The History Channel: From Hitler to Freemasons [Archive]

Sheogorath

07-05-2009, 19:13

Am I the only one who misses it when the History Channel had a WWII fetish? It seems now that every single program MUST mention, somewhere, Freemasonry, and its massive and ill-defined conspiracy. In fact, the only definite information they seem to give on the Freemasons is that all major US leaders are Freemasons, and that they're engaged in some kind of implied sinister conspiracy.

Exactly what this conspiracy is to accomplish, nobody seems to know. Even the 'Freemason Experts' they bring on. They just say "THERE IS A CONSPIRACY." They don't even bother to add "THEY WILL EAT OUR SOULS." It's just a CONSPIRACY for the sake of being a conspiracy. Religion figures into it somewhere too, although whether they're pagans, Protestant zealots or agnostics doesn't seem important. There's also some stuff about the constitution, but frankly I can't see how evil encouraging free thought is unless you're Louis XVI.

As far as I can figure out, it's something like this:

Knights Templar = Freemasons = US leadership

Therefore,

Jews and Catholics = Illuminati = Everybody else

So the secret alliance of Catholics and Jews known as the Illuminati battle the protestant (possibly) Freemasons. The History Channel unaccountably fails to mention this.

At least when they had a Hitler fetish we got to see cool videos of tanks shooting things. Now all we get is people in wigs sitting around tables in smokey rooms and OHMIGODWASHINGTONDCISAGIANTPENTAGRAM.

I wish I got History International. It seems they've moved all their good programming over there.

Adrian II

07-05-2009, 19:19

I wish I got History International. It seems they've moved all their good programming over there.I rarely watch tv anymore and never enjoy it. I didn't know the History Channel broadcast such crap.. :dizzy2:

I remember at least some decent HC programs back in my tv days - that's ten years ago though.

*limps off*

A Terribly Harmful Name

07-05-2009, 19:21

Yep, I too remember it. Around 2002 when I first watched it, it was good - now it has gone down a lot.

Beskar

07-05-2009, 20:53

I was looking at application forms for positions related to the British Justice system, on the applications, they had this one question which just made me go "What the hell?".

"Are you a Freemason? Yes/No"

Monk

07-05-2009, 20:54

You forgot their doomsday programing, and their UFO conspiracies, and things that have nothing to do with history like their reality shows. :shame:

Hosakawa Tito

07-05-2009, 20:58

Don't forget the Skull & Bones Society (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_and_Bones) at Yale. Even though the conspiracy theory is pretty far out there on the believability scale it is based on some historical facts, then mixed with large doses of fantasy. Besides it's good to know who your wackos are and what's on their mind. Not all the commentators in the program agree with the conspiracy theory, some refute it.

Sheogorath

07-05-2009, 20:59

You forgot their doomsday programing, and their UFO conspiracies, and things that have nothing to do with history like their reality shows. :shame:

Ugh. Ice Road Truckers makes me want to punch something. Especially when they run an ALL DAY MARATHON. I won't even get into Ax Men and the horror's its spawned on Discovery Channel.
SWAMP LOGGERS! ICE LOGGERS! ITS AX MEN, BUT IN A SWAMP!

Beskar

07-05-2009, 21:12

Oh yeah, the "Conspiracy" is the New World Order and the construction of the Temple of Solomon.

In the Mason constitution, they are all members who believe in a supreme being and are tasked with rebuilding the Temple of Solomon, which Muslims for example, accuse Freemasonry as a Zionist conspiracy (as a certain religious building of theirs has to be destroyed first for this to happen). The fact for example after invasion of Iraq, America forced the law banning Freemasonry to be repealed and thus opened the Land, Sea and Sky freemasonry temple in Iraq.

Freemasons have been a very powerful organistation, politically, across Europe and in America with many of its symbolism carved out.

Denying these facts is simply like peeing into the wind, it is denying one of the most powerful forces at work which has carved out Europe, America and vast majority of the modern world.

Beskar

07-05-2009, 21:20

The whole conspiracy angle is this. There is a big cabal involving many societies such as freemasonry in others which would focus its power on creating a New World, usually dictated under totalaritarian principles and even then, these forces fight amongst themselves in trying to produce this aim. Basically, it is like the "Hidden War" as on the surface, the ignorance of many is that it simply does not exist while to others, it is the whole of their existence, on many levels.

These forces apparently work in many ways with many people being faces of this and that governments are puppets of this whole agenda as these are the people behind the strings, pulling things. With their aims of making money, social engineering and others in hopes of producing the effects they want.

With Skulls and Bones for example, in the previous election with Bush and Kerry, they were both Skull and Bones members. This is a secret yale society which they all have top jobs in private and public sectors and areas of control, in a sense, it is a group of croynism where they all play favourites so people in their inner circle get the jobs. As you can guess, this isn't the only society out there too, there are others like the Freemasons, etc.

That is all of it, in a pure nutshell.

Husar

07-05-2009, 21:26

I'm afraid we've lost sheogorath to the freemasons... :no:

Hooahguy

07-05-2009, 22:45

i dont even own a tv.... :no: (the shows i want to watch, like family guy, are on Hulu)
i have my grandfather record shows on history channel (like Patton 360) and military channel (like best ranger competition) and ship them down to me, which he loves doing because it gives him an excuse to watch tv as well. :beam:

Meneldil

07-05-2009, 22:45

Beskar

07-05-2009, 23:01

That is what the conspiracy is. In senses, it is completely believable in some areas. Think about it this way, says you are a bank manager and out of the people who applied, your brother was one of them. Would you show favour to your brother and employ him? Typically, even though we might not admit it, the general answer is yes.

Now widen this, to family and friends. Would you do the same? Typical answer is yes.

What about your community, let's say you are a strong church goer and some one you knew there which you got along well with, you generally show favouritism and they get that job.

With secret societies such as Freemasons, Skull and Bones, etc, this is what happens, they are members of these communities and these people look after eachother. You rub some one elses back, they rub yours. This way, let's say members got into big serious positions, they get other members in other ones and soon enough, a society could gain a foothold in that area and could be argued as such, this happens with politicians. If we were a true meritocracy, what are the chances of a grandfather, father and son getting into positions of power like they did, even with the latter two being US presidents? Or the case of even two seemingly random people (Bush and Kerry), even in different parties end up belonging to the same secret society. The so-called Old Boys clique which is present in Westiminister in British Politics (The Eden boys).

It is these processes how things like this happen, if you say it small time, such as a butcher showing favour to a friends son, you wouldn't bat an eyelid, but what about a US president appointing some one as head of the federal reserve (or a powerful position similar to that).

The whole idea is that a cabal, full of these different groups are seeking World Domination, in a sense, a league of evil villains and instead of superman versus them one by one, unable to sololy do it themselves, the super villains work together and therefore defeat superman and actually win. It is this self-interest which sprout all sorts of secret societies, meetings and other things, such as Bohemian Grove and Bildenburg.

The whole idea of secret meetings bring panic and disturb people. Imagine world leaders in various areas all having a party together, rubbing eachother backs, doing seedy deals, wanting to further agendas which to men and women on the street are strict no's. lack of transparency and accountability.

It is this primal fear which gives wake to the terrible idea of the grand conspiracy, the conspiracy of the New World Order of total domination over the planet. Secret Organistations dating through hundreds of years, considerably changing our very history through their political manoeuvring. From the fall of governments, to the rise of new ones, the self-interest, creating divides, trying to conquer us all.

The question really is - Are these groups really working together as a cabal for the grand conspiracy or not? The question of existence is a non-issue, they really do exist, it is whether or not, as a matter of faith, they are the embodiment of our worse fears.

Meneldil

07-05-2009, 23:32

People helping eachothers because they belong to a same group doesn't mean they're part of a conspiracy.
Otherwise we could claim there's a worldwide chinese, mexican or algerian conspiracy because chineses, mexicans or algerians tend to help eachother when they live in a foreign country.

The only conspiracies in which freemasonry took part lately here in France (where Freemasonery had always been a strong force) were a few financial or political scandals. Some dude helped a 'brother' to get a public job. Some other dude stole a few thousands €. That's about it.

Now I get your point. People are generally afraid of secret/secretive organizations, such as freemasonry. They also for some reason crave for conspiracy theories (as described in Eco's Foucault's Pendulum). Yet, these fears lack any real basis and are completely irrational.

