Immigration issues(part 2)...

[Kadagar_AV]

Now, since a similar thread got completely de-railed, including moderators I might add Really Papewaio, why did you get into plumbing?, I figured we could start a new thread more directed towards, well, numbers, figures, claims backed up by sources?


So, I will fire away with these questions:

1. A Swedish minister of immigration claimed Sweden need immigrants economicly... I, for one, claim Sweden is IRL losing a/an... Hmmm... How do I say this in a way not to get an infraction?

I'll give it a shot: "A having-a-dump-load of money letting this immigrant tsunami hit our country".

Now... If anyone would participate to play the immigrant game, please do remember you have to back up all arguments and figures as to why Sweden is GAINING from immigrants with sources (personal guess, this topic wont be popular in the backroom).

I can even take it one step further to be more international: If anyone can show claims as to why accepting third world immigrants fresh out from a warzone into a civilized country is good... Then bring it ON for discussion :)

2. Let's settle "1" first, shall we?

[Beskar]

Taxes.

Ageing population fromt he boom years causing a disproportionate aged society where the newer generations can't support the old, immigrants contribute via taxes, thus paying for the pensions and benefits that the Swedish population receive.

Source: Common-Held Knowledge and Logical Deduction.

[Kadagar_AV]

Taxes.

Ageing population fromt he boom years causing a disproportionate aged society where the newer generations can't support the old, immigrants contribute via taxes, thus paying for the pensions and benefits that the Swedish population receive.

Source: Common-Held Knowledge and Logical Deduction.

Now what did we say about the sources? (will add another "?" for good measure)

I am still strugling to understand how a bunch of analphabetic sheepheaders, from whatever arabian country, will contributy to the well being of swedish senior citizens?

[Fragony]

Taxes.


They don't bring money they cost money.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Well, you Europeans are going to have to import people from somewhere since you don't breed anymore.

I suggest Americans. They'll do anything for healthcare.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I am still strugling to understand how a bunch of analphabetic sheepheaders, from whatever arabian country, will contributy to the well being of swedish senior citizens?

Ironic post of the month. :laugh4:

[Askthepizzaguy]

I agree. I would like some healthcare. However, I'm trying to import the idea, not emigrate to somewhere cold.

[Fragony]

Well, you Europeans are going to have to import people from somewhere since you don't breed anymore.

I suggest Americans. They'll do anything for healthcare.

It's normal birthrates drop, it's a sign of wealth. But I guess we will just have to pay for the kids of people who are useless to our economy growing children that are useless to our economy, even if they finish their education which they don't, they still graduate for what is the absolute lowest we have to offer, what we used to call mentally challenged. We have people here who wouldn't be able to, even if they wanted to. and there is no way out for them, whatever we give to help them out they will be pulled back, they belong in another time, and another place. They are perfectly equipped to live in the desert and it should have been like that. But they are here and we can't let them starve, and that is very very expensive.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

You can argue that you need different immigrants, but I don't think you can say that you don't need them at all.

If you're looking for an IT student who knows a little web programming and a little C++ but is willing to learn more on the job (while getting a nice spot of welfare state) pm me.

lol

[Fragony]

You can argue that you need different immigrants, but I don't think you can say that you don't need them at all.


Sure, it's already perfectly possible for a company to arrange a visa for a useful person. We don't need to grow them, the payoff so very very poor.

[Tribesman]

1. A Swedish minister of immigration claimed Sweden need immigrants economicly...
Sounds like Enoch Powell, he recognised the neccesity of immigration for the economy.


Really Papewaio, why did you get into plumbing?


Maybe because it made more sense that going over that crazy fjordman bollox again.


They don't bring money they cost money.
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:


Ironic post of the month.
Be kind Banquo , help him with his words , he must be an immigrant


Then bring it ON
Oh Hadagar you sound so masterful, so certain , you sound....errrrr....just like George Bush

[Fragony]

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:


The average immigrant family costs the taxpayer 230.000 euro, those are official numbers. The benefits of the fruits of their labour have been included in this sum. That would mean that this multimadness have costed is about 100.000.000.000 so far, and that is just the money it costs to feed them.

[Tribesman]

those are official numbers
Post the actual official numbers.
BTW Frag where does your average Dutch immigrant come from?

[Fragony]

Post the actual official numbers.

Why would I, you can't see them.

AdrianII buddy, insert comfirmation [here]

edit: these numbers are about non-western immigrants, made by the 'Centraal Planbureau'

http://www.cbs.nl/nl-NL/menu/home/default.htm

[Tribesman]

AdrianII buddy, insert comfirmation [here]
I really hate to remind you Frag , but when you tried that in the last topic you got pretty savaged and then threw a little fit about it.:yes:

[Adrian II]

Why would I, you can't see them.

