Debate: - What animals are ours to kill, and eat, and skin... etc [Archive]

Cute Wolf

06-27-2009, 15:41

PLEASE : this thread is about what of most animal - lovers call "animal cruelty"
Put aside Religious restrictions... we are know that muslim and jewish didn't eat pork, and hindus didn't eat cows, and buddhist didn't eat animals at all... but "all you can eat" religious views (that didn't have any restricted foods in accordance to God), can be given

Now I give my base opinion:

1) All animals are ours to eat, ours to wear, and ours to skinned and killed and etc, they are afterall only animals that didn't share any rights on their own, they can't argue afterall... human does argue for them...
2) Although all animals are ours to eat, we should keep the balance of the nature, eq no overhunting or killing endangered species... and likewise...
3) We should respect The owner's (read : legal owner's) rights : meaning we didn't capture, kill and eat animals that belongs to someone else without their own permission... Without permission, it was thievery after all...
4) Why did u can feel animals (read: dogs, cats, monkeys, birds) as family members? If you do that, then why you put all those animals in a level that they shouldn't be... it's ok to keep cats and dogs as pest controller in the house, and even you can grow attached to them as personally as possible... it's ok to pretend that cat, or that dog you own is deserve some kind of honor... but there was no way to generalize the term about all cats and dogs receive such honour...
5) Just because you feel that you fear to lost that "companion animal" did you have... all people will be banned from doing such "cruelty" (eq: kill, eat, skin...) to all those kind of species... killing another people's property is a crime... but killing stray cats, and then dispose them properly (read: properly bury them, or eat them, or some kind that really diffrent than throwing dead carcass in front of the people's home), shouldn't be punished as "animal-murder"... killing animals is not a homicide don't you...
6) Even when some "sickos" torture animals for fun, they are maybe just try to quench their anger, but then if they just kill them, and not creating mess with their carcass (properly dumped them on the right place, and take something valuable) then they are not guilty. Why did u took killing dogs is offensive, but killing a wild deer is justifiable behaviour?
7) God did create all animals for ours to eat... all religions say that humans are has higher state than those animals... put aside some religious restriction... of food... we can just skin them and they are still ok to perform...

As a starter... what about killing rabbits, and create jackets from them, and eat their meat...?

Thanks... opinion needed here...

Viking

06-27-2009, 16:26

You appear to have misunderstood what's considered 'animal cruelty'. Killing an animal is not considered animal cruelty by itself; it doesn't matter which animal it is. I've lost the count of how many kittens we've put to death in this house.

Generally, I don't feel any particular hunger for carnivores. I am not too much more inclined towards eating a fox/bear/wolf etc. rather than a dog or a cat.

Alexander the Pretty Good

06-27-2009, 16:40

I've lost the count of how many kittens we've put to death in this house.
You run Kitty Death Row?

Sorry, just sounded funny. :P

Also, Cute Wolf starting a thread on eating animals... there's a joke in here somewhere.

Beskar

06-27-2009, 17:52

We have the same obligation to eat animals like animals eat us.

Also, I eaten Rabbit, it tastes like chicken but is far more greasy.

Animal cruelty is torturing animals over prolong periods of time for sick sadist pleasure. Nothing to do with wanting to eat an animal for a meal or killing a pest.

rajpoot

06-27-2009, 17:59

I think animals have no rights....and then neither do humans. I don't consider us being in anyway unique in nature. Sure we can think, and we are a lot more intelligent than the rest of the 'animals', but that is just because we evolved that way....our ancestors were animals after all.
So if we are animals, and we are all the part of some big foodchain (and are presently on the top I think) than we are free to kill and eat anything. So 'naturally' speaking animals have no rights and neither do other humans. The fact that we made laws to protect ourselves from our own kind is different.
On the other hand, once can also say that since we are evolved enough we ought to show compassion for life and stop killing....be it animals or other humans.
But I don't think this middle way makes much sense.....you killing considerately, taking into consideration the endangered species and stuff.....I mean how many species have already become extinct? Had nature really wanted to preserve them (or God, if you will) then it would have happened by itself....we would have still had the mammoths around....
This habit of man trying to play God is just not right in anyway. Killing animals but still trying to keep the species alive......I mean what's the point? All species will become extinct one day! If one is so concerned about nature and her works then stop killing all together.....or else forget conservation.
Just my two cents.

Samurai Waki

06-27-2009, 19:02

The killing of animals should only be when it is necessary to our own survival, and using every feasible part thus, going about and killing kittens out of some sick pleasure is not my idea of acting upon the notion of mercy; However, I do understand that euthanasia is necessary for population control, as long as it is done as humanely as possible. So suffocating them, shooting them, kicking them, running em' over doesn't qualify. We are "enlightened" beings, we should strive to act like it.

And we are in no way superior to animals, we are as much a subject to the changing environs of the earth as they are, we are quite simply put, as easily affected by the whims of the universe, as they are. Only, when our time comes we will not exist, and yet some animals will continue.

Thats Karma.

GeneralHankerchief

06-27-2009, 20:06

Food chain and Darwinism. If we can, then we're allowed to. Simple as that.

Now, that said, human custom has overridden some of the above, more baser, principles, such as the fact that you shouldn't be overly cruel, or that it's more frowned upon in Western culture to go after the domesticated animal, etc. Also, we're at the point where we're so successful in our ability to exercise our will over the animal kingdom that we're allowed to be discriminatory in our taste.

miotas

06-27-2009, 20:07

Killing animals but still trying to keep the species alive......I mean what's the point? All species will become extinct one day! If one is so concerned about nature and her works then stop killing all together.....or else forget conservation.

Why don't commit suicide? You will die at some point anyway.

Why doesn't a farmer slaughter all his cattle? Because he needs a certain amount alive so he can breed new ones. If we all subscribe to your idea of just killing everything because it will die someday, then before long the earth would only have 1 starving human left.

On topic though, it isn't considered cruelty to kill an animal quickly, and humans are at the top of the food chain so we can eat what we like. On the companionship side of things, I quite like dogs since they are a lot of fun to play with, and they often do stupid, funny things. Cats however, I can't see how people would like them. Perhaps they are really lonely and are desperate for a friend?

Devastatin Dave

06-27-2009, 20:18

Using animals for food or clothing is much different from "torturing" animals. Although I have to admit hypocracy when it comes to sea mammals. Harpooning whales and clubing dolphins seems rather cruel especially considering how intelligent they are. There are too many variables to debate this really when you look through the prism of culture, humanity, and need.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-27-2009, 20:23

You should not eat carnivors. meat eaters eating meat eaters is always bad. It has caused BSE, and I believe similar diseases among canibals as well.

As an extension of that, you should not eat animals you have a working relationship with. This includes, cats and more especially dogs and horses.

Of all animals dogs are the most loyal to humans, they are pack animals and they "pack" with humans when domesticated. Killing dogs may not be inhumane, but it is disturbing because of the physchological bond that should form, failure to form that bond says a great deal about the human.

Scurvy

06-27-2009, 22:08

Of all animals dogs are the most loyal to humans, they are pack animals and they "pack" with humans when domesticated. Killing dogs may not be inhumane, but it is disturbing because of the physchological bond that should form, failure to form that bond says a great deal about the human.

You don't think that just a cultural thing? I had a Dog and Rabbit, and never really cared for the Dog, but loved the Rabbit. Having said that I agree with all the OP numbers (apart from 7). I have never really cared for animals, and although I'm not huge on 'animal cruelty', I find I react very differently too it compared to cruelty or actions against people.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-27-2009, 23:17

You don't think that just a cultural thing? I had a Dog and Rabbit, and never really cared for the Dog, but loved the Rabbit. Having said that I agree with all the OP numbers (apart from 7). I have never really cared for animals, and although I'm not huge on 'animal cruelty', I find I react very differently too it compared to cruelty or actions against people.

I think breeding a working animal like a dog for eating is much more of a "cultural thing", we domesticated dogs for work and partnership (with them as the lesser partners). Eating them as a delicacy is a sign of wealth, you are so well off you can afford to eat your dogs.

Normally, that would mean your society was going down the tubes.

miotas

06-27-2009, 23:45

I think breeding a working animal like a dog for eating is much more of a "cultural thing", we domesticated dogs for work and partnership (with them as the lesser partners). Eating them as a delicacy is a sign of wealth, you are so well off you can afford to eat your dogs.

Normally, that would mean your society was going down the tubes.

I actually think that it would have started out of desperation rather than wealth. When you get to the point that you don't have a choice, it's either eat the dog or die. I think most delicacies would have started like that. Think about it, who would eat a mollusc or scrape fungi off the forest floor unless they were bloody desperate for food? Yet nowadays snails and mushrooms are delicacies that most people only buy if they have a bit of extra cash to spare.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-28-2009, 01:03

I actually think that it would have started out of desperation rather than wealth. When you get to the point that you don't have a choice, it's either eat the dog or die. I think most delicacies would have started like that. Think about it, who would eat a mollusc or scrape fungi off the forest floor unless they were bloody desperate for food? Yet nowadays snails and mushrooms are delicacies that most people only buy if they have a bit of extra cash to spare.

No, delicacies are status foods, things people don't normally eat. If you are eating your dogs you will, it's stupid and pathetic and an absolute last resort.

However, if you have a surplus of dogs you can eat them, and that is a sign of pretty extreme wealth.

Mushrooms are actually quite nice, some of them, but they're scarce, hense expensive.

Snails are disgusting, so being able to eat them is a sign of extremely good breeding. You would be surprised the things medieval and renaissance nobles were willing to eat, just to prove a pedigree.

Jolt

06-28-2009, 03:52

4) Why did u can feel animals (read: dogs, cats, monkeys, birds) as family members? If you do that, then why you put all those animals in a level that they shouldn't be...

When you get home, and have a cat to soothe you, to play with you, to interact and be satisfied with your presence. In time, the animal itself grows to comprehend your very emotions and signs, something even your family cannot. They are capable of understanding and reacting to aggression (When I was a kid, if my parents were angry at me and started talking to me in an aggressive tone or started to hit me, the first thing they saw was the cat running full steam towards them with its claws ready. And the fact that both human and animal have the ability to attach and bond together is one of the deepest things I have ever experienced (The fact that even with me being physically much larger than my cat, my cat recognized my youth and acted basically as she acted to her own cubs, licking and cleaning and defending them when possible). The fact that they could go angry with us for a period of time and then forgive, and many other human related feelings which allows humans to connect and care about these animals.

As such I value the dignity and well being of these animals as much as those of human beings, and if I ever learned that someone had killed my cats, I swear I would go utterly berserk.

Louis VI the Fat

06-28-2009, 04:14

What animals are ours to eat? Gah!

Animals have lost the evolution. We won, so we get to eat them all. Get over it.

Crazed Rabbit

06-28-2009, 07:18

What animals are ours to eat? Gah!

Animals have lost the evolution. We won, so we get to eat them all. Get over it.

:yes: I would only stipulate that said animals be killed humanely.

CR

Fragony

06-28-2009, 07:30

When you get home, and have a cat to soothe you, to play with you, to interact and be satisfied with your presence. In time, the animal itself grows to comprehend your very emotions and signs, something even your family cannot. They are capable of understanding and reacting to aggression (When I was a kid, if my parents were angry at me and started talking to me in an aggressive tone or started to hit me, the first thing they saw was the cat running full steam towards them with its claws ready. And the fact that both human and animal have the ability to attach and bond together is one of the deepest things I have ever experienced (The fact that even with me being physically much larger than my cat, my cat recognized my youth and acted basically as she acted to her own cubs, licking and cleaning and defending them when possible). The fact that they could go angry with us for a period of time and then forgive, and many other human related feelings which allows humans to connect and care about these animals.

As such I value the dignity and well being of these animals as much as those of human beings, and if I ever learned that someone had killed my cats, I swear I would go utterly berserk.

Know what you mean, they just love being around you, it's even possible for a cat to actually be offended. Not so fun when they bring you a 'present' though, waking up with blood and feathers all over your pillow :beam:

Whacker

06-28-2009, 07:54

:yes: I would only stipulate that said animals be killed humanely.

CR

Agreed. As an aside, it's a bit ironic that I find the methods used to prepare kosher meats to be pretty sick and inhumane by today's standards.

Hooahguy

06-28-2009, 08:00

Agreed. As an aside, it's a bit ironic that I find the methods used to prepare kosher meats to be pretty sick and inhumane by today's standards.
actually, the methods used by kosher butchers are much more humane than normal butchers.

miotas

06-28-2009, 08:21

No, no, no. Don't believe a word Jolt says. Cats are inherently evil, hence why evil megalomaniacs like Blofeld have cats. Whereas dogs are made of pure, concentrated awesomeness, hence Inspector Rex. Haven't you ever seen Cats & Dogs?

Cats are basically stuck up :daisy: whereas a dog is a lovable bundle of fun, genetically programmed to induce maximum fun when interacting with humans. Plus cats hold a grudge, if a dog does something naughty and you clip it, 10 seconds later he will be you best friend again, do the same with a cat and a week later it will still try to claw your face off. Also, you can train a dog, they practically want to be trained, it's how they've been bred over the thousands of years. Cats are comparatively rather stupid, to train a cat you pretty much need to be a reclusive loner with no social life. Oh, and I can't forget play fights. I love play fighting with my labs, if I tried to wrestle a cat it would just go squish. And going for walks, playing fetch, swimming at the beach. I could go on and on. The list of things you can do with a dog that you can't do with a cat is just endless.

Of course all the above doesn't apply to rats like foxies and chihuahuas, they aren't real dogs.

Basically to sum things up, if you've never bonded with a dog, then you are missing out, cats however, well you can just keep eating them.

@Cute Wolf: are there specific breeds of dog that you eat or is any breed good to eat, I don't really have any desire to eat a dog, I'm just curious. Also, have you ever slaughtered any animals you've eaten? I think it's hypocritical that people like eating meat, but think that doing the dirty work is disgusting. Don't get me wrong. I do buy my meat from the shops, but I have beheaded and plucked chickens. Slit a kangaroos throat, after my uncle shot it down, and proceeded to skin it (rather badly unfortunately) and cut it up for cooking, and I have helped cut a cow into steaks.

Rob The Bastard

06-28-2009, 10:32

I hunt and fish and, generally, I do take home what I catch/kill.

I am more comfortable killing, gutting and eating a wild animal/fish than I am killing and dressing poultry that I have raised.

A wild animal lives with an awareness of danger and it's place on the food chain. I am just one more predator passing it's way. It has a chance to escape, at least.

I have eaten wild rabbit, hare, goat, deer, pig.

Rabbit meat doesn't really excite me... don't get me wrong, the meat is fine, but I teethed on rabbit bones so I can take it or leave it now. It doesn't compare well to venison or wild pork, either.

When you intend to eat the results of your hunt, the swiftest death posible, for your quarry, is most desirable. Most serious hunters I know strive for that.

miotas

06-28-2009, 11:19

Yeah I forgot about fish, but really that's just run of the mill stuff that everyone does right? I mean who hasn't gutted cleaned a fish? Most people however, will never catch and prepare a mammal or bird. But when you catch it you always do the quick kill, like a knife to the brain for a fish.

Fragony

06-28-2009, 13:40

a dog is a lovable bundle of fun

Won't argue with that, love dogs as well, the best natured and most loyal creatures in the world. Love having cats around, they are so satisfied.

penguinking

06-28-2009, 15:57

actually, the methods used by kosher butchers are much more humane than normal butchers.

Completely false. Ritual slaughter involves a knife being drawn across the unfortunate animal's throat, and it is bled to death. Which is excruciatingly painful. The animal can survive for minutes in intense pain after it's throat has been slit, and the animal is not stunned.

Of course, other animal slaughtering also uses horrific methods.

rajpoot

06-28-2009, 16:18

To speak on the two ways they use to slaughter animals here, we call one of them 'halal', which penguinking has mentioned in the post above. The other is called 'jhatka', where the animal is killed with a single blow, usually involving breaking of the neck.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-28-2009, 16:20

actually, the methods used by kosher butchers are much more humane than normal butchers.

I somewhat dissagree. Some general methods of slaughter can be vile if not carried out properly. Generally when there is too long taken between the stunning and killing. However, use of the bolt gun, or an iron hammer and the head straight off after are better than just kutting the throat.

Fragony

06-28-2009, 16:33

Don't worry about the actual slaughter, they have no idea what's going on, and they are naturally not going to have any memory's of the event. It's all cleaned, no traces of blood, rules are very strict. Then they get a pin in their brains, gone. Pigs get gassed first , they are gone when their throat gets slit.. If you want to make things less miserable start with the transport.

edit:not talking kosher or halal here, that should stop not a very nice thing to do, but the usually so vocal guttmenschen are kinda so very very recovering from their last demonstration for something like more soup for Walibies or whatever justifies saying booooo.

Hooahguy

06-28-2009, 17:56

Completely false. Ritual slaughter involves a knife being drawn across the unfortunate animal's throat, and it is bled to death. Which is excruciatingly painful. The animal can survive for minutes in intense pain after it's throat has been slit, and the animal is not stunned.

Of course, other animal slaughtering also uses horrific methods.
maybe you should do a bit of research into Jewish ritual slaughter before making a comment like that. :dizzy2:

same goes for you too, Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-28-2009, 20:10

maybe you should do a bit of research into Jewish ritual slaughter before making a comment like that. :dizzy2:

same goes for you too, Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla.

I checked just in case, the animal must be concious and the spine must not be severed at the first cut, the two main ways of limiting suffering.

So, I am quite happy to stand by my previous statement. Modern slaughter techniques, properly practiced, are less traumatic and cause less suffering.

Edit: BBC article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2977086.stm

The idea that severing the front of the neck immidiately causes the animal to lose conciousness is unsupportable, given that we know you can starve the brain for around four minutes in a human.

Hooahguy

06-28-2009, 22:14

I checked just in case, the animal must be concious and the spine must not be severed at the first cut, the two main ways of limiting suffering.

So, I am quite happy to stand by my previous statement. Modern slaughter techniques, properly practiced, are less traumatic and cause less suffering.

Edit: BBC article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2977086.stm

The idea that severing the front of the neck immidiately causes the animal to lose conciousness is unsupportable, given that we know you can starve the brain for around four minutes in a human.
thus is the opinion of the uninformed.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-28-2009, 22:17

thus is the opinion of the uninformed.

If you have an insight to share, then do so.

Hooahguy

06-28-2009, 22:24

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-28-2009, 22:31

what the rabbi said in the article was true. Jewish law demands that the butcher use a very charp knife, and make ONE swift cut ona certain part of the neck that immediatly kills the animal. if you want proof, visit your local jewish slaughterhouse. trust me, when i visited a few months ago, its actually pretty interesting.

or read up in the Talmud, which goes into detail about this FOR THE EVERY REASON that the animal feels no pain. G-d knows best, right?

I don't believe what the Rabbi said, simply because personal experience doesn't bear it out, and because it has been fairly well proved that even if you remove the head the animal/man can remain concious for several minutes. The appearence of unconciousness is usually caused by going into shock.

as to the Talmud, it's just words on the page, wasn't written by God, or any of his prophets (certainly not Leviticus) and is replete with errors and anachronisms.

Hooahguy

06-28-2009, 22:37

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-28-2009, 22:46

well, if you refuse to believe, then go on, believe your own fallacies.

and the thing about the talmud, G-d told us to listen to the Rabbis, soooooo......:dizzy2:
equation:
g-d tells us to listen to the rabbis ---> rabbis write the Talmud which is in depth commentary on the Mishnah, which details laws which are in the Torah---> we listen to the Rabbis and the Talmud.

OR

Rabbis write that you have to listen to Rabbis, God not directly involved.

As I say, when the heart stops the human brain remains alive for four minutes, I see no reason to believe that is significantly different in Mammals, and given that they have done things like transplant extra brains into Dogs all the evidence points that way.

Against that you have a book written in an alphabet that wasn't even concieved when most of the events it purrports to relate took place.

We aren't going to aggree on this, but don't casually tell me just cutting their throat is so humane without any actual evidence.

Hooahguy

06-28-2009, 22:56

Against that you have a book written in an alphabet that wasn't even concieved when most of the events it purrports to relate took place.
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
please, do even a LITTLE bit of research.
the Carlos Museum, located at Emory University, has a great exhibit on bible hebrew, plus has artifacts that proves that ancient hebrew was based off Polynesian languages. i suggest you travel to Atlanta to check it out.
but lets not digress.

We aren't going to aggree on this, but don't casually tell me just cutting their throat is so humane without any actual evidence.
i dont know, when that cow was slaughtered he looked pretty dead within 5 seconds, but ok, think what you want.
this is like debating for Israel: hitting up against a concrete wall.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-28-2009, 23:27

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
please, do even a LITTLE bit of research.
the Carlos Museum, located at Emory University, has a great exhibit on bible hebrew, plus has artifacts that proves that ancient hebrew was based off Polynesian languages. i suggest you travel to Atlanta to check it out.
but lets not digress.

I think you mean Phonecian, Hebrew as a written language is only around 3,000 (1000 BC) years old (greek 2,800-600), the events of Exodus and the end of Genesis are dated around 2000-1400 BC. So the "historical" events are recorded in an alphabet that is at best 400 years younger than the events it records. That's old as good as the Iliad, which even at it's most optimistic is not considered to be a "history" but rather a legendary account.

Edit: Oh, and irrc, most copies of even the early books are written in the Aramaic script, which puts them to about 600 BC (after the Exile).

Edit 2: Hmmm, a little further digging seems to suggest there are apparently older copies. Oh well.

i dont know, when that cow was slaughtered he looked pretty dead within 5 seconds, but ok, think what you want.
this is like debating for Israel: hitting up against a concrete wall.

Oh, I grant, looks dead, and will be so but that doesn't mean it doesn't have another three minutes to go.

Hax

06-28-2009, 23:45

that ancient hebrew was based off Polynesian languages

Well, that sounds pretty -- wait, what?

g-d tells us to listen to the rabbis ---> rabbis write the Talmud which is in depth commentary on the Mishnah, which details laws which are in the Torah---> we listen to the Rabbis and the Talmud.

That's circular logic, and is not a good way to discuss subjects. It's saying the Torah is right because it says it's right.

Whacker

06-28-2009, 23:48

Hooahguy, you need a healthy dose of Ego Check©.

Cutting an animal's throat is an excruciating and slow way to die. Your statement is patently false, there is absolutely no spot on an animals neck that will kill it "instantly", save for completely severing the spinal cord which even then is not instantaneous. The Wikipedia entry is exactly what my understanding is regarding kosher animal slaughter from reading other sources. In summary, the animal's throat is cut and that is all, it suffers and bleeds out. There is no "spinal cord severing".

Sorry. Kosher animal slaughter is barbaric, modern methods are far more humane.

LittleGrizzly

06-28-2009, 23:51

Im happy for people to kill any animal aslong as it's made useful (food, clothes)

Obviously you shouldn't take someone else's animal, but a wild one or one you own is perfectly reasonable...

I would be against killing endangered species...

I feel a little uneasy about eating our close relatives in the animal kingdom, and intelligent animals in general. Though i think thats because i see it as a waste of greater potential, that being said i wouldn't stop people eating our close relatives or intelligent animals...

IIRC pigs are quite clever by animals standards and i enjoy sausages and bacon (pork isn't too bad)

Hooahguy

06-28-2009, 23:57

Hooahguy, you need a healthy dose of Ego Check©.

and you need a healthy dose of understanding Jewish law. :dizzy2:

Beskar

06-29-2009, 00:00

Whacker

06-29-2009, 00:01

and you need a healthy dose of understanding Jewish law. :dizzy2:

Clearly, I'm always open to learning and to the possibility of being wrong. So are you going to educate me here, or are you going to continue to post snide, condescending, and insulting remarks with no bearing to the argument or supporting facts?

:balloon2:

Furunculus

06-29-2009, 00:02

[SIZE="2"]

As a starter... what about killing rabbits, and create jackets from them, and eat their meat...?

Thanks... opinion needed here...

i've snared and shot rabbits, and i have skinned and cooked rabbit. i'd like to tell you that i turned the skin into a fetching thong for Mrs Furunculus............................... but that would be a lie.

I like hunting rabbits. I like eating them too. One day i will make that rabbit skin thong.

Hax

06-29-2009, 00:04

and you need a healthy dose of understanding Jewish law. :dizzy2:

Being a vegetarian, I'd rather see animals being killed without suffering (which should be possible) than living its final moments in fear of the knife that will end its life.

Also, I think the scientific world has generally established not all scriptures in the Torah/Bible are correct. Or are you going to suggest the world is 6,000 years old? Of course, you can keep believing in those "fallacies", if I might be free enough to use your own speech.

miotas

06-29-2009, 00:06

the Carlos Museum, located at Emory University, has a great exhibit on bible hebrew, plus has artifacts that proves that ancient hebrew was based off Polynesian languages. i suggest you travel to Atlanta to check it out.

Gah? Polynesian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesia)?

Hooahguy

06-29-2009, 00:10

Clearly, I'm always open to learning and to the possibility of being wrong. So are you going to educate me here, or are you going to continue to post snide, condescending, and insulting remarks with no bearing to the argument or supporting facts?

:balloon2:

:laugh4:

ok, ok.
one of the main reasons why we cut across the neck is because it drains blood quickly. anyone who knows the slightest bit about Jewish dietary laws knows that there can be no blood in our meat, hence the heavy salting process.
and i still strongly disagree that slicing a deep cut in the neck is painless. as far as i know, arent the nerves for cows near the front? so a deep cut would slice the nerves, causing little pain. but wouldnt a nail gun or whatever "modern" methods are used leave the nerves intact?

oh, sorry for pointing out how oblivious you are to Jewish law, and sorry for the pain i caused you. :no:

Hooahguy

06-29-2009, 00:11

Gah? Polynesian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesia)?
yaya, i know a mistake. sorry bout that.

Hax

06-29-2009, 00:20

one of the main reasons why we cut across the neck is because it drains blood quickly. anyone who knows the slightest bit about Jewish dietary laws knows that there can be no blood in our meat, hence the heavy salting process.

Try abstaining from meat altogether. It's the easiest way to not eat blood.

Hooahguy

06-29-2009, 00:26

Try abstaining from meat altogether. It's the easiest way to not eat blood.
well, considering cows and sheep and other animals were part of sacrifices....

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-29-2009, 00:29

:laugh4:

ok, ok.
one of the main reasons why we cut across the neck is because it drains blood quickly. anyone who knows the slightest bit about Jewish dietary laws knows that there can be no blood in our meat, hence the heavy salting process.
and i still strongly disagree that slicing a deep cut in the neck is painless. as far as i know, arent the nerves for cows near the front? so a deep cut would slice the nerves, causing little pain. but wouldnt a nail gun or whatever "modern" methods are used leave the nerves intact?

oh, sorry for pointing out how oblivious you are to Jewish law, and sorry for the pain i caused you. :no:

The bolt gun is used on the head not the neck. It turns the animal's brain to mush, then the throat is cut to drain the blood.

You keep saying we're oblivious to Jewish Law but haven't shown where we contradict it. We say you cut it's throat, you say you cut it's throat.

Where's the contradiction.

Hax

06-29-2009, 00:32

Hooahguy, I don't think you can call Whacker oblivious. You are Jewish yourself, and as such cannot look at ritual animal slaughter in a completely neutral way. Whacker, however, can.

You are talking from a religious point of view, stating that the Torah is infallible. I'm afraid that following such logic in a modern society is virtually impossible, unless you enclose yourself in a society which shares the same point of view as yourself.

Hooahguy

06-29-2009, 00:32

I think Hooahguy is just trolling everyone, it is the only logical conclusion. From when he mentions that in the Talmud that YHWH said to listen to the Rabbi's then clarifies it saying that the Talmud was written by the Rabbi's says enough.

so youre saying that G-d never said to listen to the Rabbis. :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
keep talking Beskar, you crack me up.

sorry for my snide remarks. i just hate people who dont know a thing about judasim but think they do.

Hooahguy

06-29-2009, 00:34

You keep saying we're oblivious to Jewish Law but haven't shown where we contradict it. We say you cut it's throat, you say you cut it's throat.

Where's the contradiction.

the contradiction: you say that ritual slaughter is horrible, the torah thinks otherwise.

LittleGrizzly

06-29-2009, 00:34

so youre saying that G-d never said to listen to the Rabbis.

If you can provide conclusive evidence that God said anything anywhere you'll help solve a hell of a lot of arguments...

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-29-2009, 00:38

so youre saying that G-d never said to listen to the Rabbis. :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
keep talking Beskar, you crack me up.

sorry for my snide remarks. i just hate people who dont know a thing about judasim but think they do.

I have very little time for people who simply quote their Holy Book in an attempt to avoid an arguement. Particually the Holy Book you adhere to, replete as it is with copy errors, inconsistancies, blatently welding together of seperate texts, etc.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-29-2009, 00:39

the contradiction: you say that ritual slaughter is horrible, the torah thinks otherwise.

I say it causes suffering, you have provided no evidence to the contrary.

Hax

06-29-2009, 00:41

As I said, this discussion is pointless. Hooahguy believes in something which cannot be proven, and as such, this discussion cannot go any way except to the point of merciless trolling.

Hooahguy

06-29-2009, 00:42

I have very little time for people who simply quote their Holy Book in an attempt to avoid an arguement. Particually the Holy Book you adhere to, replete as it is with copy errors, inconsistancies, blatently welding together of seperate texts, etc.

and i have very little time for people who find problems with a law found in a holy book but denies the fact that its a holy book at all.

so youre saying that G-d never said to listen to the Rabbis.

If you can provide conclusive evidence that God said anything anywhere you'll help solves a hell of a lot of arguments...

ech, this is useless. waste of my time. pardon me while i go and take my anger out on some pixilated terrorists.

LittleGrizzly

06-29-2009, 00:50

ech, this is useless. waste of my time. pardon me while i go and take my anger out on some pixilated terrorists.

Sorry If i annoyed you but you laughed at Beskar when he said that God didn't tell people to listen to the Rabbi's, when outside of holy writings there is nothing to confirm this.

Assuming this was another religion (or you were not jewish) wouldn't you also suspect that Rabbi's told people to listen to the Rabbi's, as seen as its not your religion thier god doesn't exsist, so the possibilites of God making this order are slim...

With Beskar being an atheist (im assuming) you can not use your God as a positive argument for something... what if i told you mother Earth talks to me and said that animals suffer under Kosher methods of slaughter...

Hooahguy

06-29-2009, 00:55

ah, now i see...
let me cool down and maybe we can resume this debate. or not. probably just get my anger level back up.

Beskar

06-29-2009, 01:50

I was merely pointing out that your god said to listen to the Rabbi's. Then you said, the Rabbi's wrote the book where your god said this. Any instance of foul-play, such as the Rabbi's writing it in there for power, control and various selfish reasons is just human nature to assume and doubt what is said. Even though I didn't explicitly say it, you knew exactly what I referring to.

While you justify it asking if I believe your god said it or not, that is merely a question of faith, in essence, blind-trust, as you really do need to have to believe that your god really wrote that or not and the obvious alternative that man wrote it, posing as your god is definitely disheartening.

Vuk

06-29-2009, 02:10

May I point something out Cute Wolf? It is impossible to have this discussion the way you want without religion. Religion defines the world as something created and owned by someone else, so we need their permission to use what is theirs. If you do not believe in religion however, and we evolved or just are here, then everyone is his own, and either you believe in breaking the sanctity of somethings life or you don't. Do you get what I am saying?
I am a Christian, and God gave man full stewardship over all the earth, so I believe that it is not only mans right but also his responsibility to manage the earth. (Would a good steward of a house not dust the house? Or a good steward of the field not sow, weed, and reap?) What restrictions God puts on eating those animals is beside the point, as we are their stewards and have the right to kill them, skin them, or whatever else we want that does not violate God's laws.

Cute Wolf

06-29-2009, 10:47

Thanks for all opinion, sorry, Yesterday, I was busy and didn't have time to open internet... so sorry for that late replies...

@Cute Wolf: are there specific breeds of dog that you eat or is any breed good to eat, I don't really have any desire to eat a dog, I'm just curious. Also, have you ever slaughtered any animals you've eaten? I think it's hypocritical that people like eating meat, but think that doing the dirty work is disgusting. Don't get me wrong. I do buy my meat from the shops, but I have beheaded and plucked chickens. Slit a kangaroos throat, after my uncle shot it down, and proceeded to skin it (rather badly unfortunately) and cut it up for cooking, and I have helped cut a cow into steaks.

I allready killed, and eat several cats and dogs... they are fun to eat with your friends..... Slitting throats of cats and dogs aren't easy though... they always try to fight back... so they must be tied up bludgeoned to "KO" first with anything available (preferably hammer or axe to do a quick job, but in case u are camping in the mountain and forgot that stuff, rocks or even kicks works as well)... But to slaughter rabbits... you just need to choke their neck, stomp their backfeet, and slit their neck, that's it... they won't fight back...

Completely false. Ritual slaughter involves a knife being drawn across the unfortunate animal's throat, and it is bled to death. Which is excruciatingly painful. The animal can survive for minutes in intense pain after it's throat has been slit, and the animal is not stunned.

Of course, other animal slaughtering also uses horrific methods.

Jews and muslims are forbidden to eat anything with blood... so, they must be slitted alive, to made their blood pumped out automatically, I have some experience watching my muslim friends slaughter goats and chickens for BBQ... tied up the animals, hang them upside down, slit their throat, and wait half a hour to leat all it's blood out.... It was a religious regulation of course, and muslim and jews didn't eat most carnivores... as Hooahguy says, a sharp knive will render them instanly unconcious (not dead, but technically, they are allready "must 90% dead", I have the experience of slitting chickens until they runs their blood out... their heart are still contracting), and lessen the suffering.... and as I said from the front, don't quote too much "dogmatic" religious debate... please :2thumbsup:

You should not eat carnivors. meat eaters eating meat eaters is always bad. It has caused BSE, and I believe similar diseases among canibals as well.

You just need hygenie cooking condition... like when you slaughter and cook the pigs... BSE was caused by protein intrusion, and proteins are denaturated (deactivated permanently), after you treat them in completely boiling water for some time... it was because cannibals didn't cook their meat properly...

Being a vegetarian, I'd rather see animals being killed without suffering (which should be possible) than living its final moments in fear of the knife that will end its life.

Also, I think the scientific world has generally established not all scriptures in the Torah/Bible are correct. Or are you going to suggest the world is 6,000 years old? Of course, you can keep believing in those "fallacies", if I might be free enough to use your own speech.

I bet u are a Buddhist or Wiccan Hax... that religion belief in reincarnation, don't you, and I didn't believe that the chickens I just eat is my previous life childrens..... If I want to say according to what u say... (EDIT: SORRY HAX!!! SORRY!!!)

May I point something out Cute Wolf? It is impossible to have this discussion the way you want without religion. Religion defines the world as something created and owned by someone else, so we need their permission to use what is theirs. If you do not believe in religion however, and we evolved or just are here, then everyone is his own, and either you believe in breaking the sanctity of somethings life or you don't. Do you get what I am saying?
I am a Christian, and God gave man full stewardship over all the earth, so I believe that it is not only mans right but also his responsibility to manage the earth. (Would a good steward of a house not dust the house? Or a good steward of the field not sow, weed, and reap?) What restrictions God puts on eating those animals is beside the point, as we are their stewards and have the right to kill them, skin them, or whatever else we want that does not violate God's laws.

Ahh.. a very good point vux... but just try to minimize the religious factor, that's why God create us to dominate the wolrd, but still preserve it...

--------------------------------------------------

No, no, I don't hate pets... I know when some kind of animals goes too close, you are unseparable and become best friends... but why did most of westerners seems to generalize the "friendship" with all kind of dogs and cats?

Thanks... Cute Wolf
(Note: My name didn't said I didn't eat wolf... allready try smoked wolf slices, imported from China... that's yummy...)

Hax

06-29-2009, 11:30

I bet u are a Buddhist or Wiccan Hax... that religion belief in reincarnation, don't you, and I didn't believe that the chickens I just eat is my previous life childrens..... If I want to say according to what u say... Both are lame, It's extreme form pacifism is, for those who weak minded... so don't annoy another religion please... u annoy all the Abrahamic religion's faith u know... :laugh4: sorry...

Buddhist Vajrayana branch, Shingon sect.

First of all, you are in violation of forum rules as you are insulting my religion. This is against the rules which this forum abides to. As far as I know, I have neither annoyed nor insulted your personal religion which I believe to be Roman Catholic.

Secondly, I do not understand your problem with pacifism? I wish to make myself as clear as possible. Generally, the act of killing is regarded as an evil deed. I do not see what is wrong with trying to limit the amount of suffering in the world. If you have a different opinion, I suggest that you first try and learn what suffering is about and read about the Buddhist scriptures. My apologies for stating so, but I believe you are an ignorant person who has little to no knowledge concerning the well-being of others.

Generally speaking, people like you give other Abrahamic faithful a bad name. I sincerely hope you adjust your opinion.

Cute Wolf

06-29-2009, 11:40

@ HAX...

Please accept my sincrere sorry for this....:bow:

Hax

06-29-2009, 12:33

Heh, it's alright.

Anyways, trying to think before acting is usually a good idea.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-29-2009, 12:37

I allready killed, and eat several cats and dogs... they are fun to eat with your friends..... Slitting throats of cats and dogs aren't easy though... they always try to fight back... so they must be tied up bludgeoned to "KO" first with anything available (preferably hammer or axe to do a quick job, but in case u are camping in the mountain and forgot that stuff, rocks or even kicks works as well)... But to slaughter rabbits... you just need to choke their neck, stomp their backfeet, and slit their neck, that's it... they won't fight back...

Why do you kill cats and dogs, and why are you out in the wilderness hunting without an axe and hammer?!

You just need hygenie cooking condition... like when you slaughter and cook the pigs... BSE was caused by protein intrusion, and proteins are denaturated (deactivated permanently), after you treat them in completely boiling water for some time... it was because cannibals didn't cook their meat properly...

Sorry, BSE isn't destroyed by boiling. It doesn't work, that belief led to cross-infection in hospitals. I stand by my point, it's not safe to eat animals that eat what you eat.

Cute Wolf

06-29-2009, 12:54

Why do you kill cats and dogs, and why are you out in the wilderness hunting without an axe and hammer?!

Sorry, BSE isn't destroyed by boiling. It doesn't work, that belief led to cross-infection in hospitals. I stand by my point, it's not safe to eat animals that eat what you eat.

1) Actually, it wasn't in the wilderness hunting, it was just some hiking, and when someone say... "It's a good idea to bought a cat / dog for snack..." and that happened... cats and dogs are commonly sold at what called "Animal market" intended for food here... just as pork, most people here didn't eat them, but they are still widely sold...

2) BSE is caused by misfold proteins

from wikipedia:
The infectious agent in BSE is believed to be a specific type of misfolded protein called a prion. Those prion proteins carry the disease between individuals and cause deterioration of the brain. BSE is a type of transmissible spongiform encephalopathy (TSE).[10] TSEs can arise in animals that carry an allele which causes previously normal protein molecules to contort by themselves from an alpha helical arrangement to a beta pleated sheet, which is the disease-causing shape for the particular protein. Transmission can occur when healthy animals come in contact with tainted tissues from others with the disease. In the brain these proteins cause native cellular prion protein to deform into the infectious state, which then goes on to deform further prion protein in an exponential cascade. This results in protein aggregates, which then form dense plaque fibers, leading to the microscopic appearance of "holes" in the brain, degeneration of physical and mental abilities, and ultimately death., boiling them is a sure way to denaturate them, and then it was safe... hey, a reason here to cut your own dogs / cats, rather than buy allready slaughtered dog / cat meat is for that: Hygenie... at least u can made sure they are properly cleaned...

Rhyfelwyr

06-29-2009, 13:10

I don't think animals have any sorts of rights than mean we are bound to treat them any sort of way, but that does not mean that we are not responsible if we cause them unecessary suffering.

And even then, it is only OK to kill an animal when it is for a good purpose (ie food, not entertainment). I guess you could say then that we should be vegetarians if possible, but eating animals is natural, and that's what is different from killing them for fun or to look stylish in some fur... they are just human leisure pursuits, not an acceptable reason to end an animal's life.

When we do kill animals for food, it should be done as humanely as possible. There have been quite a few documentaries recently on how terribly animals are treated... chickens eat till their legs break, some other bird is stuffed with grain through a tube down its throat until its liver is ready to burst. How someone could try to defend this is beyond me. Maybe if it was to help a famine somewhere I could understand, but in the latter example I gave that bird's liver is just used as a delicacy. Never mind whatever 'rights' people think they have to treat animals any way they like, I'm all in favour of regulations to control it.

Maybe religious practises are an exception. hooah, I think it will be difficult to prove that a several thousand year old religious custom is going to be as good as the latest techniques (well the good latest techniques available, not the horrendous ones some places use nowadays). I don't think most people here would try to stop you from preparing meat the kosher way, but I think you've got to hold your hands up and say maybe it is a bit cruel.

Although kosher/halal practises are nothing compared to some of the things done for the sake of big business.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-29-2009, 13:14

1) Actually, it wasn't in the wilderness hunting, it was just some hiking, and when someone say... "It's a good idea to bought a cat / dog for snack..." and that happened... cats and dogs are commonly sold at what called "Animal market" intended for food here... just as pork, most people here didn't eat them, but they are still widely sold...

2) BSE is caused by misfold proteins
, boiling them is a sure way to denaturate them, and then it was safe... hey, a reason here to cut your own dogs / cats, rather than buy allready slaughtered dog / cat meat is for that: Hygenie... at least u can made sure they are properly cleaned...

Wrong, wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bse#UK_epizootic_and_UK_licensed_medicines

The scientific consensus is that infectious BSE prion material is not destroyed through normal cooking procedures, meaning that contaminated beef foodstuffs prepared "well done" may remain infectious.[16] (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/#cite_note-15)[17] (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/#cite_note-16)

Hooahguy

06-29-2009, 13:30

IAlthough kosher/halal practises are nothing compared to some of the things done for the sake of big business.
there was a NY time article a few months ago about some huge meat processing plant and its method of treating animals and how it was revealed through an undercover video.
ill see if i can dig it up.

Cute Wolf

06-29-2009, 13:42

there was a NY time article a few months ago about some huge meat processing plant and its method of treating animals and how it was revealed through an undercover video.
ill see if i can dig it up.

It was sent by some sick men at PETA, they didn't want us to eat yummy meats and wear beautiful furs for their (_ _) philoshopy....

BTW, slitting animal throat and hanging them upside down is just fine to pump out all their blood... it was a "torture" than it was yes, but at least u got cleaner food... animals aren't human, so torturing them for a purpose is ok...

Ser Clegane

06-29-2009, 13:44

animals aren't human, so torturing them for a purpose is ok...

Interesting statement - what qualifies as "for a purpose" in your opinion?

Cute Wolf

06-29-2009, 14:01

@ Ser Cleagne...
For their meat, guts, furs, bones, science projects, and everything that we can take from that animals.

In Biochemistry, or Natural Product Organic chemistry research (I see that happened, but I didn't actually perform them, coz I was at Inorganic research)... certified white mouse is used for some torture, that are very painful and u can see sadistic, but not without clear purpose. such as LD-50 (50% lethal dose) experiment... they are injected with several chemichals, without any anesthetic, and then leaved to shrieek and squeakk to their death.... counts for hours... after that, their procedural "death verification" was stabbing their backhead with something sharp... piercing their brain.... afterall, they are all put on the same cell... but animals aren't human anyway... and they didn't deserve any mercy in that case...

Viking

06-29-2009, 14:18

[...]but animals aren't human anyway... and they didn't deserve any mercy in that case...

Going by that logic, it would be silly to ask aliens to stop torturing humans if they ever found their way to the Earth.

Ser Clegane

06-29-2009, 14:23

@ Ser Cleagne...
For their meat, guts, furs, bones, science projects, and everything that we can take from that animals.

How about "just for fun"?

Cute Wolf

06-29-2009, 14:38

just like this? sorry to post a link to a grotesque image...

pic removed by Ser Clegane

just no... this was pointless....

Ser Clegane

06-29-2009, 14:55

But isn't torturing for meat etc also pointless as long as it can be avoided?

BTW, I removed the pic you posted - not really the type of picture (series) that is appropriate here (i.e., gratuitous gore)

Vuk

06-29-2009, 15:01

just like this? sorry to post a link to a grotesque image...

just no... this was pointless....

That is absolutely horrible. I will not ask where you found a photo like that. God said that you are not supposed to try to cause animals pain. You can use them if you need them, but you have to remember that they are not yours, but God's, and He does not want you torturing His creatures. A steward takes care of his master's property, and uses it how he is instructed. A criminal wastes and pointlessly destroys that property.
That woman must indeed be very evil. A) For wanting to cause any animal pain. B) For willing to kill anything for no reason but attention and to satisfy a sadistic tendency. C) For betraying something that trusts her that much as a kitten.
I don't know why you chose to post that picture CW, and I really do not care, because it is in very bad taste. I do not think things like that should be posted on this forum.

Cute Wolf

06-29-2009, 15:14

Oh, sorry, i think to put it in a spoiler and a warning... oops... sooryy....
I never think that "gore-ness" was applied to animal image (previously i read the rules, and think that only applies as human image :skull:)... sorry...

BTW, That was a prime example of what we shouldn't do... for just a fun, but if that woman just bludgeon the kitten's head to the death in proper place (such as inside a bucket, so its brain didn't dirty public properties, or at open soil), and then cook its meat as soup, that's acceptable... Did u know my point... that was pointless death... and for more, I got this pic from googling about "animal torture"

EDIT:
Torturing for meat? Try to watch videos about feline slaughter... (search for yourself) and u will know why torture for meat is sometimes unavoidable...

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-29-2009, 15:28

Torturing for meat? Try to watch videos about feline slaughter... (search for yourself) and u will know why torture for meat is sometimes unavoidable...

So don't eat cats if you can't kill them properly.

Ser Clegane

06-29-2009, 16:57

So don't eat cats if you can't kill them properly.

And there you hit exactly the nail that I was aiming for.
If someone insists on eating an animal that needs to be tortured to deliver the optimum in terms of taste, then this is absolulety the same as torturing "just for fun" (in this case the fun of a special dish) - hence my question in one of the previous posts.

Cute Wolf

06-29-2009, 17:07

And there you hit exactly the nail that I was aiming for.
If someone insists on eating an animal that needs to be tortured to deliver the optimum in terms of taste, then this is absolulety the same as torturing "just for fun" (in this case the fun of a special dish) - hence my question in one of the previous posts.

Very different than 19 y old charged w feline murder story... he doesn't ate that cat...
Phew... to made all the opinion, I'll think I'll buy a cat meat / dog meat, steak it, and bet most of the orgah here can't tell the difference w bacon... can I post the pic? not disturbing pics of course, just "before" (the life cat / dog) and "after" (ready for dinner) :yes:

Ser Clegane

06-29-2009, 17:21

Cute Wolf

06-29-2009, 17:30

Just to clarify - and that perhaps also fits with your other thread - generally I have no problem at all with people eating dogs or cats.
I eat pork. A pig is a very intelligent animal and certainly also can make a good pet if you would like to have one - I still prefer to have the dog as a pet and eat the pig.
I will not go around and condemn people for eating dogs and cats while at the same time I am enjoying beef and ignoring the feelings that Indians have for cows.

However, I prefer to have the animals that I eat killed swiftly and ideally without pain. If you tell me that my pork might taste better if it is tortured to death or if you tell me that a cat can only be properly slaughtered by torturing it, then I would opt out and settle for second best.
If you are torturing an animal to make it taste better, you are effectively torturing it for pleasure, i.e. for "fun" and the difference between this and a woman who stomps a cat to death because she enjoys the power-trip is somewhat marginal.

Oh... at least now I understand your psition... many thanks... :bow: Herbivores doesn't have any "fight-back" sense, and so can quickly dispatched, but carnivores... the "fight-back" is their instinct... no wonder, their slaughter is more difficult......

Well, rating delicacies is not for mere fun.. it was diffrent level... of statisfication...
Did any sane humans enjoy decapitating chickens? :inquisitive: I guess not... but it was required to made a good KFC!