To use for a 'personal experience' argument, I know my grand father was member of the back then most prestigious lodge, and was quite high-ranked (can't remember the exact name of it, Something something of Sion), as well as a member of the (back then) extremely powerful radical party. I pretty much doubt he was part of a judeo bolchevick satanic plot to take over the world and destroy religion. And it does not look like he appointed his children to prestigious offices either ;).

Sarmatian

07-06-2009, 01:13

The question really is - Are these groups really working together as a cabal for the grand conspiracy or not? The question of existence is a non-issue, they really do exist, it is whether or not, as a matter of faith, they are the embodiment of our worse fears.

If those groups do exist and have been trying to take over the world for the last two thousand years, they aren't doing a really good job since political power has been gradually shifting all that time from a small elite to the general population.

One of my friends used to be a member of Freemasons in New Zealand. He was pretty junior, but from what he told me, it's really nothing more than a club for some influential people to meet other influential people so that they could do business together. Taking over the world wasn't on the agenda, at least when he was a member....

On the issue, I find History Channel rather pathetic. They generally distort events to make them more interesting in order get better ratings. Sometimes there's something good, but that's rare...

Louis VI the Fat

07-06-2009, 02:05

I know my grand father was member of the back then most prestigious lodge, and was quite high-ranked (can't remember the exact name of it, Something something of Sion), as well as a member of the (back then) extremely powerful radical party. I pretty much doubt he was part of a judeo bolchevick satanic plot to take over the world and destroy religion. Le Prieuré de Sion peurhaps? But that's an ultra-Catholic lodge, plotting against the Judeo-Bolchevik plot#to destroy religion.

However that may be, to quote Napoleon: c'est un tas d'imbéciles qui s'assemblent pour faire bonne chère et exécuter quelques folies ridicules.
('They are persons of limited intellect who gather for laffs and the execution of silly follies.')

Veho Nex

07-06-2009, 03:01

I miss the WW2 fetishes... *cry*

Devastatin Dave

07-06-2009, 03:16

Expedition Africa.... uhg. Althoug the chick in it has some nice taters.
The History Channel sucks. I stopped watching it when they cancelled Decisive Battles.

Kurando

07-06-2009, 05:21

Well, I don't make it any secret that I myself am a Freemason. For about 15 years or so I have belonged to Britannia Lodge #73, part of the Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon.

I am not particularly well traveled in Masonry, but I am aquainted with many who are, (some of whom were WW2 vets), and I can honestly say that I have never heard anything that would point towards conspiracies involving Freemasons in WW2 or elsewhere. Moreover, an epic battle between Catholic/Jewish interests and Protestant Freemasons in Europe seems far-fetched to say the least.

Besides, I am a Buddhist, and I know quit a few Sikh's and even a few Muslims who are Freemasons, so who's side would we fight on if there ever was such a battle??

I am very proud to be a Mason, especially since we raise over one million dollars each day for our Shriners Children's Hospital and affiliated charities. But even so, if I ever caught wind of actual conspiracies, or of Freemasonry being used en mass to control things in a way that wasn't obviously benefiting of the entire world, I would resign from the Lodge.

Louis VI the Fat

07-06-2009, 05:41

Besides, I am a Buddhist, and I know quit a few Sikh's and even a few Muslims who are Freemasons, so who's side would we fight on if there ever was such a battle??Easy.

I saw on the television that the Buddist lodge fights the ultra-Catholic Sions over control of Central Asian oil and pipelines. It says so in the Chartres Cathedral labyrinth. The Sion lodge got you real good when they blew up those Buddha's in Afghanistan together with the Kabul Muslim Cabal.

The Sikhs! Sikhs! Sikhs! lodge is a satanist cult.

:book:

CountArach

07-06-2009, 06:24

The best History Channel programs are the ones with the biblical doomsday prophecies. Usually around Easter.

Csargo

07-06-2009, 06:26

You forgot their doomsday programing, and their UFO conspiracies, and things that have nothing to do with history like their reality shows. :shame:

:embarassed: I stopped watching because of all that. The History Channel used to be pretty much the only channel I'd watch. Now I hardly watch any tv besides a few shows.

Hooahguy

07-06-2009, 06:41

The best History Channel programs are the ones with the biblical doomsday prophecies. Usually around Easter.
did you catch the commercials for the "when humans are gone" show? reminds me of the Rainbow Six book, where basically a bunch of lunatic scientists want to wipe out humanity (expect for themselves) so nature could regrow in places where humans had once been, with the images in my head of the possible outcome of the story if Rainbow failed looking a lot like the shots on that tv show.

i remember when the Battle BC series premiered a bunch of the historians at the EB forums were dissecting it and some of the errors it contained.
i also found it funny how the history channel can go so in depth of a battle in the bible (specifically when the Levites were commanded to kill the people who worshiped the golden calf) when only a few verses are ever attributed to that "battle" and then the historians started saying things like "the Levites were Moses's praetorian guard.
:juggle2:

Sheogorath

07-06-2009, 07:11

did you catch the commercials for the "when humans are gone" show? reminds me of the Rainbow Six book, where basically a bunch of lunatic scientists want to wipe out humanity (expect for themselves) so nature could regrow in places where humans had once been, with the images in my head of the possible outcome of the story if Rainbow failed looking a lot like the shots on that tv show.

i remember when the Battle BC series premiered a bunch of the historians at the EB forums were dissecting it and some of the errors it contained.
i also found it funny how the history channel can go so in depth of a battle in the bible (specifically when the Levites were commanded to kill the people who worshiped the golden calf) when only a few verses are ever attributed to that "battle" and then the historians started saying things like "the Levites were Moses's praetorian guard.
:juggle2:

The History Channel, when it does actual historical programming, seems to have a strong bias towards whatever the 'main character' of the show is. For example, the 'Chinas First Emperor' show makes a big deal about how Shi Huangdi's army was half a million strong, larger than Napoleons, apparently.
Besides not being able to find any information on the size of Shi Huangdi's army, it seems the Grand Armee's size is estimated to be between 550,000 and 600,000. Napoleons force used in the invasion of Russia totaled some 700,000. The Russian army at the same time had almost a million men, at its peak.
The History Channel is entertainment, not education. Sadly, they seem to have dropped all presence at 'education' recently and shifted that over to History International, which you have to pay for :\

Banquo's Ghost

07-06-2009, 07:24

The Sikhs! Sikhs! Sikhs! lodge is a satanist cult.

:book:

Now that's worthy of maestro Gregoshi. :bow:

Askthepizzaguy

07-06-2009, 12:23

Oh, I agree... as soon as they started doing religion program after religion program about the end of days.... That's not history. That's not even reality. It's fiction about the future, and poorly written at that. It belongs on the religion channels.

If they were doing a historical look at religion, that would be one thing. If they were talking about which movements shaped history, that's another. Religion is a major part of history and it should be studied and preserved as history. When religious belief about the future is marketed as history, or all these shows about Noah's Ark and other myths (involving zero science either for or against it) are being presented as history, I know they have sold out and simply become trash TV.

Even if they wanted to (taking the Noah story as an example) put forward a totally Biblical story and put a sympathetic slant on it, they could at least put up timelines and theories about when and where it happened. There's almost no educational value whatsoever. You might as well just have a dude reading from the Bible and call it religion, and not camouflage it as history.

Meneldil

07-06-2009, 12:54

Le Prieuré de Sion peurhaps? But that's an ultra-Catholic lodge, plotting against the Judeo-Bolchevik plot#to destroy religion.

However that may be, to quote Napoleon: c'est un tas d'imbéciles qui s'assemblent pour faire bonne chère et exécuter quelques folies ridicules.
('They are persons of limited intellect who gather for laffs and the execution of silly follies.')

The Prieuré de Sion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priory_of_Sion) has never existed except in the imagination of the madman who wrote about it and claimed to be a member. Dan Brown can keep on writing amateurish books about it, it won't make it a historical truth.

I'm talking about his ranks. I'm not an expert on Freemasonry, but among the many ranks of the French freemasonry (based on the Accepted Scottish Rite), I think a few use the word Sion. He was a member of the Grand Orient de France, which would hardly be an ultra-catholic lodge: it has been fighting the french Church more or less since the Revolution and had been labelled as the work of Satan by some Pope in the late 19th.

I also disagree with Napoleon's statement. Of course, french freemasonry became a joke between 1799 and 1870, mostly because the Emperors and Kings who ruled during this era did their best to infiltrate freemasonry with their own men. Cambacérès and Louis Murat became unofficial leaders of the french freemasonry respectively during the 1st and 2nd Empire.
Then, after 1870, freemasonry became a major political force in France (much more than it was in 1789, despite all the religious nutjobs claiming 1789 was the first step of a freemason plot). Most french public characters from the left and centre-left were member of one of the various lodges. The Radical Party and the Grand Orient de France were more or less the same thing. The socialist party was also strongly tied to freemasonry.
Though I don't agree at all with any conspiracy theory, it's pretty much a given that most of the laws on which the french republic is based (laïcité, separation of the church and state, the universal aim to improve Man and Society through education) are the work of 3 or 4 important french lodges.

Overall, claiming there's a vast freemason conspiracy is foolish. Each country has its own freemasonry (french freemasonry is deeply anti-religious, unlike British or American freemasonry). Some freemasons are catholics, some are protestants, some - as pointed out earlier - are jews, muslims, hindus or sikhs. Freemasonry is nowadays in Europe a lobby group with little power and a prestige that is slowly fading after each new scandal. Most of the freemasons I know (which is quite telling of the supposed secretive aspect of the group: many people keep bragging about their membership) are simply too stupid to be plotting to establish a New World Order tm.

Rhyfelwyr

07-06-2009, 12:57

There's not even any sort of consensus on the rapture idea in Christianity anyway, its just a US thing mostly. Anyway, we all know Jesus said the world would end on 21st December 2012...

The Independent Orange Order is the one I would be most likely to be involved with, they are stricter with the religious side and less on the fanciful ceremonies than the original Orange Lodge.

Hooahguy

07-06-2009, 13:39

as i was watching Patton 360, i realized that i knew all this stuff already.
so it seems like the history channel is only good for people who dont know much about history?
this is why i watch the military channel the most.

Beskar

07-06-2009, 14:25

I am not particularly well traveled in Masonry, but I am aquainted with many who are, (some of whom were WW2 vets), and I can honestly say that I have never heard anything that would point towards conspiracies involving Freemasons in WW2 or elsewhere. Moreover, an epic battle between Catholic/Jewish interests and Protestant Freemasons in Europe seems far-fetched to say the least.

Many of the important people were Freemasons, such as Hitler himself, and there are links between Freemasons in Germany and that of America, where is where Bush Jr's grandfather comes into place as his masonic lodge assisting Hitler.

This goes into other areas such as members of the Russian Communist party and others were Freemasons and received funding and finincal support for various things.

Also, why would those at the bottom know about the things at the top? The whole charity work can be seen as a front, while those at the top know what is really going on.

Sarmatian

07-06-2009, 15:27

This goes into other areas such as members of the Russian Communist party and others were Freemasons and received funding and finincal support for various things.

Members of the Russian communist party and "others", meaning those who are not members of the Russian communist party which is literally entire population of Russia, received funding for "various things" which include going to toilet, building bridges, buying Lego... The essence of conspiracy theories - anyone doing anything is potentially a Freemason (or Templar or Illuminati or Pokemon).

Narrow it down a bit, this as it is wouldn't work for a politician...

Beskar

07-06-2009, 16:09

It was a direct reference to the Bolshevik party and the politburo, I thought that would be obviously implied and not the Soviet Lego builders alliance. Funding as in overthrowing the Russian government and installing themselves as leaders.

Sarmatian

07-06-2009, 17:09

I've got it now. Not that I agree with you, but I understand what you're trying to say...

Beskar

07-06-2009, 18:57

The idea of people funding a revolution isn't necessarily hard to believe. Many aspects of the grand conspiracy are in fact, not that hard to believe.

It is just that crucial step from completely believable actions to grand conspiracy which is the biggest. It is the latter I admittedly not a convert of, however, many of the things are believable.

After all, there were things like Operation Northwoods, which are simply just facts, it just depends on making that step to the whole grand conspiracy from these things.

Hooahguy

07-06-2009, 19:18

ever seen those U-Haul trucks with the little info tidbits? i walked by one of them today from class and realized i learned more from that than i did the history channel. :smash:

Crazed Rabbit

07-06-2009, 19:25

The Prieuré de Sion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priory_of_Sion) has never existed except in the imagination of the madman who wrote about it and claimed to be a member. Dan Brown can keep on writing amateurish books about it

Oh, he will.

There is a big cabal involving many societies such as freemasonry in others which would focus its power on creating a New World, usually dictated under totalaritarian principles and even then, these forces fight amongst themselves in trying to produce this aim. Basically, it is like the "Hidden War" as on the surface, the ignorance of many is that it simply does not exist while to others, it is the whole of their existence, on many levels.

Right...

I saw on the television that the Buddist lodge fights the ultra-Catholic Sions over control of Central Asian oil and pipelines. It says so in the Chartres Cathedral labyrinth. The Sion lodge got you real good when they blew up those Buddha's in Afghanistan together with the Kabul Muslim Cabal.

Wait, there's some kind of underground religious war going on and I wasn't informed?!

CR

Kurando

07-06-2009, 21:08

Many of the important people were Freemasons, such as Hitler himself, and there are links between Freemasons in Germany and that of America, where is where Bush Jr's grandfather comes into place as his masonic lodge assisting Hitler.

This goes into other areas such as members of the Russian Communist party and others were Freemasons and received funding and finincal support for various things.

Also, why would those at the bottom know about the things at the top? The whole charity work can be seen as a front, while those at the top know what is really going on.

It is certainly true that many important people were Freemasons during the historical period 1939-1945. However, I have never heard any evidence whatsoever that Hitler (or any high ranking member of the Nazi party) was a Freemason. And I challenge you to document your statement from a reliable source. Nothing personal, but you are misinformed about this, and once you research it please have the character to stand corrected.

I get your point about "people at the top" not telling the "people on the bottom" what's actually happening, but it would be rather hard to fight a war without soldiers. Wouldn't the run-of-the-mill Masons (like myself) be soldiers? Also, it's hard to get people to fight unless you tell them what they're fighting for; by no means would it be imposible to manipulate me, but I certainly wouldn't fight in a Pseudo-Masonic war against people of a different attitudes or religions for the purpose of controling the world.

More importantly, as far as I can tell, (based on 15 years of experience), there are no "people at the top or bottom" in freemasonry; everyone is consider a brother and an equal. For example, I would not be at all intimidated to sit in lodge with a Prime Minster, a famous person, or whomever; I would just see them as a brother and an equal, and that's how they'd want to be seen. In 15 years I have never heard of a single case where someone at the "top" gave someone at the "bottom" an order. Moreover such a thing would be hard to justify because we don't follow leaders, rather, we follow our own principles, and the principles of the Masons whom I have had the honour of knowing lead us toward acts of charity and brotherhood, not toward acts of war, manipulation, or control.

Sarmatian

07-07-2009, 00:38

Moreover such a thing would be hard to justify because we don't follow leaders, rather, we follow our own principles, and the principles of the Masons whom I have had the honour of knowing lead us toward acts of charity and brotherhood, not toward acts of war, manipulation, or control.

Or that is what you want us to believe...

Hard to see the dark side is...

And now, seriously, have you ever had a chance to talk with a prime minister or someone powerful? Was there back-scratching :beam:? And don't try to weasel out of the question, certainly your Org brothers are more important than some Masons... :laugh4:

CountArach

07-07-2009, 09:37

I would severely doubt that Hitler was a freemason on the grounds that Fascism and National Socialism saw the State as being the sole loyalty of the individual. Any outside loyalties were not tolerated except insofar as they were necessary for the survival of the regime. For an example see Franco's absolute obsession with rooting out Freemasonry in Spain.

Adrian II

07-07-2009, 10:14

I would severely doubt that Hitler was a freemason on the grounds that Fascism and National Socialism saw the State as being the sole loyalty of the individual.Read Mein Kampf:

The general pacifistic paralysis of the national instinct of self preservation begun by Freemasonry in the circles of the so-called intelligentsia is transmitted to the broad masses and above all to the bourgeoisie by the activity of the big papers which today are always Jewish.
Hitler closed down the German lodges after 1933 and persecuted some of their leadership. In his eyes they represented yet another breed of 'rootless cosmopolitanism'. It was only in his talks with Hermann Rauschning that Hitler praised the Masonic model of organisation which, he said, he wanted to copy for the nazi party:

They are something of a priestly nobility. They developed an esoteric doctrine not merely formulated, but imparted through symbols and mysteries in degrees of initiation. The hierarchical organization and the initiation through symbolic rites, that is to say, without bothering the brain but by working on the imagination through magic and the symbols of a cult, all this has a dangerous element, and this element I have taken over.
Conspiracy theories are usually based on lies or misunderstandings which the believers never bother to check.

CountArach

07-07-2009, 11:15

Thank you Adrian, I was just going with an example I was more familiar with :bow:

Kurando

07-07-2009, 21:10

It was only in his talks with Hermann Rauschning that Hitler praised the Masonic model of organisation which, he said, he wanted to copy for the nazi party:

They are something of a priestly nobility. They developed an esoteric doctrine not merely formulated, but imparted through symbols and mysteries in degrees of initiation. The hierarchical organization and the initiation through symbolic rites, that is to say, without bothering the brain but by working on the imagination through magic and the symbols of a cult, all this has a dangerous element, and this element I have taken over.

Wow Adrian thanks for posting, that is extremely trippy, but thankfully it is also completely erroneous!

I say it's "trippy" because a few months ago I did some research on Hermann Rauschning after I read a weird quote atributed to Hitler on a totally unrelated topic... I had no idea that Rauschning's Conversations with Hitler had touched upon Freemasonry as well. But here's the deal:

It seems that even though Rauschning's work is still widely quoted both in print and on the net; the actual fact is that historians have long-since proven that the Conversations With Hitler document was [and is] a complete fake.

See the following commentaries from The Journal of Historical Review:
Conversations with Hitler Hoax (http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p499_Weber.html)
Swiss Historian Exposes Anti-Hitler Rauschning Memoir as Fraudulent (http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v04/v04p378_Weber.html)

"Swiss historian Wolfgang Haenel spent five years diligently investigating the memoir before announcing his findings in 1983 at a revisionist history conference in West Germany. The renowned Conversations with Hitler, he declared are a total fraud."

It amazes me that a document which has been comprehensivly debunked is still so widely quoted. I guess it's a good case in point, as you said: "conspiracy theories are usually based on lies or misunderstandings which the believers never bother to check."

On the other hand, the quote you made from Mein Kampf is undesputedly atributed to Hitler, but it seems pretty shakey ground for any one to build a conspiricy upon.

Hooahguy

07-07-2009, 21:54

See the following commentaries from The Journal of Historical Review:

im not saying you are wrong or anything, but those links you gave i find are shady, since they are from the IHR, which is a notorious Holocaust denying organization.

Adrian II

07-07-2009, 22:09

Wow Adrian thanks for posting, that is extremely trippy, but thankfully it is also completely erroneous!Easy now. I am not the one trying to prove a conspiracy. There seems to be doubt about Rauschning, that's right, though this Hänel fellow should keep better company if he, in turn, wants to be taken seriously. As a historian I wouldn't want to be associated with the site you linked to.

I guess in Rauschning's favour we should say that as a former nazi and Hitler admirer, he knew the regime from the inside. He wrote a very good analysis of it, Die Revolution des Nihilismus (1938), from which he quotes in his Parisian book Hitler m'a dit (1939). Even if the exact quotes from the latter are dubious, I wouldn't discard the book entirely.

And it doesn't refute my main point that Hitler hated freemasons. They were a popular scapegoat. Erich Ludendorff blamed them for losing WWI in 1918.

Louis VI the Fat

07-08-2009, 05:50

I once saw a documentary that exposed clear links between masons Rauschning, Hitler, Hänel, Hänsel and Gretel.

It was very compelling. :book:

Brenus

07-08-2009, 07:00

“The Prieuré de Sion has never existed except in the imagination of the madman who wrote about it and claimed to be a member. Dan Brown can keep on writing amateurish books about it”
Technically it did. The 2 people who invented it were surrealist so they created a reality. :laugh4:

Kurando

07-08-2009, 08:56

Easy now. I am not the one trying to prove a conspiracy...

And it doesn't refute my main point that Hitler hated freemasons. They were a popular scapegoat. Erich Ludendorff blamed them for losing WWI in 1918.