AdrianII buddy, insert comfirmation [here]I'm mot going to comfirm amything, bummy. :bucktooth:

We've been there, done that, and I've had it up to here with this nonsense. Why don't you start a thread about abortion for a change?

[Fragony]

I'm mot going to comfirm amything, bummy. :bucktooth:

We've been there, done that, and I've had it up to here with this nonsense. Why don't you start a thread about abortion for a change?

See Tribes. Fragony is spot on.

I really hate to remind you Frag , but when you tried that in the last topic you got pretty savaged and then threw a little fit about it.

Naughty as he is he had the topic closed, don't ask me how, but he did. I wasn't exactly asking for the Swedish immigration statistics he provided. Before the topic was closed.

[Furunculus]

Taxes.

Ageing population fromt he boom years causing a disproportionate aged society where the newer generations can't support the old, immigrants contribute via taxes, thus paying for the pensions and benefits that the Swedish population receive.

Source: Common-Held Knowledge and Logical Deduction.

wouldn't it be better to take educated immigrants who will contribute LOTS of taxes to the host country, and not compete with the most disadvantaged for jobs in the host country? people who by their very education, and possibly their westernised upbringing, will find it easy to integrate into the host society?

remember, a countries first duty is to the welfare of ITS people, not immigrants.

[Andres]

1) Which timeframe are we supposed to take into account? Last year, the past 10 years or 50 years of immigration?
2) Do we only have to take into account the present day situation, or are predictions about the net gain of e.g. the immigrants that entered the country the last 5 years within 50 years ok?
3) If we cannot convince you that immigrants do add value to your country, then what do you propose to keep them out? And what are you going to do with the immigrants already in your country? In short: assuming you are right, what is your solution for the problem?

[Tribesman]

See Tribes. Fragony is spot on.

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
So you have reading problems again Frag:yes:

Now on to these figures of yours.
They say that the vast majority of immigrants work and that even more are entering the workforce.
They also state that the vast majority of immigrants are not on benefits.
So that puts paid to your "average immigrant" nonsense.
So on to your "non-western immigrants"...oh it says the same there too.
You really do have a reading problem don't you:yes:
Perhaps you should follow Adrians advice and try an abortion topic instead as your blindness makes it too easy to rip your posts apart when it comes to immigration.


wouldn't it be better to take educated immigrants who will contribute LOTS of taxes to the host country
Doesn't your government say your current immigrants bring a net reciept of 2.4 billion to the treasury

[Fragony]

In short: assuming you are right, what is your solution for the problem?

Let's start by containing the problem, a full immigration stop. After that, I have no idea, we will just have to make the best out of it.

Now on to these figures of yours.
They say that the vast majority of immigrants work and that even more are entering the workforce.
They also state that the vast majority of immigrants are not on benefits.
So that puts paid to your "average immigrant" nonsense.
So on to your "non-western immigrants"...oh it says the same there too.
You really do have a reading problem don't you
Perhaps you should follow Adrians advice and try an abortion topic instead as your blindness makes it too easy to rip your posts apart when it comes to immigration.

Not my figures, tear apart the CBS instead, knowing the CBS they will be grateful.

[Andres]

Let's start by containing the problem, a full immigration stop. After that, I have no idea, we will just have to make the best out of it.

And how will you organise this "full immigration stop" in concreto?

[Furunculus]

Doesn't your government say your current immigrants bring a net reciept of 2.4 billion to the treasury

not according to a report from the Lords Economic Affairs Committee:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3656171.ece

[Tribesman]

Not my figures, tear apart the CBS instead
Well of course they are not your figures , as your figures are mythical.
If they were indeed your figures in the link then they would say what you claimed.
As was said in the other topic

what you say makes no sense at all

[Fragony]

And how will you organise this "full immigration stop" in concreto?

Simply by not allowing it? And what is here can stay here, and hen we can start treating them like people instead of a project. Why does nobody ever consider the cruelty of false promises. What the :daisy: do these lefties expect from these people, that they suddenly can function in a society that is a few centuries ahead?

If they were indeed your figures in the link then they would say what you claimed.
As was said in the other topic

I am taking the time to respond, I however am not going to take the time to validate my claim because I already know you will ignore it. It's all yours, don't spend it on candy, doesn't really matter what you think anyway my goldenboy's political prosecution had exactly the effect I said it would have, we are the biggest party now, step aside.

