared by the Celts and Romans now would they?

And Anti is playing a Hellenic faction himself so he knows very well whats he's doing.

[Maion Maroneios]

If they did die like flies then they wouldn't be that much feared by the Celts and Romans now would they?

And Anti is playing a Hellenic faction himself so he knows very well whats he's doing.
Did anyone fight them with an abudant number of javelineers and/or archers on a flat, non-forested terrain in any fight? I believe the fear was due to their ambushes, were they excell.

ASM doesn't play all factions, so he can't have a spherical oppinion on this.

Maion

[Apázlinemjó]

Do you know what I actually don't understand? Isn't it natural for the Sweboz to die like flies when their soldiers are unarmoured? That's just the nature of their military, I don't really understand why you guys are so obsessed with bringing everyone down to the same level. If you want a "fair" fight with the Sweboz, just make sure you fight a battle in woods or something. Ambushes, anyone? The purpose of this Tournament, as far as I've understood, is just to put all factions together and determine the winner through some restrictions that are the same for all factions. By bringing everyone to the same level, you loose the point of the whole Tournament.

Why give one chevron to factions that have cheap armies? Why give weapon upgrades to factions that have unarmoured troops? And you know who gets the short end of the stick in the end, don't you? I personally don't really care wether I get my arse handed to me (which is most probably going to be the case if I face a chevroned and weapon upgraded army while having less money to spend if the cap is reduced to 35,000), but for Christs' sake try to keep things a bit realistic here. Rules like restricting elites, heavy cavalry and the like is good, I applaud that. Also, don't anyone mention the phalanx exploit because everyone with a considerable amount of sanity knows this is simply a cheat and it's banning is rational to say the least.

Do you want a solution from me? Implement the defender-chooses-his-battleground system. Because I know simply shouting the rule system is wrong is not right and won't get anywere. The only thing I ask you to do, at least, is to simply consider my points and aknowledge that what you're doing is bringing all factions down to the same level. Every faction has its own weaknesses and strong points, that's just the way things are no matter what you want to believe. The Romans didn't beat the Macedonians because they had better quality armies per se (which they did, by the way), but because they were more prepared, has must greater resources and the determination to keep coming back.

But if you still refuse to listen to me and take those fingers out of your ears, I guess there is no other option left that to actually let you see what is going to happen practically if those rules are implemented. And I want to see if you're going to have the guts to admit you were wrong then, because I'm almost certain our victory percentages are going to fall at least above 40%. Just to show you, I'm probably going to fight several battles with some mates with the new rules, and show you the results.

Maion

I agree with the first part. The purpose of this tournament was to show the differences of the factions' military weak and strong points.

[darius_d]

Argumentation that barbarians should die like flies would be indeed reasonable - but only if other historical condition is also met - that barbarians are present by sheer numbers on battlefield.
Since it is simply not possible in EB, and actually this is hellens who dominate also numerically - thanks to their big phalanx units - then favoring barbarians in some way is rather out of question.

My thinking now is to keep 40 000 budget - that way barbarians can spend not only for additional elites but also more units can get 1 chevron.


I like most of these rules, but not all. My biggest complain is the way to determine elite(/heavy) when descriptions do not help. But not only.

So for example:

1) Praetorian Cavalry - is it Medium or Heavy?
They throw javelins and skirmish, so apparently they are Medium, according to these rules.
But since Romans are cheap and can afford 1 chevron for most units, then upgraded Praetorian Cav reaches truly elite level in Cav vs Cav battles. They are beaten only by strong elites after long time defence, and can inflict serious damage when charging.
So if they are Medium - I dont like the idea. It means Roman can field up to 5 "medium" but indeed pumped by chevron to heavy/elite units, and still can recruit 6 foot elites.

So maybe cavalry/elephants should not be upgraded.

2) How to determine elite archer/slinger when description do not help?
Or - do we count archers/slingers at all as elites?

---------------------------

Maybe this rule could be helpful for victory conditions:
- when there is 2 game crashes or disconnetions by the same player during a battle, the winner is his opponent.

[Alsatia]

Which Hamachi severs will be used for the tournament?

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah! Debates!


Do you know what I actually don't understand? Isn't it natural for the Sweboz to die like flies when their soldiers are unarmoured? That's just the nature of their military, I don't really understand why you guys are so obsessed with bringing everyone down to the same level. If you want a "fair" fight with the Sweboz, just make sure you fight a battle in woods or something. Ambushes, anyone? The purpose of this Tournament, as far as I've understood, is just to put all factions together and determine the winner through some restrictions that are the same for all factions. By bringing everyone to the same level, you loose the point of the whole Tournament.


I'm not trying to make everyone super balanced atleast I'd like to think that. The main reason for giving the Germans and Getai that weapon upgrade was to preserve their weakness to missiles but allow them to make up for one of their advantages: numbers. Do you think it would be as easy to win if the Germans or Getai decided to bring 30-40 units against you? Their budget and unit costs would allow it BUT they aren't allowed to. How is THAT fair to them? The problem with the tournement is that it was based on the assumption that the game is funnest with 20 unit armies. That is true. Its epic and fun, balanced on the micromanagement front, but its not balanced numbers wise. The best solution would be to use a custom edu that gave them bigger units @ scaled up price.

I mean, it wasn't 16K Greeks against 12K Persians at Gaugamela was it?



Do you want a solution from me? Implement the defender-chooses-his-battleground system. Because I know simply shouting the rule system is wrong is not right and won't get anywere. The only thing I ask you to do, at least, is to simply consider my points and aknowledge that what you're doing is bringing all factions down to the same level. Every faction has its own weaknesses and strong points, that's just the way things are no matter what you want to believe. The Romans didn't beat the Macedonians because they had better quality armies per se (which they did, by the way), but because they were more prepared, has must greater resources and the determination to keep coming back.

This is somewhat already true. The problem is that if we did that, we would have to manage each battle to decide who gets boned by the map. The whole point of this tournement setup was to have as little management as possible. Now its up to the individual players to decide who gets to host and pick the map.

As for chevrons, well. The Romans really have more money than they can spend unless they pick elephants in Polybian every time. Like the Getai, they should be able to mass larger armies(about the same as one with a large phalanx contingent) in game but can't be exploited online. If you want to really be anal retentive about it, pretend all Polybian Romans that fight your Maks are Punic War veterans and its the first Macedonian War. :-p



But if you still refuse to listen to me and take those fingers out of your ears, I guess there is no other option left that to actually let you see what is going to happen practically if those rules are implemented. And I want to see if you're going to have the guts to admit you were wrong then, because I'm almost certain our victory percentages are going to fall at least above 40%. Just to show you, I'm probably going to fight several battles with some mates with the new rules, and show you the results.

Maion

I'm not ignoring you guys. That's why I posted that post this morning to get you guys to shoot back. Go test the modified rules and report back with the results. I want to know if its truely balanced. :2thumbsup: Goes for anyone else who has time.



Argumentation that barbarians should die like flies would be indeed reasonable - but only if other historical condition is also met - that barbarians are present by sheer numbers on battlefield.
Since it is simply not possible in EB, and actually this is hellens who dominate also numerically - thanks to their big phalanx units - then favoring barbarians in some way is rather out of question.

My thinking now is to keep 40 000 budget - that way barbarians can spend not only for additional elites but also more units can get 1 chevron.


I dunno about it. Though you are right, 40K is needed for the Gauls and their extra elites. I guess I'll set it back up there. 36K just seemed to me the best balance for Hellenic factions and their elite/levy %'s.



I like most of these rules, but not all. My biggest complain is the way to determine elite(/heavy) when descriptions do not help. But not only.


Do we really want to make lists? I can do the ones for Rome and Baktria... It might be for the best if we have an official list. Most of the EB vets know what's elite and not by heart so I guess it wouldn't be too hard if everyone pitched in.



Which Hamachi severs will be used for the tournament?


EBOT2 still should have some room. Password EB. The official tournement rooms will open later and I'll boot people at around 6PM (bi)daily to keep them open.

[Knight of Heaven]

1) Praetorian Cavalry - is it Medium or Heavy?
They throw javelins and skirmish, so apparently they are Medium, according to these rules.
But since Romans are cheap and can afford 1 chevron for most units, then upgraded Praetorian Cav reaches truly elite level in Cav vs Cav battles. They are beaten only by strong elites after long time defence, and can inflict serious damage when charging.
So if they are Medium - I dont like the idea. It means Roman can field up to 5 "medium" but indeed pumped by chevron to heavy/elite units, and still can recruit 6 foot elites.

So maybe cavalry/elephants should not be upgraded.

2) How to determine elite archer/slinger when description do not help?
Or - do we count archers/slingers at all as elites?


I belive praetorians were elite, even in cav, it doesnt matter if they trow javelins. historicaly praetorians were a elite troop implemented by Augustus. so.

i have a opinion related to archers and slingers, is they shouldnt be considered elite, i mean archery wasnt a main role in warfare at the time, main exception was steep factions i belive, alltough i belive they shouldnt considered as elite for other factions that are not steepe, it should have numbers restrictions.


I'm not trying to make everyone super balanced atleast I'd like to think that. The main reason for giving the Germans and Getai that weapon upgrade was to preserve their weakness to missiles but allow them to make up for one of their advantages: numbers. Do you think it would be as easy to win if the Germans or Getai decided to bring 30-40 units against you? Their budget and unit costs would allow it BUT they aren't allowed to. How is THAT fair to them? The problem with the tournement is that it was based on the assumption that the game is funnest with 20 unit armies. That is true. Its epic and fun, balanced on the micromanagement front, but its not balanced numbers wise. The best solution would be to use a custom edu that gave them bigger units @ scaled up price.

I mean, it wasn't 16K Greeks against 12K Persians at Gaugamela was it?


I agree with this.

[Flavius_Belisarius]

I would join Arche Seleukia.

Edit.: I already played some Eb online battles and i think i have a good overview of the balance. Barbarains should get in my opinion more men in each company too otherwise they dont can stand against romans and hellens. Roman legionarys are way to cheap, they even defeat phalanx units like agryaspidy in a longer melee. The same is for dismounted pretorians. And the phalanx units of the hellenistic factions arent really a advantage for them because even factions like phartia gets phalanx units (Merchanry). And the elite phalanx units arent hardly stronger than the merchanery one.

[Phalanx300]

Did anyone fight them with an abudant number of javelineers and/or archers on a flat, non-forested terrain in any fight? I believe the fear was due to their ambushes, were they excell.

ASM doesn't play all factions, so he can't have a spherical oppinion on this.

Maion

They applied many tactics, and they did face the Romans and Celts head on in the open, Cimbri for example, treatening Rome and defeating them many times.

You seem to mistake them for the Lusotannan who's main tactic is ambush.

You talked about him putting Hellenes at disadvantage, he's a Hellene himself so knows very well what he's doing. He also was playing as a Roman in the last tourney.

[Maion Maroneios]

...

Maion

[antisocialmunky]

Did anyone fight them with an abudant number of javelineers and/or archers on a flat, non-forested terrain in any fight? I believe the fear was due to their ambushes, were they excell.

ASM doesn't play all factions, so he can't have a spherical oppinion on this.

Maion

Yeah they die horribly if they get strung out. That's why I limited skirmishers. To be honest, mass skirmisher harass isn't that effective since your opponent can just hold until you're out of ammunition.



...

Maion


We could just trash the weapons upgrades, keep the chevrons, give all the N barbarians 8 elites, and allow barb players to quit maps without trees. I think also that the 36K price point is pretty balanced by itself but the barbarians really need an extra something to make up for the fact that they can't mass effectively. Besides, the N barbarians should be able to fight set piece battles to a certain extent. They certainly did many times and relied on mass, shock, and mobility:

-Brennus brought ~150K men into Greece in his campaign.
-Cimbri numbered as many as 200K during their initial migration into Roman lands.
-Gaeasatae numbered around 70K during their expedition in Italy.

You're asking for a double standard: The greeks have the ability to field the pinnicle of Hellenic armies, an Alexandrian Phalanx and supporting troops, while the N barbarians can't create huge masses of levy troops twice the size of the Mediterranian armies... Instead you want them to only be able to field armies that are small and have crap morale. That's like forcing the the Hellens to play at 30K where the Greeks get stomped.

That's not to say that they didn't use smaller armies with a larger professional core or anything like that...

Its too bad that the Getai and Sweboz players aren't around to help us test.

@Phalanx - Can oyu kick all the inactives in EBOT01?

[darius_d]

I don't want to mess more, but maybe one of solution is to limit hellens (and perhaps Romans and Cartaginians) to 18 units, keeping the same budget as all others? This would create numerical advantage for barbs/eastern.


Besides, I hope some people from EB core team follow multiplayer and tournament topics and possibly next EB 1.x update can make a whole difference on multiplayer settings. I encourage all of you guys to make a helpful wishlist, so that this wonderful mod can live long.

[Apázlinemjó]

I don't want to mess more, but maybe one of solution is to limit hellens (and perhaps Romans and Cartaginians) to 18 units, keeping the same budget as all others? This would create numerical advantage for barbs/eastern.




Now that's a good idea. 36K and Hellenes and Romans can use 18 units maximum, that means they don't lose quality, but numbers only, which is quite fair to other 'weaker' factions.

[Maion Maroneios]

Have you ever thought of multiple armies?

Maion

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

Last night a dream give me this strange solution:

MAKE FIXED FORMATIONS:

for example who use romani must do this formations: 1 general,4 triarii, 5 principes, 4 hastati, 2 equites and 2 accensi;

who use makedonia must do : 1 general, 2 hatairoi, 6 phalanx, 2 cretan arc, 4 classical hoplites, 2peltastai

who use lusitani must do: 1 general, 2 iberi lancearii, 2 slingers, 2 ambushers, 4 scutari, 4 caetrati, 2 asturian axmen

ecc

We test this formation before starting tounament... of course

So, in this way, we solve all problems about elites, cheating, balance of faction, mnai, ecc

In this way, we make general more important than faction he choose. And the winner is best general, not best faction (that is hellenic thanks phalanx/hetairoi/cretan combination).

[tsidneku]

Severus, the idea of "set" army compositions was put forth a long time ago. While I personally don't see too much of a problem with that, I think most of the members here agree that army composition and crafting a unique balance to face the right foe is part of the game. Even with your suggestion, unless there was some ridiculous upset, certain factional match-ups would always be one-sided.

[antisocialmunky]

Have you ever thought of multiple armies?

Maion

I've toyed around with the idea. Basically my idea would be that Germans, Getai, Gauls, Lusto, and Casse can optionally choose 2 vs 1(20K + 20K vs 40K) instead of 1 vs 1 other factions but I'm not sure how up to it everyone is. A barb win would count as 0.5 wins per each barb player and 1 loss on the other player.

If people are up for it, that would be the best way to do it.:smash:

I would idealy have to make all the restrictions even numbered (cav @ 4, heavies @ 2, Mercs @ 6).

[vartan]

I've toyed around with the idea. Basically my idea would be that Germans, Getai, Gauls, Lusto, and Casse can optionally choose 2 vs 1(20K + 20K vs 40K) instead of 1 vs 1 other factions but I'm not sure how up to it everyone is. A barb win would count as 0.5 wins per each barb player and 1 loss on the other player.

If people are up for it, that would be the best way to do it.:smash:

I would idealy have to make all the restrictions even numbered (cav @ 4, heavies @ 2, Mercs @ 6).

The restrictions wont have to be even-numbered as long as the units combined fit into said restrictions (e.g. if 5 cav max and if player A has 1 cav in his army, then player B can have up to 4 cav total in his army).

[Alsatia]

Ah... so youre saying that only five cav can be used in total, or am I fooling myself?

I'd rather restrict my own units than shared restrictions to all. How would you know they did not cheat until the game starts?

I have made another EB network at hamachi to even players out between EBOT01 and 02.


Currently, the networks are

EBOT01
EBOT02
EBOT03

Password for all is EB.

[antisocialmunky]

I'm skeptical that some of the people would be able to coordinate effectively. I guess we can give it a shot though and I would prefer shared restricts since it gives the barbs the ability to split their cav/ infantry stc. But that might be too big of a micro advantage.

[Alsatia]

Any advantage is good for them.. they "die like flies".

Because of my foolish noobishness, I have to ask this, what's a run through?

[antisocialmunky]

A run through is when you run your troops through opponent's troops. I have rules relating to that in the fairness section I believe.

I also added team vs team rules and moved the mnai budget back to 36K so people can't have 100% professional armies. It was mainly moved back to 40K because Gauls couldn't afford 8 elites.

Remember this starts July 1st!

Have fun and good luck!

PS. Here's a fun replay that I encourage people to watch since its epic pwnage against a phalanx box:
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=f922cbd2235c36cc07258ee67c679e4ae04e75f6e8ebb871

PPS. I'm going to start posting the unit lists tonight. I was wondering what people would think if I didn't make Triarii elite? Syracusian Hoplites are pretty much the same and they aren't elite.

[Phalanx300]

A run through is when you run your troops through opponent's troops. I have rules relating to that in the fairness section I believe.

I also added team vs team rules and moved the mnai budget back to 36K so people can't have 100% professional armies. It was mainly moved back to 40K because Gauls couldn't afford 8 elites.

Remember this starts July 1st!

Have fun and good luck!

PS. Here's a fun replay that I encourage people to watch since its epic pwnage against a phalanx box:
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=f922cbd2235c36cc07258ee67c679e4ae04e75f6e8ebb871

PPS. I'm going to start posting the unit lists tonight. I was wondering what people would think if I didn't make Triarii elite? Syracusian Hoplites are pretty much the same and they aren't elite.

So its going to be 36k or 40k for this tourney? :sweatdrop:

The difference is that the Triarii were the elite soldiers of the early Roman legion and Syracusians were standard issue soldiers.

Oh, and tests and stuff are over for this year so I should be able to enter the tourney again.

[antisocialmunky]

I'm going to set it at 36K. This forces hellens to decrease the quality of their phalanx of cavalry arms. It also makes Rome slightly less broken so they can't go for elephant and a full cavalry arm without taking the experience off their units. The barbs of course get a little more balanced for 1 vs 1 since they can go for quality without being out qualitied by the hellens.

So I think its a good balance. Feel free to yell at me.

At any rate, what faction do you want to be Phalanx?

[Phalanx300]

I'm going to set it at 36K. This forces hellens to decrease the quality of their phalanx of cavalry arms. It also makes Rome slightly less broken so they can't go for elephant and a full cavalry arm without taking the experience off their units. The barbs of course get a little more balanced for 1 vs 1 since they can go for quality without being out qualitied by the hellens.

So I think its a good balance. Feel free to yell at me.

At any rate, what faction do you want to be Phalanx?

I think I'll go Koinon Hellenon, had enough Sweboz for now. :sweatdrop:


Edit: Who am I kidding, Sweboz it is! :grin:

[Apázlinemjó]

I have to resign from participating in the tournament, because I will be busy with my summer-work in July and I don't think I will have the will to play when I get home wearily. :thumbsdown: Maybe in the next one. :/

[Knight of Heaven]

I have to resign from participating in the tournament, because I will be busy with my summer-work in July and I don't think I will have the will to play when I get home wearily. :thumbsdown: Maybe in the next one. :/

Yeah the same for me, ill have much to do, but i will keep an eye on you guys, how are the battles doing, so keep post online battles, and fun histories :P

[antisocialmunky]

Alright, don't feel bad about ocming back though. I'm going to run this for all of July or whenever everyone is sick of online play.

[Geticus]

...

[Flavius_Belisarius]

I have a few questions. So when i play as Arche Seleukia i can take maximal 5 cavalry? Do i have to join EBOT01 or EBOT02?

[Alsatia]

Read the rules, and you can join any of the below:

EBOT01
EBOT02
EBOT03

Passwords for all three is EB (but EBOT01 is always full......)

[Flavius_Belisarius]

I read the rules several times but was not sure, anyway now im sure.

[Flavius_Belisarius]

I ready the rules but i want to be 100% sure. So its maximal allowed to upgrade ONE expierence and no weapon or armor upgrade ?

[tsidneku]

What about maps? Can we play on any one that both sides agree to? Is there a list? I noticed your addendum about how one can reset if the map starts no a hillside or around closely spaced buildings.

[antisocialmunky]

There is no map list. I can recommend a few good flat one with a few trees.

[JinandJuice]

Aye, since the rules have been changed, I guess I'll have to switch from AS to Roma now. So please sign me up for Roma.

[antisocialmunky]

You weren't registered in this thread :-p. BTW- I've started to post the unit lists. I'm doing it alphabetically, you might want to check it out if you're the 'A' factions or Rome.

[JinandJuice]

Well thx regardless. btw, some small questions:

Can Roma use Cohors Reformata instead of Cohors Imperatoria in the Imperial Reforms? I have a little trouble running the Imperatoria units because they're so detailed. Considering that the 2 units have exactly the same stats, I'd rather have the unit that doesn't lag out my computer when I zoom in. Although historically inaccurate, I think what matters more is player performance, especially when the stats are exactly the same.

Are Sagittari Auxilia and Heavy Auxiliary Infantry considered mercenary/allied units?

And you mentioned heavy gallic cavalry as mercenary units, but are light gallic cavalry merc units as well?

[antisocialmunky]

1)Go for it. They are identical AFAIK. If anything htey have lower morale...
2)Factional like hte EB site
3)If its not on the list, its merc/allied.

[Flavius_Belisarius]

@Antisocialmunky

Could you please anwer my last question which i asked at the very end on the second site of this thread.

[Phalanx300]

And Antisocialmunkey, I edited it a while ago but you can put me in the Sweboz team after all. :dizzy2:

And the Germanic naked fanatics (black dyed ones) are factional troops. (As they are part of a certain Germanic tribe, just as Spartiatai Hoplitai are part of the Koinen Hellenon factional troops)

[antisocialmunky]

@Antisocialmunky

Could you please anwer my last question which i asked at the very end on the second site of this thread.

Yeah, only 1 chevron(experience), no other upgrades. You can check opponent's armies after the battle to make sure.

[Flavius_Belisarius]

Ahh thanks because yesterday i played against agrippa, he used those weapon upgrades and said that they are allowed but maybe i understood him false, his english isnt that well.

Edit.: @Antisocialmunky

Pls add me to macedonia, i got enough of seleucids and their crappy cataphracts :P

[Alexandros]

sign me up too antisocialmunky for Makedonia:D

[Flavius_Belisarius]

@Antisocialmunky

Again i have to request you to check my lest question which ive added with a edit. ^^

[darius_d]

Great list, ASM,

I have one doubt about Syrian Archers (I mentioned that some time ago):
Cohors Sagittariorvm Levantinorvm

their stats are those of Kretikoi Toxotai - who are elite:
- they have a lot of arrows, shooting very long range and effective from their powerful eastern bows. They also wear lorica armor, which makes them very well protected against opposing archers (for example Numidian archers who are quite good are just torn away by them), and on top of that, thanks to their powerful stats (plus armor) they stand well against cavalry so after shooting out all arrows they are decent auxilia infantry. So why they are not elite?

[vartan]

Great list, ASM,

I have one doubt about Syrian Archers (I mentioned that some time ago):
Cohors Sagittariorvm Levantinorvm

their stats are those of Kretikoi Toxotai - who are elite:
- they have a lot of arrows, shooting very long range and effective from their powerful eastern bows. They also wear lorica armor, which makes them very well protected against opposing archers (for example Numidian archers who are quite good are just torn away by them), and on top of that, thanks to their powerful stats (plus armor) they stand well against cavalry so after shooting out all arrows they are decent auxilia infantry. So why they are not elite?

Of course they are elite.

[darius_d]

Of course they are elite.

According to the list - no (as of yet).

[Phalanx300]

Wow, the Makedonians keep streaming in, stand in row for a cudgel headwork. :sweatdrop:

[antisocialmunky]

@Antisocialmunky

Again i have to request you to check my lest question which ive added with a edit. ^^

What the hell is the point of making a new post to direct to an editted post?:laugh4:

[tsidneku]

Sorry in advance if this has been answered already, ASM. :embarassed:

Just to make sure that I have the idea down completely, we can play whomever we like as many times as we like? As long as we post the match replay/results onto the thread? Are there going to be 'match-ups'?

Thanks for all the time and effort that you are putting into organizing this, ASM.

[antisocialmunky]

Just play whoever you want. If they are tired of getting beaten by you, then they should stop playing you.

At the end of this, we'll have a winning faction with the most wins - losses and an individual winner who has the highest individual wins - losses. We can also have a biggest LULZ award, best battle, etc if we want afterwards.

@Guys - I'll make the heavy archers elite since since people seem to have issues with heavy archers. The only ones that will be limitted are the Syrian-type heavily armored archer that sit a rung above the Persian Heavy archer. Basically, archer 1337ness is determined by how well they do in a missile duel.

PS. Vartan PMed me the Hayasdan Unit List. If anyone want to submit a certain unit as a restricted or factional, PM me or post.

I will open the rooms and start the replay report thread tomorrow.

[vartan]

P.S. Jack, my friend, I just wanted to let you know that when you say, "I'm going to approve the Kinsmen Heavy Cavalry since Hay gets that Persian Empire reform," it is actually true that you can recruit Kinsmen heavies before the reform. I've a high enough level factional MIC that lets me recruit them, and I have not done reforms yet.

Your pal,
V

[Alsatia]

The Online Tournament is OPEN!!

I had to say it. It is the 1st of July. (sorry antisocialmunky)

Happy Gaming!

[antisocialmunky]

THE TOURNEMENT HAS STARTED.

I'm going to go open the new thread.

PS. Evocata are no longer considered elite, just high end professional. Other units that aren't elite have this status like Thorakitai and other veteran type units.

[Flavius_Belisarius]

Agrippa still doesnt understand that its not allowed to use sword and shild upgardes. :( I said it him several times, and he also said max 1 chevorn but he still uses that upgrades....

[tsidneku]

I was playing a friendly match with vartan and I had noticed that he used Pantodapoi Phalangitai. While I personally have no problems with that (as it makes sense that Hayasdan ought to be able to levy some native phalangites), the EB website neglects to mention this as a unit under the factional listings. It does, however, list standard Pantodapoi as a factional unit (the spearmen type -- not phalangites).

What say we do about this? Ought we classify them as mercenaries or include them as factional troops? I am leaning towards the latter option.

[darius_d]

THE TOURNEMENT HAS STARTED.

I'm going to go open the new thread.

PS. Evocata are no longer considered elite, just high end professional. Other units that aren't elite have this status like Thorakitai and other veteran type units.


Evocata not elite? :inquisitive: a kind of surprise for me. anyway.

What about this Thorakitai status because I don't get what you mean - is there some limitation for these units or something?

[Alsatia]

Thorakitai were considered elite until now. Since they are elite, you have a limitation on how many you can have.

[antisocialmunky]

@Tsidneku - I'm agreeing with you. Parthia gets them so I'm inclined to add them. Hay is the other Persian/Iranian Successor faction so it would make sense to give them these troops so I will add them.

Thorakitai were not considered elite because they are extraordinarily overpriced for what they can do. So they kinda floated into a nebulous area between elite and professional. However, the fact that the Seleucids transitioned from phalanx to a Thorakitai type army made me classify them as a regular professional unit. Evocata occupy somewhat the same area. They are highly experienced in war but don't have any specialized training etc. They are just high end professionals like the Thorakitai. Besides, they were sometimes called back en masse by their old commanders during the Late Republic to fight the civil wars.

[vartan]

Forgot to add the Pantodapoi Phalangitai to the factional list.

[antisocialmunky]

Its there, use them, have fun.

[tsidneku]

Another addendum, ASM:

I was browsing around my units. The Pontikoi Thorakitai (Pontic Heavy Infantry) should probably be classified as non-elite. They have WORSE stats than the regular Thorakitai that factions like AS have, they also cost slightly less.

There was a typo/mistake in the EB Website that led me to believe that they were elite. They are named "Pontic Heavy Infantry" ingame, and in the stats comparison script that installs with the game, but they are called "Pontic Elite Infantry" on the website. It's the same unit.

Thanks.

[vartan]

Another addendum, ASM:

I was browsing around my units. The Pontikoi Thorakitai (Pontic Heavy Infantry) should probably be classified as non-elite. They have WORSE stats than the regular Thorakitai that factions like AS have, they also cost slightly less.

There was a typo/mistake in the EB Website that led me to believe that they were elite. They are named "Pontic Heavy Infantry" ingame, and in the stats comparison script that installs with the game, but they are called "Pontic Elite Infantry" on the website. It's the same unit.

Thanks.

They are not classified as elite. If you check the page on Pontikoi Thorakitai (http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/index.php?mp=unit&unit=eastern%20infantry%20pontic%20thorakitai&text=thorakitai&ownership=any&class=any&category=any) you will not read anywhere that they are elite.

[antisocialmunky]

K, changed. Though I'm not sure about them not being elite. They seemed to have been used as some sort of assault infantry but again are so mediocre that its hard to justify them being elite like the Hellenic Cataphracts. However unlike Hellenic Cataphracts, Pontus's elite are fairly underwhelming anyways so I'm not sure but I will allow it for hte time being.

@Vartan - How do you get to that?

[vartan]

EB Unit List (http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/)

[Parallel Pain]

Is it too late to sign up?

And what's the upgrade rule?

And do we have to pick a faction and stick to it throughout tournament?

[antisocialmunky]

I'm allowing people to switch around now if they really have decent reason but I'm not going to be allowing very much of it. You can still sign up if you want.

The upgrade rule is that you can have no upgrades except 1 experience. Otherwise the game gets ridiculously imbalanced.

[Parallel Pain]

You know what? I'll be Saba. That way I'll get to laugh at myself when I loose on round 1 :laugh4:

EDIT: On how are who vs who and rounds decided? One battle elimination? Best out of 3 elimination? Everyone play everyone else and winner decided by points? (DEF tournament was Heroic Victory 4 Clear Victory 3 Average Victory 2 Close Victory 1 Close Defeat 0 Average Defeat -1 Clear Defeat -2 Crushing Defeat -3)

[antisocialmunky]

You play people, report the battles by posting a replay in the replay thread then you get your wins and losses tallied.

Saba plays with no unit restricts but the standard 1 experience upgrade rule. So good luck.

[HunGeneral]

My internet connection has become very slow and unrelieably and it might take a while until it gets fixed. Therefore I have to retire from the tournament:embarassed:

Good luck to all participiants! :2thumbsup:

[antisocialmunky]

I'll jsut cross out your name.

Also, I added rules on reforms and steppe armies. You now have to announce before hand. IRL you would have been able to scout the type of army they have.

[Phalanx300]

Also Antisocialmunkey, I think that the Celtic and Germanic naked infantry can be counted as elite units, seeing their stats. :sweatdrop:

Another Germanic unit is the Wargozez which are those Wolf warriors, they are an elite unit as well but they were bands of Germanic mercenaries so I think its probably most Historical to keep seeing them as mercenaries. :2thumbsup:

[Parallel Pain]

Victory Conditions
-If your opponent has no cavalry and makes a phalangite box and you can surround it with your men. You win.
What if the opponent's cavalry has been destroyed, and the box is only like 40% phalanx, or very tough infantry unit like say roman marian legionaries or whatever. What if it's a rectangle? Basically what happens if one side looses all his cavalry and forms a partial-phalangite or non-phalangite box/circle/rectangle as not to expose any flanks. The other side has the box surrounded but has not enough melee power to take it down. But the side in square/circle/rectangle would not break formation. The result is one square/circle/rectangle which is surrounded and neither side are willing to attack
What happens then? (not that it has happened yet, though my game with Alsatia came close, so I just thought just we need to make that clear in case)
And what if the cavalry has not been destroyed, but is at the center of the formation unwilling to come out and both sides ranged troops has ran out of ammunition and still neither side are willing to move?


Also more importantly
We need to make a rule so that one person can only get a certain number of wins from another specific person. Like say 3. So if JinandJuice has already fought and beat me 3 times, he can't fight me anymore.
This rule is so that players (stare at Jin :clown:) don't take advantage of the natural existence of weaker players and just keep fighting them to get wins.
I dont' really care what the number is, but there should be such a rule.

[JinandJuice]

Pain, I asked you specifically if you wanted a ranked match or not, without any pressure whatsoever. You said a variance of whatever/idc. I then asked you if you want to do "1 ranked?", and you said "sure". You had every right to deny my request, but you accepted, and now you appeal for a rule that I can no longer win against you, while you can still win against me?

