View Full Version : Positioning units for bridge defences
Hi all,
I purchased STW: Warlord Edition some years back but never got around to playing it. I've now got it installed and have been experimenting with the campaign. Aside from using guns & advanced cavalry, I think I've had experience with most aspects of the game now, so I'm about to settle in to a campaign for the long haul.
However, there is one thing I still haven't figured out: why do my troops move when I haven't ordered them to? This seems to happen to me most often in bridge battles, but I'm pretty sure I've seen it occur elsewhere too.
This happens when their morale is at Steady - i.e. below impetuous but not even close to routing (and indeed, they will listen if I tell them to go somewhere besides whatever spot randomly picked). It happens even after I've clicked the "Hold Position" button that's immediately left of the archers' "fire at will." (Which, if I understand correctly, tells the units not to retreat away from Archer fire on their own?) It happens when they're Fresh and they're tired. In short, they will move despite my controlling everything I would think would make them stay still under ordered otherwise.
As I said, it seems to happen most in bridge battles (when I'm defending), where it's enough to make me pull my hair out. At first I thought they might be trying to get disentangled from other formations - I do tend to stack the units pretty close together, and all in loose formation - but they often get themselves even more jumbled together, so it's a terrible job if that's what's happening. Can someone enlighten me as to why they do this and how I might stop it, or at least manage it in a fashion that's not like a game of "whack-an-insubordinate-mole"?
As I said, it seems to happen most in bridge battles (when I'm defending), where it's enough to make me pull my hair out. At first I thought they might be trying to get disentangled from other formations - I do tend to stack the units pretty close together, and all in loose formation - but they often get themselves even more jumbled together, so it's a terrible job if that's what's happening. Can someone enlighten me as to why they do this and how I might stop it, or at least manage it in a fashion that's not like a game of "whack-an-insubordinate-mole"?
It's most likely that your units are too crowded. Units in STW/MTW will not intermingle unless they are actually engaging an enemy unit in "engage at will" mode. The units will try to stay in distinct blocks at all other times. It's common near bridges because it gets crowded more easily there and you cannot actually deploy right up to the water's edge. Try not to position your units so close together and keep them back from the bridge. You generally only need 2 or three defensive units directly in front of the bridge. Naginta or YS are good for this role. If you place them too close during deployment they will move out as soon as the battle starts - this can be disastrous.
How are you positioning your units? I tend to favour click and drag selection to get my units positioned both before and during battle.
:bow:
Units get very frustrated when being mingled with other units, or even when being very close. Also, being too close to the border, or being too close to water might make 'em do weird things.
Usually you can just order them to get back where they were, and they'll wait a few minutes before they start walking away again.
If you want them to stay in position all the time, you have to properly separate them. :)
Good luck!
It's most likely that your units are too crowded.
Ah, so that is the problem. I guess I'll have to loosen my spacing for those river battles. As you say, you generally don't need more than a couple units at a time to hold the bridge.
Naginta or YS are good for this role. If you place them too close during deployment they will move out as soon as the battle starts - this can be disastrous.
Yes, this is exactly what has happened to me at times - all my Yari Sams turning and walking away at the start of the battle! I like to keep my Naginata & Yari Sams near the bridge standing pretty close, so that I can easily defend with one or the other depending on whether my enemy brings cavalry or foot soldiers; but I guess I'll just have to give them more space, and perhaps simply commit to opening the defense with one or the other.
How are you positioning your units? I tend to favour click and drag selection to get my units positioned both before and during battle.
I tend to just click, and use ALT + Click at times to make sure they face the right way. That two-step process isn't exactly quick, though, so perhaps I should use the drag positioning more.
Also, being too close to the border, or being too close to water might make 'em do weird things.
Ah, that would explain why bridge battles are particularly troublesome.
Good luck!
Thanks. :)
Welcome to the Sword Dojo Kloreep.
Welcome to the Org, Kloreep! ~:cheers:
Positioning is indeed key to keeping your units from "shuffling" about, especially on defensive bridge battles. I tend to use either a "V" formation or "trapezoid" formation, depending on whether I'm deploying 2 or 3 units at the end of the bridge (respectively); this seems to do a good job of keeping my troops still, so long as they're not bunched up.
EDIT: You should let us know how things turn out! I'm curious to see how it goes. ~:)
I also favour a "chevron" formation when defending bridges, though a box formation may work better in many cases (especially if you have enough units of the right type to pull it off). This strategy works better than placing a few units facing the bridge as it means the enemy are immediately flanked when they cross the bridge. Keep them under fire with your archers and you will break their resolve soon enough.
ReluctantSamurai
07-10-2009, 19:33
I tend to take a similar approach when defending bridges. Getting too close to the waters edge will bring your units under archer/teppo fire from the opposite bank......something you want to stay away from when defending against a multiple-stack invasion (where you really need to minimize losses).
I keep my troops far enough away from the river to force enemy archers/teppo to have to cross to my side or bunch up on the bridge. I generally keep a loose horseshoe formation with infantry to the front backed up by archers. When guns become available, holding bridges is so easy it's almost a crime.....even against 3000-5000 attackers:dizzy2:
I conserve my cavalry for crossing the bridge to chase off enemy CA and SA after all enemy infantry and cav have routed off the map.
Thanks for all the welcomes and replies. :)
Making the enemy's bridge approach one side of a triangle sounds like a good suggestion. At the start of the game, I sometimes only have one or two units, so there's not much for it but to put them right up at the bridge foot. I've continued to just place a unit or two right in front of the bridge even when I have more soldiers, figuring that keeping the enemy on the bridge is the best way to disadvantage them. Really, though, coming from all sides sounds a lot more effective.
Staying away from the bridge area as a whole is an interesting suggestion as well, and one I hadn't considered. I'm usually too tempted to line my own archers up along the riverbank to consider keeping my troops out of enemy archer fire. (Guns are the one game element I haven't had experience with yet, so I guess that will be a new element for me to figure out as I play a campaign through.) Exactly how far do you keep them away? Maybe I should search around on youtube for some examples; this seems like a game where very marginal shifts can make a huge difference.
If you read some of the campaign reports here I`m sure you`ll come across screenshots etc. of some of the resident players defending bridges, they might help you out.
ReluctantSamurai
07-11-2009, 14:51
Really, though, coming from all sides sounds a lot more effective.
A lot more effective. You get flanking attacks and attacks to the enemy rear when they rout.
Exactly how far do you keep them away?
The best way to figure this out is to set up a custom battle with archers/teppo on the enemy side. After a few battles you'll get a feel for how far to stay back:yes:
Another suggestion is to remove the fire-at-will from your archers/teppo. This conserves ammo in large battles and allows you to rake enemy units as they cross the bridge. I usually group my archers so they fire as one unit. As soon as an enemy unit(s) become engaged with my own infantry, I move their fire onto units crowded on the bridge. You cause a lot more casualties that way for the same amount of ammunition.
When facing multiple stacks, I try keep several archers in reserve (if I have them available). Even with micro-management, you'll still run out of arrows at some point. Tuck those archers that are out of arrows to the rear (or withdraw them if you have reserves, though I wouldn't count on getting them onto the battlefield when you need them), and move fresh ones to the front.
In large, multi-stack battles, try and refrain from using ammo on reduced-size units. The AI favorite unit to do this with is CA. It'll prance those dozen or so (for example) CA's all over the place making you use up precious arrows shooting at them. Better to chase them off for good with your own cavalry or just hold your fire and wait for the main enemy reinforcements to arrive. The damage caused by these broken units is usually minimal and not worth tiring out your units by giving chase.
Again, use the custom battle generator to play around with units and techniques.....it's much better than getting your head handed to you during a game because you were unfamiliar with how things work:2thumbsup:
Another suggestion is to remove the fire-at-will from your archers/teppo.
For archers, yes, I'd say: use the arrows only when they will do much damage. For teppo... ehh, they have almost unlimited ammo anyway?
I move their fire onto units crowded on the bridge. You cause a lot more casualties that way for the same amount of ammunition.
