ID cards [Archive]

Tribesman

07-03-2009, 20:44

Just wondering, for all you Brits.
Can you go through the responses to this article and find any that don't really say **** off?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2009/jul/02/identity-cards-fraud-cost
Or could you think of any arguement that wouldn't get a response of **** off?

HoreTore

07-03-2009, 21:16

Here's one:

ID cards are a good idea.

The problem in Britain is that the ID card scheme has become confused with the Labour government, and Tony Blair's legacy, and therefore faces a near-impossible task in getting a reasoned examination.

So we get all these helpful comments like "Shove it" from barryanderic. Or, a little higher up "Leave us alone will ye ?".

Still: I think it's probably a good idea to make it voluntary.
The sad thing is all those raging incoherently against ID cards will, I think, find themselves obliged to pay for one in the long term.

They'll be queuing up to buy them, effing and blinding as they go, when they find they can't function as a normal citizen without demonstrating their ID.

But don't worry:
Most of the rest of the world has been through this.
None has revoked the ID card scheme once in place.

So unless the rest of the world is incompetent - that does suggest the scheme has some uses.

InsaneApache

07-03-2009, 21:36

I just wish that Mr. 0% (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gi7qqvRlY0) rise would just **** *** and take his slimey peers with him.

rory_20_uk

07-03-2009, 21:44

In principle I think ID cards are a good idea: the potential to combine a passport, driving licence, proof of age, and basic medical history in one place is a good idea.

There are some massive issues that would have to be addressed such as security.

To prove that any idea can be screwed up by the government, they've manage to ensure the cost is vastly more than planned and the uses are almost nil - what are they for exactly?

Making them voluntary is the last farcical play of the idea: it'll catch terrorists, criminals and asylum seekers who decide to purchase a £30 card and carry it with them... Hmmmm. Unless these three groups are suddenly overly law abiding and brain dead this isn't going to happen.

~:smoking:

Beskar

07-03-2009, 22:22

InsaneApache

07-03-2009, 23:24

"If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear". So goes the mantra from the government.

I really wouldn't know where to begin. :book:

rory_20_uk

07-03-2009, 23:47

ID card is for domestic use, or you can use a biometric passport for foreign use.

The idea is, however Rory, it is the opposite of your statement, it catches people without the card, not the people with the card. Making it voluntary ruins that whole idea.

Yes, I know the only use is if everyone has one. And the government has made it voluntary. Hence why I think they've made it into a farce.

~:smoking:

InsaneApache

07-04-2009, 01:40

I feel sorry for Brown.

Husar

07-04-2009, 01:43

Adrian II

07-04-2009, 02:09

Also if you got nothing to hide, then you got nothing to fear.If you have nothing to hide, it means you have no life. No enemies, no conflicts, no physical or psychological handicaps, no mistakes in your past, no neuroses, nothing out of the ordinary that might be misconstrued by anonymous officials and used against you one day.

Congratulations, you are officially a nobody. :balloon:

HoreTore

07-04-2009, 08:37

nvm, I worked tonight, and my mind isn't operational until after I've slept today....

Furunculus

07-04-2009, 09:37

my only response to Alan is: "get $#c&%@!"

Beskar

07-04-2009, 10:03

I think ID card issue was nicely summed up by Kilroy Silk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzZ86GYoxE0
"They must decide whether to Share or to Shaft"

Prodigal

07-04-2009, 10:08

I have an ID card...and I'm a slave... :shrug:

Also I have to ask young people for ID cards when they want to buy alcohol, I will remember all the info and hack it into a secret government database each night because the government...already has it anyway. If you can find any holes in this argument you may keep them.
Also if you got nothing to hide, then you got nothing to fear.
The early bird catches the worm and as the martians say a pound weighs less than a kilogram.

What I don't like a lot is that your cards can be read out from a distance, a piece of paper with text on it or a magnetic chip that can only be read with contact or near-contact sounds like a much better idea to me.

Do you make them sit down so you can store their smell too? :shame:

Just don't have the heart at present to go in depth about how mindnumbingly stupid the whole ID scheme is.

But it is a wasteful nonsense. The last time the UK required id cards was world war 2, national peril is the only time when any free society should acquiesce to such drastic measures. The potential for abuse by government, & by extension law enforcement, is simply too great that it should ever be considered acceptable.

The statement "I have nothing to hide" doesn't count for sweet FA when the corrupt or foolish decide you have.

Government should serve the people not hound & bully them. Goverment does not spend their money on unpopular enterprises like this, they spend mine. The only law the present unelected prime minister of the uk should pass is to enforce voting in elections.

naut

07-04-2009, 10:42

national peril is the only time when any free society should acquiesce to such drastic measures.
But, there is national peril. Brown won't get re-elected! :clown:

Beskar

07-04-2009, 10:51

Thing is, we have ID cards anyway, such as driving licence and passport. If it replaces all of those, there is nothing wrong with it.

naut

07-04-2009, 11:00

Thing is, we have ID cards anyway, such as driving licence and passport. If it replaces all of those, there is nothing wrong with it.
You're missing the point. It sets a precedent for other hair-brained governmental schemes. Frog in hot-water and all that. Wot, wot.

InsaneApache

07-04-2009, 11:01

As odious as it is, it's not the ID card that's the only issue. It's the database.

Beskar

07-04-2009, 11:03

As odious as it is, it's not the ID card that's the only issue. It's the database.

Indeed, at the moment it is several different databases and even then, lots of problems arise from it. The biggest concern will be the Data Protection Act, the fact there are all these different databases they want to merge could cause chaos and mistakes which brought the act into force in the first place.

"One Database to rule them all, and in the darkness, bind them!"

Husar

07-04-2009, 13:19

If you have nothing to hide, it means you have no life. No enemies, no conflicts, no physical or psychological handicaps, no mistakes in your past, no neuroses, nothing out of the ordinary that might be misconstrued by anonymous officials and used against you one day.

Congratulations, you are officially a nobody. :balloon:

I added that just for your entertainment, I was hoping the following statements would make that very clear but maybe you thought they were serious as well. :oops:

The whole rage seems stupid to me anyway since an ID card hardly has any very classified info about you, at least here. If you hide all your info from everybody else anyway then you're a nobody as well and nobody knows you. Try getting a wife when you won't even tell you your name or where you live since she might misuse that info... :rolleyees:
I hardly need my ID card and hardly show it to anybody, yet I bet you a lot of the info on it is known to quite a few people anyway, you even have to tell the government when you move elsewhere, there are birth certificates with your name and place of birth on them in some government storage/databank, in Obama's case the public even wanted him to make this public, then those same people complain about cards with some personal info on them.
If a police officer wants to abuse you, he doesn't need you to have an ID card, we already had a few topics about US officers doing that and IIRC they don't have ID cards in the US.

Thos whole thing about me remembering peoples' info was rather sarcastic, some people just hide their info, PIN etc from me like I would.

Beskar

07-05-2009, 00:06

The whole rage seems stupid to me anyway since an ID card hardly has any very classified info about you, at least here.

That is because you don't know what these ID cards entail. Admittedly, this hasn't even been brought up in the thread yet, I know I made some jokey posts but it even gets far darker then that.

Other than all your details which are present on separate identity cards combined onto one card, the new card would have your finger print details, your iris scan details, DNA details, you will have to fill out questionaires, in the style such as political compass so things like your views (political and social) are recorded, with all your bank accounts, your driving, birth, national insurance, criminal record, health record and various other things.

Long live Orwell.

Husar

07-05-2009, 07:30

That is because you don't know what these ID cards entail. Admittedly, this hasn't even been brought up in the thread yet, I know I made some jokey posts but it even gets far darker then that.

Other than all your details which are present on separate identity cards combined onto one card, the new card would have your finger print details, your iris scan details, DNA details, you will have to fill out questionaires, in the style such as political compass so things like your views (political and social) are recorded, with all your bank accounts, your driving, birth, national insurance, criminal record, health record and various other things.

Long live Orwell.

I see, thanks for the info.

I really didn't know there was going to be that much info on them and I agree that is quite a lot, too much I would say. Finger prints are one thing, you leave them on every glass anyway in case someone wants them, but bank accounts etc. should have nothing to do on an ID card, that's complete rubbish, I see an ID card as a way to identify yourself, and that's what it is here(and that comment posted earlier made me think the UK ones would be similar), not as a pocket wikipedia entry detailing your whole life. :inquisitive:

That's indeed very excessive.

rory_20_uk

07-05-2009, 12:45

What's wrong with iris / retinal scans and fingerprints?

First off I'm sceptical they'll have the infrastructure to collate this vast amount of info, then digitise on the card.

Second: utility. Who can read these things? Precious few. Those that can (i.e. the police) can get them anyway. In London they don't even just cause to detain thanks to the ongoing terrorism alert.

So, an example.

I get stopped. The police for some reason need to thoroughly check who I am. So I get detained at a police station whilst they try to get the information. I carry almost no ID of any use and as I'm not a criminal I've got no details on any system. It could take hours. On a weekday that means I've not got to work in time for my patients who will be extremely pissed off.

Or they pull me over, cross reference the card with my finger prints and most likely that is the end of it.

A police state doesn't need ID cards, nor is a free society utterly destroyed by their existence.

~:smoking:

Prodigal

07-05-2009, 13:34

Thing is, we have ID cards anyway, such as driving licence and passport. If it replaces all of those, there is nothing wrong with it.

Man, I agree with you, but seeing as they store all movements on oysters cards for over a year already, please excuse my paranoia; why? well, damn, I don't think the government needs to know where I am at all times. Course we're almost always on cctv, & they can triangulate your position if you're carrying a mobile phone.

Personally I think thats enough of an invasion of my privacy.

They would have liked to have kept DNA records indefinitley, of anyone they arrest even if their innocent.

Now they want people to pay 5 million base + the cost of the card, so they can have more ways of tracking your movements via your ID card, which by the bloody way, if you're not carrying you can be arrested for, at which time thay can take your DNA!!!...Please...Enjoy your stay in Camp UK, Be Pure, Be Vigilant, Behave.

Now that's all really screaming heeby jeeby "they're all out to get me" stuff, and maybe I wouldn't think it was important, but I don't like hearing that people are still being found inocent of crimes they have not committed but have had to serve years in prison for!

Show me a perfect legal system, & they can police me anyway they like. But I for one think the police are very far for perfect, as are our laws & system of government, and as such they should be bloody well muzzled. And don't get me started on crime prevention, because that's where this is leading :yes:

rasoforos

07-09-2009, 10:38

I find it rather strange that people are willing to accept a biometric passport with no much fuss...

...but they are unwilling to accept an ID card.

My oppinion? Non biometric ID cards. Plain plastic ones, no chips inside. So you can prove you are above tobacco-alcohol age and you can take money off your bank account without having to carry a 60-page booklet WITH biometrics (passport). That would be a nice compromise.

SwordsMaster

07-09-2009, 13:21

Or you can give money to a guy in a trenchcoat in a back alley to supply you with fingers, irises, names, bank account numbers or any other info you like to put on any of your IDs he can also, helpfully, get for ya.

I can picture the conversation in the depths of Scotland Yard: "What do you mean criminals have FAKE IDs?!"

I'm curious: Will tobacconists and off licenses have iris scanning equipment? That's be cool. Maybe they can have a T-800 model for a bouncer too!

Does anyone else think that the british government didn't quite understand the plot of V for Vendetta? They thought it was quite a good idea! Probably have blocked off the tube line under Westminster. Someone should check...

InsaneApache

07-09-2009, 15:31

Not V but they seem to think that 1984 and Animal Farm are a guide, not a warning, to governance.

Husar

07-09-2009, 15:54

My oppinion? Non biometric ID cards. Plain plastic ones, no chips inside. So you can prove you are above tobacco-alcohol age and you can take money off your bank account without having to carry a 60-page booklet WITH biometrics (passport). That would be a nice compromise.

That's what we have here I think.

My travel passport seems to have my fingerprints in electronic form because it's required to enter the USA for example. If they're on a chip it's invisible though, meaning I can't make out any chip inside the passport, the normal ID card doesn't have a chip AFAIK(well, could be an invisible one that the secret freemason world government uses for thought control or something along those lines but I'm not aware that there is one) and is mostly used for exactly what you describe.

KukriKhan

07-09-2009, 16:09

That's what we have here I think.

My travel passport seems to have my fingerprints in electronic form because it's required to enter the USA for example. If they're on a chip it's invisible though, meaning I can't make out any chip inside the passport, the normal ID card doesn't have a chip AFAIK(well, could be an invisible one that the secret freemason world government uses for thought control or something along those lines but I'm not aware that there is one) and is mostly used for exactly what you describe.

Yeah, but you guys have strange symbols on those "harmless" cards, according to this report (http://www.cremationofcare.com/illu_sym_german_id.htm).

Prodigal

07-09-2009, 17:22

That's what we have here I think.

My travel passport seems to have my fingerprints in electronic form because it's required to enter the USA for example. If they're on a chip it's invisible though, meaning I can't make out any chip inside the passport, the normal ID card doesn't have a chip AFAIK(well, could be an invisible one that the secret freemason world government uses for thought control or something along those lines but I'm not aware that there is one) and is mostly used for exactly what you describe.

How much does it cost? The more technology in it, the more they'll charge you for having to have it.

PS - The word million in my previous post should have started with a B, not an M

Furunculus

07-09-2009, 17:32

the register always writes pretty good articles on uk ID card plans:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/09/id_cards_nir_tory_lib_plans/

Vladimir

07-09-2009, 18:33

Yeah, but you guys have strange symbols on those "harmless" cards, according to this report (http://www.cremationofcare.com/illu_sym_german_id.htm).

Sorry. All the pictures look like a penis to me. :shrug:

Husar

07-10-2009, 02:26

How much does it cost? The more technology in it, the more they'll charge you for having to have it.
The travel passport 50EUR, the normal ID card I don't remember but it was cheaper.

Yeah, but you guys have strange symbols on those "harmless" cards, according to this report (http://www.cremationofcare.com/illu_sym_german_id.htm).

I told you I have a really nice boss... :devil:

Well, i just had a quick look, never really thought about it, but Personalausweis comes from Personalie (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personalie) and not Personal (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal), obviously both words come from person which makes sense considering persons are involved. :dizzy2:

apparently we will also only get electronic cards anymore from 2010 with some personal info on an RFID chip, time to stock up on tinfoil it seems.