Completing the Spartan Agoge

[Napoletana]

Hey everyone, i'm new to the forums and I just want to start off saying how much I love Europa Barbarorum, everyone has done an excellent job and I can't wait for Europa Barbarorum II!

I am currently campaigning with Makedonia, and my question is about completing the Spartan Agoge in Sparte, which i recently captured. Whenever a family member comes of age, the advisor warns me that he is ready to compete and I should bring him there but with 'potential drawbacks'. I am wondering what these potential drawbacks might be. Is there any game code that might help me?

Another question, after the 4 years are completed, i notice my family member has acquired a trait which gives him +1 influence and +1 morale boost on the field. Is that it??? Hardly worth training him for 8 seasons in Sparte.

Keep up the good work guys, and keep up those steles! Can't wait for a Roman one.

[option]

If you pull him out, he usually gets penalties instead. Every once in a while you'll get a guy who'll manage to pick up 'Excelled in Spartan Agoge', which gives him double the bonuses. Build a nice academy in Sparta and your characters will pick up some good ancillaries while they're completing it.

[Napoletana]

hmm, so +2 influence and +2 morale for troops? I still think that is not enough for someone who has completed 4 years of tough training like that in the Spatan Agoge.

I certainly believe that there should be some command boost, perhaps +1 or +2 for excelled, but perhaps even a +1 hitpoints boost?

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Yeah I was a little disappointed in the Agoge results too during my first Makedon campaign. Didn't seem all that worth it to me. There definately should be a command boost considering how hard it is to get stars as Graeco-Roman factions.

[Belisarius II]

At least your generals can have bragging rights.

m'Lord, the enemy has out numbered our forces by 7 to 1!
Where are they?
m'Lord?
I said where are they! Have you forgotten that I am a Spartan! I do not ask how many of the enemy there are, but where they are!

And that's how the Romans conquered Greece so easily. https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/smilies/gc/gc-clown.gif

[teh1337tim]

you really want to fear the rath of the mighty makedonian phalangites sticking very long poky things into your lorica hamata dont you....


Hey... i find the agoge especially good... build a school there and max the education out at athens.

I think persues is already 2 command stars 7 management and 6 influence by age 24

2 more years... good bye romani.... persues is coming for you

[Napoletana]

At least your generals can have bragging rights.

m'Lord, the enemy has out numbered our forces by 7 to 1!
Where are they?
m'Lord?
I said where are they! Have you forgotten that I am a Spartan! I do not ask how many of the enemy there are, but where they are!

And that's how the Romans conquered Greece so easily. https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/smilies/gc/gc-clown.gif

haha true

[Cute Wolf]

True, with academy on Sparta, my young FMs who spent their youth lives here will usually get massive boost on influence and management, but due to KH's unique racial traits, I usually sent just Spartans and Kretans there... the rest better learn poetic skill and softer education in either Athenai or Rhodos

[Cute Wolf]

m'Lord, the enemy has out numbered our forces by 7 to 1!
Where are they?
m'Lord?
I said where are they! Have you forgotten that I am a Spartan! I do not ask how many of the enemy there are, but where they are!

"Imperator, the spartans have deployed for battle."
The Consul " What spartans, what I can see is a bunch of boy lovers":oops:
And that's how the Romans conquered Greece so easily.

Copyright @ Belisarius II

Cheers.

Please note that those "spartans" in EB timeframe has relaxed their Agoge system and had lower morale and fighting skills as the result. If u want to portay they repaired their agoge wholeheartedly, you could start giving them 2 Hp in EDU, raise their cost to 5096, upkeep to 874, and look 300 of them could hold countless enemies....

[Labrat]

Please note that those "spartans" in EB timeframe has relaxed their Agoge system and had lower morale and fighting skills as the result. If u want to portay they repaired their agoge wholeheartedly, you could start giving them 2 Hp in EDU, raise their cost to 5096, upkeep to 874, and look 300 of them could hold countless enemies....

Yes, like the 300 picked Spartans completely owned 300 picked Argives at the Battle of Champions. Oh, wait...

The Spartans were no doubt the best hoplite force in history, but they were not superhumans. Remember that they got their reputation as the ultimate warrior from fighting other Greeks. They were the only professional force in a world of part-time soldiers. The Battle of Champions proves that the elite forces of a strong city state were quite able to match the best the Spartans had to offer. The Spartans, however, had the advantage of their rank-and-file being far better trained.

[Maion Maroneios]

Indeed, while they were probably the best hoplites they weren't the best infantrymen in the world. When it comes down to it, Spartans were human beings. And humans beings have an instinct of survival, which means they were not unbreakable.

Maion

[Celtic_Punk]

At least your generals can have bragging rights.

m'Lord, the enemy has out numbered our forces by 7 to 1!
Where are they?
m'Lord?
I said where are they! Have you forgotten that I am a Spartan! I do not ask how many of the enemy there are, but where they are!

And that's how the Romans conquered Greece so easily. https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/smilies/gc/gc-clown.gif

m'Lord, the enemy has out numbered our forces by 7 to 1!
Where are they?
m'Lord?
Where are they?
We should sound the retreat!
Where are they?
They'll be here soon!!!!
Where are they?
We have no chance m'lord!
Where are they?
EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF!
.... Where are they?

[Watchman]

The rather major difference to rope pulling being that with the rope all the rear-rankers can actually "add their weight" to it. Something that's going to be rather physically difficult in a collective pushing match beyond something like ten ranks tops.

[Phalanx300]

The rather major difference to rope pulling being that with the rope all the rear-rankers can actually "add their weight" to it. Something that's going to be rather physically difficult in a collective pushing match beyond something like ten ranks tops.

I think that crowd control tests where they measure the pure power produced by panicking humans would disagree with that.

Obviously there is a difference but I think its something you can closely compare it with, coordination and discipline wins over pure power but when you get such odds pure power simply wins.(as example, Thebans did obviously had discipline as well)

[Watchman]

I think that crowd control tests where they measure the pure power produced by panicking humans would disagree with that.Panicking mobs also crush and suffocate quite a few of their members to death, one notes...

[mountaingoat]

Indeed, while they were probably the best hoplites they weren't the best infantrymen in the world. When it comes down to it, Spartans were human beings. And humans beings have an instinct of survival, which means they were not unbreakable.

Maion

"if it bleeds , we can kill it " - predator

[Phalanx300]

Panicking mobs also crush and suffocate quite a few of their members to death, one notes...

Which wasn't rare in Hoplite combat with massed numbers was it? I mean there were occasions where the dead stood there ground because of the pressure applied! Would be weird trough, seeing your friend dead but still standing..


"if it bleeds , we can kill it " - predator

I gues they were seen like that before Pylos, even though they first asked Sparta what they should do.

[Cute Wolf]

At least, what we should do to emulate is either made Spartans stronger, or cheapned their current (unmodified EB) costs... it was weird to see a "supposedly elite" units that produced from 5th tier of MIC gettin outclassed by Epilektoi from 4th tier

EDIT: I do the first for myself (2HP, very exspensive, they are stongest units in my game har har har...)

[Watchman]

Which wasn't rare in Hoplite combat with massed numbers was it? I mean there were occasions where the dead stood there ground because of the pressure applied! Would be weird trough, seeing your friend dead but still standing...Meaning the men in the phalanx were closely enuough packed the dead had no room to fall down. Which isn't quite the same as them having died of the crush itself you know.

More to the point, the crush would be at its most intense at the very front of the file, where the de facto "NCO" of the bunch - the file-leader - was; or picked elite "spearhead" troops such as the Theban Sacred Band. This would duly result in rather disproportionate number of casualties due to the supposed excessive pressure among such highly valuable fighting men...
Does Not Compute.
Nevermind now that these guys also *did* have enough room to employ first spears and then swords actively.

[Phalanx300]

Meaning the men in the phalanx were closely enuough packed the dead had no room to fall down. Which isn't quite the same as them having died of the crush itself you know.

More to the point, the crush would be at its most intense at the very front of the file, where the de facto "NCO" of the bunch - the file-leader - was; or picked elite "spearhead" troops such as the Theban Sacred Band. This would duly result in rather disproportionate number of casualties due to the supposed excessive pressure among such highly valuable fighting men...
Does Not Compute.
Nevermind now that these guys also *did* have enough room to employ first spears and then swords actively.

I said it as two not tied examples, there are records of men dying from lack of breathe.

But the very shape of an Aspis makes it possible for such a formation, as you'll notice the chest has enough place to continue breathing! Most probably casualties of the push were those with either lower training but I think its more likely to be because of weaker armour. I mean I'd rather be in bronze in an sandwhich then in linnen right?

When using overhand you can form a very dense formation, when the spear became useless you could draw your sword to continue fighting (the form of the Aspis also makes this possible, though it'll be harder to do with longer swords.

[Watchman]

I said it as two not tied examples, there are records of men dying from lack of breathe.

But the very shape of an Aspis makes it possible for such a formation, as you'll notice the chest has enough place to continue breathing! Most probably casualties of the push were those with either lower training but I think its more likely to be because of weaker armour. I mean I'd rather be in bronze in an sandwhich then in linnen right?Sounds like a pretty faulty theory, seeing as there were periods when hoplites wore no body armour at all. Seems to me like "deaths by the crush" were rather occasional accidents that happened when something went wrong, most likely, the formation became excessively compressed under pressure.

When using overhand you can form a very dense formation, when the spear became useless you could draw your sword to continue fighting (the form of the Aspis also makes this possible, though it'll be harder to do with longer swords.You know, the Spartans at least had an "extra-dense" order AFAIK chiefly used when rock-solid resistance to enemy charges was an overriding priority; this because even with their level of drill and training proper offensive maneuvering was nigh impossible... the acute lack of space cannot really have assisted effective weapon use either, though the noted Spartan preference for *very* short swords probably helped there.

[Phalanx300]

Sounds like a pretty faulty theory, seeing as there were periods when hoplites wore no body armour at all. Seems to me like "deaths by the crush" were rather occasional accidents that happened when something went wrong, most likely, the formation became excessively compressed under pressure.

You're probably right here, perhaps if an Hoplite was holding his shield in a wrong way during impact maybe he wouldn't be able to breathe later on.



You know, the Spartans at least had an "extra-dense" order AFAIK chiefly used when rock-solid resistance to enemy charges was an overriding priority; this because even with their level of drill and training proper offensive maneuvering was nigh impossible... the acute lack of space cannot really have assisted effective weapon use either, though the noted Spartan preference for *very* short swords probably helped there.

I see a Spartan Phalanx as a very dense long block which marches at great unison, with hands with spears in an overhand motion sticking out of it in order to still be able to hit the enemy no matter how densely compressed.

Their short sword does indeed mean that the Spartans fought in a dense formation, in more one on one fighting you would rather have a long sword then the short sword of the Spartans.

[antisocialmunky]

I usually send total failures there in hopes that they might have something good happen to them. No luck so far. The only rule of thumb I have is that sending anyone with city manager background traits tend to fail spectacularly and you're better off letting him sit on his butt embezzling some of the tons of money he makes for you.

[bovi]

I deleted the offending posts and reopened, in case someone wants to further discuss the Agoge.

[Napoletana]

thanks, now that we are back on topic...

So I think I know how to mod the "export_descr_character_traits" file to change the boost, but I am still unsure of what bonuses to change it to, to keep the game balanced but give it a further advantage.

Perhaps a +1 Command, +1 Influence, +1 morale for all troops on battlefield, and +1 Hitpoints for the general? I know that in EB it seems harder to gain Hitpoints from traits, but i have also noticed that a few traits deduct hitpoints, which i think is completely unreasonable. Alright, I agree if the family member has health problems, vulnerable to sickness, etc, but the trait 'scholarly', at level 3 and 4 (scholastic and pedantic) each reduce a hitpoint...??? Does reading too much make you weak?

So if you could post your opinion on what the change should be to keep balance in the game but still make it a worthwhile advantage.

Thanks

[MerlinusCDXX]

Napoletana, I'd say your proposed boni are spot on. The harsh conditions students operated under would give someone a certain toughness, I'd be willing to say it's about a HP worth. Command, well I don't know that Spartan training was all that in this period, since there are higher standards of professionalism in the militaries of this era than there were during the Spartans' heyday, but I like the pretty command stars on my characters, so I'll go with it.

[Phalanx300]

I wouldn't be so sure of that, the Agoge is recorded as the hardest training ever to have been in use. (where it wasn't weird for children to be hit and whipped etc.)

[Watchman]

I don't really see how that's supposed to make them any better strategists and tacticians though.

[Phalanx300]

Because it didn't only stay with whipping ofcourse, writing and reading were also part of it, as was psycical training, and athetic competitions. And I think their training in the Phalanx and their discipline made them wanted as officers/generals in non Spartan armies.

[Maion Maroneios]

Only the basics of reading and writing were taught, but I agree the Spartans were the creme de la creme of [hoplite] warfare. Possibly why the Carthaginians hired Xanthippus in the first place for example.

Maion

[Macilrille]

I have sometimes given the subject of Viking command some thought.

The Vikings had no writing, did they pass on military experience and knowledge or did they have to start from scratch every time a new warlord took over?

There is of course no answer, for nothing of the sort of a Viking "Art of War" has been passed on to us, and I expect there was none. But we still often see them using very complicated tactics and strategy and there are glimpses in some Sagas.

I surmise that every warlord (Earl, king, Magnate) would tell his son the basics and that they may even have trained some. But that all was orally passed on and only in the inner circle of leaders.

Can the Maks not have had something similar? Not all knowledge is passed in writing...

[antisocialmunky]

That's assuming that the Viking sucessor didn't go raiding or fighting other vikings and see commands in action. Then they probably fought under their warlord fathers, gradually getting more and more experience.

If you're wanting to compare it to Macedon, Alexander was first schooled, then fought with his father, witnessed battles and then got command of the Companions as a test of his abilities.

[Macilrille]

Exactly.

[Watchman]

Possibly why the Carthaginians hired Xanthippus in the first place for example.Or because it had dawned to them their army was rather out of shape and needed a suitably stern taskmaster to whip them back into fighting trim. Which AFAIK is exactly what X. did.


Because it didn't only stay with whipping ofcourse, writing and reading were also part of it, as was psycical training, and athetic competitions. And I think their training in the Phalanx and their discipline made them wanted as officers/generals in non Spartan armies.At most that'd make them relatively skilled in infantry tactics (recalling the general problems the Spartans had regarding cavalry), and frankly from what I know of it phalanx drill wasn't a terribly central part of the curriculum (or in any case, meaningfully more so than among the ephebes of other poleis). The point was AFAIK more sheer physical and mental conditioning.

[Maion Maroneios]

Or because it had dawned to them their army was rather out of shape and needed a suitably stern taskmaster to whip them back into fighting trim. Which AFAIK is exactly what X. did.

At most that'd make them relatively skilled in infantry tactics (recalling the general problems the Spartans had regarding cavalry), and frankly from what I know of it phalanx drill wasn't a terribly central part of the curriculum (or in any case, meaningfully more so than among the ephebes of other poleis). The point was AFAIK more sheer physical and mental conditioning.
Also, but that is basically included in the harsh Agoge training, no? I wouldn't be able to think of anyone better than a Spartan Strategos for that job.

Maion

[Watchman]

Exact. I mean, what were the Spartans *really* known for ? By Xanthippos' time definitely not any kind of invincibility - recalling the Thebans here - but stern discipline and whatnot, certainly. Who better to hire to drill your demoralised troops back into shape then ?

[Maion Maroneios]

No, no invincibility for sure. And that's certainly one of the most important factors on which the Spartans based their strength on; the unwillingness of the enemy to face them head-on due to their fearsome reputation of invincibility. But that goes a bit away from the original discussion :tongue:

Maion

[Aper]

I modded my traits-file this way:

Barely completed Agoge: +1 influence, +1 morale, +1 HP
Completed Agoge: +2 influence, +2 morale, +2 HP
Excelled Agoge: +3 influence, +3 morale, +3 HP

So that even if your character is a lazy dumbass you gain some bonuses after so many years of training.
Maybe the HP bonuses are too much, but I feel that apart from RPG reasons, the vanilla bonuses are definitevely not worth the effort.

[MerlinusCDXX]

So, though the lazy dumbass still picks his nose in public while daydreaming, but at least he can take a beating. And maybe they beat some of the more stupid responses he utters out of him completely. So he's still dumb and lazy, but learned the hard way that shutting up once in a while is a good idea.:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4: Now, if only I could learn this. :laugh4::laugh4:

When I made the comment about the training in this period not being all that, I just meant that during the EB period, most Hellenistic armies were getting better at soldierly discipline than they had been in the 5th and 6th century BC, so that, perhaps the 'modern' Spartan training didn't cover as large of a gap as it did during Sparta's heyday. No disrespect was intended, the men that completed that training would still be very good soldiers, hence the HP bonus due to the extreme physical conditioning. I just don't know if the Agoge excelled at teaching 'modern' combined arms strategies and tactics, as the Spartans were a very conservative society.

* by 'modern' I mean what would be considered modern in the 3rd century BC.

[Dutchhoplite]

I modded my traits-file this way:

Barely completed Agoge: +1 influence, +1 morale, +1 HP
Completed Agoge: +2 influence, +2 morale, +2 HP
Excelled Agoge: +3 influence, +3 morale, +3 HP

So that even if your character is a lazy dumbass you gain some bonuses after so many years of training.
Maybe the HP bonuses are too much, but I feel that apart from RPG reasons, the vanilla bonuses are definitevely not worth the effort.

In what file did you do that??

[bovi]

EDCT (export_descr_character_traits.txt)

[Dutchhoplite]

Thanks! Is this all (?) and when i do this is it save compatible??

[Darius]

No, it's not save game compatible, sorry.