[Tribesman]

not according to a report from the Lords Economic Affairs Committee:

So you have the Lords saying one thing and the Home Office and Treasury saying another


In the UK, Home Office research suggests that immigrants pay £2.5bn more in taxes than they take in benefits.

And the Treasury estimates that the economic growth rate has been boosted by a quarter-point because of immigration.

[Andres]

Sorry, it's in Dutch.

Immigration is good for Belgium. (http://www.nieuwsblad.be/Article/Detail.aspx?articleID=b304911060301)



Immigratie is goed voor België

BRUSSEL - (Belga) Het Belgisch nationaal inkomen stijgt als gevolg van de immigratie. Dat blijkt uit een studie van ING, zo schrijft L'Echo woensdag. Het nationaal inkomen van de hele Europese Unie zal volgens ING door de immigratie stijgen met 12,18 miljard euro, waarvan 9,4 miljard euro in de eurozone.

Voor België rekent ING op een gemiddelde stijging van het nationaal inkomen met 100 miljoen euro. Indien men de toekomst zeer optimistisch bekijkt, kan dat cijfer zelfs stijgen tot 560 miljoen euro. Hoewel de economische impact van de immigratie positief is, blijven de economische voordelen beperkt. Anders gezegd kan de immigratie niet aanzien worden als een wondermiddel voor onze economie, aldus nog ING. (lim)


Crappy translation:



Immigration causes the Belgian national income to increase. This results from a study made by ING. National income of the EU will increase with 12,18 billion euro (where from 9,4 billion in the Euro zone) due to immigration, according to ING.
For Belgium, ING counts on an increase of the national income with 100 million euro. The most optimistic models even predict an increase with 560 million euro. Allthough the economic impact of immigration is positive, the advantages are limited. Immigration should not be seen as a miraculous cure for our economy, says ING.


Critical note:
- the fact that the national income increases, does not necessarily mean that the income per capita increases. In other words: you have more income, but you also have more people. I'm not very familiar with statistics, but does an increase of the national income automatically implies an increase in welfare per capita?

But at first sight, saying that "immigrants cost us money and don't give any economic benefits" seems not entirely true.

[Furunculus]

So you have the Lords saying one thing and the Home Office and Treasury saying another

maybe that discrepancy is because the HO/T puts it in the limited terms of benefits claimed, which neglects totally the extra cost-burden of immigrants use of public facilities?

[HoreTore]

They don't bring money they cost money.

Wrong. (http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article2836877.ece)

Also, Frags, you think you're cheap...?

[Hosakawa Tito]

Think of all the potential new desperate housewives seeking excitement and adventure at the ski lodge.

[Fragony]

Wrong. (http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article2836877.ece)

no, I am not. Tell me, how would immigrants be of any use to us when all but a few are too busy having honor in the local teahouse.

[HoreTore]

no, I am not. Tell me, how would immigrants be of any use to us when all but a few are too busy having honor in the local teahouse.

I provided a source for that one ~:)

You did not.... Hmmm....

[Fragony]

You did not.... Hmmm....

Learn Norwegian in the proces

no

[Andres]

no, I am not. Tell me, how would immigrants be of any use to us when all but a few are too busy having honor in the local teahouse.

Most immigrants in Belgium come from the Netherlands and France; not exactly tea house audience.

So, when you said "full immigration stop", does that include immigrants from the EU? Or are you going to limit it to a certain group of immigrants? If so, describe that group.

[Fragony]

Or are you going to limit it to a certain group of immigrants? If so, describe that group.

Yes. And that group would be people from islamic country's. Simple no? Discrimination, you betcha, frankly it's hard so say it isn't. But I couldn't care what people call it. Muslims should sort out their mess before even thinking about moving to a civilization, they have the whole world to go caveman but the Netherlands isn't part of it.

[Tribesman]

I am taking the time to respond, I however am not going to take the time to validate my claim because I already know you will ignore it.
Hey Frag I took the time to wade through your link to find the relevant link which contained the right reports just in case by some miracle it would turn out that you were not talking bollox.
But it turned out you was talking bollox.
So it isn't that you are not going to validate your claim , its simply that you cannot validate your claim because it was pure bollox.


no, I am not.
Are you sure?:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Tell me, how would immigrants be of any use to us when all but a few are too busy having honor in the local teahouse.
Errrrr...Frag read your own link , you are talking bollox.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I think we've had quite enough of the racism and personal attacks that characterise this thread and it's subject matter.

I would not be benevolent towards another thread or its originator that takes the same low road. There is an interesting debate to be had on immigration and indeed multiculturalism, but to shed any light on the subject, requires a high level of discussion and mutual respect - both somewhat absent herein.

:closed: