What ordonnance for what situation? [Archive]

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Peasant Phill

07-09-2009, 11:46

I've never been good with arty. In fact the only times I get decent kills or morale effect is when I use horse arty. In spite of that I still use them extensively just to get the right feel of battles of that era.

I've read a lot of guides but most lack in extensive guidelines on the use of different ordonnances. And now v1.3 has changed the different ordonnances.

So what would you use in what situation?

thurjack_mahr

07-09-2009, 14:41

I usually use the high explosive percussion rounds for the howitzers. Pre-patch they seemed to be the only thing worth using... post patch, I still haven't tried the other types to see if the quicklime worked out.

For the cannons, I like the sharpnal shot... it can "overshoot" it's range by quite a bit, giving you a huge edge over anyone else. (is this intentional? or something that will be fixed in a patch?)

I have noticed that the regular ball shot - the standard - has gotten better since the patch. What they need to do is to stop the overshot ability for anything but the ball shot to make ball viable.

Prussian to the Iron

07-09-2009, 14:49

well, theres no immediate guidlines, but ill try:

mortars are pretty much useless until you can get them to a decent experience level (3-4), so keep them firing in your armies, in conjunction with some other arty.

howitzers are typically very accurate, but i don't think they can get quicklime. not sure, but i think.

foot artillery are usually straight-firing, so you may want to keep them on hills. if you have them on a higher hill, then canister is much more effective; it doest hit your own men.

horse artillery is usually accurate, but against forts its crap, and the shots hardly hit more than a couple enemy.

canister shot is best used only when the cannons are uphill.

quicklime/other quicklime-like shot is best used when the unit is standing still. otherwise, it will almost always miss.

explosive/percussion cap shells are best used against enemy artillery first, and then marching troops. they are good all-round, but they are the only effective shot that gets marching troops in my experience.

shrapnel shot is my bestest friend when you get it! just think: the accuracy and range of roundshot, but that explodes and rains shrapnel down on the enemy! oh, sweet, sweet shrapnel shot........

Daveybaby

07-09-2009, 15:48

quicklime/other quicklime-like shot is best used when the unit is standing still. otherwise, it will almost always miss.
But when it hits... oh boy.

Against large armies quicklime can be devastating, 4 units of mortars will rain down enough quicklime that you will get plenty of hits, even with low accuracy.

Prussian to the Iron

07-09-2009, 15:51

i usually have 4-6 mortars, its just the fact that the A.I. almost always just melees; whether the army is made of militia or guards, they always melee. it gets quite annoying.

if they stood still in shooting formation, then id have more fun annhilating them with quicklime.

Slaists

07-09-2009, 17:40

well, theres no immediate guidlines, but ill try:

mortars are pretty much useless until you can get them to a decent experience level (3-4), so keep them firing in your armies, in conjunction with some other arty.

howitzers are typically very accurate, but i don't think they can get quicklime. not sure, but i think.

1. Howitzers do get quicklime.

foot artillery are usually straight-firing, so you may want to keep them on hills. if you have them on a higher hill, then canister is much more effective; it doest hit your own men.

horse artillery is usually accurate, but against forts its crap, and the shots hardly hit more than a couple enemy.

canister shot is best used only when the cannons are uphill.

2. Hills are actually bad for straight artillery; the best situation for straight artillery is either a level field or the bottom of a shallow valley where one can expect the enemy to show up on the edge. ETW straight artillery behaves really weird shooting downhill.

3. Don't put straight artillery on a hill BEHIND your troops. That's the least efficient way of using them. Rather, integrate straight artillery into the line! Here is an excellent guide (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=238822&highlight=royal+artillery) for doing that.

4. Put howitzers and alike on a hill behind your lines. The hills supposedly give them extra line of sight and increased accuracy.

Xipe Totec

07-09-2009, 18:45

My favourite artillery tactic is to use a group of howitzers firing carcass or better still quicklime. Target the ground just in front of units behind walls or just in front of an occupied building. Casualties inside buildings are especially impressive: I routed a full unit of line infantry yesterday with the first volley of 5 howitzer batteries shooting carcass. It is less accurate post-patch 1.3, but still gets the job done in a massed volley. Also very effective if you fire at a unit walking parallel to the line of your army: one howitzer volley of carcass can destroy a line infantry unit in that case.

Once I get howitzers large battles are all about winning with artillery and taking minimal casualties. The infantry guards the front and I prefer curassiers to guard the rear and flanks. Devastating artillery barrages force the enemy to charge my lines even when outgunned. This always results in them being shot to pieces by my infantry which is ready for 3 volleys as soon as they arrive. Lots of chevrons all round for the infantry means they just get more accurate and faster at reloading.

Percussion shells make howitzers utterly devastating. I don't like mortars because they are now so innacurate you can sit there for hours waiting to hit something. Some factions e.g. Marathas can't get howitzers though so you have to live with it. Ottomans get large howitzers early which are even better, but their infantry suck for most of the game.

The early exploding shell shot is good at the right range, especially against cavalry and a group of infantry units in one area. It fails at long range however as the shells mostly explode prematurely above the target. If only they would learn to use longer fuses! At some point advancing infantry 'gets under the radar' and is too close for howitzers or mortars to hit at all. Let the muskets do the job and target something else.

Zenicetus

07-09-2009, 19:49

Lots of good information posted here.

Depending on how much I feel like micro'ing the artillery in a battle, I might just use only roundshot to keep things simple, where I can spend more time steering cavalry around. Any artillery hit reduces morale on enemy units, so there's a suppresive effect even if you're not making many direct kills.

If I do feel like some micro for the direct-fire artillery, I'll set them spaced along gaps in the battle line (no troops in front), with a guard unit of infantry at the rear of each artillery unit. That way I can use roundshot at long range, then switch to canister as the enemy battle line advances to short range, without worrying about blasting my own guys in the back of the head. At the last minute, I have the guarding infantry run forward in front of the guns to prevent an overrun. Hopefully (but not always), the gun crew will have obeyed the cease fire order when the infantry steps forward.:sweatdrop: When it works, and when the enemy AI cooperates by marching forward in a cohesive battle line, it's fun to watch.

Prussian to the Iron

07-09-2009, 21:15

1. Howitzers do get quicklime.

2. Hills are actually bad for straight artillery; the best situation for straight artillery is either a level field or the bottom of a shallow valley where one can expect the enemy to show up on the edge. ETW straight artillery behaves really weird shooting downhill.

3. Don't put straight artillery on a hill BEHIND your troops. That's the least efficient way of using them. Rather, integrate straight artillery into the line! Here is an excellent guide (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=238822&highlight=royal+artillery) for doing that.

4. Put howitzers and alike on a hill behind your lines. The hills supposedly give them extra line of sight and increased accuracy.

wow, i find some great tactics in that guide! especially the 'V' formation thx!:beam::2thumbsup:

Tillan

07-10-2009, 11:23

al Roumi

07-10-2009, 15:45

A few cents from me:

I prefer to use cav to guard the cannon in the line - you are most likely to be hit here by enemy cavalry anyway, not to mention the fact that your "guard" unit needs to be able to move fast to protect the gun crew.

I find microing an army with more than 2 batteries a bit of a nightmare as i don't like to pause too much. An decent work around (if you are offered it) is to dig in and defend with prepared defences. The breastworks limit the firing range of your guns -meaning they won't do crazy stuff like firing cannister into your units. It does means round shot loses some effectiveness (because you can't always shoot the best spot), but you can use cannister with more confidence when the lines meet. The V formation is of course essential to providing your dug in batteries with cover.

And another thing, everyone who waxes lyrical about shrapnel and percussion shells is IMO missing the point. You've already won the game (or should have!) by the time you get those techs. Real skill and tips should be on how to use Demi cannons and 12lber infantry guns as these are the ones on which your empire cuts its teeth. It's no use hanging around untill you get shrapnel to start having serious battles...

