How much trading have you been doing in v1.3?

[al Roumi]

What experiences have you had of trading in v1.3? Anyone held trade nodes since 1700? Or have most people wimped out like I did and gone for the shelter of dry land and a continental campaign?

The first campaign i tried when v1.3 came out last week was a UP one. In my first turn I did the (then) normal thing of building indiamen in all ports accross the globe and fragmenting my trade fleet in the East indies, claiming all but the 1 trade spot the pirates were guarding and sending the Fluyts off to madagascar. I then smugly ended the turn.

:oops:

Indeed. The pirates in the E Indies attacked and chased-off 2 of my ships from their trade nodes in the same turn. I tried to move them around and trade whilst avoidingt he priates but lost 2 indiamen in the next few turns. Meanwhile, my fluyts arrived in Madagascar and were set upon by the resident pirate fleet, only just managing to get away back to the indian ocean.

I then canceled my queued indiamen and built a couple of fluyts in Ceylon instead, hoping to use them to destroy the fleet of Xebecs in the East indies and return to "normal" business claiming trade nodes.

I destroyed the Xebec fleet and send my damaged fluyts back to Colombo to be patched up. however, in the same turn another pirate fleet popped up and set upon my defenceless indiamen like a fox in a hen house. Realising that the game had changed in a more than imperceptible manner, I decided to put my UP on ice and start an aclimatisation campaign with Spain.

The Spanish campaign has been going well, although I've made no effort whatsoever to claim trade nodes, concentrating on resources from plantations for trade. As the pirates are now least active in America (especially after taking Trinidad), the main threat to my shipping has come from Moroccan and Barbary state galley fleets blockading my ports in the western mediterranean and GB and UP blockades in the Atlantic.

I've now turned a corner, having built up my navy enough to pressure my Naval foes on their shores. In doing so, I've captured a fair few dromons and have launched a squadron of 3 3rd rate ships of the line. Finaly, in 1735, I am going to send a trade fleet to the ivory coast...

[Slaists]

What experiences have you had of trading in v1.3? Anyone held trade nodes since 1700? Or have most people wimped out like I did and gone for the shelter of dry land and a continental campaign?

The first campaign i tried when v1.3 came out last week was a UP one. In my first turn I did the (then) normal thing of building indiamen in all ports accross the globe and fragmenting my trade fleet in the East indies, claiming all but the 1 trade spot the pirates were guarding and sending the Fluyts off to madagascar. I then smugly ended the turn.

:oops:

Indeed. The pirates in the E Indies attacked and chased-off 2 of my ships from their trade nodes in the same turn. I tried to move them around and trade whilst avoidingt he priates but lost 2 indiamen in the next few turns. Meanwhile, my fluyts arrived in Madagascar and were set upon by the resident pirate fleet, only just managing to get away back to the indian ocean.

I then canceled my queued indiamen and built a couple of fluyts in Ceylon instead, hoping to use them to destroy the fleet of Xebecs in the East indies and return to "normal" business claiming trade nodes.

I destroyed the Xebec fleet and send my damaged fluyts back to Colombo to be patched up. however, in the same turn another pirate fleet popped up and set upon my defenceless indiamen like a fox in a hen house. Realising that the game had changed in a more than imperceptible manner, I decided to put my UP on ice and start an aclimatisation campaign with Spain.

The Spanish campaign has been going well, although I've made no effort whatsoever to claim trade nodes, concentrating on resources from plantations for trade. As the pirates are now least active in America (especially after taking Trinidad), the main threat to my shipping has come from Moroccan and Barbary state galley fleets blockading my ports in the western mediterranean and GB and UP blockades in the Atlantic.

I've now turned a corner, having built up my navy enough to pressure my Naval foes on their shores. In doing so, I've captured a fair few dromons and have launched a squadron of 3 3rd rate ships of the line. Finaly, in 1735, I am going to send a trade fleet to the ivory coast...

I guess, it depends on what faction you are playing. The colonial powers (Brits, Spanish, French, UP, also Marathas, Mughals, Turks and Russians) have the advantage of having significant amounts of trade goods produced in their territories (tea, sugar, tobacco, coffee, cotton, spices, furs). These factions can generate significant trade without the need to fight for the 'anchors'.

Playing as the Brits I managed to grab quite a few of the trade nodes after the initial trade node rush by the AI. Ironically, the Pirates destroyed the AI fleets in the process, but got wiped out in the process themselves... So, by 1715, the British fleet could roll into many trade nodes unopposed. Subsequently, I took out the pirate islands and thus the grey pests ceased to be a problem.

My biggest trading 'bottleneck' came in 1730 when Spanish, Prussians, and Marathas all declared war on me at once. All 3 of them had been significant trade partners of mine before + they are able to block my remaining trade... I even had to disband some troops and older ships to be able to afford further development. An interesting game.

Playing as French in 1710 I am mostly doing 'raid-run' kind of trading. With several Indiamen roaming the theaters. Once the pirates attack, I run (for another theater) to trade somewhere else... Given the low upkeep of the Indiamen: it seems to work so far. I am scrambling to send some army to deal with the source of the problem (in the Caribbean) though.

[Hosakawa Tito]

I've played Prussia for the first time since owning the game. I tried sending two Indiamen to the Ivory Coast to grab a piece of the ivory trade. I snuck by the pirate fleet and grabbed a vacant trade node, but next turn the pirates destroyed me. I haven't bothered with a navy since then and concentrated on Germany & eastern Europe. It's 1720, I'm allied with Austria and have taken Saxony, East Prussia, Courland, Warsaw, Vilnius Lithuania, Bavaria. I'm at war with Poland, Russia *just declared after I took Vilnius from Poland*, and Westphalia. I've been trying to develope my industries & farms and am trading with Denmark, GB, Austria, Ottomans, Sweden, Portugal, Hannover. However I just can't seem to make any money, maybe 1500 per year if I'm lucky. Westphalia & Wuttermberg are so strong that I can't attack and hold either without opening up Brandenburg or Saxony to invasion by either or their ally Hannover, who has quite a stack of troops also for a 1 region faction. I'm kind of stuck and can't decide what to do at the moment. I'm trying to ally with Sweden in hopes their big navy can help me out and put pressure on Russia, but so far no dice.

[Slaists]

I've played Prussia for the first time since owning the game. I tried sending two Indiamen to the Ivory Coast to grab a piece of the ivory trade. I snuck by the pirate fleet and grabbed a vacant trade node, but next turn the pirates destroyed me. I haven't bothered with a navy since then and concentrated on Germany & eastern Europe. It's 1720, I'm allied with Austria and have taken Saxony, East Prussia, Courland, Warsaw, Vilnius Lithuania, Bavaria. I'm at war with Poland, Russia *just declared after I took Vilnius from Poland*, and Westphalia. I've been trying to develope my industries & farms and am trading with Denmark, GB, Austria, Ottomans, Sweden, Portugal, Hannover. However I just can't seem to make any money, maybe 1500 per year if I'm lucky. Westphalia & Wuttermberg are so strong that I can't attack and hold either without opening up Brandenburg or Saxony to invasion by either or their ally Hannover, who has quite a stack of troops also for a 1 region faction. I'm kind of stuck and can't decide what to do at the moment. I'm trying to ally with Sweden in hopes their big navy can help me out and put pressure on Russia, but so far no dice.

BTW, post 1.3, unit costs do differ across difficulty levels. It seems much harder to generate high per-turn profit on VH.

[Daveybaby]

I'm currently playing a marathas campaign, and didnt bother sending out trade fleets during the early stages, instead concentrating on taking out the mughals. While i was doing that i noticed that the AI factions have been giving the pirates a pretty comprehensive beating, to the extent that the pirates are a spent force, every ship they spawn gets taken out the turn after it appears.

So now i'm in the situation where most of the trade theatres are free of pirates, and there are still plenty of trade spots available as a result of inter-faction fighting. As i'm fairly isolated down in the indian subcontinent i'm not at war with anyone except the remnants of the mughal empire (and they dont have any fleets left, and no ports to build any ships with) i have a free reign to go out and start filling up those trade spots.

[FactionHeir]

Most any Western nation that has oversea holdings can take out the pirates by turn 8, so you won't need to send escorts with your merchants anymore.

[al Roumi]

Most any Western nation that has oversea holdings can take out the pirates by turn 8, so you won't need to send escorts with your merchants anymore.

Indeed, i was in a position to deal with them by turn 10 (in my spanish campaign), but focussed instead on completing the New Spain mission and then rolling up the British islands.

I've actually got no idea what the situation is in the trade theatres, but I think there is at least one large Pirate fleet roaming accross them.

I'd been leaving the pirates, perversely relishing the challenge (obviously not so much relish or i'd have carried on as the UP...) to setting up trade from the nodes.

[Slaists]

Most any Western nation that has oversea holdings can take out the pirates by turn 8, so you won't need to send escorts with your merchants anymore.

You'll regret that decision once most other Western Nations declare war on You ;)
I've had Spanish galleon fleets give my Indiamen thorough trashing a turn after the Spanish justly (I had taken Cuba from them earlier in the game) declared war on me (the Brits)...

[Monsieur Alphonse]

Indeed. I had almost a monopoly on spices and ivory when France decided to attack me. At first my Spanish galleons were able to keep the French fleet away from the trade nodes. But after a while a French squadron slipped through and annihilated my monopoly. After that I had one galleon on each node but a surprise DoW from Savoy caused me to loose an other node. At the moment I have 9 out of ten ivory nodes and five spice nodes. The strangest thing is that I only started to sent in Indiamen from turn 10. By then I had destroyed the pirates, but strangely all the nodes were empty.

[Slaists]

Indeed. I had almost a monopoly on spices and ivory when France decided to attack me. At first my Spanish galleons were able to keep the French fleet away from the trade nodes. But after a while a French squadron slipped through and annihilated my monopoly. After that I had one galleon on each node but a surprise DoW from Savoy caused me to loose an other node. At the moment I have 9 out of ten ivory nodes and five spice nodes. The strangest thing is that I only started to sent in Indiamen from turn 10. By then I had destroyed the pirates, but strangely all the nodes were empty.

All the nodes were empty because of fighting between the pirates and the starting trading fleets. + by turn 10 you knocked out the pirate fleets by taking their territory. I have seen that happen a few times.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

All the nodes were empty because of fighting between the pirates and the starting trading fleets. + by turn 10 you knocked out the pirate fleets by taking their territory. I have seen that happen a few times.

Correct. But it took me a couple of turns to occupy the nodes. During these turns the AI didn't sent any ships. Only after some 20 to 30 extra turns did some trade fleets show up in the trade regions. Is it possible that the early fighting is causing problems for the AI which isn't able to build some ships because of lack of funds?

[Marquis of Roland]

In my Prussian campaign, I stopped sending out indiamen after I found out the pirates new behavior. Didn't really bother me though; the budget was pretty tight for the first 40 years and its smooth sailing from there. It's 1776 now and I still haven't bothered sending anything out.

In my British campaign, I let them live. I farm them for navy xp :2thumbsup:

[Slaists]

Correct. But it took me a couple of turns to occupy the nodes. During these turns the AI didn't sent any ships. Only after some 20 to 30 extra turns did some trade fleets show up in the trade regions. Is it possible that the early fighting is causing problems for the AI which isn't able to build some ships because of lack of funds?

Well, it takes time (and money) to replenish destroyed fleets. As see it being quite realistic.


In my Prussian campaign, I stopped sending out indiamen after I found out the pirates new behavior. Didn't really bother me though; the budget was pretty tight for the first 40 years and its smooth sailing from there. It's 1776 now and I still haven't bothered sending anything out.

In my British campaign, I let them live. I farm them for navy xp :2thumbsup:

Not only that, the bounty $$$ for pirate ships is quite good too.

[Marcus Caelius]

I don't know how you deal with pirates

there's an invincible stack off the ivory coast, made up of 56 gun galleons. Every time i send groups of 48 gun ships i get beaten and whenever i come back with a rebuilt force they have 3 new galleons.

it is unreasonable that a bunch of pirates should have more cannons than most great-power nations.

in reality, hardly ever could any pirates stand up to even a single frigate.

I think pirates damaging traderoutes is fine, but being able to time-after-time beat most of the royal navy is weird, and if such a thing happened, should provoke a grand alliance between the great powers to reduce the pirates to a level that permits trade again.

And one other thing:

why is it when fighting pirates i discover they have spawned 3 new galleons and i click evade battle (to hopefully combine with a bigger force), do i automatically lose the complete flotilla while inflicting no damage at all?

Why? What's the point of all this?

[AussieGiant]

I think pirates are well done at the moment.

They are something you need to account for or you will be made to pay.

Plus with all the inter faction fighting it's really a lot more realistic.

[al Roumi]

I don't know how you deal with pirates

there's an invincible stack off the ivory coast, made up of 56 gun galleons. Every time i send groups of 48 gun ships i get beaten and whenever i come back with a rebuilt force they have 3 new galleons.

it is unreasonable that a bunch of pirates should have more cannons than most great-power nations.

in reality, hardly ever could any pirates stand up to even a single frigate.

I think pirates damaging traderoutes is fine, but being able to time-after-time beat most of the royal navy is weird, and if such a thing happened, should provoke a grand alliance between the great powers to reduce the pirates to a level that permits trade again.

And one other thing:

why is it when fighting pirates i discover they have spawned 3 new galleons and i click evade battle (to hopefully combine with a bigger force), do i automatically lose the complete flotilla while inflicting no damage at all?

Why? What's the point of all this?

Things have changed since v1.2...

Unless you have access to Fluyts or galleons yourself, don't expect to be able to go toe-to-toe with pirate fleets in the trade theatres (for the most part, pirates in the caribean have smaller ships & fleets).

That means that as any nation other than Spain or UP, only once you can recruit 5th rates will you stand a fighting chance of defending inter-continental trade.

Real payback comes with your ability to recruit 3rd rates as these simply outclass Galleons and fluyts, although it's still best not to underestimate them!

Also, be wary of auto-resolving naval battles as the current outcomes can be a bit harsh. The quality of your admiral plays a large part in whether you will get a good result or not though.

[Didz]

I restrict myself to one trade port per trade theatre anyway to give the AI a chance. Not that it usually makes much use of it.

As far as the pirates are concerned, until you can build 5th Rates its not likely that you can take on the pirates unless you are playing the Dutch because the pirates ships are so overpowered in ETW.

What I usually do is monitor the trade theatres and start sending indiamen over once I'm sure the pirates are gone. Sometimes the AI will take them out, but in my current Swedish campaign I've just built a squadron of 5th rates to go and deal with The Ivory Coast (its 1735), and East Indies. But, I've had a full trade fleet in Madagascar since about 1715, because I think the Spanish dealt with the pirates in that zone.

The real problem is that pirates don't behave like pirates in ETW. Instead, they are probably the worlds strongest naval power. All of my largest and most nail biting naval battles have been against the pirates, the AI rarely puts any fleet together even remotely as challenging. Considering what CA could have done with pirates its a bit dissappointing.

[Basileus]

I usually build like 14 indianmen bunch them up send a fleet of 6 ships kill the pirates then occupy the tradespots and guard with my fleet, i keep sending tradeships after that and it works good. I stopped playing now though diplomacy in the game is screwed up that i cant take it anymore :D

[Marcus Caelius]

Well i guess it's nice to have a challenge, for this reason i'm only mildly annoyed by the massively ubered native american bowmen that seem to have a 1 in 3 kill rate per arrow (60 bowmen on average kill 20 militia per volley). It's pleasant to find something difficult, although back in MTW days on VH i had that sort of challenge when horsearchers could charge up a mountain to engage downward charging chivalric knights and win.

Sometimes the challenge thing.....can be overrated...when it offends one's common sense.



Also, be wary of auto-resolving naval battles as the current outcomes can be a bit harsh. The quality of your admiral plays a large part in whether you will get a good result or not though.

It wasn't auto-resolve that led to the destruction of the fleet, it was the retreat button.

On the main maps, i find this function works well, and my indiamen frequently run away from pirates, but on the trade regions maps, to retreat results in the immediate loss of your fleet. At least it did mine

My conclusion is: it's another bug

And the whole pirate model may be challenging, but it's ridiculously flawed.

frankly i'm not sure i can be bothered to build another fleet to replace that one and go back only to see the pirate fleet has spawned another 6 galleons. there's just no fun in it.

[Slaists]

My conclusion is: it's another bug

And the whole pirate model may be challenging, but it's ridiculously flawed.

frankly i'm not sure i can be bothered to build another fleet to replace that one and go back only to see the pirate fleet has spawned another 6 galleons. there's just no fun in it.

The key with the pirates is... to take their bases out asap so they don't run out of control. On the positive side, those pirate galleons (when captured) make excellent trade spot guards. 60 cannons to boot + they pay for their upkeep.