I do the same! :beam: Also because I thought it would be harsch firing into the engaged units. I would also hit my own.
Yet, I have no clue if this little strategy of ours really pays off in numbers. I guess so.
How I usually deploy in bridge defense nowadays:
https://img149.imageshack.us/img149/5119/naamloos136.jpg
red being archers, black melee inf. probably yari samurai. I dislike it when my infantry needs to run through archers to block the incoming enemy. this way, my archers can keep firing for a long time (since no yari's are running through them), and I can still block the enemy when they get too close. Usually, any enemy routs when my yari's charge. I usually don't let them engage. I do often fire the routing units, it seems to cause a good deal of casulties. that is, if they're crowded. espcially when you're outnumbered, it's important that ALL of your arrows are spent well. I usually use 2-3 archer units when a delegation of the enemy army crosses. when they get close-yari charge-rout-wait, and it starts over again. I don't need all archer units on the first line. some can wait, and replace the units in line when they run out of ammo.
If you're out of ammo and the enemy is still outnumbering you... I'd say, consider running away to minimize your losses. However, most of the time you can still win. the enemy is tired and has low morale by this time. the formation above seems to work fine for a final battle too. It ensures that you charge both the front and the flank of the incoming enemies. usually you can rout the entire bunch and chase them to the border. if they don't rout, you'll have to fight it out! :beam:
ReluctantSamurai
07-13-2009, 13:25
For archers, yes, I'd say: use the arrows only when they will do much damage. For teppo... ehh, they have almost unlimited ammo anyway?
Most of the time I'd agree with you. But..............in my last Oda 1580 camp I had 3 teppo with my defending army at Mikawa and all three were run out of ammo with FaW disabled:dizzy2:
I think there's a screenee of that battle in my Nobunaga's Ambition AAR..............
Yet, I have no clue if this little strategy of ours really pays off in numbers. I guess so.
If the number of dead bodies after a bridge battle is any indication, then I would think it does because the greatest concentration seems to be always on the bridge itself....................
Most of the time I'd agree with you. But..............in my last Oda 1580 camp I had 3 teppo with my defending army at Mikawa and all three were run out of ammo with FaW disabled:dizzy2:
That's odd, I've never had Teppo run out of ammo. Was a particularly long drawn out battle?
If the number of dead bodies after a bridge battle is any indication, then I would think it does because the greatest concentration seems to be always on the bridge itself....................
In bridge defences I tend to single out a unit towards the rear of the bridge and target that with all my archers. This way your archers fire a bit more over the heads of your own units but do still hit the other enemy units in front of the targetted unit.
ReluctantSamurai
07-14-2009, 13:42
That's odd, I've never had Teppo run out of ammo. Was a particularly long drawn out battle?
http://imgcash1.imageshack.us/Himg517/scaled.php?server=517&filename=135dv5.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480
https://imgcash3.imageshack.us/Himg120/scaled.php?server=120&filename=136go0.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480
I had two units of muskets with this army. When they ran out of ammo I withdrew them because they are, as I'm sure you know, quite useless in melee combat. Note the number of kills directly on the bridge and that few enemy units even managed to cross onto land on my side of the river:beam: The attacking army was cavalry heavy especially CA & NC. They just wouldn't quit:dizzy2:
In bridge defences I tend to single out a unit towards the rear of the bridge and target that with all my archers. This way your archers fire a bit more over the heads of your own units but do still hit the other enemy units in front of the targetted unit.
And this instant retargeting of units makes me appreciate the STW battle system all the more. RTW's system is extremely annoying......archers fire 3 extra volley's after you give the order to either stop or target another unit:furious3: The only way I found to prevent that is to order the unit to move and then immediately halt them. I always get more friendly-fire casualties in RTW than in STW despite this..........:furious3:
http://imgcash1.imageshack.us/Himg517/scaled.php?server=517&filename=135dv5.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480
https://imgcash3.imageshack.us/Himg120/scaled.php?server=120&filename=136go0.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480
I had two units of muskets with this army. When they ran out of ammo I withdrew them because they are, as I'm sure you know, quite useless in melee combat. Note the number of kills directly on the bridge and that few enemy units even managed to cross onto land on my side of the river:beam: The attacking army was cavalry heavy especially CA & NC. They just wouldn't quit:dizzy2:
Well they were definitely worth the money.
And this instant retargeting of units makes me appreciate the STW battle system all the more. RTW's system is extremely annoying......archers fire 3 extra volley's after you give the order to either stop or target another unit:furious3: The only way I found to prevent that is to order the unit to move and then immediately halt them. I always get more friendly-fire casualties in RTW than in STW despite this..........:furious3:
Yes, well I won't go into RTW's pros and cons, but all in all missiles are far better represented in STW/MTW. In terms of the physics in particular STW/MTW's arrows are quite realistic. RTW's are not realistic by any standards.
All in all that's probably just one of the myriad of reasons why most of us stick to, or keep coming back to, this fine game.
:bow:
Togakure
07-16-2009, 15:18
Ashi teppo units aren't necessarily useless once they run out of ammo. If you put them in hold formation and keep them together for better morale, they can be used to delay or divert enemy units, and if you have cav or fast flanking infantry available (nods, monks), engaging with your ashi fodder can tie up a superior enemy unit long enough to get in a good flank or rear attack. If the ashis rout, no big deal as samurai morale isn't affected.
One quarter of my most often used Samurai Warlords MP armies is comprised of four ashigaru spearmen (4 yashis, 4 teppos, 4 Yari Cav, 3 Monk, 1 Hata gen). Ashis are weak units, but extremely handy for block and delay (they are fast), and as a deterrent to solitary cavalry skirmish attacks when kept in pairs. I've even managed to use them effectively to block and delay warrior monks (TosaInu may remember that battle; they were his monks :beam:). My ashis eventually routed of course, but they bought my cav and monks time to return to that area in force, which saved that game.
Ashi teppo units aren't necessarily useless once they run out of ammo. If you put them in hold formation and keep them together for better morale, they can be used to delay or divert enemy units, and if you have cav or fast flanking infantry available (nods, monks), engaging with your ashi fodder can tie up a superior enemy unit long enough to get in a good flank or rear attack. If the ashis rout, no big deal as samurai morale isn't affected.
I only play SP battles (as part of a campaign), but I have had to deploy Teppo Ashigaru similarly to how you describe. This is probably due to me fielding rather too many of them however. It's not so great when you turn up for battle and it's raining heavily and your army is mostly Teppo...
I find that their lack of morale is more than made up for with their morale affecting armament - especially in defensive battles.
:bow:
I find that their lack of morale is more than made up for with their morale affecting armament - especially in defensive battles.
:bow:
You just highlighted what is -- for me, at least -- a key limitation on ashi teppo units: I only truly find them useful in defensive battles. When attacking, I almost never employ them at all. Their range is too short, and can be too easily flanked since I prefer to attack over more open terrain as a general rule.
Of course, to be fair, I usually don't use Sam Archers a lot in offensive battles either, but I still find them to be at least more useful than arq/musket troops.
You just highlighted what is -- for me, at least -- a key limitation on ashi teppo units: I only truly find them useful in defensive battles. When attacking, I almost never employ them at all. Their range is too short, and can be too easily flanked since I prefer to attack over more open terrain as a general rule.
Of course, to be fair, I usually don't use Sam Archers a lot in offensive battles either, but I still find them to be at least more useful than arq/musket troops.
True enough, though you can take them into an offensive engagement if you deploy in a defensive formation. You need a very cautious advance, moving from one defensive position to the next. The key is to lure the enemy to attack your formation. You can get some massive kills because the enemy believes it can take on your Ashigaru units and win easily. If you were to deploy with lots of monks and other Samurai, the AI often retreats without a blow exchanged/shot fired.
I for one, prefer some aspects of the AI in STW over the improved MTW AI. I find that the enemy make more use of the high ground and woods in STW especially.
ReluctantSamurai
07-17-2009, 13:32
I use musket teppo fairly often while on the attack. I would generally have only one or two as opposed to three or four for a defensive engagement. The trick is to be patient in how you deploy them.
In a defensive battle I generally have them deployed to the front with supporting infantry slightly overlapping them in front or behind, or in a hedge-hog formation. On the attack I keep them tucked safely away behind other units until the main lines are engaged. I then rush them forward to get off a quick volley (particularly if an enemy unit has an exposed flank) and retreat them to reload. This is particularly effective out on the flanks where cavalry are engaged. I try to bait enemy cav to chase my CA who will run through a teppo unit in loose formation. When the CA have passed through the teppo, I have them close formation and fire. The CA will wheel around and charge and with another (or two) of my own cav charging from the flanks, it doesn't take long to rout that unit if they haven't already routed from musket fire at point-blank range:beam:
Muskets are very useful for attacking bridges, as well. Line them up (two lines instead of the standard three) on your side of the bank.....send infantry across to get enemy units to approach the bridge, and fire away. Yes, you get friendly fire this way but after your own unit(s) rout you get several volleys into the enemy rear as they retreat back to their positions. Often this is enough to get them to rout.
My favorite "bridge-buster" army (when I am using some of the fantasy units) consists of three or four musket, several kensei, and bfn. It's a lot of fun (as opposed to the dread one usually has when attacking a bridge) to watch:laugh4:
Togakure
07-18-2009, 01:14
I use teppos on the offensive also, but never more than two in an army. I'm not too concerned about the actually kills they get: their real value is the severe morale penalty they can inflict from a distance. At the right time against the right enemies, guns are one of the best chain rout tools in the bag.
Hello,
Lots of good comments here re Bridge battles.
Re moving troops :
I have had this problem too, but not at bridges usually. I find the units sometimes seem to feel they should be elsewhere without good cause. Sometimes they attack without orders. Those that move elsewhere are usually as well spaced as the other units. Those that attack seem to have failed some kind of "test" and attack even though they were not shown as impetuous ( and it should be noted that any troops that ARE impetuous do not attack ).
Those attacking without orders are ( IMHO ) have clearly failed a "test" of some kind. Impetuous units probably have a greater chance of failing this test than non-impetuous units but results can vary. On the other hand, this problem and the other one ( title subject etc. ) may be down to the AI program trying to give itself some help in winning! I often find that the AI launches attacks on the flank opposite to that where the troops moved or attacked whilst I am re positioning my units etc. !
The Troop Movement problem also occurs when you line up your units too near to the edge of the map or the set up "disc", so you should take care here also.
Re Bridge battles :
I find the best way to fight is to encourage the enemy onto the Bridge and fight him there! Missile unit are placed to take advantage of this and should target those units joining the Melee rather than those in combat with your troops ( this cuts down self inflicted losses ). Note that the range of Teppo units is not much different than that of bows, so place them as bows. Encourage him on by attacking with Yari Ashigaru units, which will rout (!) and get him to follow. Then engage with Naginata ON the bridge. Support these with the same units as the AI throws in and when the enemy breaks send in the cavalry to persue and get as many units as possible over to support. If he attacks with Yari cavalry, counter it with Yari Samurai. Only use your General unit if things are not going well , and always after you have used your No-Dachi , Warrior Monks and/or Heavy Cavalry to stem the tide.
Allowing the enemy to cross a bridge before engaging can lose you the battle unless you can restrict it to one unit only; so it is NOT recommended. The enemy morale seems to rise if they can cross the river and ( it seems ), will eventually fall if they fail to cross.
Originally posted by Martok
You just highlighted what is -- for me, at least -- a key limitation on ashi teppo units: I only truly find them useful in defensive battles. When attacking, I almost never employ them at all. Their range is too short, and can be too easily flanked since I prefer to attack over more open terrain as a general rule.
The key to use teppos offensively is to set them in front of the melee line (yaris/nodachis/naginatas/wariormonks interspersed ie YS-WM-YS-WM-YS say) and when ready group them all and move them at once in running speed from where they stand to in range of the enemy. This means that the teppos will all together start to fire with the melee line behind them and also that most likely you'll take the first shot at the enemy teppos. This is often crucial because the advantage in men in teppo duels "mushrooms" quickly - a small initial difference may become large quickly.
If the enemy retreats, they'll take casualties and when out of range repeat.
If the enemy stays where they are just shoot them to pieces; teppos get backshots, that is any bullet that doesnt hit anything in continues until it does hit a man a tree or the ground, so melee troops behind the teppos may fall. This is why its best to have your melee troops some distance behind your teppo line while a missile duel goes on.
If the enemy moves his melee line or cavalry to engage your teppos, move your melee line at once and as a whole/grouped at walking speed (ordering charge the last few metres before engaging each unit individually) to meet them and try to time the engagement to take place in front of your teppo troops. In this way you maximise the distance the enemy has to run, the teppo casualties they'll take until they meet your melee line and also you tip the outnumbering morale penalties in your favor as the melee will take place closer to your army. In addition while the melee goes on, any kills the teppos make (they dont have to be many, even one may be enough) will put further morale penalties on the enemy melee troops and so your chances to win the main melee engagement are further increased (and yes teppos can make such kills while shooting right behind your engaged melee troops).
Once the enemy breaks, let the cavalry, no dachis, warrior monks and yari ashigaru loose, or better still just have some cavalry come at the rear by then; total massacre :2thumbsup:
edit1; its best to use the excellent grouping feeatures ie select units from cards or battlemap using control and mouse select and then group using control+shift+number and recall with control+number. You can have subgroups that are subgroups of a set group or subgroups that extend accross two set groups. The system is very flexible; usually can do say 1; missiles, 2; melee, 3;light horse, 4;heavy horse, 5;taisho(general). There's no need to set a group for all as you can always control+all and then g which selects and then groups all. During action the numbered groups can be used to split the all group appropriately. Also remember that grouped units will march in formation ie maintaining the initial distances. You can rotate with alt+rightclick point to where you want your unit/group to face.
edit2; aggressive use of teppo has less chances to succeed if the defender has sloping ground at his favor with equal number of missiles or simply more missiles. In such a case, the same maneuver should be used only now the attacker (you) should make the melee attack, while using the teppo as a screen for the melee troops until the latter can get close to the enemy ranks. Cavalry and melee balance of power between the armies also play a part; if the attacker has more cavalry the whole may be combined with a cavalry flanking maneuver or if having a melee superiority with an infantry flanking maneuver. Such maneuvers should aim to hit the enemy ranks simultaneously from two directions -ideally sandwich them- in order to maximise the flanking morale penalties to achieve rout and massacre. If it happens that the defender has equality-superiory in missiles, melee and cavalry either baite some units off in a skirmish to try and get an advantage or consider withdrawing.
ReluctantSamurai
10-09-2009, 16:42
Allowing the enemy to cross a bridge before engaging can lose you the battle unless you can restrict it to one unit only; so it is NOT recommended. The enemy morale seems to rise if they can cross the river and ( it seems ), will eventually fall if they fail to cross.
DEB8: good advice given but I cannot agree with the above statement.
My tactics in defending a bridge almost always encourage the enemy to cross en-masse. This maximizes the impact of morale reducing fire from my teppo as the enemy advances into my V or horseshoe-shaped formation. Enemy units will have to turn one way or the other and thereby expose the flanks or rear of their formation.
When enough units have crossed over the bridge, I can snap shut their escape route back across the bridge using fast-moving flank units, and destroy many units outright without having to chase. It's also the best way, IMHO, to entice the enemy taisho to cross the bridge to rally his faltering troops, thereby giving me a much better chance at killing him.
Any morale boost the enemy might receive for crossong the river (do they really get this or am I missing something?) is totally negated by flank or rear attacks.
Of course tactics may vary depending on whether it's early in a campaign when you can easily 'stuff' a crossing attempt right at the bridge, or later when you have more and varied units to work with.
Just my 2cents, of course.............................
My tactics in defending a bridge almost always encourage the enemy to cross en-masse. This maximizes the impact of morale reducing fire from my teppo as the enemy advances into my V or horseshoe-shaped formation. Enemy units will have to turn one way or the other and thereby expose the flanks or rear of their formation.
No logical reason why this will not work IF you have enough units ( missile and non-missile ) to closely defend the bridge. However, the more that cross, the harder the defence becomes. Personally, I tend not to purchase lots of Teppo ( as the AI likes wet weather when I do ), so I tend to rely on mainly Archers. Teppo also tend to retreat too quickly when attacked, as do the Archers if you put them at the front.
When enough units have crossed over the bridge, I can snap shut their escape route back across the bridge using fast-moving flank units, and destroy many units outright without having to chase. It's also the best way, IMHO, to entice the enemy taisho to cross the bridge to rally his faltering troops, thereby giving me a much better chance at killing him.
This depends on the way the river runs by the bridge. Sometimes the river's position blocks flanking moves on one side. This also requires allowing dangerous amounts of units to cross and gain a lot of ground. Getting these "fast" units though to the front of the battle can be very difficult too. Note that my method usually attracts the Taisho in anyway, for much the same reason as your method.
Any morale boost the enemy might receive for crossong the river (do they really get this or am I missing something?) is totally negated by flank or rear attacks.
In my games they always seem to fight better when a "bridge-head" is establised. It certainly adds to "my" morale when I can achieve this, as for the game units who knows! I agree this will be more than negated by your method IF it is "pulled off".
Of course, as you seem to have perfected your tactics, you will continue to use them. They may, however, be rather difficult for a "newby" to employ. Mine (to me ), seem easier and they work ( for me ) too.
ReluctantSamurai
10-10-2009, 15:23
I tend not to purchase lots of Teppo ( as the AI likes wet weather when I do ), so I tend to rely on mainly Archers.
I never waste koku on the arquebus and go straight for muskets which can still fire in all but the most severe weather. Sure, they get less kills, but it's the morale impact that's key. (and btw, weather is one element that is modeled better in Shogun than any other in the TW series, IMO. compare the thunderstorm at the start of the historical Okehazama battle with a battle during one in RTW, for instance:inquisitive:...one has to plan according to the seasons). I will typically have no more than four teppo in a defensive army, and no more than two in an attacking one.
Teppo also tend to retreat too quickly when attacked, as do the Archers if you put them at the front
Teppo are cheap, and if I occasionally get a unit caught by a cavalry charge, there's plenty more where they came from. I also favor training teppo in Owari and Tosa (when I finally acquire them) for the ashi honor bonus which helps reduce routing. Also, I usually put them in "Hold Position" and "Hold Formation" which also helps. My favorite tactic with teppo involves luring enemy cavalry to charge a teppo unit (in two lines instead of the usual three, fire-at-will is off). I use a CA as bait, and when the enemy cav gets close enough, I send the CA through the teppo who then get off a full volley at close range and then retreat behind the CA, who by this time close formation and charge what's left of the enemy unit. If assisted by another cavalry unit attacking from flank, only a very high honor unit will stay to fight.
This depends on the way the river runs by the bridge. Sometimes the river's position blocks flanking moves on one side.
Agreed. Sometimes that is the case.
I agree this will be more than negated by your method IF it is "pulled off".
Of course, as you seem to have perfected your tactics, you will continue to use them.
From my recent Nobunaga's Ambition Campaign (Oda 1580, expert level):
https://imgcash2.imageshack.us/Himg179/scaled.php?server=179&filename=112tt1.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480
https://imgcash3.imageshack.us/Himg120/scaled.php?server=120&filename=136go0.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480
It's really not that difficult to pull off and the results can be staggering to an opponent.
But, as you say, everyone has their own way, and if that works, then so much the better:2thumbsup:
I never waste koku on the arquebus and go straight for muskets which can still fire in all but the most severe weather.
I agree re the arquebus. Don't like the Catholic priests anyway - inbuilt from watching Shogyn on TV! I have played mainly on STW rather than STW (WE) so far, so rain has ALWAYS been a problem.
weather is one element that is modeled better in Shogun than any other in the TW series, ... one has to plan according to the seasons). I will typically have no more than four teppo in a defensive army, and no more than two in an attacking one.