Slaists

07-10-2009, 15:59

And another thing, everyone who waxes lyrical about shrapnel and percussion shells is IMO missing the point. You've already won the game (or should have!) by the time you get those techs. Real skill and tips should be on how to use Demi cannons and 12lber infantry guns as these are the ones on which your empire cuts its teeth. It's no use hanging around untill you get shrapnel to start having serious battles...

An excellent point! I usually get shrapnel and percussion by around 1780'something. By that time: who gives a ... :laugh4:
Shrapnel and percussion are for multiplayer or custom battles. Maybe they'll become useful in the campaign if/when CA comes out with the Napoleonic era expansion.
The same applies to first rates (for me).

Tillan

07-10-2009, 16:19

My post only involves cannister/round shot on a swedish campaign. Normal Unit sizes.

alh, what does you army normally consist of, how do you use it with your artillery?

al Roumi

07-10-2009, 17:06

Firstly, my experience is almost exclusively limited to the grand campaign. I don't usually use a huge ammount of arty either, generally using only 3 units in a full stack army. That would be 2 cannon and 1 howitzer or maybe (but rarely) a puckle, mortar or rocket unit.

My stacks are generaly infantry/cavalry heavy. I usually take 6 units of line, 2 of grenadiers, at least 4 of cav and up to 2 of light inf.

As to battle tactics, one thing to note is that the AI seems to react differently to you depending on what arty you have. E.g. if you have long range arty and can score hits on the enemy, they will almost certainly move to attack you line. This can be useful if they have a lot of arty themselves as you can easier avoid it or deal with the army in individual chunks with concentrated/overwhelming force.

I find cannister great but hard to get more than 1 or 2 volleys off before the unit is either charged or shot at -in either case it needs to get out of the front line!

Cuirassiers (or any med/heavy non-lancer cav) are the ideal foot battery guard unit. I'd strongly advise against using or putting a line inf unit with fire at will on behind a battery or your gun crew will take casualties from friendly fire.

I've experimented (prior to v1.3 mostly) with flanking horse arty but i find them still too slow to mount up and thus in need of guard units. That round shot is better in v1.3 may mean that they can better flank and fire the (engaged) enemy line from a distance, without becoming a target for much attention themselves. Dragoons and light infantry are a good escort -just be careful not to split too many troops from the main body or you will enfeeble it.

As to taking out enemy guns, the best is light infantry. Bow equiped Amerinds are good as they can sneak, and any light inf in "loose" formation will last longer.

Always put cannon in the front line once you have developed cannister shot.

If you are umming and ahing about how much inf or arty to bring, think which is more flexible and durable.

Zenicetus

07-10-2009, 18:14

I started using the V formation a little while ago, it really is pretty good. 2/3 shots of cannister, combined with a few volleys of musket fire in different directions mean Ive never had an enemy AI unit reach my guns. Even in the one time they decided to charge my guns on mass.

(snip)
The howitzers I more or less let shoot at what they want, but the foot artillery needs lots of micro managing, leaving fire at will on inevitably means that they will turn around and start shooting up the line around them, trying to aim for fleeing enemy units that have decided the best way out is to travel at right angles to my line.

I like that V formation idea, but it does have the disadvantage of putting your infantry line a bit more at risk from idiot gun crews, compared to straight line formation.

Another disadvantage is the way it shortens the length of your overall battle line, which reduces the opportunities for envelopment. I like a nice envelopment when I can pull it off. Also the AI doesn't always cooperate and march right into the killing zone of the "V." Still, it's a neat idea when it works just right.

I find cannister great but hard to get more than 1 or 2 volleys off before the unit is either charged or shot at -in either case it needs to get out of the front line!

The "V" idea does have an advantage there. An approaching unit will take fire from the V before they get in range to shoot at your artillery, which should either stop and force them to engage the line infantry, or at least take heavy losses before they reach the gun position. Again though, it depends on the AI cooperating and marching down the funnel. And that "V" isn't easy to move and re-position if the enemy marches in from a direction you're not expecting.