[Didz]

The only reason I don't do that is becuase their maintenance is about three times that of an indiamen so they are constantly eating into your profit margin on the trade route. In fact, you lose more money that way than if your trade route was being raided on a turn by turn basis.

[Marcus Caelius]

The key with the pirates is... to take their bases out asap so they don't run out of control. On the positive side, those pirate galleons (when captured) make excellent trade spot guards. 60 cannons to boot + they pay for their upkeep.

yeah, but this is still poor game design

why even have a feature of the game if the only valid strategy is to eliminate it in the first few turns?

Better to have pirates a recurring problem rather than something that kills trade. Remember pirates are parasites. They don't want to kill trade off, since that destroys their own livelihood. They wish to tax it.

If they start getting out of hand, and trading nations find they dent too much, then they cooperate to deal with it.

Otherwise then they just exist as a nuisance

So basically pirates should be relatively easy, and cheap, to manage.
But very expensive to totally remove, to be totally dominant everywhere, all the time.

The present solution is pointless and not fun to play.

[Didz]

The more interesting approach would have been to have privateers available as agents which could be given letters of marque by the major factions to make profits from commerce rading on that nations behalf. These privateers would then ocassionally go freelance, either becase they were not making enough profit, or because their employers decided their services were no longer required and in doing so they and their ships would become pirate pleets.

That would have created the proper relationship between the warfare of the period and the level of pirate activity in a region, whilst including another missing aspect of 18th Century warfare.

[Slaists]

yeah, but this is still poor game design

why even have a feature of the game if the only valid strategy is to eliminate it in the first few turns?

Better to have pirates a recurring problem rather than something that kills trade. Remember pirates are parasites. They don't want to kill trade off, since that destroys their own livelihood. They wish to tax it.

If they start getting out of hand, and trading nations find they dent too much, then they cooperate to deal with it.

Otherwise then they just exist as a nuisance

So basically pirates should be relatively easy, and cheap, to manage.
But very expensive to totally remove, to be totally dominant everywhere, all the time.

The present solution is pointless and not fun to play.

I see it that if one is serious about trade, pirates NEED to be controlled. And that's not that far from the XVIII century reality. The pirates were leftovers from the XVII century and the big powers did get their act together to remove them completely (well, almost) from the Caribbean.

What I find unrealistic is that the same pirate 'faction' roams near Africa and Indonesia. With very few exceptions, there were local pirate bases there. So, what I'd like to see in an expansion is extra pirate factions localized to those areas. If you want the trade theater clean, you need to take care of the pirates there.


The only reason I don't do that is becuase their maintenance is about three times that of an indiamen so they are constantly eating into your profit margin on the trade route. In fact, you lose more money that way than if your trade route was being raided on a turn by turn basis.

Hehe, don't underestimate the power of trade route raiding (especially when done to the player; the AI does not care about economic handicaps nowadays). Playing as UP, I suddenly realized that instead of a 20K per turn profit, I am losing -10K/turn because a huge French fleet camped out on the main artery (near Spain) leading from ALL of my colonies to Netherlands. The French raiders brought my 30K trading revenue down to exactly ZERO...

It seems, the efficiency of raiding depends on the number of ships doing the said raiding. The more ships in the raid group, the bigger chunk gets taken away.

As to Galleons: you misunderstood me. The bulk of my merchants are still Indiamen (cheap upkeep). However, I do have 2-3 galleons or fluyts in each theater where I have significant trading presence. Those galleons provide the escort to the indiamen and I've been thankful to have them on several occasions. An AI fleet of sloops, dhows and brigs can easily wipe out a theater filled just with Indiamen (I've seen that happen). Things are different when you throw a few Galleons into the equation.

I could have war ships do the guard duty, but war ships do not earn anything. A galleon camping out on an anchor earns it's living.


The more interesting approach would have been to have privateers available as agents which could be given letters of marque by the major factions to make profits from commerce rading on that nations behalf. These privateers would then ocassionally go freelance, either becase they were not making enough profit, or because their employers decided their services were no longer required and in doing so they and their ships would become pirate pleets.

That would have created the proper relationship between the warfare of the period and the level of pirate activity in a region, whilst including another missing aspect of 18th Century warfare.

I agree, privateering would have been a very nice feature.

[Prussian to the Iron]

my trade has been going great. anyone will accept trade for military access, even people on different continents.