Besides, I had told you the first time we played, that because you were saba and your willingness to lose, people are going to take advantage of you. You said a variance of I'm fine with that.

[Parallel Pain]

I was joking >.< (see :clown:?)

And it was you who brought it up.

And like I said, I don't care about loosing the tournament. I care about people winning it unfairly. You said so too and told me to be careful.

[JinandJuice]

Oh.
My apologies for being rude, but I still believe that those who feel like they are being beaten should reject match proposals themselves rather than have the rules do it for them.

And yes, it was indeed I who brought it up. I also understand you don't care about losing, but if you care about how I am winning this unfairly, shouldn't you have rejected my match proposal then?

[Parallel Pain]

Na 3 is fine for me. We have a month after all. Even 5 or 6 is probably fine.

But if like ASM keep coming back and beating me 30 times then...

We should be careful not to have our stuff stolen. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a law against stealing.

[JinandJuice]

I think there are laws against stealing because IRL we cannot control whether someone steals from us or not. However, in this case, "thieves" must ask before they "steal", giving the "victims" permission to grant or deny the "theft". First of all, wouldn't the victim actually be an accomplice in the theft, making the victim guilty as well? Secondly, the system we currently have is more similar to pressing charges. We don't have a law where the plaintiff must press charges for assault, but instead they have the choice to not charge at all.

[Parallel Pain]

Well the tobacco/cigarette company did get sued and lost

But I just bring up the issue. Let's just let ASM decide on what to do. It's "his" tournament.

[antisocialmunky]

Eh, the I thought common sense would dictate that people who don't think they can win would stop playing the people that beat them for a while. Otherwise we just run out of people to play. Only about 5 other people are on when I am on so 15 games would be all that I would be able to play.

The bottom line is that if someone keeps beating you, you should really stop playing him... If more poeple ask though, I'll add of limit of ~5.

@Phalanx Box - The Phalangite Box is unfair because phalanxes are almost impossible to break from the front. If however, someone with other sorts of infantry wants to try it. That's fair since you can keep attacking at the same point over and over again and force the box to break.

I guess I should be more clear about what is a phalanx box. A Phalanx Box is a formation where more than 75% of it is made of phalangites or more than 270 degrees of the shape are defended by phalangites.

If you have any questions, post the replay or take a picture and we'll deal with it.

[vartan]

People who don't think they can win would stop playing the people that beat them for a while. Otherwise we just run out of people to play.

Exactly! Amen!

[option]

I'll sign up for this too if possible, using Epeiros.

EDIT: If someone could briefly explain to me the basics of Hamachi, I would be grateful. Also, where's the Epeirote love from the other tournament players?

[antisocialmunky]

Extensive Multiplayer Guide (by Tolg):

This guide is written so that anyone can understand it. Please just ignore the obvious bits.

Make sure that you have a clean install of:
RTW + Patch 1.3 + Patch 1.5
EB 1.1
EB 1.2
The EB 1.2 Fixes
(Installed in this order)
Check if your firewall allows RTW to access the Internet
Download Hamachi
Install Hamachi and read it's tutorial. It only tales ~2 minutes but helps a lot.
a) Create a Hamachi network (press the triangul button at the bottom left of the Hamachi window, select create network, enter the name and a password and hit OK)
b) Join the network that was created by your opponent. (The triangular button again, join network and enter name and pw of the network)
Now it gets tricky:
Cut your main internet connection.
Start EB using the mp .exe and click "Multiplayer" and "Lan Battle"
Minimize your game (Alt + Tab or Alt + Esc)
Reenable your Internet connection
return to the game and do as described in the previous guide (Step 8).
Don't forget to save the replay once you're done!



Read over all the rules, and when you're ready, reply and and I'll add you.

[antisocialmunky]

Okay, a few things:

-I added rules for Casse.
-I also want to open up debate into cavarly rules. Its my feeling that there is a little too much cavalry in the game and I was thinking about reducing the number of heavies down to 4 instead of 5. And instead making it so all general's bodyguards used for the general unit are free units that don't count towards any limits.

Any other ideas would be great also if oyu have them.

[Gabeed]

Unfortunately, I'm currently stuck with EB-BI, as I lent my regular Rome Total War CDs to a friend. So my part in this tournament shall be delayed until I recover the CDs.

[Jebivjetar]

Sign me in, man! Im playing Carthage!

Darius_d: you are not alone anymore! :thumbsup:

[Fluvius Camillus]

Sign me in, man! Im playing Carthage!

Darius_d: you are not alone anymore! :thumbsup:

Ah another one, is this one also willing to be destructed by the Basileus of the glorious Arche Seleukeia?

~Fluvius

[Jebivjetar]

Ah another one, is this one also willing to be destructed by the Basileus of the glorious Arche Seleukeia?

~Fluvius

:furious3::smash::laugh4:

[JinandJuice]

Fluvius, you have insulted me for the last time. I will make you pay for my humiliation...by switching to Arche Seleukeia as well. Farewell fellow Romans, for I find the Kataphractos more intriguing than the cohorts.

And to ASM: I'm not sure I understand. You're proposing that we be limited to 4 cavalry, but bodyguard is not considered cavalry per se. Hence, factions like Makedonia and Arche Seleukeia can still have 5 cavalry technically, the bodyguard just doesn't count as the fifth. Have you considered KH though? KH bodyguards are not cavalry, so KH will have a max of 4, not 5, cavalry. Is this what you're implying? If so, would this be fair?

[antisocialmunky]

Well there would be exceptions made for Sweboz and KH. To be honest, I jsut wanted to get rid of one heavy cavalry option for 2 HC/2Aux

[vartan]

Isn't there a 3 heavy cav limit anyways? There's no way of attaining 4 or 5 heavy cav. Those extra two slots are for horse archers/skirmishers and/or medium/light horse, right?

P.S. It's about time the General is unrestricted.

[antisocialmunky]

Not unless you're steppe. Which brings up 2 other points. I want to talk about allowing factions based in Asia 6 missiles because of historic army composition as well as increasing the infantry limit for steppe armies to 12 from 10 since its quite hard to buy 10 horses.

[naiveharry]

I will be playing EB tournament under the name "Hiero" with the faction Koinon Hellenon .
I am ready to play and on hamachi networks under the name admin-PC.

[vartan]

Dude change your Hamachi nickname to Hiero as well, just go to preferences to change it.

[Phalanx300]

I'm wondering, also thanks to Hiero here :sweatdrop:, maybe we should allow certain units like Syrakousoi Hoplitai as factional units for certain factions? Meaning Syrakousoi Hoplitai would be counted as a Koinen Hellenon factional unit, for those who wish to represent an Syracusian army.:idea2:

[vartan]

I'm wondering, also thanks to Hiero here :sweatdrop:, maybe we should allow certain units like Syrakousoi Hoplitai as factional units for certain factions? Meaning Syrakousoi Hoplitai would be counted as a Koinen Hellenon factional unit, for those who wish to represent an Syracusian army.:idea2:

But Syracuse wasn't part of the Koinon Hellenon of the 3rd century BC IIRC. Wouldn't that make Syrakousai Hoplitai mercs?

[Phalanx300]

But Syracuse wasn't part of the Koinon Hellenon of the 3rd century BC IIRC. Wouldn't that make Syrakousai Hoplitai mercs?

I mean it more in the way that Syracuse was an Greek Poleis as were all the members of the Koinen Hellenon. The best way to represent them would be with the Koinen Hellenon.

The same for those who wish to make a Galatian army, with them being Pontus or another faction which has them.

Maybe if someone wishes to be a certain faction which isn't in EB he has to post it here and we can post the factional units and the like and the faction which would be best to be used? :sweatdrop:

[darius_d]

Sign me in, man! Im playing Carthage!

Darius_d: you are not alone anymore! :thumbsup:

Good to hear, mate! Your reinforcments are right on time, cause I go on short holidays next two weeks (but come back to the tournament before end of July).

I play without using phalanx formation. For fun, history and for sake of difference from popular phalanx/legionaries choice. But for the moment i couldn't beat phalanx with that formation (in official game).
GLHF. I will be around on forums to see how things are going. If you need any advice, send me PM (I won't have access to hamachi).

[Duguntz]

Heeeeeyyy, the sweboz 's lost in the wood, sorry guys not to write anymore, but since I forgot the cables of my laptop in england, it's kinda difficult to come on! plz, if anyone wanna be kind with an unwashed naked fanatic, write me some news about the tournament!!!

[Maion Maroneios]

Welcome back, barbaros! You could always just read about the happening yourself, you know :clown:

Maion

[antisocialmunky]

Well, the Romans are feeding the AS players way too many victories :-p.

Hope you can participate. More is better.

[m0r1d1n]

hi,
i would like to jon the tournament with carthage..i'll be playing under the name moridin.
i'll be on hamachi under the same name...

[Phalanx300]

Ok going to play some matches again, and wow to the number of Arche Seleukeia members. :inquisitive:

[Parallel Pain]

ASM ASM

Agrippa and Spiritus want to complain about the no-recruitment-restriction of saba.

[vartan]

There's nothing to complain about. Saba is always going to be a guerilla-war faction. No complaints about it. You gotta give kudos to the Saba players out there.

[antisocialmunky]

Does anyone really think that Saba without rules is overpowered?

Also adding Ptoly and Saka rules and tweaking heavy cavalry for steppe factions down to 4 so they get only 1 more heavy horse than normal factions.

Other notable rule changes:
-Lonchrophoi = Heavy
-Baktrian Medium = Heavy
-Indo-Iranian Lights = Elite
-Hetairoi Aspidoi = Elite medium cav

[Alsatia]

Does anyone really think that Saba without rules is overpowered?

Also adding Ptoly and Saka rules and tweaking heavy cavalry for steppe factions down to 4 so they get only 1 more heavy horse than normal factions.

Other notable rule changes:
-Lonchrophoi = Heavy
-Baktrian Medium = Heavy
-Indo-Iranian Lights = Elite
-Hetairoi Aspidoi = Elite medium cav

Yes I do. Being beaten by saba with a full imperial legion doesn't really go well. Or do I really suck?

[vartan]

Yes I do. Being beaten by saba with a full imperial legion doesn't really go well. Or do I really suck?

The latter, I'm afraid.

[Parallel Pain]

Admittedly you should've know better than leaving your men in a defensive formation then going off to vacuum your room

[antisocialmunky]

Admittedly you should've know better than leaving your men in a defensive formation then going off to vacuum your room

Pretty much this about all your games.

[Gabeed]

So how do the Lonchophoroi count as heavy cavalry when they are distinctly called "Hellenic Medium Cavalry?"

[tsidneku]

Gabeed: I personally think it's a gray zone. The Lonchophoroi come close (in stats) to some of the 'lighter heavy cavalry'.

Another question for ASM or whomever that can answer this:

I haven't been keeping too close of an eye on the thread discussion. (I learned just yesterday that heavy armoured archers are elite! haha), but aside from the four heavy cavalry addendums to the original rules:

What is the ruling on the "General" cavalry unit? It assume still counts towards one's cavalry limit of 5 (as a normal non-steppe faction).

[antisocialmunky]

The description called them heavy cavalry and similarly Baktrian Mediums are compared favorably to heavy cavalry. Plus they behave similarly to the average heavy cavalry types. I don't think it'll affect things too much, I see the 2 prodromoi and very rarely see 2 lonchrophoi in games I've played where you'd think people would want to use better heavy cavalry.

Oh well, you guys do have the new elite medium cavalry option.

Generals count as heavy cav and elite.

[antisocialmunky]

BTW-I missed one unit. The Liby Phonecian Cavalry is both Heavy and elite, sharing similar characteristics to the other mediums that are now heavy and elite due to the description.

Thanks.

[NeoSpartan]

YO FELLAS!!!!!!! Old EB MP guy here, from the days it 1st became available back in .8x. I have not played in Online in a LONG time though :no:

Sing me up on this B***ch.

I now have some free time to play some EB! I am not sure what my actual times will be, but there is now a lot of people playing online so it should not matter :beam:

Anywho... The faction I plan to play is the AEDUI,

I my hamachi name is 1stNeoSpartan


....now lets get this B**** ON! :boxing:

[antisocialmunky]

Good luck, Casse's pretty touch to beat but I'm not sure how hte barbs will fair with the current rules.

BTW - Since this has become fairly successful this first time around, I'm wondering about possibly doing this regularly. Does anyone know how to petition for a forum or anything like that? We really need one since there are alot of independent threads and such.

I dunno, I was just asked about it the other day.

[The Celtic Viking]

I think I will give this a try as well, but as the Arverni, though there is a risk I might have to abandon it. Until I find out that I do, however, I am in.

A little question, though, regarding the rules: does the "no run-through-rule" apply to chariots as well? AFAIK it was a pretty common tactic to open up enemy formations that way, and IMO they should get an exception for this.

[antisocialmunky]

YEah, that is an exception. Its actually mostly just for infantry vs phalanx.

[NeoSpartan]

I think I will give this a try as well, but as the Arverni, though there is a risk I might have to abandon it. Until I find out that I do, however, I am in.

A little question, though, regarding the rules: does the "no run-through-rule" apply to chariots as well? AFAIK it was a pretty common tactic to open up enemy formations that way, and IMO they should get an exception for this.

hey man! just jump and start fighting :boxing: when u leave then u leave.... And come back again when u can :yes:

[The Celtic Viking]

Thanks, I will do that. Just let me get an EB configured for MP and I'm ready for action.

ASM, I think one of he "rs" in "Arverni" migrated to my nick when you signed me up. ~;)

[antisocialmunky]

Just a few details. The normal Druid unit is now elite(missed it), Cwmyr are not elite anymore, and Milnaht are considered Casse Factional as a replacement for Pictone Neitos.

[NeoSpartan]

Just a few details. The normal Druid unit is now elite(missed it), ....

dammit now I am confused...:help:

Are u talking about Carnute Cingetos? (super expensive elite Aedui druid with the rallying eagle, recruitable in only one Gallic province)

Or the Drwdae (Casse/Aedui/Arverni druid with rallying eagle, but weaker than Carnute, recruitable only in Britania)?

I know u told me Uirodusios are considered elite because of their scare infantry and rallying traits. (But some of you confuse them as druids.)

[antisocialmunky]

The Drwdae are better than Neitos in everyway besides the missile and cost 400 mnai less. Plus they would probably be considered a small warrior group so it would be unrealistic to have an all druid army.

You Gauls have weird costs for things. Honestly. You have ~1600 units that are better than ~2400 units...

[The Celtic Viking]

The Drwdae are better than Neitos in everyway besides the missile and cost 400 mnai less. Plus they would probably be considered a small warrior group so it would be unrealistic to have an all druid army.

You Gauls have weird costs for things. Honestly. You have ~1600 units that are better than ~2400 units...

(Emphasis added.)

That's not true. Besides not having javelins, the Drwdae have less men/unit, are "impetuous" and "trained" rather than "disciplined" and "highly_trained" (like the Neitos are), and the Neitos have a lesser penalty vs elephants (-3 vs -4). The Drwdae may cost less as a unit, but that's because they have fewer men - man for man, the Neitos are actually cheaper.

They've got a higher morale (15 instead of 13), a better shield value (4 instead of 3) and have the command and druid traits, but other than that, the Neitos are either equal or better.

[antisocialmunky]

Okay, I missed the unit size thing. Oh well, the only faction that has them as factionals are Casse and Gabeed requested that since he considered them elite units. They should still be a warrior elite:


Historically, British druids main duty was philosophical, legal, and religious. Warriors of this class did apparently exist though, in small numbers, acting as what were essentially temple guards, and organizers of defense.

like the Sohei from STW.

[The Celtic Viking]

Oh yeah, of course - I agree with you on that point. I was just pointing out that there are more arguments besides the javelins that are in favour of the Neitos. ~:)

[french-legionairy]

i all im new in here ( i am from twcenter forum) i would liketo join the tournament.

do i have first to chose my team? if yes, i would be glad to join the team arche seleukia, my faVORITE FACction

[Jebivjetar]

french-legionairy: welcome to the forum and tournament!
Hope we will meet each other on Hamachi :2thumbsup:

[antisocialmunky]

One more clarification:

Missile units shooting do not count as attacking under the stack rule so do not be stacking missiles ontop troops that are attacking and using that to point blank attack unit with missiles.