Cuirassiers (or any med/heavy non-lancer cav) are the ideal foot battery guard unit. I'd strongly advise against using or putting a line inf unit with fire at will on behind a battery or your gun crew will take casualties from friendly fire.

Yeah, when I have a guard infantry unit behind the artillery in the line, it's always with fire at will off.

As to taking out enemy guns, the best is light infantry. Bow equiped Amerinds are good as they can sneak, and any light inf in "loose" formation will last longer.

I prefer cavalry for silencing enemy artillery. The guns can't retarget fast enough against cav to defend themselves, so the cav never takes a hit. The AI now defends its artillery better since 1.3, usually with a cav unit. So I send out two cav units to take out artillery -- one to pull off the defender, the other to take out the artillery. The artillery unit breaks and routs very quickly after a charge. As soon as it routs, I now have two calvary units to handle the defending enemy cav, and that usually doesn't last long.

I like the idea of sneaking Indians or skirmishers through the woods for an assault, just for variety, but using cavalry is a really fast way to silence the guns. Also a skirmisher or light infantry will have a harder time handling an enemy cavalry unit defending the gun position.

Cheetah

07-10-2009, 23:09

This is what I do, I use demi-cannons two per each army. Canister helps a lot.

Deploy your main line facing the enemy. So far so good. :laugh4: Push one flank a bit forward (I do it with the right), this will be the gun flank. The idea is to position your cannons so that they can give a flanking fire to the enemy troops engaged in shooting with your main line. Of course you have to protect them. I use line infantry (ofc guards are fine too), basically I use my line infantry as a sliding door.

Before battle:

............................................................... -sk-
...........................................................-sk-
.........................................................-L-
.................................................-G-G-
*insert left flank here* -L-L-L-L-L- -L-L-

During battle:

..................................................-E-E-.....-sk-
...........................................................-sk-
...................................-E-E-E-E-..-L-L-L-
.................................................-G-G-
*insert left flank here* -L-L-L-L-L-

Left flank can be anything. L: infantry of line, G: guns, sk:skirmishers, E: enemy. Right flank is deployed oblique to the main line. When the enemy gets close I move up the line inf to close the door in front of the guns.
I have to add that the BAI is not completely dumb, in all battles it attacked my right flank more heavily then it did my left, so prepare to defend your guns. You might lose them to small arms fire even with infantry in front of them but given that these are just demi-cannons IMO it worth the trade. For example last night I got 116 kills with a cannon deployed in this manner (I had canister) and lost 12 men from the crew. Not bad IMO. Ofc after the battle I could refill the crew.

Prussian to the Iron

07-11-2009, 04:08

i prefer the 'V' formation.

the best way to use it is to have 3 units of line infantry per arty position. basically, you put 1/3 of your infantry facing perfect straight, then 2/3 loking slightly inward to help protect arty.

Tillan

07-12-2009, 13:01

Another disadvantage is the way it shortens the length of your overall battle line, which reduces the opportunities for envelopment. I like a nice envelopment when I can pull it off. Also the AI doesn't always cooperate and march right into the killing zone of the "V." Still, it's a neat idea when it works just right.
Thats the major dissadvantage as far as I can see, yes the guns in a V do have a tendency to shoot up your line, but I dont mind the micro manage involved in stopping that. However, if you are trying ensure there are no survivors that will pillage your lands after the battle, an envelopment is the best way to go. The V doesn't really allow that.
While it is true the AI doesnt always cooperate in running down the funnel, this tends not to matter *to* much, as I mainly use it as a way of protecting the guns, while ensuring they can fire as much as possible. So long as the AI doesnt outflank me, its all good.

Slaists

07-12-2009, 15:26

Thats the major dissadvantage as far as I can see, yes the guns in a V do have a tendency to shoot up your line, but I dont mind the micro manage involved in stopping that. However, if you are trying ensure there are no survivors that will pillage your lands after the battle, an envelopment is the best way to go. The V doesn't really allow that.
While it is true the AI doesnt always cooperate in running down the funnel, this tends not to matter *to* much, as I mainly use it as a way of protecting the guns, while ensuring they can fire as much as possible. So long as the AI doesnt outflank me, its all good.

Integrating the guns in a straight line (option # 5 in the formation list) seems to work well too, at least for me and especially in situations when I have more than 2 artillery crews (which is quite rare). It's easier to change the facing of such line than the one of the V formation too.

Speaking of the V formation, there is something about the offensive BAI that allows it to exploit its nag for flanking easily.

Put your army in a formation like this:

|\a_a/|

"a" is for arty, |'s are for line infantry.

For better counter-BAI efficiency, extend the vertical |'s to two units rather than one.

For some weird reason, if the AI faces this formation, it seems to forget about flanking and heads dead center... While it does that, the vertical I's can be "fanned out" for better envelopment.

Prussian to the Iron

07-13-2009, 05:18

??? so, you want 2/5 of line infantry facing sideways rather than keeping up fire on the line? ive almost never had a flanknig maneuver by the a.i. with anything but cavalry, and then some infantry if they succeed.

it seems much more practical to have those 2 side units facing on a shallow angle, so they can easily turn, but can also fire on the line.

Peasant Phill

07-14-2009, 09:43

I feel we're getting off topic towards artillary placement instead of ordonnance use.

Basicly I had something like this in mind:

Direct fire: use roundshot unles enemy close then grapeshot unles enemy in column in front of your gun.

Arching fire: use ... unles ... unles ....

resonantblue

07-14-2009, 20:49

Round shot - use it against bulidings and only when nothing else is in range (it has a longer range than any other type of shell). Round shot is also quite effective if the AI ever gets all its units into a smaller area/ball while moving... round shot will tear through them better than anything else. Also, if you are playing a mod that improves accuracy, round shot on the flank of an infantry regiment/line can be devastating... unlike shrapnel round will go right through as many men as you can put up in front of it. I had one round shot shell wipe out almost half of a full strength infantry regiment - take out most of 2 ranks in one go. On default/vanilla accuracy, I find it's usually better to use shrapnel shot.

Shrapnel shot - if you don't have a large mass of troops bunched together at long range, use shrapnel.

Cannister - should be the choice of shot whenever enemy units are in its short range. One salvo can tear a full strength infantry regiment to shreds.

As has been pointed out, if you're using foot or horse artillery, the best way to use them is to integrate them into your line or otherwise give them clear lines of side from the flanks - horse artillery is especially useful for this as they can change positions quickly. My main field army only uses horse artillery. In my current grand campaign my main field army only has 1 artillery battery (I limit the size of my stacks to increase the challenge) and it's a horse artillery battery - experience level 7 and I'm in the 1730s. You can probably imagine how many men it had to kill to get to that experience level in spite of the occasional casualties.

For howitzers/mortars, I'm not a huge fan. I basically only ever use them in my one specialized siege assault/defence stack. But:

Round - only use it against hardened targets like buildings or walls or if nothing else is in range. The bounce makes round shot kind of pointless to attack troops.

Quicklime / Percussive / Explosive etc - honestly I can't tell the difference in effectiveness, but given that I don't use the howitzer/mortar family that often I'd defer to the opinions of others. I just know that explosive seems to really suck.

Tillan

07-15-2009, 09:43

Explosive Ive found to work relatively well (certainly better then round against troops) The problems with Howitzers is they arnt very accurate at extreme range, and there even more inaccurate at close range.
Mortars I havnt really used, same with percussive and explosive ammunition, so I cant really comment on them, but the key to getting use out of your howitzers is positioning, so that you can keep them firing as long as possible at the best range. You cant throw them to far back behind your line, otherwise enemy troops coming towards you will only be in best firing range for a brief amount of time, at the same time you cant stick them to close to your front line for the same reason.
Just think about the kind of battle your expecting, and where you expect the enemy to stick around the longest.

But yes, in a field battle, with direct fire I switch on round shot at the beginning, making sure i know the limits of shrapnel, and switch over to shrapnel asap. For my howitzers, typically i leave them on explosive (but as I say, I havnt unlocked the other types yet)

Slaists

07-15-2009, 14:22

But yes, in a field battle, with direct fire I switch on round shot at the beginning, making sure i know the limits of shrapnel, and switch over to shrapnel asap. For my howitzers, typically i leave them on explosive (but as I say, I havnt unlocked the other types yet)

Just curious, playing 2 turns per year, by what year do you have shrapnel?

Tillan

07-15-2009, 16:08

That was my mistake, meant to say Cannister. I havnt got shrapnel yet in my current campaign (between 1730 and 1740ish in a swedish campaign) Though i would bet the same holds true for Shrapnel.
This is a Grand Campaign, and is for all intents and purposes over (hold 25-30 regions, have broken the Russian, polish and Austrian armys that will allow me to take the rest of their territory's within the next 5 or so years (probably giving me 35-40 regions - N/N) and have done the same in india with the maratha (sp? - Mughal were already wiped out and Mysore are my protectorate - and causing plenty of problems for Maratha themselves).

I tend to put individual cannon advancements on a low priority, getting them as the last thing on the tech level. But Ive also put a high priority on the soldier side techs in general (fire by rank, square formation etc) so im not sure how much that balances things out. Anyway, its pretty certain I wont be getting shrapnel/quicklime or percussive before the game is so far finished that it would take a tactical genius to stop me (as opposed to the AI)

Prussian to the Iron

07-15-2009, 17:39

i love shrpanel, but for some reason i can never visually aproximate the terrain (which means that my cannons firing shrapnel always hit right in front of them in the ground)

Fisherking

07-15-2009, 17:43

Don’t waist money on Mortars anymore.

They have great difficulty hitting the battlefield. They need a target a bit larger than a fort!

What a load of dung that is!
:furious3:

Prussian to the Iron

07-15-2009, 21:40

lusted said they are increasing the accuracy, but im sure it wont be satisfactory. i liked it fine in 1.2.

btw: if you are using the Additional Units Add-on Mod (TWC), then you can mod the 8-inch european mortars to be as accurate as you want, without those pesky updates screwing it up.

Slaists

07-16-2009, 15:25

Don’t waist money on Mortars anymore.

They have great difficulty hitting the battlefield. They need a target a bit larger than a fort!

What a load of dung that is!
:furious3:

As I said somewhere else, the mortar/howitzer accuracy changes drastically (for the better) as one increases the unit size they play with. With ultra size units howitzers become quite deadly. Once that field is swarming with soldiers, the howitzer shot is likely to hit SOMEONE even if that someone is not the original target. On smaller unit sizes though, there is "too much empty space" and the efficiency of indirect guns goes down quite a bit. I do not play on ultra size btw, so I rarely use indirect guns.

On a different note, howitzers and mortars are quite useful despite their low accuracy (which is historically accurate, btw). I use them to 'squeeze' AI's flanks (by bombarding ground on the flanks) so the AI bunches up their troops in the middle where my direct guns can have a ball...

Prussian to the Iron

07-16-2009, 18:09

that is not true. i always play on highest unit sizes, and i still have trouble hitting anything but the ground behind them.

Slaists

07-16-2009, 19:06

that is not true. i always play on highest unit sizes, and i still have trouble hitting anything but the ground behind them.

Well, then try playing on a smaller unit size. I bet, it won't be ground 'behind them', but ground 'off the field' ;)

By the way, how do you do the targeting bit? You realize, you should never try to target units with artillery? Rather target the ground where you anticipate the unit to be. Or, the ground right in front of a unit if it's still.

Prussian to the Iron

07-16-2009, 21:38

tried that. didnt work.

Slaists

07-16-2009, 22:01

tried that. didnt work.

What do you mean, 'it didn't work'? You mean, you could hit MORE men when playing on smaller size? :skull:

Prussian to the Iron

07-17-2009, 01:18

no, i mean i tried manually selecting shots, but often they wont even shoot at it, and when they do, it misses.