Hehe, I should have added a few smileys to my post, I defently wasn't implying that you were trying to prove a conspiracy. Not your style, do so, or mine to give you the high hat. :beam:

As you say it seems clear that Hitler had a problem with Masons; though thankfully not to the extent that Franco did or things might have gotten really really ugly for some of the Allied POWs, and many others in the mix.

I appreciate the criticism of the IHR, they have no credibility in anyone's eyes + I should have provided better links because there are some. It just seems like the modern day denier element have taken a shine to the fact that Haenel debunked Rauschning in the earily 1980's + I think the Zeitgeschichtliche Forschungsstelle Ingolstadt where Haenel presented his findings was perhaps a for-runner of this type of denal jive also; so your point is well taken.

:wall:

Man this stuff is so frustrating, I never know what to think when it comes to the net. Seems like the only thing which is certain is that Hitler was positively not a Mason. For anything else I am just going to go with my own personal experience of being a Mason and my close association with others who are. My eye is not all seeing like the one on the dollar bill, but from what my eyes have seen, things are on the level: no conspiracies, no world domination, and no uncertainty on my part to say so.

Adrian II

07-08-2009, 10:32

Man this stuff is so frustrating, I never know what to think when it comes to the net.I know. In revisionist circles 'five years of study' could mean anything. I have always known that Rauschning's book was more impressionistic than literally accurate, but I didn't know it had been unmasked as a deliberate fake. I don't have the Hänel book obviously, but I happen to have the original Hitler m'a dit in my library. At first I thought it was rather fishy when Hänel wrote that Rauschning claimed to have had 'over a hundred conversations' with Hitler, because nowhere in the book does Rauschning claim that number. But apparently this is what he said to his Paris editor Reves, who confirmed this to Hänel personally.

What is even more puzzling, in hindsight, is the little Goethe quote that precedes the Foreword:

Ist es schatten, ist es wirklichkeit?
Wie wird mein pudel lang und breit!

Is it shadow, is it reality?
How my poodle is growing tall and strong!

If the conversations in the book are not reality, they certainly are reality's shadow. Rauschning seems to have had an uncanning ability to gauge Hitler, his motifs, his plans and schemes. Take page 155, where he mimicks Hitler's attitude toward Russia: I may, as a last resort, decide to ally with Russia, but it should be a surprise, like a good poker hand. And even if I do, nothing will stop me from attacking Russia regardless, as soon as it suits me.

I've looked into the more serious sources, such as Der Spiegel and Stern. Mind you, Stern has a dented reputation as well - remember the fake Hitler diaries? So I wouldn't easily accept their judgement either. But both weeklies are very firm in their conviction that Hänel did a good job. And several academic history sites as well as acclaimed historians like Ian Kershaw appear to be convinced by Hänel 's research.

I once saw a documentary that exposed clear links between masons Rauschning, Hitler, Hänel, Hänsel and Gretel.

It was very compelling. :book:Must have been on the History Channel. Kurando and his millions of freemason friends are all in on this thing as well.

Now Louis, about that handshake of yours.. :inquisitive:

Adrian II

07-08-2009, 23:56

Wolfgang Hänel wrote (according to various reviews I saw) that Rauschning took a passage from Guy de Maupassant's short story Le Horla and put the words in Hitler's mouth. Apparently this is the passage where Hitler claimed to see the devil.

The devil's name in the story is 'le Horla', a name construed by Maupassant himself and probably derived from 'hors de là' (beyond there) or 'hors la loi' (beyond the law).

In Rauschning's book on page 284 it says Hitler 'called for help' one night and, perched on the side of his bed and shaking in panic, muttered: 'C'est lui, c'est lui. Il est venu ici!' (It's him, it's him. He has come here!). A few moments later he supposedly cried out: 'Là! Là! dans le coin. Qui est là?' ('There! There! in the corner. Who is that?').

Well, the passage in Maupassant (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/10775/10775-h/10775-h.htm) is not the same, just slightly similar. It reads: 'Le Horla... c'est lui... le Horla... il est venu !...' ('The Horla... it's him... the Horla... he has come!...').

Hitler's words in Rauschning may be fake as Hänel claims, but it is highly improbable that this passage was taken from Maupassant.