[Muzzius]

Hi, i'm new on the forums but EB is awesome so I would likehis tournament.
I'll be joiningwith the Makedonians.

P.s. Are all the battles played with Huge unit sizes? My PC sucks so i'd prefer to use Large.

P.S.s I'm inexperienced be kind to me :embarassed:

[NeoSpartan]

Hi, i'm new oon the forums but EB is awesome so I would likehis tournament.
I'll be joining with the Makedonians.

P.s. Are all the battles played with Huge unit sizes? My PC sucks so i'd prefer to use Large.

P.S.s I'm inexperienced be kind to me :embarassed:

welcome chief,

I can't play in Huge due to my PC being slow too. Just make sure you tell the other guy that you have to play in Large.

[Alsatia]

Most games are large anyway. Only a few 1v1 are huge.

Btw, i'll be away at my Aunty's house for the next few days.

[Muzzius]

What is the importance of turning my main internet connection off before I run EB multiplayer, is it really necessary to do it every time?

[Jebivjetar]

No it is not. I don't do that and it works just fine.

[antisocialmunky]

That was from a old verison of Hamachi. Post the faction you want to use to sign up.

Also, would anyone wnat to make an IRC room and not chat via Hamachi, only play games on Hamachi(players for a game create a temporary room and poeple join to play the game) so we can mass chat easier?

[Apázlinemjó]

That was from a old verison of Hamachi. Post the faction you want to use to sign up.

Also, would anyone wnat to make an IRC room and not chat via Hamachi, only play games on Hamachi(players for a game create a temporary room and poeple join to play the game) so we can mass chat easier?

Or an X-fire clan/guild thing.

[Sir Karati]

Hi men, can i take part at the tournament? I know... it will end very soon but i had some problems at the beginning of july :oops:

[NeoSpartan]

start fighting :yes: and ask questions later

[antisocialmunky]

I need a faction, Karati.

[Sir Karati]

I need a faction, Karati.

Makedonia :sweatdrop:

[antisocialmunky]

New Rule: No moving cavalry through phalanx. Not only can your cavalry take a slight amount of damage running through your own phalanx, but it is both unrealistic and exploitive in a cav fight. The enemy cavalry will chase your cav through the phalanx and die in droves. This rule also includes the 'phalanx' trap where you run your cavalry through a phalanx without phalanx mode on and then turn it on after the enemy cavalry are running through your phlanx. SO NO RUNNING THROUGH YOUR PHALANX WITH YOUR CAVALRY WHETHER OR NOT PHALANX MODE IS ON OR OFF.

While perfect micromanagement will negate this, it is still rather unsporting since the game AI doesn't recognize phalanx pikes as enemy untis and engage. Instead they will try to run through the phalanx.

[tsidneku]

asm, while I agree that running your cavalry through your own phalanx is unrealistic, I don't think it should be excepted as a rule. Such is a limitation on the EB engine and if one were to try to restrict everything to strict true realism, many other rules need to be implemented as well.

Just off the top of my head, some examples are:

One shouldn't be able to flip a phalanx (or even an entire formation of any sort of troop) onto an incoming cavalry charge.

Archers shouldn't be able to huddle and stack behind a phalangite line as protection (it ought to fuck up their own firing arch).

One shouldn't be able to halt a cavalry charge at maximum speed after they have been committed to the charge and are only five feet away from the target - the sheer impetus and momentum of the cavalry wouldn't allow that.

We, as players, ought to be able to counter it via micromanagement. It ought to come down to game of skill in the end. Most of the time when I am defeated, I am confident that it was not only out of army composition, but that I was genuinely outplayed. I, personally, shan't blame regulations or game mechanics when I am outplayed; regardless of how angry I am.

[Apázlinemjó]

I agree with ASM here, running through a phalanx is well... you know. The other problem is when someone places his units on top of eachother...that's just duh.

[antisocialmunky]

asm, while I agree that running your cavalry through your own phalanx is unrealistic, I don't think it should be excepted as a rule. Such is a limitation on the EB engine and if one were to try to restrict everything to strict true realism, many other rules need to be implemented as well.

Just off the top of my head, some examples are:

One shouldn't be able to flip a phalanx (or even an entire formation of any sort of troop) onto an incoming cavalry charge.

Archers shouldn't be able to huddle and stack behind a phalangite line as protection (it ought to fuck up their own firing arch).

One shouldn't be able to halt a cavalry charge at maximum speed after they have been committed to the charge and are only five feet away from the target - the sheer impetus and momentum of the cavalry wouldn't allow that.

We, as players, ought to be able to counter it via micromanagement. It ought to come down to game of skill in the end. Most of the time when I am defeated, I am confident that it was not only out of army composition, but that I was genuinely outplayed. I, personally, shan't blame regulations or game mechanics when I am outplayed; regardless of how angry I am.

Its not realistic and it is rather iritating if you're playing steppe where you're trying to maneuver everything and the AI is doing really annoying things and the opponent can attack your cavalry and drag them through phalanxes. The game also discourages this since phalanxes reflect both friendly and enemy charge values for cavalry running through the phalanx.

Just because the game allows it doesn't mean you should be able to do it.

Also:
-Archers wouldn't have problems unless they were really close.
-Count it as a mock charge, they would just turn in real life.
-Infantry can withdraw through phalanx since they would withdraw and deploy through lines between each phalanx block which can't be depicted in RTW.

[vartan]

Also:
-Archers wouldn't have problems unless they were really close.
-Count it as a mock charge, they would just turn in real life.
-Infantry can withdraw through phalanx since they would withdraw and deploy through lines between each phalanx block which can't be depicted in RTW.

I agree, especially with regard to the phalanx block column-gaps for infantry withdrawls.

[Apázlinemjó]

And if you have your units in loose formation then you could do the same as with a phalanx, nope? I mean the running through thing.

Btw is the July tourney over now?

[vartan]

And if you have your units in loose formation then you could do the same as with a phalanx, nope? I mean the running through thing.

Btw is the July tourney over now?

Of course it's over. Buy a calendar.

Phalangites do not go loose, but to facilitate withdrawals you'd need to dis-activate phalanx, loosen up, withdraw, and reengage phalanx.

[antisocialmunky]

Goes til August 1st(today).

Yeah, something like that. The reason why you can withdraw through other troops is that phalanx does 5 ranks of 17+8 damage to horses with a super fast attack. Nothing else can do that.

EDIT: I added phalanx in loose exception. I also added an exception for running through light infantry since its pretty much unavoidable with light infantry.

[Paul D]

Hello. I am here to represent Epirus or Lusotana(Have not made a complete decision- I'm still experimenting with different armies as Lusotana) in this fine competitive multiplayer tournament.

I'm sure at least half of you have seen me around. My confirmation email to allow me to post took 3 days to process, apparently.

[Apázlinemjó]

Of course it's over. Buy a calendar.

Phalangites do not go loose, but to facilitate withdrawals you'd need to dis-activate phalanx, loosen up, withdraw, and reengage phalanx.

Don't need to bash, ok, thanks, bye.

[Paul D]

For the next tourney, I think we need to edit the EDU so roman troops are more expensive. I mean, the Roman units are only cheaper because in Campaign it was the only way to represent rome's ability to levy large armies in a hurry. In Multiplayer, they're just way too powerful for their price.

Seriously, Polybian Princepes have 13 morale, 4 damage AP javelins, 11 attack, and 24 defense, and cost around 1,185.

Anybody else spends 1,185 on infantry? They get some high end skirmishers, at best some horrible light infantry. I mean come on, those Princepes cost less than Peltastai.

[Apázlinemjó]

I don't know, if we check the latest scores, Romani players didn't do well even with their low priced heavy infantries.

[NeoSpartan]

I don't know, if we check the latest scores, Romani players didn't do well even with their low priced heavy infantries.

a BIG part of the reason was the limits on the numbers of Elites (6total).

So Polybian Romani could not throw out armies of Triarii + Pedites Extraordinarii + Eqvites Extraordinarii only.

...also I am not aware if Romani had specific rules but the 2or3 Polybian Romani armies I've faced have all filed Hestati. (I also fielded Hestati when I fought with Polybians recently).