If the enemy have lots of Teppo I attack in Spring or Autumn, If I have several I attack in Summer ( if I can ). As I like Cavalry I rarely attack in Winter, but I like it when an AI army with Cavalry does!!
Also, I usually put them in "Hold Position" and "Hold Formation" which also helps
I've picked up on that lately. It's more useful with Samurai Archers though ( I find ).
My favorite tactic with teppo involves luring enemy cavalry to charge a teppo unit (in two lines instead of the usual three, fire-at-will is off). I use a CA as bait, and when the enemy cav gets close enough, I send the CA through the teppo who then get off a full volley at close range and then retreat behind the CA, who by this time close formation and charge what's left of the enemy unit.
Nice idea. I haven't used a screen ( like that ) yet.
ReluctantSamurai
I tried out your bridge defence plans in two battles today and won twice.
I noted that the AI troops ( in my games ), tended to attack parts of the "line" rather than most of it, limiting the effects of the Teppo units and minimising the abilities of the "fast" units ( I used Yari Cavalry & No-Dachi ), to attack the flanks or rear of the enemy. It also proved impossible to cut off most of the enemy from the bridge, and one battle became an "on the bridge" battle after the "Taisho less" enemy rallied. Suprisingly a lot of my Yari units remained completely un-engaged, so I could have had a smaller army than the enemy, and still have won.
Therefore, it appears; your plan works reasonably well ( contrary to my reservations ). My previous posted recommendation to only allow one enemy unit at the most to cross the bridge was indeed incorrect. Apologies. :embarassed:
I also note that AI has 4 major problems in trying to use this plan itself :
1 .It always "draws up" in a line, rather than in the required curve.
2. It "fires" at you too soon to effect any kind of a trap by drawing you in.
3. It attacks too soon with its units to effect any kind of a trap by drawing you in.
4. It attacks frontally rather than in the flanks.
It's just as well, otherwise we would never capture a bridge province ourselves! :laugh4:
ReluctantSamurai
10-11-2009, 13:28
No apologies necessary, mate! As you said, everyone has their way of doing things, and whatever works for you is a good plan.
My way does require some good timing (ie. much micro-managing) but as you saw from my screenies, can be devastating. I use a 'creep' method against multiple stacks. I stand off a bit from the bridge for the first wave allowing large numbers of enemy troops to cross before giving them a good dose of fire. When this first wave has been destroyed, I move closer to the bridge to allow my teppo to fire on troops as they are crossing, yet staying out of range of enemy archers and teppo. I then use my cav to cross over to chase off any remaining archers before the next wave hits.
limiting the effects of the Teppo units and minimising the abilities of the "fast" units
As you noted, some bridge provinces have quirky bends, and I might add, random dips in terrain in front of your position that can affect teppo placement. I've played enough in every bridge province to know just where to place teppo for greatest effect, so it does take some micro-managing.
Suprisingly a lot of my Yari units remained completely un-engaged, so I could have had a smaller army than the enemy, and still have won.
I never deploy my entire army at the bridge, especially against a multiple-stack invasion. At most, I deploy three archers (and keep two in reserve if I have them) and about half of my infantry. Cavalry is deployed to the flanks with one unit (and my Daimyo if he's involved) kept dead-center on the bridge behind my Yari. These are for chasing off enemy archers once they've lost their infantry support. If you look closely at my screenies you can see a fair amount of kills stretching away from the bridge on the enemy side. Those are mainly the enemy archers. Keeping fresh units available is important for long battles where fatigue becomes a factor. That second screenie in Mikawa was from a battle that took almost two hours to resolve (obviously I play with the timer off) and you'll notice my two musket units are not on the field for the ending.......they ran out of ammo so I withdrew them:dizzy2:
It's just as well, otherwise we would never capture a bridge province ourselves!
Indeed! I always try for the crappiest weather possible to minimize enemy archer fire, and sometimes it will take several attempts to wear down enemy forces before you can take a heavily defended bridge.
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