On the other hand, once the army is selected the Romani players usually end up with an extra $2000-$1000 in their pocket. Whereas the factions I know well (KH, Aedui/Arverni/Casse, Luso, AS/Ptol/Mak/Epiros/Backtria, Carthege, Pontus) don't end up with such a balance unless the player wants to.

This remaining balance, however, has not raised any issues/compaints.

[moonburn]

perhaps one could create a lather of minimum games where one could save 80% of the saved gold from one batle to the other ?? or even save up 1-6 units form the previous batles

that would be the blast :oops: so you never tweaked your army much and could always save up for some oliphants

[antisocialmunky]

a BIG part of the reason was the limits on the numbers of Elites (6total).

So Polybian Romani could not throw out armies of Triarii + Pedites Extraordinarii + Eqvites Extraordinarii only.

...also I am not aware if Romani had specific rules but the 2or3 Polybian Romani armies I've faced have all filed Hestati. (I also fielded Hestati when I fought with Polybians recently).

On the other hand, once the army is selected the Romani players usually end up with an extra $2000-$1000 in their pocket. Whereas the factions I know well (KH, Aedui/Arverni/Casse, Luso, AS/Ptol/Mak/Epiros/Backtria, Carthege, Pontus) don't end up with such a balance unless the player wants to.

This remaining balance, however, has not raised any issues/compaints.

The reason why Rome didn't do as well was that Romans don't have good anti-cav/ap light infantry. Despite the fact that they can chevron up their whole army, most Roman players don't know how to deal with cataphracts effectively.:no:

[JinandJuice]

most Roman players don't know how to deal with cataphracts effectively.:no:

Roman players can't deal with cataphracts effectively.

[Paul D]

...also I am not aware if Romani had specific rules but the 2or3 Polybian Romani armies I've faced have all filed Hestati. (I also fielded Hestati when I fought with Polybians recently).
.


well given princepes only cost 119 more, it's actually stupid to get hastati. :P

[antisocialmunky]

Roman players can't deal with cataphracts effectively.

I already said that they aren't equipped to deal with cataphracts but most of the Romans I've played against don't know how to deal with cataphracts/heavy cavalry period.

Its not that Rome can't deal with cataphracts, its just the combination of being not equipped well for cataphracts AND not knowing how to fight them. That and taking Post-Marian armies instead of the Camillian/Polybian armies since the Marians and Imperials are completely crap vs cataphracts.

As in cataphracts can sit in melee and beat Marians and beyond quite handily. It would be nice if they got a defense bonus against cav since they did use the heavier Pila against cavalry charges when they were forced to.

I mean, its just pathetic really.

[JinandJuice]

I mean, its just pathetic really.

Tell me about it. Fluvius Camillus's frontal cataphract charges haunt me to this day.

[Geticus]

I wager triarii, samnite medium spearmen, cohortes validum auxiliarum could all be used with better effect vs. cataphracts/ extra heavy cavalry when used more proactively. I watched some match where ACS was using numidian skirmishers and effectively chasing off cataphracts with them LOL, bottom line Roman players use defensive fighting passive lines too much which cats/hetairoi eat for lunch, tie them up with lighter faster cav and wear down their endurance, as play evolves better anti-heavy cavalry tactics (not passive lines) should become more widespread.

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

I think only one thing: factions with katapractoi/extra heavy cav are really more easy to play.
After many friendly battles, I haven t already lost one battle in mp playing as Arche Seleucheia.
I think catapract aren t unassailable by romans: but if there is 2 players with equal skill,sure that the winner is who can deploy catapract of course.
Use romani isn t so easy... yeah, romani have good morale and good melee infantry, but those extremely heavy cav are really deadly weapon and romans cannot take it.
Plus... the 4 romans reforms give to romani a deficit that many other factions haven t.
There is many army reforms in other factions, but this no count in tournament rules.
If i take makedonia, for example, i haven t any period/reform limitation, so i can choose all of unit i see.
For this reasons, i want not take romani in next tourney...:no::no::no:
Probably, I ll take an hellenic faction for have a bit chance to win the tourney.:sweatdrop:

However this rules is good thing, nothing else to say.

[darius_d]

I already said that they aren't equipped to deal with cataphracts but most of the Romans I've played against don't know how to deal with cataphracts/heavy cavalry period.

Its not that Rome can't deal with cataphracts, its just the combination of being not equipped well for cataphracts AND not knowing how to fight them. That and taking Post-Marian armies instead of the Camillian/Polybian armies since the Marians and Imperials are completely crap vs cataphracts.

As in cataphracts can sit in melee and beat Marians and beyond quite handily. It would be nice if they got a defense bonus against cav since they did use the heavier Pila against cavalry charges when they were forced to.

I mean, its just pathetic really.

Knowledge how to play is indeed a big difference between MP and SP battles. No wonder people without MP experience have more problems.

Some MP players (ASM namely you, for example) have a huge knowledge about how RTW engine deals with units behaviour in battle, depending their statsm.
Notably, how to counter certain types of units - phalanx, cataphtracts, elephants, etc.

Maybe it would be not bad idea to make a kind of guides to share certain basic knowledge. I mean a kind of general battle guides (there are just campaign guides and scarce battle guides like about cavalry charge by Ibrahim). Not really now, if you ask me.

[antisocialmunky]

Spearmans are not effective since they are only a deterent and immobile. Samnites, Lucanians, and Illyrian Coastal Levies(AP) are the best counter.

[NeoSpartan]

The reason why Rome didn't do as well was that Romans don't have good anti-cav/ap light infantry. Despite the fact that they can chevron up their whole army, most Roman players don't know how to deal with cataphracts effectively.:no:

The problem is that Roman players use their armies like a Successor. They treat legions like phalanx, leave them in Guard Mode and let the enemy Tire against them. Every roman player that I played moves the same way:
-Making a solid line of legionaries in Guard Mode and letting the enemy fight. If the enemy flanks, then move legions to cover the flanks by making a new solid line in Guard Mode.


The problem is that Legions are not phalanxes, and that type of defensive gameplay does not go well for sword army, with decent (not great) cavalry.
-------------------

Also.... no infantry unit can stand up and "brace for a Cata/Hetaerio charge". That 40+ Charge is devastating. Even if you put an elite infantry, you will be receiving too many casualties for the $$ you paid in that charge.

What I like to do is keep Catas at bay while I scare/kill the infantry.

Also.. I prefer to send AP guys at Catas, axes/flax/cavalry spears (no 2ndary weapon, unless ur cavalry's secondary weapon is AP... like Saka’s pick wielding cavalry :skull:)

--------------------



... I haven t already lost one battle in mp playing as Arche Seleucheia

Well... you haven't played me yet :whip:

[JinandJuice]

What I like to do is keep Catas at bay while I scare/kill the infantry.

And how exactly do you do that?


Also.. I prefer to send AP guys at Catas
I don't think romans have many AP units, let alone any. Care to shed some light?

[Alsatia]

I don't think romans have many AP units, let alone any. Care to shed some light?

Only their Javelins are AP.

[antisocialmunky]

Illyrians... Pedites... Equites Extraordinarii... Numidian Archers... Really that's it. So I could see someone chevron Illyrians or Numidians to deal with katanks.

[Alsatia]

Who is going to organise the next tournament?

If nobody wants to, I would like to.:beam::beam:

Btw, I made my own siggy for my end of the stick.....
For a touch of humour (or humiliation)

[Apázlinemjó]

Who is going to organise the next tournament?

If nobody wants to, I would like to.:beam::beam:

Btw, I made my own siggy for my end of the stick.....
For a touch of humour (or humiliation)


If I'm right, then Gabeed and ASM are on it, anyways, nice signature. :P

[NeoSpartan]

And how exactly do you do that?
....


remember last night 1v1 (not the 2v2)? thats how. :beam:



.....

I don't think romans have many AP units, let alone any. Care to shed some light?

With Polybians I have a few options... as Roman Marian, I really like Antesignani (elite spearmen) and the Eqvites Hispanorvm have AP swords, and Eqvites Gallorvm have AP lances.... as Imperial Rome then I am stuck with auxiliaries and Ala Imperatoria with their long swords.


the trick is:
-don't send 1 or 2 guys after catas... and don't let your guys run too far away from the rest of the army.


However I need to try this out with Romani... :shame: